Is ritual casting overrated (for warlocks)?

[LVOD]

So I've never really bothered with ritual casting. Am i missing out?

It just seems to me that if I have time to sit and perform a ritual, i probably have time to take a short rest and get all my slots back anyway.

[Captain Morgan]

I don't think spell slot efficiency is the appeal. I think it's expanding your tool kit and effectively providing more spells known, even if they do take time to cast.

That said, I think people underrate how great an improved familiar can be. Not strictly better than Tome, but pretty darn nice.

[NecroDancer]

The worst part about pact of the tome is Spending the gold to get rituals, other than that it's a pretty good option and my party loves me for it.

However I really want to try out a blade-lock or chain-lock, the warlock class (now that I know how to play it properly) is just so fun!

[Contrast]

As Captain Morgan said, its slightly less useful if you have a wizard in the party as one of the main advantages is just scribing all the spells.

That said, from a roleplaying point of view its much easier to convince the party to wait 10 minutes while you cast a spell than to wait around after you've cast the spell so you can catch a quick nap :smalltongue:

Honestly I'd take it just for being able to roleplay getting an unseen servant to set up my bed roll each evening :smallbiggrin:

[Gignere]

Are you kidding me? I am playing a wizard at the moment so should be very similar to a Tomelock. Going to search this room every one just saw a bunch of rags, detect magic bam +2 glamoured studded leather.

DM say so the ruins are inscribed with an ancient long lost language, 10 minutes later I have deciphered these long lost ancient language without the Rosetta Stone.

Man we are out of resources 3 mindflayers are searching for us, all right Leomund's Tiny hut after the ranger uses survival to evade them for 10 minutes. Long rest and come out kicking butts and taking names.

That would have been 3 spells that either not on the warlock's list or would have wasted a precious spell known but you can just scribe these into your book and instantly you know these spells without wasting any resources.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't think spell slot efficiency is the appeal. I think it's expanding your tool kit and effectively providing more spells known, even if they do take time to cast.
This. It's not casting more spells, it's casting different (utility) spells.

[Morphic tide]

From what I've heard, Ritual casting allows the character to use spells that aren't normally available, and typically gets used with utility spells that rarely need scaling. The lack of needing spell slots is a rather important advantage, as it allows the rare few cases of a non caster grabbing the feat for ritual casting to work out quite well.

[CursedRhubarb]

Warlock ritual casting can be pretty awesome. You can write in ritual spells from any class. My lock keeps a copy of each ritual the wizard learns, and has some he doesn't as well as cleric spells like Purify Food and Drink (DM groans when I use it because he wants to get us sick from spoiled food to mix things up a bit). Even with two people knowing the same ritual, you can cast two Tiny huts to make a larger space safe (or a longer bridge) or one casts the hut while the other sets up an Alarm spell. It can really make things safer for your rests or come in handy with the amount of utility rituals.

[jaappleton]

I'll be brutally honest...

I think all of the Warlock pact options are not worth it. I don't like any of them.

Ok, rituals! Not bad. If your DM lets you find them. It's out of your hands.
Blade? Yeah, good luck with your insanely specialized build that takes way too many of your class resources.
Chain? Ok, a familiar. A special one, sure. But it gets one-shotted all the time. How's its features when its DEAD?

I'm really hoping for a LOT of new options with the UA article.

[Millstone85]

Ok, rituals! Not bad. If your DM lets you find them. It's out of your hands.Not entirely. You get two 1st-level rituals when you take the invocation. And don't forget the three cantrips before that.


Blade? Yeah, good luck with your insanely specialized build that takes way too many of your class resources.I agree.


Chain? Ok, a familiar. A special one, sure. But it gets one-shotted all the time. How's its features when its DEAD?How are you using your familiar?

[gfishfunk]

I'll be brutally honest...

I think all of the Warlock pact options are not worth it. I don't like any of them.

