more eldritch from an eldritch knight (multi-class question)

[kenposan]

So I really like the concept of the EK, but I want more blasty goodness. I thought blade pact warlock made sense since it's EK like and fits the character concept.

The last time I multi-classed was 1e, so the idea of planning out a progression is a bit daunting to me.

Fighter 1-3 to hit EK then pick up 3 in warlock to get blade pact, then back to EK to 5 for extra attack, then go full warlock?

or would be better to go champion or battlemaster and forget EK since the casting doesn't stack?

5e multi-classing makes my head hurt.

thanks!

[MeeposFire]

So I really like the concept of the EK, but I want more blasty goodness. I thought blade pact warlock made sense since it's EK like and fits the character concept.

The last time I multi-classed was 1e, so the idea of planning out a progression is a bit daunting to me.

Fighter 1-3 to hit EK then pick up 3 in warlock to get blade pact, then back to EK to 5 for extra attack, then go full warlock?

or would be better to go champion or battlemaster and forget EK since the casting doesn't stack?

5e multi-classing makes my head hurt.

thanks!

It really depends on what you want to do. The big reason to go EK is to be able to cast a canptrip and attack and/or being a full fighter with some spells on the side.

That being said if you want to go melee I would go fighter EK 8/rogue 12 if you want to multiclass going fighter 8 then rogue and you want to take the booming blade cantrip. This character would cast booming blade and then use the bonus action attack from war magic. This gives you two attacks to get your sneak attack damage in.

If you want to be a ranged EK then warlock is a great idea. Go 8 levels of EK fighter to get warmagic and then pick up 2 levels of warlock for eldritch blast and agonizing blast invocation. Your last 12 levels can be rogue if you want skills, damage, and special defenses. IN this case you cast EB and then make a ranged weapon attack with sneak attack damage.



IN any case if you multiclassing many times if you are in a class that gets extra attack and using a weapon generally you want to make sure you get to level 5 for extra attack first before multiclassing in most cases (there are a few exceptions) since otherwise you will feel behind once everybody else has hit level 5. The nice thing about the two builds I have above is that their progress works great as you should never feel like your class is behind the curve. In both cases the first 8 levels are pure fighter goodness at the levels where in many cases they are best. Then after that you just increase the damage using your cantrips and then continue improving due to sneak attack.

[Specter]

First of all, rule of thumb is don't multiclass before level 5, unless it's for one level. At level 6, an EK3/Lock 3 has watched sll his friends surpass him. Don't do it.

Then comes the question: what is 'blasty goodness'? If it's area damage, you're much better going for Wizard or Sorcerer, if you have a low INT. Action Surge and Quickened Spell do much more damage than any Warlock shenanigans. If it's single target damage, pure Fighter or Paladin/Sorcerer come ahead. Are you using a bow, regular weapon...? Tell us what you're looking for.

The oy things I can see going for Warlock for EK is Devil's Sight and Hex.

[MeeposFire]

First of all, rule of thumb is don't multiclass before level 5, unless it's for one level. At level 6, an EK3/Lock 3 has watched sll his friends surpass him. Don't do it.

Then comes the question: what is 'blasty goodness'? If it's area damage, you're much better going for Wizard or Sorcerer, if you have a low INT. Action Surge and Quickened Spell do much more damage than any Warlock shenanigans. If it's single target damage, pure Fighter or Paladin/Sorcerer come ahead. Are you using a bow, regular weapon...? Tell us what you're looking for.

The oy things I can see going for Warlock for EK is Devil's Sight and Hex.

Actually eldritch blast with agonizing blast works really well with war magic so there is that but that is really the only big one and that really only requires 2 levels to get.

[MrStabby]

First of all, rule of thumb is don't multiclass before level 5, unless it's for one level. At level 6, an EK3/Lock 3 has watched sll his friends surpass him. Don't do it.

Then comes the question: what is 'blasty goodness'? If it's area damage, you're much better going for Wizard or Sorcerer, if you have a low INT. Action Surge and Quickened Spell do much more damage than any Warlock shenanigans. If it's single target damage, pure Fighter or Paladin/Sorcerer come ahead. Are you using a bow, regular weapon...? Tell us what you're looking for.

The oy things I can see going for Warlock for EK is Devil's Sight and Hex.

Well warlock 2 can also give you devils sight and loads more spell slots to spam shield from

[Specter]

Actually eldritch blast with agonizing blast works really well with war magic so there is that but that is really the only big one and that really only requires 2 levels to get.

