Thoughts on the Quintessential Samurai?

[CowardlyPaladin]

hey has anybody have any thoughts on this book? One of my players wants to play a Samurai who is more complicated than Oriental Adventures and less....terrible than Complete Warrior, has anybody looked at this? How does that book change its Tier listing and how would that contribute to a group? General thoughts? I have a game in two weeks and I want to know if I should use this or some other more interesting version of the Samurai class, maybe hte Pathfinder Samurai

[Blackhawk748]

The Quintessential books aren't bad, you just gotta keep an eye on some stuff as somethings are a bit crazy and others need a slight boost. As for the class itself it kinda looks like a slightly upgunned version of the OA Samurai (minus the self enchanting aspect) Personally i would say their bonus feats should be as the Fighter and then add the ones exclusive to the book in as well (they've got them in that list anyway) and give them Simple and Martial Weapon proficiencies, as i have no idea why it doesnt have that. As for the schools, they seem ok, sort of like less impressive Martial Maneuvers from ToB, but you can use them whenever, and how many times, you want.

From my cursory glance things look ok.

[mistermysterio]

If you don't mind third party stuff, using path of war (if you're playing pathfinder, otherwise there are similar options in tomb of battle) and going with a bushi warder (for the defensive, protective samurai) or a bushi warlord (for the offensive, reckless samurai) is pretty optimal. Focus on the mithral current discipline and it fits pretty perfectly - warrior focused on iaijutsu and quickdraw and resheath techniques, as well as honor and different types of bushido. The bushi archetype automatically gains proficiency in katanas and wakizashi (although, if you want to optimize with dsp stuff, dropping dex and using weapon finesse and deadly agility with an elven curved blade is probably best). Pretty fun and flavorful choices :).

[Grod_The_Giant]

You don't need the class to say "Samurai" in its name to play a Samurai. In fact, I think a Diamond Mind focused Warblade would be the best fit in 3.5-- a fierce warrior who's all about discipline and mind-over-body.

[CharonsHelper]

I like the Pathfinder samurai a lot. I played one from 1 up to level 7 or 8. The resolve & challenge mechanics are a lot of fun. It's on the lower end of the power pool for Pathfinder though, so you shouldn't have any problems putting in directly into 3.5 (generally Pathfinder buffed classes that it imported - especially martials).

There are even a couple of archetypes which give up the horse animal companion, if that isn't the vibe he wants. (What they get isn't as potent - but they're okay.)

But - as Grod says above - you don't need to have your class be Samurai to be a samurai in-game. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html

[RedMage125]

You don't need the class to say "Samurai" in its name to play a Samurai. In fact, I think a Diamond Mind focused Warblade would be the best fit in 3.5-- a fierce warrior who's all about discipline and mind-over-body.

So much this.

Also, while I do not have any thoughts on the Quintessential Samurai specifically, the Quintessential books are a grab-bag of crazy. By that I mean most of the content rates at either ridiculously overpowered, or underpowered to the point that it's unusable.

About 10-15% of the books are usually balanced for play while still being worth using. Example: the Quintessential Monk had a feat called Clever Monkey Spins the Branch. While a silly name, WotC later created the feat Short Haft in the PHBII that did the same thing. QuinMonk also had a cool new mechanic idea. Since Monks have Concentration on their Class Skill list (for some reason), they introduced a mechanic that allowed a monk to make a Concentration check to focus his ki before attempting to break an object (like a stack of bricks, a door, etc.). A higher Concentration check could grant bonuses to his break attempt. Totally cool. But most of the feats and all the prestige classes in the book are pretty much garbage.

[vasilidor]

I have looked through multiple quintessential books (but not the one you are conversing about) I actually liked the one about the fighter and made a rather effective* character using it.
*in the context of the game I was playing. your mileage may vary.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Lots of responses lets do this

You can just build a Samurai with a different class
I see this line of argument all the time and technically speaking, its correct, you can just build a Samurai or a Paladin or a Swashbuckler or what ever with the existing class and just call it a Samurai with some backstory about Bushido and whatever. And thats true you can, but its always very unsatisfying because it doesn't feel distinct. Samurai have a very distinctive aesthetic around them, story tropes, ideology, tone, and just general feel, a Samurai class should be built to mechanically reflect that. Sure historically there wasn't much to separate feudal Samurai from European knights, but in terms of the mythos the feel of Samurai is very different from that of knight, the class is based in a Buddhist/Shinto mythological frame work vs. a Christian Europeon one.
People want to play a Samurai because they want an character with sacred Honor and a sword fetish and the mechanics should reflect that.

