Help me with paladin ancients tactics

[furby076]

So i have a lvl 4 human ooa paladin.
Quarterstaff, shield, PAM.... quarterstaff has reach (house rule), duelist (as the only tank, i need the ac)
Str 18, dex 10, int 9, con 14, wis 10, cha 16

Right now i have been doing two attacks.....1st is with butt of weapon to knock enemy prone, and 2nd is followup with attack.

What are some other fun things i can do? For example, whats a good way to go nova (i have been reading a bunch, but light on making that big boom.


If i had a choice in future gear, and doubt that i do, what is recommended? Full plate with pluses or abilities? Holy avenger quarterstaff. Cloak of displacement or invis? What else?


Thanks!

[Clone]

So i have a lvl 4 human ooa paladin.
Quarterstaff, shield, PAM.... quarterstaff has reach (house rule), duelist (as the only tank, i need the ac)
Str 18, dex 10, int 9, con 14, wis 10, cha 16

Right now i have been doing two attacks.....1st is with butt of weapon to knock enemy prone, and 2nd is followup with attack.

What are some other fun things i can do? For example, whats a good way to go nova (i have been reading a bunch, but light on making that big boom.


If i had a choice in future gear, and doubt that i do, what is recommended? Full plate with pluses or abilities? Holy avenger quarterstaff. Cloak of displacement or invis? What else?


Thanks!

I don't know if it is a houserule or something, but you can't knock an enemy prone with an attack unless you have Combat Maneuvers which a battlemaster has, by going three levels into fighter or picking up the feat. It takes a whole action to knock a target prone unless you have an ability that says otherwise.

In relation to Nova-ing, the easiest way to do big damage is get someone else in your party to cast Hold Person on a humanoid and then insta-crit them, using a smite with each hit of the weapon. At level 5, your next level, you get level 2 spell slots too. So in one round on a paralyzed target would be two attacks of 2d6 + 4 + 6d8 (smite) and a bonus action attack of 2d4 + 4 + 4d8. It takes a little bit of help from the party, but can be done in one round, which is a lot of damage. Otherwise saving your spell slots for natural crits and smiting would be your best bet!

[furby076]

I don't know if it is a houserule or something, but you can't knock an enemy prone with an attack unless you have Combat Maneuvers which a battlemaster has, by going three levels into fighter or picking up the feat. It takes a whole action to knock a target prone unless you have an ability that says otherwise.
Sorry, i meant using shove to knock a creature prone.phb ph 195


In relation to Nova-ing, the easiest way to do big damage is get someone else in your party to cast Hold Person on a humanoid and then insta-crit them, using a smite with each hit of the weapon. At level 5, your next level, you get level 2 spell slots too. So in one round on a paralyzed target would be two attacks of 2d6 + 4 + 6d8 (smite) and a bonus action attack of 2d4 + 4 + 4d8. It takes a little bit of help from the party, but can be done in one round, which is a lot of damage. Otherwise saving your spell slots for natural crits and smiting would be your best bet!

Got it, so attack and either hope for crit, or get someone to paralyze someone via hold. Does the ooa entangle ability grant that?

[Clone]

Unfortunately you can't use your bonus action attack to knock someone prone until level 5 when you get extra attack the rule one PHB pg195 says:
[Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.]

and the PAM feat says:
[When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, or quarterstaff, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. The weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4, and the attack deals bludgeoning damage.]

So you can't shove with the bonus action as it doesn't count as a normal attack and can only be used AFTER you already have attacked with your action. But when you reach level 5 you can shove, main attack then bonus attack away!

Also the Entangle ability the Oath of the Ancients Paladin gets restrains its target, which reduces their speed to 0, it has disadvantage on attack rolls and you have advantage on attack rolls against it, and while the target having disadvantage on Dex saving throws.
So unfortunately it doesn't paralyze, but advantage on attacks gives you twice the chance to crit!

Also with magic items I'd go for some of the Staffs or Rods in the DMG which can be used as Quarterstaffs, letting you have extra spellcasting while saving up your spell slots for smites!

A block of text, but I hope this helps :)

[Finback]

Are you using feats?

Because you could use the Shield Master feat to allow for knocking prone with the shield that you mentioned as a bonus action (so long as the opponent was within 5ft, so the reach may be moot)*.

