Grenadier/Guntank Build Viable?

[tatszico]

Hey guys, pretty new to Pathfinder but I'm wanting to try and craft my own builds. Found a really neat build, but I don't quite know how it'll work in actuality since I'm not experienced with the game so if you guys can offer advice or changes, let me know! Here's what I have so far.

I was thinking of taking Alchemist to 4, and then dipping into Gun Tank at 5. Reason being is so I can get Explosive Missle discovery. My idea is that I'll be wearing medium armor (heavy would be too penalizing to for a lower STR character, wouldn't it? or should I got heavy) with a light/heavy shield. That way, I can survive close to mid range skirmishes and be able to output a single, powerful attack per turn (explosive missile + hybridized fire/acid alchemical weapon + bullet dmg to touch AC + deadly aim feat + next round fire dmg from alchemical weapon).

I'm a human, at level 1, with a 25 point buy. For my starting feat, I have point blank and precise shot. planning to get deadly aim too for when i dip into gun tank.

Another thought comes up...can I use the targeted bomb admixture extract with explosive missile on a bullet? :o

any other advice or changes that you guys have for me, and which feats i should pick up along the way? thanks in advance :)

[Geddy2112]

If you wanna do alchemy strapped, you are mechanically better going the siege gunner archetype over gun tank because the siege gunner uses INT to calculate grit vs wis, which you won't have as much of as an alchemist. That said, the class does not mix well with the alchemist or explosive missile otherwise. You can get the same amount of grit between 7 and 13 wis, but having a 14 would be handy. Alchemist and gunslinger are both weak will sv classes so you would not be dumping wis anyways.

Armor and encumbrance give similar penalties, but the problem is that you are going to have good dex cause you wanna throw/shoot bombs and you are throwing it down the drain by having med/heavy armor, so you are losing some bonus to AC(offset a bit from armor training). That said, strength won't matter after a few levels once you have a handy haversack. Mithral full plate and a handy haversack will be about all you can carry without hitting medium encumbrance, but in full plate you will already have worse penalties, so there is that.

Your feats are good, and yes you can use targeted bomb adamixture on explosive ammo.

For stats on a 25pt buy and the gun tank archetype, I would go
9/16/10/16/14/7 with your +2 in intelligence.

[tatszico]

If you wanna do alchemy strapped, you are mechanically better going the siege gunner archetype over gun tank because the siege gunner uses INT to calculate grit vs wis, which you won't have as much of as an alchemist. That said, the class does not mix well with the alchemist or explosive missile otherwise. You can get the same amount of grit between 7 and 13 wis, but having a 14 would be handy. Alchemist and gunslinger are both weak will sv classes so you would not be dumping wis anyways.

Armor and encumbrance give similar penalties, but the problem is that you are going to have good dex cause you wanna throw/shoot bombs and you are throwing it down the drain by having med/heavy armor, so you are losing some bonus to AC(offset a bit from armor training). That said, strength won't matter after a few levels once you have a handy haversack. Mithral full plate and a handy haversack will be about all you can carry without hitting medium encumbrance, but in full plate you will already have worse penalties, so there is that.

Your feats are good, and yes you can use targeted bomb adamixture on explosive ammo.

For stats on a 25pt buy and the gun tank archetype, I would go
9/16/10/16/14/7 with your +2 in intelligence.
thanks for ur input! i was thinking siege gunner as well but noticed that i couldn't work with it besides having int based grit. another option i thought about was pisteloro. but i don't know, something about wearing armor and having a shield while skirmishing the front lines and outputting a single, powerful explosive shot per round sounds enticing haha.

what do u think about going medium armor with a light/heavy shield? medium armor wouldn't affect my dex much, would it? if i'm sitting at 16, that would put me at +3 and if i remember correctly, a breastplate has a max dex of 3 anyway. and being an alchemist, i'm focusing on maxing int for the extra bomb damage so my dex would stay the same for awhile.

[Geddy2112]

thanks for ur input! i was thinking siege gunner as well but noticed that i couldn't work with it besides having int based grit. another option i thought about was pisteloro. but i don't know, something about wearing armor and having a shield while skirmishing the front lines and outputting a single, powerful explosive shot per round sounds enticing haha.

what do u think about going medium armor with a light/heavy shield? medium armor wouldn't affect my dex much, would it? if i'm sitting at 16, that would put me at +3 and if i remember correctly, a breastplate has a max dex of 3 anyway. and being an alchemist, i'm focusing on maxing int for the extra bomb damage so my dex would stay the same for awhile.