Ok, rituals! Not bad. If your DM lets you find them. It's out of your hands.
Blade? Yeah, good luck with your insanely specialized build that takes way too many of your class resources.
Chain? Ok, a familiar. A special one, sure. But it gets one-shotted all the time. How's its features when its DEAD?

I'm really hoping for a LOT of new options with the UA article.

While I am also looking forward to the new options, I think this perspective bypasses the utility aspect. The specialized familiars provide great out of combat utility, as does tome. The Blade feature just lets you do weird build stuff that is also quite fun (not at all better, of course).

The ritual aspect is actually a invocation, and you get a couple of low level freebie rituals (not bad at all). The main draw is a couple of extra cantrips, which are (again) usually utility oriented because you already have eldritch blast.

Criticizing the boon options for not being better in combat is a lot like criticizing the explorer's backpack for not being a sword. It isn't, but it has other good stuff. I do respect your position, though. I merely disagree.

[CursedRhubarb]

I'll be brutally honest...

I think all of the Warlock pact options are not worth it. I don't like any of them.

Ok, rituals! Not bad. If your DM lets you find them. It's out of your hands.
Blade? Yeah, good luck with your insanely specialized build that takes way too many of your class resources.
Chain? Ok, a familiar. A special one, sure. But it gets one-shotted all the time. How's its features when its DEAD?

I'm really hoping for a LOT of new options with the UA article.

Tome: rituals should be able to be found from enemy spell books, copied from the party Wizard's, or you might be able to buy a scroll from churches for some of the cleric ones. Otherwise finding scrolls in loot for non wizard ones and if need be you can ritual cast spells you know that can be cast as a ritual. The three cantrips you gain are also great since you can pick from any class.

Blade: depending on how you want to build this can be a rough one. Some builds eat resources heavily, others can go light on them. Tank builds tend to eat more while skirmisher builds tend to eat less. Also very friendly for MC.

Chain: If you are getting your familiar killed that often you may want to rethink how you use it. Chain familiars add superior scouting with options for invisibility, and the unlimited telepathy range is very handy. No longer limited to 100ft to control it to spot for details and they are smart enough to give complicated instructions. That some are shape changers is also very useful since you can then change your Familiar's form without having to recast the spell and it doesn't cost you 10gp every time you change it. That 10gp adds up very fast.

For UA, I completely agree that some new Pact Boon options would be great. There has been several Patron options that have been interesting but no Boons yet.

[jaappleton]

As far as the Familiar goes.... What happens when an enemy unleashed a Fireball? Cone of Cold? Etc. It's VERY easy for any familiar to go down. Then your features from that are offline.

Between the 3, I like Tome, but that's essentially by default.

I actually LOVE Warlock as a class. I think it's unique, fun, can be built in so many different ways, each Patron is incredibly unique and well made.

But the Boons? Meh. Just meh.

[Millstone85]

As far as the Familiar goes.... What happens when an enemy unleashed a Fireball? Cone of Cold? Etc. It's VERY easy for any familiar to go down. Then your features from that are offline.If you are expecting those, you should spend an action to temporarily dismiss your familiar.


For UA, I completely agree that some new Pact Boon options would be great. There has been several Patron options that have been interesting but no Boons yet.Well, UA had a patron-exclusive pact boon. Not a great direction to take the class in. Also, it had a confusing name. Pact of the Star Chain? That's like the Undying Light from UA versus the Undying from SCAG. But I liked the divinatory angle. Pact of the Orb could be interesting.

[CaptainSarathai]

I'm in the camp that the rituals are overrated as a major draw for Tome. Tome isn't bad, the extra 3 cantrips from anywhere are amazing, and make it my default Pact.

The rituals however - you rely far too much on the DM and their DMing style. Sure, if you have a Wizard in the party you can copy their Rituals but then, you have a Wizard in the party, just let them handle rituals. Otherwise, you're relying on your DM letting you find/buy rituals. And the more you push and the more powerful those rituals become for play, the more likely you are to be shot down. If Leomund's Tiny Hut is wrecking all of their wilderness encounters, then eventually they're going to stop letting you get it, etc.