(It's how I run my paladin - knock 'em down with the shield, strike with sword; or strike them, then knock them down and move to another foe and let my teammates handle the prone enemy).



* maybe your DM can houserule you can push an enemy back 5ft instead of prone, allowing a reach attack.

[Arkhios]

Attack Action and (melee/ranged) weapon attack are two different things.

You can use your Attack Action to shove, yes, but you can't use a melee weapon attack gained from a Bonus Action to shove.

It's about Cause and Effect.

A weapon attack or Shove is an effect while Attack Action or a Bonus Action is the cause.

[Quoxis]

Attack Action and (melee/ranged) weapon attack are two different things.

You can use your Attack Action to shove, yes, but you can't use a melee weapon attack gained from a Bonus Action to shove.

It's about Cause and Effect.

A weapon attack or Shove is an effect while Attack Action or a Bonus Action is the cause.

Would this build then be able to use the shove action (which i read as still being an attack action) to knock an opponent prone, after which they dealt 1d4 bludgeoning as a bonus action? Kind of the same strategy, just weaker dice (but qstaff is only 1d6 if one handedly wielded, if i remember correctly, so that wouldn't be that much of a loss in damage).
And can you smite on the d4 "blunt end strike" bonus action attack?

[Foxhound438]

Got it, so attack and either hope for crit, or get someone to paralyze someone via hold. Does the ooa entangle ability grant that?

no, but restraining a thing still gives you massive combat advantage

Otherwise I think you about have the hang of it. It seems you want to be using your bonus action to knock prone, which isn't technically allowed with PAM, so maybe ask your DM to let you switch out to shield master and use a d8 weapon? I like both styles for their own strengths, and personally prefer PAM, but it seems you're really just after shield master.

[Arkhios]

Would this build then be able to use the shove action (which i read as still being an attack action) to knock an opponent prone, after which they dealt 1d4 bludgeoning as a bonus action? Kind of the same strategy, just weaker dice (but qstaff is only 1d6 if one handedly wielded, if i remember correctly, so that wouldn't be that much of a loss in damage).
And can you smite on the d4 "blunt end strike" bonus action attack?

Personally I'm a bit iffy about allowing/using the butt end of a quarterstaff+PAM when one-handed and/or using a shield as well, but yeah, I guess you probably could use your Attack Action to Shove (as it is listed as an alternative form of attack) and then attack as a bonus action afterwards.

You can use divine smite (or a smite spell) when any melee weapon attack hits, regardless of the source that gave you the attack.

[Quoxis]

Personally I'm a bit iffy about allowing/using the butt end of a quarterstaff+PAM when one-handed and/or using a shield as well, but yeah, I guess you probably could use your Attack Action to Shove (as it is listed as an alternative form of attack) and then attack as a bonus action afterwards.

You can use divine smite (or a smite spell) when any melee weapon attack hits, regardless of the source that gave you the attack.

Thanks for the clarification!

[furby076]

Unfortunately you can't use your bonus action attack to knock someone prone until level 5 when you get extra attack the rule one PHB pg195 says:
[Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.]

and the PAM feat says:
[When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, or quarterstaff, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. The weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4, and the attack deals bludgeoning damage.]


1st: I appreciate the response and help. I'm not in agreement with the interpretation, and I may have to ask Mearles on twitter to get calrification

PAM: When you take the attack action <snip> you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack.
Shove: " If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.]"

Since PAM says the attack action, I get to make a bonus attack, it fulfills this clause multiple attacks with the Attack action, hence it fulfills the shove criteria.

I'll try twitter, and if that doesn't work, I'll tell the DM, and maybe swap out the feat for shield master. Original I was hoping for PAM and Polearm master. I guess I could still do that with Shield Master

[Contrast]

I don't think you should be able to use the bonus action to shove and Sage Advice seems to agree:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/27/which-attacks-can-be-used-to-shove-two-weapon-fighting-bonus-polearm-master-bonus-opportunity-attack-sentinel-reaction/

[Saggo]

PAM: When you take the attack action <snip> you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack.
Shove: " If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.]"

Since PAM says the attack action, I get to make a bonus attack, it fulfills this clause multiple attacks with the Attack action, hence it fulfills the shove criteria.