It does work, for archers. You don't want to smash them and get disadvantage on EB. And with the lowish CHA this multi is likely to have, it will be marginally better than Fire Bolt.


Well warlock 2 can also give you devils sight and loads more spell slots to spam shield from

Well, two. Not loads.

The thing to remember is that to multiclass Warlock, you need to turn a 8 CHA into a 13 CHA, and there has to be a really good reason to pump your only dump stat.

[rooneg]

I think the thing to keep in mind is that an Eldritch Knight actually makes a pretty poor blaster. You need like 7 levels in EK to really make it worth playing (because War Magic is pretty much the key ability for the subclass), and the casting you get out of an EK at level 7 is WAY behind in the blasting department compared to any other 7th level character out there. You're just slightly better than a 2nd level Wizard at that point. You're also pretty MAD, so unless you're actually multiclassing into Wizard (assuming you're a smart EK and not a dumb EK) you're talking about needing to build up yet another ability (beyond STR/DEX and CON). If you're a dumb EK and dumped INT then you can probably afford that, but if you put points into INT you really don't have any extra to put in your new class's important stat.

If you want to play a marital class that can blast stuff consider something other than an EK. 2 levels of Paladin + a bunch of Sorcerer can blast all day and also turn spell slots into melee damage. 3-5 levels of Fighter (either Champion or Battlemaster) combined with Cleric (Light) or Sorcerer would also be pretty good. Warlock honestly seems better as a 2 level dip than anything else, at least if you're putting any levels into a Martial class first, since you'll be so far behind a single class Warlock.

A lot of this stuff depends on when you're starting out. If you start at level 1 all these builds take a bunch of time before they're actually doing their thing. If you're starting at a higher level it's a bit more practical.

[MeeposFire]

It does work, for archers. You don't want to smash them and get disadvantage on EB. And with the lowish CHA this multi is likely to have, it will be marginally better than Fire Bolt.



Well, two. Not loads.

The thing to remember is that to multiclass Warlock, you need to turn a 8 CHA into a 13 CHA, and there has to be a really good reason to pump your only dump stat.

Well if you were going to blast with EB then you would go high cha and average or low int. You are going to have a couple of EK slots and spells you might as well save them for things like shield and find familiar that do not are about your int score.

There is no reason to have a low cha score if you are going to multiclass warlock. Intelligence on an EK is not needed if you are only going for 8 levels. EB destroys fire bolt in every way.


Also EB can be fine in melee you just have to take crossbow expert and since you are a fighter for the first 8 levels you have at least one feat to spare. At low levels use the hand crossbow and use the attack action and bonus action shots. Once you get your warlock levels you use EB and the crossbow of your choice (you can go for the heaviest one available now) and all of those attacks are fully functional at range and in melee.

The build is actually quite versatile and SAD only requiring dex and cha being high and then putting any extra ASIs into con. You only really want one feat in crossbow expert though you could choose to take spell sniper and/or sharp shooter (though only for the reduction of penalties the -5/+10 actually will reduce your damage once sneak attack gets going on average).

Also if allowed you would take that newer close combat archery fighting style in UA.

[MrStabby]

You really are not much more MAD - you just use Cha instead of Int for your casting stat. You have a great selection of low level spells to make you tough and powerful, non of which need the casting stat. Hex, shield, absorb elements - you get a lot of robust power there.

[rooneg]

You really are not much more MAD - you just use Cha instead of Int for your casting stat. You have a great selection of low level spells to make you tough and powerful, non of which need the casting stat. Hex, shield, absorb elements - you get a lot of robust power there.

Yeah, I guess that's true. Ok, I rescind my comments about MAD. I still think it's a weird build for trying to make a combat caster type though, especially if you're planning on taking the rest of your levels in your caster class.

If you're stopping at 5 then I'm not convinced you wouldn't be better off with another martial type, since mostly you're just picking up Shield, Absorb Elements and a few cantrips. I don't think that's worth it if you're not going to stick around for War Caster.

If you're going all the way to 7 that's a big delay in the "build up power in the caster class" race. It's one thing with an EK who's planning on letting the caster class stuff buff his combat abilities, many of those spells are relatively low level and come online pretty fast once you start taking caster levels. It's another if you want to blow stuff up. That really means waiting till your caster class is level 5+, at which point you're pretty darn late in the game and way behind other casters.