The problem with using a shield is that anything other than a buckler is going to occupy your hand, which you need to reload/make bombs/do alchemist stuff/etc. That said, you are an alchemist so you could just take the extra arm discovery. Another option would be a ring of force shield which leaves your hand free and is weightless. I actually had a guy in my group who was an alchemist in a previous campaign who had a 3rd arm with the ring shield. It cannot be enchanted, but it is off/on and weightless/a wall of force so trade off's. A pistol makes your life easier because it only requires one hand, using a rifle or something else would require growing 2 arms to reload and have a shield, but you could if you wanted. Alchemists have access to the spell extract shield, which is a +4 shield bonus to AC, which is going to beat out a heavy shield until you can get it to +3 enchantment or better and ties a nonmagical tower shield. This does require using the extract though. I figure in for a penny in for a pound, just get a tower shield and have your AC be bonkers-you take a -2 to attacks but you are up against touch AC....

A breastplate does have a max dex of 3, but you probably want to get a mithral one which increases the max dex to 5. Since you want dex to damage you wanna increase that number but I agree that the bomb is the workhorse. Hitting touch and having 5 levels of gunslinger's full BAB is going to offset it. You could get mithral full plate which also has a max dex bonus of 3, and be even more tanky. The other huge advantage of mithril is that it halves the weight of the armor. Of course, you get one extra dex from your armor training at gun tank 4.

I love the idea of being tough as nails and just point and click removing things from existence, and adding the pistelero up close and deadly is going to make you very good at doing so. Since you have the gun tank adds the ability to double down on fortification, I would take the alchemist discovery preserve organs to add another chance to negate crits/sneak attacks. It also unlocks the mummification discovery, giving you immunity to nonlethal damage, cold, sleep and paralysis.Once you are mummified you can cheese the extract ablative barrier, which basically gives you all day DR5/- because it converts lethal to nonlethal, and you are immune. At higher levels, extracts like resurgent transformation and twin form start to make things utterly silly.

Until you get a gun, you are going to proabbly want a light crossbow since you don't have enough strength to make use of a compound bow and will take damage penalty from neg strength. You get a free martial weapon from grenadier, I suggest the machette-it is decent, but also gives +1 to survival checks to get along in the wild. Plus you need some kind of martial weapon just in case. Another option is the pilum, which can negate the shield bonus of an enemy(not important to you but is a thing).

Don't overdo it on bomb specific discoveries. You want a couple for fire immune things and variety, but you don't need a bazillion, particularly since you won't be full alchemist. Frost bomb is one of the best because it staggers and it stacks with the staggering blast from the grenadier(in case your victim survives). Infusion is basically a feat/discovery tax, but you gotta take it. Improved initiative is never a bad feat if you need one. Tumor familiar is absolutely bonkers good, even though your gunslinger levels won't boost it. You can boon companion here and qualify for improved familiar, which is REALLY good. You need rapid reload as soon as you are using a gun since alchemical cartridges will make reloading a free action, but you won't need rapid shot since you are using explosive missile. I would still take deadly aim to increase your damage even more.

Honestly, you should just dip gunslinger a single level. 5 is a nice draw for dex to damage and some other things, but progressing your bombs and extracts is more important. The dip gets you heavy armor/tower shield prof, a gun, gun tank's resolve, 1d6 extra gun damage from pistol, grit, and some class skills. Spending 4 more levels to get dex to damage when you are not maxing dex and taking single shots is pointless. Your bombs increase by 1d6 every three levels. If you never get more than 16 dex (mithral full plate allowing a max dex +3) you are adding 3 damage to your shots from dex to damage...woo. Increase your int mod for more damage, have your full plate, shield, and extracts for AC, and hit touch because gun/bomb. Screw dex to damage.

So for feats/discovery/levels
1: Grenadier alchemist 1. Point blank shot(human bonus) Precise shot(1st level feat) Throw anything(alchemist bonus) Martial weapon prof(grenadier bonus)
2: grenadier alchemist 2. Precise bombs(grenadier bonus) Frost bombs discovery.
3: grenadier alchemist 3. Bonus discovery(feat): infusion
4: grenadier alchemist 4. Discovery- explosive missile
5: gun tank pistolero 1. Gunsmith/pistol proficency(bonus gunslinger), rapid reload(bonus feat)
6:grenadier alchemist 5. Discovery, vestigial arm
7: grenadier alchemist 6. Bonus discovery(feat) tumor familiar. Discovery-preserve organs.
8: grenadier alchemist 7.
9: grenadier alchemist 8. Discovery- bomb upgrade(dispelling, force, explosive, or blinding) bonus feat-improved familiar or improved initiative.
10: grenadier alchemist 9.
11: grenadier alchemist 10: discovery-mummification. Bonus feat-improved familiar, improved initiative, deadly aim.