To me, the Warlock class isn't very focused. There's no central theme to wrap around except "I cast Eldritch Blast." Maybe it's just the Paradox of Choice, where the 3 Patrons, 3 Pacts, and dozen or so Invocations are too broad for our heads to lock down a single "optimal" path, but I think we have - AEBing is really the Warlock's whole schtick.

I still like the Warlock class, and I enjoy all of that choice and all of that playing, and the class "keeps up" just fine. I just feel like there are lots of 'false' choices for Warlocks, so that when you pare those away, the class feels like it only has a single Subclass.
I don't think that the UA options are going to fix it, unless we get a massive amount of new stuff. Mainly, new Pacts rather than Patrons, and new Invocations for those pacts and the ones we have. They need to decentralize things away from EB spam, give us other viable and meaningful mechanical choices in our builds.

[Morphic tide]

To me, the Warlock class isn't very focused. There's no central theme to wrap around except "I cast Eldritch Blast." Maybe it's just the Paradox of Choice, where the 3 Patrons, 3 Pacts, and dozen or so Invocations are too broad for our heads to lock down a single "optimal" path, but I think we have - AEBing is really the Warlock's whole schtick.

I still like the Warlock class, and I enjoy all of that choice and all of that playing, and the class "keeps up" just fine. I just feel like there are lots of 'false' choices for Warlocks, so that when you pare those away, the class feels like it only has a single Subclass.
I don't think that the UA options are going to fix it, unless we get a massive amount of new stuff. Mainly, new Pacts rather than Patrons, and new Invocations for those pacts and the ones we have. They need to decentralize things away from EB spam, give us other viable and meaningful mechanical choices in our builds.

Or double down on EB and give piles of extra stuff for EB. Like, massive amounts of it.

[MrStabby]

I'm in the camp that the rituals are overrated as a major draw for Tome. Tome isn't bad, the extra 3 cantrips from anywhere are amazing, and make it my default Pact.

The rituals however - you rely far too much on the DM and their DMing style. Sure, if you have a Wizard in the party you can copy their Rituals but then, you have a Wizard in the party, just let them handle rituals. Otherwise, you're relying on your DM letting you find/buy rituals. And the more you push and the more powerful those rituals become for play, the more likely you are to be shot down. If Leomund's Tiny Hut is wrecking all of their wilderness encounters, then eventually they're going to stop letting you get it, etc.

To me, the Warlock class isn't very focused. There's no central theme to wrap around except "I cast Eldritch Blast." Maybe it's just the Paradox of Choice, where the 3 Patrons, 3 Pacts, and dozen or so Invocations are too broad for our heads to lock down a single "optimal" path, but I think we have - AEBing is really the Warlock's whole schtick.


I still like the Warlock class, and I enjoy all of that choice and all of that playing, and the class "keeps up" just fine. I just feel like there are lots of 'false' choices for Warlocks, so that when you pare those away, the class feels like it only has a single Subclass.
I don't think that the UA options are going to fix it, unless we get a massive amount of new stuff. Mainly, new Pacts rather than Patrons, and new Invocations for those pacts and the ones we have. They need to decentralize things away from EB spam, give us other viable and meaningful mechanical choices in our builds.



I think that there are some classes are too focused on one aspect of the class. Barbarians with rage, warlocks with eldritch blast, monks with stunning strike...

But I think Pact or the Tome rituals are pretty awesome, although with a DM that has been supportive of hunting down additional ones. The strength is being able to cover any missing classes in terms of rituals. Water breathing, forbiddance, some good divination spells... there is a lot of power there. No one individual spell is game changing, but the opportunity to take so many and to have the right spell for the occasion is important.

[Captain Morgan]

As far as the Familiar goes.... What happens when an enemy unleashed a Fireball? Cone of Cold? Etc. It's VERY easy for any familiar to go down. Then your features from that are offline..