2) The Quintessential Samurai
So based on the book (and like all Mongoose books, the balance of this thing is a joke), what would the Samurai's Tier be? What Schools are obviously more or less broken? What obvious stupid incompetence by Mongoose could be easily fixed? Cause those games are this kind of glorious mess, they try out new things but that also produces the fail.
3)Ki Magic
Would it be better to make Samurai a form of Martial Adept or is there system distinctive enough with the Ki system to be interesting in its own right
4) The pathfinder Samurai
I like it, but it don't know if there is enough to it to make the system more fun and more distinctive, I do like that the Mongoose Samurai feels mechanically distinct
5) Building a new Samurai
What are some of the most distinctive Samurai mechanically people know out there that aren't completely horrible? Is there any good D20 adaptations of Legend of the Five Rings other than Oriental Adventures?

[RedMage125]

Lots of responses lets do this

You can just build a Samurai with a different class
I see this line of argument all the time and technically speaking, its correct, you can just build a Samurai or a Paladin or a Swashbuckler or what ever with the existing class and just call it a Samurai with some backstory about Bushido and whatever. And thats true you can, but its always very unsatisfying because it doesn't feel distinct. Samurai have a very distinctive aesthetic around them, story tropes, ideology, tone, and just general feel, a Samurai class should be built to mechanically reflect that. Sure historically there wasn't much to separate feudal Samurai from European knights, but in terms of the mythos the feel of Samurai is very different from that of knight, the class is based in a Buddhist/Shinto mythological frame work vs. a Christian Europeon one.
People want to play a Samurai because they want an character with sacred Honor and a sword fetish and the mechanics should reflect that.

I am curious as to what SPECIFIC tropes you want the class to accomplish? BEcause I genuinely don't know what you mean.
Aesthetic: This is really just the flavoring of what armor and weapons they use, and is covered with something as basic as a new list of armors, and whether they are light, medium, or heavy. And OA has a good list of weapons transparency, as well as 3e sources for which weapons are martial or exotic. So the Visual Aesthetic of a samurai is really just specifics of equipment, with existing proficiency already covering it.
Story Tropes/Tone: I don't see how these are connected with mechanics as deeply as you claim. PErhaps you could clarify?
Ideology: This is really about Bushido. And I agree that you should clarify what Bushido means mechanically, but even then, it's more of a set of guidelines than actual rules. Samurai should favor lawful alignments over chaotic ones, but should not be forbidden from chaotic alignments (I would have classified Musashi as Chaotic).

I don't know what mechanics you feel would distinguish the Samurai from other classes. Some samurai would be best reflected as Rangers, others as the Knight (PHB2), others as Fighters, some even as "berserkers" (Barbarians, but able to read), others with the Samurai class from OA/Rokugan.

As far as "sword fetish", Samurai were more "horse and bow" than "sword" as far as preference in combat. So I don't know what you mean.


2) The Quintessential Samurai
So based on the book (and like all Mongoose books, the balance of this thing is a joke), what would the Samurai's Tier be? What Schools are obviously more or less broken? What obvious stupid incompetence by Mongoose could be easily fixed? Cause those games are this kind of glorious mess, they try out new things but that also produces the fail.
I would say that most Quintessential material defies classification. I have personally seen prestige classes for monk that are simultaneously laughably unusable and hideously broken.


3)Ki Magic
Would it be better to make Samurai a form of Martial Adept or is there system distinctive enough with the Ki system to be interesting in its own right
I would say no, only because there is very little even as far as fantasy tropes to support this, but at the same time, it might be best if you wanted a character who could perform Samurai Jack style feats.


4) The pathfinder Samurai
I like it, but it don't know if there is enough to it to make the system more fun and more distinctive, I do like that the Mongoose Samurai feels mechanically distinct
It was basically a Cavalier with an Eastern flavor bent. Of which I approve.


5) Building a new Samurai
What are some of the most distinctive Samurai mechanically people know out there that aren't completely horrible? Is there any good D20 adaptations of Legend of the Five Rings other than Oriental Adventures?
The book "Rokugan" was an improvement on Oriental Adventures. Not just the Samurai class, but overall. There were also several more in-depth L5R d20 books. The samurai class used XP to enhance Daisho instead of gold (so...it's a base class of the Kensai from CW), and had a few more bonus feats, I think. The book also has a solid Honor system (not too dissimilar from Unearthed Arcana's), which was a better way of tracking player's behavior, rather than change their alignment. Works really only if everyone in the party is on board with it, though (but the book assumes you are playing a L5R game, so...).