A 7th level EK with 5 levels of Wizard is usually like "awesome, I can cast haste!", and that's fine for a 12th level character because they're really just a fighter with some extra toys. They gave up on getting their 3rd attack, but they're using the bonus action via War Caster and their SCAG combat cantrip is like 2 attacks, so they're making up for it. The spells from the Wizard levels are just cool stuff they can do in return for slightly fewer hit points, which they make up for partly by spamming Shield/Absorb Elements.

One who hits that 5th level of Wizard and is like "awesome, I can cast lightning bolt!" is standing next to 12th level single class casters and looking pretty behind the curve.

Maybe it's different for a Warlock, but I'm not sure the higher level warlock stuff is sufficiently cool if most of the time you're just casting Eldritch Blast.

[MeeposFire]

Blasting as an EK is to be an at will blaster not a spell slot user. If somebody wants to use spells that actually require a number of slots you are typically better off just being a full time caster.

That said you can get nice at will damage using EK with EB or booming blade.

[Specter]

Well if you were going to blast with EB then you would go high cha and average or low int. You are going to have a couple of EK slots and spells you might as well save them for things like shield and find familiar that do not are about your int score.

There is no reason to have a low cha score if you are going to multiclass warlock. Intelligence on an EK is not needed if you are only going for 8 levels. EB destroys fire bolt in every way.

Also EB can be fine in melee you just have to take crossbow expert and since you are a fighter for the first 8 levels you have at least one feat to spare. At low levels use the hand crossbow and use the attack action and bonus action shots. Once you get your warlock levels you use EB and the crossbow of your choice (you can go for the heaviest one available now) and all of those attacks are fully functional at range and in melee.

The build is actually quite versatile and SAD only requiring dex and cha being high and then putting any extra ASIs into con. You only really want one feat in crossbow expert though you could choose to take spell sniper and/or sharp shooter (though only for the reduction of penalties the -5/+10 actually will reduce your damage once sneak attack gets going on average).

Also if allowed you would take that newer close combat archery fighting style in UA.

This is all assuming you want to have a decent INT. If you don't, why not pump only STR/DEX and CON? Advocating against INT is the same case as advocating against CHA

Yes, Eldritch Blast is better than Fire Bolt (though notvtoo much). You know what else destroys Fire Bolt? Archery Fighting Style and Sharpshooter. If you're an archer, you don't need to boost CHA at all.

Grabbing a feat just for EB? Okay, let's agree, that's not an EK anymore.

I wouldn't go for any CHA multis on an EK, but if I did it would definitely be Sorcerer, not Warlock. Sorcerer along with Fighter makes for some of the meanest bastards ever, not just '1d10+CHA' like.


You really are not much more MAD - you just use Cha instead of Int for your casting stat. You have a great selection of low level spells to make you tough and powerful, non of which need the casting stat. Hex, shield, absorb elements - you get a lot of robust power there.

Fine. I just wouldn't multiclass because of a few more tools.

[Captain Morgan]

You can also pick up a lot of fun utility for a fighter who otherwise has none. I dunno that it's optimal, but hex + EB + an attack on top of that would certainly put in work. Many of the fun Warlock invocations remain dandy on a fighter chasis.

I don't think has been said already though-- never go blade pact if you are already an Eldritch Knight. Everything is redundant with what EK already gets until Warlock 12. You'll be much better off with chain or tome.

[MeeposFire]

This is all assuming you want to have a decent INT. If you don't, why not pump only STR/DEX and CON? Advocating against INT is the same case as advocating against CHA

Yes, Eldritch Blast is better than Fire Bolt (though notvtoo much). You know what else destroys Fire Bolt? Archery Fighting Style and Sharpshooter. If you're an archer, you don't need to boost CHA at all.

Grabbing a feat just for EB? Okay, let's agree, that's not an EK anymore.

I wouldn't go for any CHA multis on an EK, but if I did it would definitely be Sorcerer, not Warlock. Sorcerer along with Fighter makes for some of the meanest bastards ever, not just '1d10+CHA' like.



Fine. I just wouldn't multiclass because of a few more tools.

I think you must have forgotten what this thread is about. The OP wanted to play an EK blaster. That implies casting something so no going for all weapon attacks would not be in the cards. If you just want to make weapon attacks then yea you don't need cha or multiclassing at all but since that is not the point of this thread that does not seem to be an adequate answer. I also would not advocate getting EB via magical secrets since its true power requires warlock 2 for agonizing blast.