Unfortunately, it doesn't fulfill the criteria. A bonus action attack isn't being made with Attack Action. The Attack Action only caused the bonus action attack to be available.

[furby076]

I don't think you should be able to use the bonus action to shove and Sage Advice seems to agree:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/27/which-attacks-can-be-used-to-shove-two-weapon-fighting-bonus-polearm-master-bonus-opportunity-attack-sentinel-reaction/

Looking at the link you gave (following from start to finish, bold is mine)

1) Jonathan @JonathanEFearn
@mikemearls @JeremyECrawford Which attacks can be used to shove: TWF Bonus? Polearm Master Bonus? Opportunity Attack? Sentinel reaction?

2) (((Mike Mearls))) @mikemearls
@JonathanEFearn @JeremyECrawford i believe any attack made as part of the Attack action - so on your turn w/attack

3) E’Tallitnics @ETallitnics
@mikemearls @JonathanEFearn @JeremyECrawford So if a game mechanic gives me a Bonus Action to attack I can turn that into an Attack Action!?

4) Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford
A bonus action can do only the thing that gave you the bonus action. You can't swap it for another action. #DnD https://twitter.com/ETallitnics/status/722807813638987776

Following the link adds the following
5) Jonathan ‏@JonathanEFearn 20 Apr 2016
@ETallitnics @mikemearls @JeremyECrawford no, he only said the attack you get is part of the attack action. It is still only 1 more attack

Sooo...what am I missing here? Per Jeremy - A bonus action can do only the thing that gave you the bonus action. So if I used an attack action to get the bonus, then i get one more attack action. As I am reading this, both Mike and Jeremy are saying this. I did ask them directly, on their twitter today, so hopefully will see a response this week. Again, I am not averse to the, as I know it, changing. But I want to make sure i know whats up.

[Arkhios]

You are missing the point that the rules use a capitalized "Attack action" versus a non-capitalized "attack" on PURPOSE.

Those two are two different things (see my earlier post) and if you look closely (and remind yourself with basic grammar rules) it occurs *all over* the rulebooks whenever attacking is mentioned, and, that it's not mistakenly used in the middle of a sentence.

Attack action with a capital A is the *name* of a specific Action, while a non-capitalized attack merely speaks of the concept of making an attack roll.

[Contrast]

Sooo...what am I missing here? Per Jeremy - A bonus action can do only the thing that gave you the bonus action. So if I used an attack action to get the bonus, then i get one more attack action. As I am reading this, both Mike and Jeremy are saying this. I did ask them directly, on their twitter today, so hopefully will see a response this week. Again, I am not averse to the, as I know it, changing. But I want to make sure i know whats up.

When you take the Attack action (P192 PHB) you get to make a melee or ranged attack. Some class features, for instance the extra attack feature of the barbarian (P49 PHB), say that when you take the Attack Action you get to make two attacks instead of one. The rules for shoving (P195 PHB) say that when you take the Attack action you can exchange some of the attacks it grants to shove. Polearm Master (P165 PHB) says when you take the Attack action you get to make another melee attack as a bonus action with certain criteria.

Note that 'bonus action' is a specific, distinct term from an action. It is not saying you get a bonus 'action'.

Lets take the example of a level 5 fighter. He gets to make two attacks per Attack action as part of his extra attack feature, has action surge (which allows him to take an extra action on his turn) and Polearm Mastery. He uses the Attack action and makes his two attacks, killing his opponent. Seeing the rogue fighting against an opponent on his own he then uses his move to join the rogue. He then decides to action surge and gets another action which he uses to make the Attack action again for another two attacks! He uses the first to shove the opponent prone and the second to land the blow. Now, as he used the Attack action this turn he finally makes his single bonus action attack (like other actions you only get one bonus action a turn unless otherwise specified) using the end of his polearm.

So to summarise (and what is reiterated by the link I posted) - the bonus action attack does not give you another use of the Attack action (if that were true that would mean fighters and the like got multiple attacks from it!). It can only be used for the thing specifically outlined from the source of the bonus action. You can shove as a bonus action...but only if you take Shield Master as that specifies that you can use your bonus action to shove (but not attack).