[CowardlyPaladin]

I am curious as to what SPECIFIC tropes you want the class to accomplish? BEcause I genuinely don't know what you mean.
Aesthetic: This is really just the flavoring of what armor and weapons they use, and is covered with something as basic as a new list of armors, and whether they are light, medium, or heavy. And OA has a good list of weapons transparency, as well as 3e sources for which weapons are martial or exotic. So the Visual Aesthetic of a samurai is really just specifics of equipment, with existing proficiency already covering it.
Story Tropes/Tone: I don't see how these are connected with mechanics as deeply as you claim. PErhaps you could clarify?
Ideology: This is really about Bushido. And I agree that you should clarify what Bushido means mechanically, but even then, it's more of a set of guidelines than actual rules. Samurai should favor lawful alignments over chaotic ones, but should not be forbidden from chaotic alignments (I would have classified Musashi as Chaotic).

I don't know what mechanics you feel would distinguish the Samurai from other classes. Some samurai would be best reflected as Rangers, others as the Knight (PHB2), others as Fighters, some even as "berserkers" (Barbarians, but able to read), others with the Samurai class from OA/Rokugan.

As far as "sword fetish", Samurai were more "horse and bow" than "sword" as far as preference in combat. So I don't know what you mean.

I would say that most Quintessential material defies classification. I have personally seen prestige classes for monk that are simultaneously laughably unusable and hideously broken.

I would say no, only because there is very little even as far as fantasy tropes to support this, but at the same time, it might be best if you wanted a character who could perform Samurai Jack style feats.

It was basically a Cavalier with an Eastern flavor bent. Of which I approve.

The book "Rokugan" was an improvement on Oriental Adventures. Not just the Samurai class, but overall. There were also several more in-depth L5R d20 books. The samurai class used XP to enhance Daisho instead of gold (so...it's a base class of the Kensai from CW), and had a few more bonus feats, I think. The book also has a solid Honor system (not too dissimilar from Unearthed Arcana's), which was a better way of tracking player's behavior, rather than change their alignment. Works really only if everyone in the party is on board with it, though (but the book assumes you are playing a L5R game, so...).


I am curious as to what SPECIFIC tropes you want the class to accomplish? BEcause I genuinely don't know what you mean.
Aesthetic: This is really just the flavoring of what armor and weapons they use, and is covered with something as basic as a new list of armors, and whether they are light, medium, or heavy. And OA has a good list of weapons transparency, as well as 3e sources for which weapons are martial or exotic. So the Visual Aesthetic of a samurai is really just specifics of equipment, with existing proficiency already covering it.
Story Tropes/Tone: I don't see how these are connected with mechanics as deeply as you claim. PErhaps you could clarify?
Ideology: This is really about Bushido. And I agree that you should clarify what Bushido means mechanically, but even then, it's more of a set of guidelines than actual rules. Samurai should favor lawful alignments over chaotic ones, but should not be forbidden from chaotic alignments (I would have classified Musashi as Chaotic).

I don't know what mechanics you feel would distinguish the Samurai from other classes. Some samurai would be best reflected as Rangers, others as the Knight (PHB2), others as Fighters, some even as "berserkers" (Barbarians, but able to read), others with the Samurai class from OA/Rokugan.

As far as "sword fetish", Samurai were more "horse and bow" than "sword" as far as preference in combat. So I don't know what you mean.

I would say that most Quintessential material defies classification. I have personally seen prestige classes for monk that are simultaneously laughably unusable and hideously broken.

I would say no, only because there is very little even as far as fantasy tropes to support this, but at the same time, it might be best if you wanted a character who could perform Samurai Jack style feats.

It was basically a Cavalier with an Eastern flavor bent. Of which I approve.

The book "Rokugan" was an improvement on Oriental Adventures. Not just the Samurai class, but overall. There were also several more in-depth L5R d20 books. The samurai class used XP to enhance Daisho instead of gold (so...it's a base class of the Kensai from CW), and had a few more bonus feats, I think. The book also has a solid Honor system (not too dissimilar from Unearthed Arcana's), which was a better way of tracking player's behavior, rather than change their alignment. Works really only if everyone in the party is on board with it, though (but the book assumes you are playing a L5R game, so...).