Also while I do apreciate the extra toughness that comes with more con you can afford a decent con even if boosting dex and cha and you are a ranged character at heart so max con is not required. Further in many games having a high cha can be a nice boon in social encounters as well and helps you in an area that you would otherwise be potentially weak.


Also even though sharp shooter damage is quite good do not doubt that EB+cha+ a heavy crossbow with sneak attack is weak because that is very nice damage and you can combine that with the close combat archery style in UA to nice effect (if that fighting style is out then I recommend either archery, though it only applies to one attack in this case, or defensive/mariner depending on armor being worn).

In addition the rogue levels help you with skills and give more defensive options (uncanny dodge and evasion to name a few) while simultaneously giving you more damage. Sine that damage only applies to one attack this works fairly well with the EB warmagic spamming EK.

[CaptainSarathai]

So I really like the concept of the EK, but I want more blasty goodness. I thought blade pact warlock made sense since it's EK like and fits the character concept.

The last time I multi-classed was 1e, so the idea of planning out a progression is a bit daunting to me.

Fighter 1-3 to hit EK then pick up 3 in warlock to get blade pact, then back to EK to 5 for extra attack, then go full warlock?

or would be better to go champion or battlemaster and forget EK since the casting doesn't stack?

5e multi-classing makes my head hurt.

thanks!

Initially I thought that you were already an EK. So what you're saying you want is basically a heavy armored caster, who can do melee and blast damage? That seems... unobtainable due to OPness.

Warlock can get 2 attacks just like a Fighter, it just can't get more, like Fighter 11+

Warlock is a Blaster, using Agonizing Eldritch Blast, but it doesn't get lots of AoE spells, so if that's what you want, you need a Sorc.

To be good at melee, you can get the Fighter's armor, or go Dex Based with Warlock, or go Favored Soul or Draconic with Sorcerer. Any of these give you either Unarmored/Medium/Heavy Armor, Martial Weapons, Shields, and Extra Attack depending on the combination.

So, some key thoughts here:

Warlock
You can get At-Will Mage Armor with an Invocation, starting at L2. For defense you have the Darkness+Devil's combo, although your party might hate you.
For Patron, Fiend or Fey are both good in melee. If UA is allowed, then Undying Light can do horrible things with adding Charisma to Fire Damage.
For melee options, you either go BladeLock, which gives Extra Attack at 5th, and +Cha to damage at 12th. With Hex active, a Bladelock who fights with 2 weapons is roughly on par with a Warlock who stands back blasting with EB, in terms of damage output. OR, you go Tome and take Shillelagh as one of your Cantrips, giving you Cha as your attack stat and letting you use your Arcane Focus Staff as a D8 weapon and add PoleArm Master if you feel like a jerk.

Sorcerer
If you want straight Gishness as a Sorcerer, and UA is allowed, go Favored Soul. It's not great, but it's Light, Medium and Shields for defense, and Martial Weapons. It gets Extra Attack at 6th level. It also has access to Cleric Domain Spells, for fun.
The advantage to Sorc is that you get Metamagic, which with Quicken, is better than Warmagic (as long as you have Sorcery Points to fuel it). With Quicken, the SCAG cantrips can outpace Extra Attacks for damage.
Draconic Sorcs are also good, with again, Unarmored Defense and +Cha to a damage type, where you pick Fire and use Green Flame Blade.

Eldritch Knight Fighters
A 1/3 caster who basically throws spells that Wizards and Sorcerers get, to add to his defense. You can have a little fun with SCAG cantrips and Warcaster, but not as much fun as a Sorcerer using Quicken and adding Charisma to damage.
What the Fighter gets is, well, being a Fighter. Action Surge is good, tons of Extra Attacks, and all the Proficiencies plus Fighting Styles and so on.
EKs can be good, but not blasters. They are the "defensive Gish" option, where the Warlock and Sorcerer make better attack gishes.

Multiclassing
If you want armor and weapons, then you start Fighter. You go 1 or 2 levels. The first level gets your proficiency, and the second gives you Action Surge.
If you aren't planning to wear a ton of armor, then Warlock or Sorc can do nicely with a high Dex.
You need to decide how you'll attack. If you want Mutli Attack, you're limited to Fighter, BladeLock, or Favored Soul. If you are able to use SCAG cantrips, you can go with any Sorcerer and just use Metamagic.