There is, of course, nothing wrong with you attacking, using your action to shove and then using your bonus action attack to hit them in the face.


Edit - In terms of actually helping with your original point, one of the main issues is choosing how and when to use your spell slots. Bless is incredibly good but its concentration and will only stay around as long as you make the checks. Holding onto your spell slots of smiting when you crit can be worthwhile (and knocking people down to strike with advantage maximises your chance to crit) but you need to assess when this is appropriate. When it is better to just attack 4 times than it is to attack twice with advantage depends on the situation and the enemy you're fighting.

[Saggo]

There is, of course, nothing wrong with you attacking, using your action to shove and then using your bonus action attack to hit them in the face.

Depends on what's giving you the bonus action attack. PAM and TWF both require you to take the Attack Action and attack with a specific type of weapon, so that doesn't work if you knly have one attack. You'll need Extra Attack to both shove and attack with then Attack Action, then you can use the bonus action to attack.

[Contrast]

Depends on what's giving you the bonus action attack. PAM and TWF both require you to take the Attack Action and attack with a specific type of weapon, so that doesn't work if you knly have one attack. You'll need Extra Attack to both shove and attack with then Attack Action, then you can use the bonus action to attack.

As laid out above, you take the Attack action and then exchange your (in this case singular) melee attack for a shove. You don't need Extra Attack to do that. You have used the Attack action and therefore qualify for the bonus action granted under PAM.

You don't even need to decide what you're doing with the Attack action provided its sufficient to trigger whatever you want to do with the bonus action (hence why you can declare your Attack action, use Shieldmaster to shove the opponent prone as a bonus action and then proceed to make your attack/s with advantage while they lie on the floor).


Edit - This is also why Sage Advice (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/08/shove-grapple-attacks/ http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/05/08/barbarian-rage-2/) has said that shoving or grappling will maintain a barbarians rage (which normally drops if you do not make an attack or take damage) as they are simple special uses of the Attack action where you make 'special' melee attacks with different rules.

[Saggo]

As laid out above, you take the Attack action and then exchange your (in this case singular) melee attack for a shove. You don't need Extra Attack to do that. You have used the Attack action and therefore qualify for the bonus action granted under PAM.

You don't even need to decide what you're doing with the Attack action provided its sufficient to trigger whatever you want to do with the bonus action (hence why you can declare your Attack action, use Shieldmaster to shove the opponent prone as a bonus action and then proceed to make your attack/s with advantage while they lie on the floor).


Edit - This is also why Sage Advice (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/08/shove-grapple-attacks/ http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/05/08/barbarian-rage-2/) has said that shoving or grappling will maintain a barbarians rage (which normally drops if you do not make an attack or take damage) as they are simple special uses of the Attack action where you make 'special' melee attacks with different rules.

I get what you're saying, but it's not accurate. Again, PAM and TWF both require the Attack Action and attacking with a weapon, so it won't work if you have only one attack for the Attack Action.

"When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, or quarterstaff (p168)"
"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand (p195)"

As soon as you make a bonus action attack, your Action must go to attacking with one of those weapons. Likewise, if you do not attack with one of those weapons, you cannot bonus action attack using those abilities. Shoves and Grapples are attacks but replace attacking with a weapon, and so don't qualify for PAM or TWF alone.

[Contrast]

Ok...I shove you with my sword/polearm/use my sword/polearm to help me grapple you. Ta da? :smallconfused:

I see what you're saying. I'd be surprised for any DM to rule this way but point taken.

[Arial Black]

Slightly off-topic but I can't refrain from ranting that I find the one-handed quarterstaff and shield thing being compatible with PAM to be vomit-inducing. In my games I rule that in order to use PAM you must be using your weapon in two hands.

And here the DM is making it worse by allowing the quarterstaff to be a reach weapon, while held in one hand, and still let you attack with the butt end! Try and visualise that!

You're getting a six foot length of wood reach ten feet. Okay, you hold it in one hand by the very end and extend your arm. How can you attack with the butt end! I find it unrealistic that you could attack properly with the end that's pointing at the enemy, but the butt end? When you can't even use your other hand to help you shift grip because the other hand is holding a shield?

I find the whole thing absurd and it's about numbers on the paper rather than characters in the world, and about as achievable as swallowing your own head.

[/rant]