On Flavor
Despite the Sorcerer being basically a variant Wizard just using a different spell system, fluff wise the class is viewed as distinctively. Wizards are nerdy scholars who lock themselves away in towers and study magic from a scientific lenses, looking critically at the magic around them and nodding sagely as they do so, they prepare, they focus, and they thrive on thinking ahead like batman, but are socially awkward and cranky. Sorcerers are descended from Dragons, are dashing/funny because of their charisma, and are spontaneous spur of the moment thinkers. Paladins could easily be a variant fighter but instead are seen as righteous warriors fighting for justice in a hard world.....or self righteous nobs with a stick up their butt depends on who you ask, but the point is that it is distinct. It feels different. When I think "Druid" I imagine a celtic/neo pagan looking person in harmony with nature and with lots of animal friends.

The flavor of a Samurai is not simply a warrior whose Japanese, it is a warrior who is absolutely dedicated to a lord or authority figure, who does the whole zen Buddhist thing of submerging yourself with a task but does it in a way that is both violent and and internally calming. Where your mental dedication and strength of honor grants you greater skill with your blade, and whose internal dedication can grant spiritual powers. In terms of fluff and tone, Quintessential Samurai mostly hits it on the head, the whole thing just feels appropriate. I just don't know about the class's actual mechanics.

Actually I also want the class to not necessarily be tied to Japan, just as OOTs proved that Paladin doesn't have to be European. Think Ghost Dog Way of the Samurai. Or if you have ever read Song of Ice and Fire, some of the Kingsguards or Areo Hotah are non Japanese takes on the Samurai more than a Knight or Paladin, its about subsuming yourself to a greater lord. Obviously not everybody who has the social class of Samurai would be a Samurai (that wasn't even true in real life), so if the Party went to a Japanese based location, there would be a lot of guys and gals running around in Samurai armor with Japanese weapons but many of them would be barbarians, knights, Fighters even Paladins, but a few key ones would be Samurai.

I would argue that the lawful fixation with Samurai isn't necessary, honestly that just makes them sound like Paladins. Ideally the code of the Samurai is one of dedication, loyalty, personal honor, face, and internal spiritualism.

And yes historically Samurai were much more bow/spear/horse warriors, but also historically they were notorious for betraying their lords at a moment's notice, the image of the samurai other than the reality has had this sword fixation in the popular image since the Towagawa shogunate (which yes, of course the Samurai focus on swords more when they are less likely to actually use them/be fielded in armies)


Which is why I like the Mongoose Samurai, its just that.....I'm not the best with balance on the best of times, and knowing Mongoose it is likely a complete bloody mess so that is why I need help with figuring out how to make it useful to my players. I don't want them to feel bored.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Anybody else familiar with this book?

[vasilidor]

managed to borrow a copy to look through. the base class in the book looks like an upgraded fighter, gaining 4 skill points per level, and access to a group of combat feats. the prestige classes, from a pure number crunch point of view, do not seem inherently broken, one way or the other. that said if you are doing a 3.5 game it is in need of an update (is there already an update to 3.5 no idea myself) if for nothing else because of the skill list, and I don't believe some of the feats apply anymore due to rules changes between versions. the differing armor pieces in tools of the trade section is actually rather neat. the magic items seem kind of bland though. the part that really seems useful to me, if for no other reason than to help define the type of samurai concept you want, is the aptly named character concept chapter. you do not really need to use the advantage/disadvantage bits though.

[CowardlyPaladin]

managed to borrow a copy to look through. the base class in the book looks like an upgraded fighter, gaining 4 skill points per level, and access to a group of combat feats. the prestige classes, from a pure number crunch point of view, do not seem inherently broken, one way or the other. that said if you are doing a 3.5 game it is in need of an update (is there already an update to 3.5 no idea myself) if for nothing else because of the skill list, and I don't believe some of the feats apply anymore due to rules changes between versions. the differing armor pieces in tools of the trade section is actually rather neat. the magic items seem kind of bland though. the part that really seems useful to me, if for no other reason than to help define the type of samurai concept you want, is the aptly named character concept chapter. you do not really need to use the advantage/disadvantage bits though.

Yeah never liked Advantages/Disadvantages. I'm hoping to combine the Mongoose Samurai with the Pathfinder and Oriental Adventure one to get something hopefully Tier 3

[Swaoeaeieu]

On Flavor
Despite the Sorcerer being basically a variant Wizard just using a different spell system, fluff wise the class is viewed as distinctively. Wizards are nerdy scholars who lock themselves away in towers and study magic from a scientific lenses, looking critically at the magic around them and nodding sagely as they do so, they prepare, they focus, and they thrive on thinking ahead like batman, but are socially awkward and cranky. Sorcerers are descended from Dragons, are dashing/funny because of their charisma, and are spontaneous spur of the moment thinkers. Paladins could easily be a variant fighter but instead are seen as righteous warriors fighting for justice in a hard world.....or self righteous nobs with a stick up their butt depends on who you ask, but the point is that it is distinct. It feels different. When I think "Druid" I imagine a celtic/neo pagan looking person in harmony with nature and with lots of animal friends.