For Blasting, straight Warlock or straight Sorc are both good. Multiclassing them, however, is vicious. Warlock has few slots, but they're always max level and come back on Short Rests. Sorcerers can take these slots and break them down into Points to fuel Metamagic or to create new slots. Using Hex and Eldritch Blast from Warlock, and then Quickening it with the Sorcerer, has disastrous results on anything down range, and is one of the more powerful combos in 5e for raw damage output. If you want to do that in melee, take the Crossbow Expert feat.

There's also the ability to Quicken SCAG cantrips, and add up to 3 times your Charisma to the damage, depending on the presence of UA.

Good Combos
1. Duellist Style, Tome Pact, Shillelagh, PoleArm Master, Extra Attack (Cha as attack stat, +Cha+2 to damage at both ends, 3x attempts to trigger Hex)

2. Undying Light Warlock, Shillelagh, Draconic Sorcerer, Green Flame Blade (Cha as attack stat, +3xCha to damage, Quicken Spell to do this twice)
You can play this with a Dwarf, to get Heavy Armor without the move penalty, meaning less need to go Fighter at all.

3. Two Weapon Fighter, Extra Attack, Hex, Warcaster, Booming Blade, Dual Wielder (3x attacks for Hex damage, with +Dex to damage on each hit. Since you need Warcaster to cast with a weapon in each hand, you may as well snag Booming Blade for OAs that either stop the enemy or blast him for huge damage)

4. Crossbow Expert, Agonizing Eldritch Blast, Hex, Quicken Spell (super easy, you get to throw levelled d10+d6+Cha twice per turn, in melee if you like)
Another build that can go Dwarf for armor.

[Sans.]

Have you considered multiclassing into wizard? Specifically, Bladesinger in a 10/10 split. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?459090-Need-help-Multiclassing-Eldritch-Knight-with-Bladesinger)


The 10/10 can be built competitive at every level; that's not an issue. I started with 5 levels of Eldritch Knight, in order to get Extra Attack. Then 2 levels of Bladesinger to get Bladesong. Level 6 of EK was the second ASI (character level 8, in keeping with non-fighter classes) and level 7 got War Magic (damage boost well ahead of CL11). Levels 3 and 4 in Bladesinger (CL10 and 11) give wider access to 2nd level spells, third level slots, and the 3rd ASI (a level ahead of schedule.) EK 8 (4th ASI), 9 (4th level slots), 10 (Eldritch Strike) at CL14. Then Bladesinger for the remaining 6 levels, capping with the Song of Defense.

[Sir cryosin]

Why Eldritch Knight? If you want melee and blasting. How you looked at valor bard, bladesinger, paladin lv2 sorcerer rest MC, if you go valor bard with vhuman with tough feat you have same HP as fighter. You'll be a full caster. You get magical secrets to pick up any spell you'll want.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So I really like the concept of the EK, but I want more blasty goodness. I thought blade pact warlock made sense since it's EK like and fits the character concept.

The last time I multi-classed was 1e, so the idea of planning out a progression is a bit daunting to me.

Fighter 1-3 to hit EK then pick up 3 in warlock to get blade pact, then back to EK to 5 for extra attack, then go full warlock?

or would be better to go champion or battlemaster and forget EK since the casting doesn't stack?

5e multi-classing makes my head hurt.

thanks!
Fighter 1/Blade Pact Warlock makes a pretty good build; you get heavy armor, a good ranged cantrip, and decent blasting. But if you have the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, you get two new good options: You can be a Bladesinger Wizards get decent melee ability and full casting, or you can go Fighter 1/Abjuration Wizard with either Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade for heavy armor, magical melee attacks, full casting and augmented defenses.

[tieren]

I don't think has been said already though-- never go blade pact if you are already an Eldritch Knight. Everything is redundant with what EK already gets until Warlock 12. You'll be much better off with chain or tome.

QFT, with extra attack and weapon bond from Ek why in the world would you want to be a blade lock?

[Specter]

Fighter 1/Blade Pact Warlock makes a pretty good build; you get heavy armor, a good ranged cantrip, and decent blasting. But if you have the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, you get two new good options: You can be a Bladesinger Wizards get decent melee ability and full casting, or you can go Fighter 1/Abjuration Wizard with either Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade for heavy armor, magical melee attacks, full casting and augmented defenses.

This. Both Bladelock and Abjurer with a Fighter dip would be more focused than EK/Warlock (I personally would go for the latter because Abjurers in heavy armor are nearly unkillable. Being too broad can be a sin.