If you are playing with an imp, the strongest choice, it's immune to fireball. Given it takes half damage from cold AND has advantage on the save, it's not impossible he survives the Cone. If he's flying 5-10 feet of you, lightning bolt probably misses him. He's also immune to poison. Or, if you think you are going to get nuked, have your familiar take off flying out of the danger zone, and act as an invisible relay to spot enemy reinforcements and what not. Or hide itself in the bottom of your bag-- it's not like your gear usually gets damaged by AoE stuff. If none of these apply, there's a good chance your familiar's magic resistance helped you pass the save before it perished, and you took less damage because of it. (Honestly, if you are using the familiar properly as a scout you shouldn't be getting surprised that often.)

And if he dies in battle... so what? You spend an hour getting him back. Inconvenient, and not always practical, but wanting to take frequent pit stops isn't exactly a new problem for the Warlock. Unless your DM decides your familiar can blow you off for poor labor conditions it's fine. In the situations where the familiar shines most (scouting) you usually aren't pressed for time anyway. It's not meant to be a combat boon, despite the fact that the help action exists and it provides you advantage on all saves against magic.

I think people forget how good the improved familiars are because they aren't actually in the players handbook. For example, Voice of the Chainmaster is rarely useful because basic familiars mentions a 100 foot sensory sharing range, but improved familiars get it for a mile. How often do you scout ahead more than a mile? I'd read it as being able to stay in telepathic contact within that distance, though by RAW a DM may interpret otherwise. Still, the critters are smart enough to trust with independent initiative anyway.

If anything, it's only real problem is lack of scaling once you start getting creatures with blindsense and such. But by the high levels Chainlocks can gain access to Chains of Carceri, which is a pretty sweet consolation prize.

People have talked enough about the benefits of Tome to where I don't feel compelled to defend it. The only pact I really think disappoints is Blade, which is still possible to make function... But requires a lot more expending class resources to do well than I'm comfortable with, as you said.

[Millstone85]

I think people forget how good the improved familiars are because they aren't actually in the players handbook. For example, Voice of the Chainmaster is rarely useful because basic familiars mentions a 100 foot sensory sharing range, but improved familiars get it for a mile. How often do you scout ahead more than a mile?Everything you need to know about Pact of the Chain is in the PHB, including the stat blocks of the possible forms. A separately boxed text in the MM has nothing to do with it.

Otherwise, why not go all the way and follow Volo's rule?
Variant: Familiars
Any spellcaster that can cast the find familiar spell (such as an apprentice, warlock, or wizard) is likely to have a familiar. The familiar can be one of the creatures described in the spell (see the Player's Handbook) or some other Tiny monster, such as a cranium rat, a crawling claw, a gazer, an imp, a pseudodragon, or a quasit.No reason at all to be a chainlock. :smallsigh:

[Captain Morgan]

Everything you need to know about Pact of the Chain is in the PHB, including the stat blocks of the possible forms. A separately boxed text in the MM has nothing to do with it.

Really? Could you point it out to me? I've never been able to find it. Could you point me to it?

[Millstone85]

Really? Could you point it out to me? I've never been able to find it. Could you point me to it?PHB p107: Pact of the Chain class feature
PHB p240: find familiar spell
PHB p306: imp stat block
PHB p308: pseudodragon stat block
PHB p309: quasit stat block
PHB p310: sprite stat block

[Ruslan]

So I've never really bothered with ritual casting. Am i missing out?

It just seems to me that if I have time to sit and perform a ritual, i probably have time to take a short rest and get all my slots back anyway.

The issue is not only about the time it takes, it's also about number of spells known. Warlocks are extremely limited in their known spells. But, if you take either the Ritual Caster feat or the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, the rituals book has no mechanical limitation. The only limit to the amount of rituals you can have is how many you can find in-game.