At higher levels, grab a couple more of the bomb upgrades, eventually deadly aim/improved familiar and initiative and done.

[tatszico]

The problem with using a shield is that anything other than a buckler is going to occupy your hand, which you need to reload/make bombs/do alchemist stuff/etc. That said, you are an alchemist so you could just take the extra arm discovery. Another option would be a ring of force shield which leaves your hand free and is weightless. I actually had a guy in my group who was an alchemist in a previous campaign who had a 3rd arm with the ring shield. It cannot be enchanted, but it is off/on and weightless/a wall of force so trade off's. A pistol makes your life easier because it only requires one hand, using a rifle or something else would require growing 2 arms to reload and have a shield, but you could if you wanted. Alchemists have access to the spell extract shield, which is a +4 shield bonus to AC, which is going to beat out a heavy shield until you can get it to +3 enchantment or better and ties a nonmagical tower shield. This does require using the extract though. I figure in for a penny in for a pound, just get a tower shield and have your AC be bonkers-you take a -2 to attacks but you are up against touch AC....

A breastplate does have a max dex of 3, but you probably want to get a mithral one which increases the max dex to 5. Since you want dex to damage you wanna increase that number but I agree that the bomb is the workhorse. Hitting touch and having 5 levels of gunslinger's full BAB is going to offset it. You could get mithral full plate which also has a max dex bonus of 3, and be even more tanky. The other huge advantage of mithril is that it halves the weight of the armor. Of course, you get one extra dex from your armor training at gun tank 4.

I love the idea of being tough as nails and just point and click removing things from existence, and adding the pistelero up close and deadly is going to make you very good at doing so. Since you have the gun tank adds the ability to double down on fortification, I would take the alchemist discovery preserve organs to add another chance to negate crits/sneak attacks. It also unlocks the mummification discovery, giving you immunity to nonlethal damage, cold, sleep and paralysis.Once you are mummified you can cheese the extract ablative barrier, which basically gives you all day DR5/- because it converts lethal to nonlethal, and you are immune. At higher levels, extracts like resurgent transformation and twin form start to make things utterly silly.

Until you get a gun, you are going to proabbly want a light crossbow since you don't have enough strength to make use of a compound bow and will take damage penalty from neg strength. You get a free martial weapon from grenadier, I suggest the machette-it is decent, but also gives +1 to survival checks to get along in the wild. Plus you need some kind of martial weapon just in case. Another option is the pilum, which can negate the shield bonus of an enemy(not important to you but is a thing).

Don't overdo it on bomb specific discoveries. You want a couple for fire immune things and variety, but you don't need a bazillion, particularly since you won't be full alchemist. Frost bomb is one of the best because it staggers and it stacks with the staggering blast from the grenadier(in case your victim survives). Infusion is basically a feat/discovery tax, but you gotta take it. Improved initiative is never a bad feat if you need one. Tumor familiar is absolutely bonkers good, even though your gunslinger levels won't boost it. You can boon companion here and qualify for improved familiar, which is REALLY good. You need rapid reload as soon as you are using a gun since alchemical cartridges will make reloading a free action, but you won't need rapid shot since you are using explosive missile. I would still take deadly aim to increase your damage even more.

Honestly, you should just dip gunslinger a single level. 5 is a nice draw for dex to damage and some other things, but progressing your bombs and extracts is more important. The dip gets you heavy armor/tower shield prof, a gun, gun tank's resolve, 1d6 extra gun damage from pistol, grit, and some class skills. Spending 4 more levels to get dex to damage when you are not maxing dex and taking single shots is pointless. Your bombs increase by 1d6 every three levels. If you never get more than 16 dex (mithral full plate allowing a max dex +3) you are adding 3 damage to your shots from dex to damage...woo. Increase your int mod for more damage, have your full plate, shield, and extracts for AC, and hit touch because gun/bomb. Screw dex to damage.

So for feats/discovery/levels
1: Grenadier alchemist 1. Point blank shot(human bonus) Precise shot(1st level feat) Throw anything(alchemist bonus) Martial weapon prof(grenadier bonus)
2: grenadier alchemist 2. Precise bombs(grenadier bonus) Frost bombs discovery.
3: grenadier alchemist 3. Bonus discovery(feat): infusion
4: grenadier alchemist 4. Discovery- explosive missile
5: gun tank pistolero 1. Gunsmith/pistol proficency(bonus gunslinger), rapid reload(bonus feat)
6:grenadier alchemist 5. Discovery, vestigial arm
7: grenadier alchemist 6. Bonus discovery(feat) tumor familiar. Discovery-preserve organs.
8: grenadier alchemist 7.
9: grenadier alchemist 8. Discovery- bomb upgrade(dispelling, force, explosive, or blinding) bonus feat-improved familiar or improved initiative.
10: grenadier alchemist 9.
11: grenadier alchemist 10: discovery-mummification. Bonus feat-improved familiar, improved initiative, deadly aim.

At higher levels, grab a couple more of the bomb upgrades, eventually deadly aim/improved familiar and initiative and done.

this is awesome!! thank you so much, it's exactly what i'm looking for. i'm very new to pathfinder so it's nice to have someone explain it all to me. I'll definitely be working towards mithril plate then, and the third arm option is awesome. didn't know it existed.

how does getting both gun tank and pistelero work though? i can get both at level one? and another thing...explosive missile says that i can infuse, load, and shoot a piece of ammunition as a standard turn. if that's the case , doesn't that make Rapid Reload a bit redundant? or does it not work like how i read it haha.

[Geddy2112]

this is awesome!! thank you so much, it's exactly what i'm looking for. i'm very new to pathfinder so it's nice to have someone explain it all to me. I'll definitely be working towards mithril plate then, and the third arm option is awesome. didn't know it existed.

how does getting both gun tank and pistelero work though? i can get both at level one? and another thing...explosive missile says that i can infuse, load, and shoot a piece of ammunition as a standard turn. if that's the case , doesn't that make Rapid Reload a bit redundant? or does it not work like how i read it haha.

You are welcome! You will need to be in light armor for your first few levels, but you can save up for it and get it at level 5 when you dip into gun tank/pistelero.

You can take multiple archtypes so long as they don't replace the same features. Pistelero and gun tank replace different gunslinger features, so you can be both. Consider dropping pistelero though, even if you use a pistol. The reason is the deadeye deed lets you target touch AC at any range increment, not just the first. The first range increment for a pistol is only 20ft, meaning you are in the same range your bombs would have.... You could use a musket, which only needs 2 arms to reload and fire(your 3rd holding a shield) for a longer range increment, but slower load time(down to a move with rapid reload and alchemical cartriges). Likewise, the boon of explosive ammo is to be able to stay far away from combat.

While this build is certainly viable, it is not the most bomb blasting thing in the world. You are basically making yourself into an impenetrable fortress and short of a nat 1 you are going to auto hit dang near anything and do a ton of damage. A fast bombs alchemist is going to be nuking the world with more damage output, but you have survivalibility and unless you are hitting a lot of encounters a day, you should be able to use a bomb bullet every attack by level 5. You can always backup hybrid funnel an alchemical weapon.

You do need rapid reload-as it is, a pistol is a standard action to load. You can use alchemical cartridges to make it a move, but if you use both alchemical cartridges and rapid reload you can reload as a free. You are only using a single shot, but you need your standard and probably still want your move action open.

[tatszico]

You are welcome! You will need to be in light armor for your first few levels, but you can save up for it and get it at level 5 when you dip into gun tank/pistelero.

You can take multiple archtypes so long as they don't replace the same features. Pistelero and gun tank replace different gunslinger features, so you can be both. Consider dropping pistelero though, even if you use a pistol. The reason is the deadeye deed lets you target touch AC at any range increment, not just the first. The first range increment for a pistol is only 20ft, meaning you are in the same range your bombs would have.... You could use a musket, which only needs 2 arms to reload and fire(your 3rd holding a shield) for a longer range increment, but slower load time(down to a move with rapid reload and alchemical cartriges). Likewise, the boon of explosive ammo is to be able to stay far away from combat.

While this build is certainly viable, it is not the most bomb blasting thing in the world. You are basically making yourself into an impenetrable fortress and short of a nat 1 you are going to auto hit dang near anything and do a ton of damage. A fast bombs alchemist is going to be nuking the world with more damage output, but you have survivalibility and unless you are hitting a lot of encounters a day, you should be able to use a bomb bullet every attack by level 5. You can always backup hybrid funnel an alchemical weapon.

You do need rapid reload-as it is, a pistol is a standard action to load. You can use alchemical cartridges to make it a move, but if you use both alchemical cartridges and rapid reload you can reload as a free. You are only using a single shot, but you need your standard and probably still want your move action open.

I would love using a musket and maybe going Musket Master instead with Gun Tank, but Explosive Missile only works with one-handed firearms :( and I already asked my GM and he wouldn't waive the rule. A shame! So if I can, I'd probably stick to the Gun Tank Pistelero dip unless there's a better alternative. I'll continue researching - you have already helped me bring my build alive, anyhow. Again, thanks :) If you figure out anything else, please do share!