[Captain Morgan]

PHB p107: Pact of the Chain class feature
PHB p240: find familiar spell
PHB p306: imp stat block
PHB p308: pseudodragon stat block
PHB p309: quasit stat block
PHB p310: sprite stat block

Ah, yes. Well, that stuff omits the MM's notes on how your critter provides you magic resistance and telepathic bond range of a mile when it's a familiar. I suppose your DM could rule that the PHB overrules the MM, but that strikes me as absurd as only the MM specicially references the creature actually functioning as a familiar. Wizards seems have posted contradictory (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/25/the-warlock-familiar-has-all-monster-manual-stats/)rulings on this though. Losing the MM text would be a blow, but the Improved familiar still has many advantages the normal familiar lacks.

Now, if there's a thing that allows anyone with find familiar to gain an Improved Familiar, then the Pact of the Chain is obsolete and Wizards has had a pretty big failing in design, IMO.

[MeeposFire]

Ah, yes. Well, that stuff omits the MM's notes on how your critter provides you magic resistance and telepathic bond range of a mile when it's a familiar. I suppose your DM could rule that the PHB overrules the MM, but that strikes me as absurd as only the MM specicially references the creature actually functioning as a familiar. Wizards seems have posted contradictory (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/25/the-warlock-familiar-has-all-monster-manual-stats/)rulings on this though. Losing the MM text would be a blow, but the Improved familiar still has many advantages the normal familiar lacks.

Now, if there's a thing that allows anyone with find familiar to gain an Improved Familiar, then the Pact of the Chain is obsolete and Wizards has had a pretty big failing in design, IMO.

Well there is one key difference even if other classes can bond to those creatures and that is if you look at the MM if you bind yourself to one of those creatures and you are not a warlock then they can do what they want and can leave you if they want to. Warlock familiars are not even technically those creatures just being in their form as I recall and they have full control over them at all times.

This can be important for instance if you are not an evil character trying to bind to an imp. An actual imp will probably only accept you if it thinks you are going to be evil or that it thinks it can turn you to evil things. A good warlock can have all the advantages of having an imp familiar without worrying that it will stab him in the back later.

[Millstone85]

Wizards seems have posted contradictory (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/25/the-warlock-familiar-has-all-monster-manual-stats/)rulings on this though.There is no contradiction. The PHB and the MM have the same stat blocks regarding the imp, pseudodragon, quasit and sprite. The box detailing a shared magic resistance, a 1-mile telepathic bond and the creature's freedom to leave the caster at any time, that box is not part of any stat block. It is a variant rule intended for monster and NPC spellcasters (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/725190105451888640).


Now, if there's a thing that allows anyone with find familiar to gain an Improved Familiar, then the Pact of the Chain is obsolete and Wizards has had a pretty big failing in design, IMO.I agree there is a failure in design. Characters follow different rules depending on whether or not they are controlled by a player. Now that feels contradictory, from a story perspective. But that's clearly how WotC did it.

[danhass]

If the warlock also takes Book of Ancient Secrets it is quite amazing.

[Captain Morgan]

There is no contradiction. The PHB and the MM have the same stat blocks regarding the imp, pseudodragon, quasit and sprite. The box detailing a shared magic resistance, a 1-mile telepathic bond and the creature's freedom to leave the caster at any time, that box is not part of any stat block. It is a variant rule intended for monster and NPC spellcasters (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/725190105451888640).

I agree there is a failure in design. Characters follow different rules depending on whether or not they are controlled by a player. Now that feels contradictory, from a story perspective. But that's clearly how WotC did it.

Well, that's dumb and confusing. But if you play it that way, it really just means your probably snagging Voice of the Chainmaster, which already had some corner case usage and is a fun way to mock enemies from afar. Your still on par with the other Pacts as far the "invocation tax" goes. Losing magical resistance sucks, but it was frankly the cherry on a still pretty sweet Sunday.

That and the volo stuff certainly reduces Pact of the Chain's appeal. Feels like any pact choice is worth discussing with your DM. Blade could really use some house rules. Tome loses luster if you won't find rituals. And Chain is pretty confusing rule wise.

Edit: To be clear, my interpretation as a DM is very permissive towards the Chainlock, partially because I think even with those limitations it's still a flavor over function choice compared to the Tome. I'd also protect the improved familiars as an exclusive to Warlock feature.