The flavor of a Samurai is not simply a warrior whose Japanese, it is a warrior who is absolutely dedicated to a lord or authority figure, who does the whole zen Buddhist thing of submerging yourself with a task but does it in a way that is both violent and and internally calming. Where your mental dedication and strength of honor grants you greater skill with your blade, and whose internal dedication can grant spiritual powers. In terms of fluff and tone, Quintessential Samurai mostly hits it on the head, the whole thing just feels appropriate. I just don't know about the class's actual mechanics.

Actually I also want the class to not necessarily be tied to Japan, just as OOTs proved that Paladin doesn't have to be European. Think Ghost Dog Way of the Samurai. Or if you have ever read Song of Ice and Fire, some of the Kingsguards or Areo Hotah are non Japanese takes on the Samurai more than a Knight or Paladin, its about subsuming yourself to a greater lord. Obviously not everybody who has the social class of Samurai would be a Samurai (that wasn't even true in real life), so if the Party went to a Japanese based location, there would be a lot of guys and gals running around in Samurai armor with Japanese weapons but many of them would be barbarians, knights, Fighters even Paladins, but a few key ones would be Samurai.

I would argue that the lawful fixation with Samurai isn't necessary, honestly that just makes them sound like Paladins. Ideally the code of the Samurai is one of dedication, loyalty, personal honor, face, and internal spiritualism.

And yes historically Samurai were much more bow/spear/horse warriors, but also historically they were notorious for betraying their lords at a moment's notice, the image of the samurai other than the reality has had this sword fixation in the popular image since the Towagawa shogunate (which yes, of course the Samurai focus on swords more when they are less likely to actually use them/be fielded in armies)


Which is why I like the Mongoose Samurai, its just that.....I'm not the best with balance on the best of times, and knowing Mongoose it is likely a complete bloody mess so that is why I need help with figuring out how to make it useful to my players. I don't want them to feel bored.

All of those are just flavor text tho. The wizard and sorcerer example for instance can be changed as much as you want. The wizard doesnt need to be a studying old man. Maybe the high Int just means he understands how magic works when he sees it, and thus is able to manipulate it with a little preparation.

Flavortext can be changed to represent whatever you want, as long as you dont mess with the crunchy rules everything is fine. You are the DM, it is more then ok to mess with the image of a class. Player wants to be a honerable samurai? there is no class that forces you to be honerable, thats all just roleplaying and charactar background. Get any kind of melee class, maybe dm fiat him having iaijutsu focus and wham, samurai class.

[CowardlyPaladin]

All of those are just flavor text tho. The wizard and sorcerer example for instance can be changed as much as you want. The wizard doesnt need to be a studying old man. Maybe the high Int just means he understands how magic works when he sees it, and thus is able to manipulate it with a little preparation.

Flavortext can be changed to represent whatever you want, as long as you dont mess with the crunchy rules everything is fine. You are the DM, it is more then ok to mess with the image of a class. Player wants to be a honerable samurai? there is no class that forces you to be honerable, thats all just roleplaying and charactar background. Get any kind of melee class, maybe dm fiat him having iaijutsu focus and wham, samurai class.

Flavor text without mechanical support is less solid and less stratifying, the reason why Wizard and Sorcerer feel different is not just because they have different flavor, but because their mechanics enforce their flavor, the Sorcerer's charisma focus literally reinforces the idea that they draw power from their personalty. The Paladin code instantly makes the Paladin feel like a distinct class rather than a variant fighter. Mechanics and Fluff are both improved when they work in tandem.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Flavor text without mechanical support is less solid and less stratifying, the reason why Wizard and Sorcerer feel different is not just because they have different flavor, but because their mechanics enforce their flavor, the Sorcerer's charisma focus literally reinforces the idea that they draw power from their personalty. The Paladin code instantly makes the Paladin feel like a distinct class rather than a variant fighter. Mechanics and Fluff are both improved when they work in tandem.
Agreed, but you can find such ways without limiting yourself to things with "Samurai" in the title. And without drawing on random third-party books. (Hell, anyone can take Vow of Obedience, though no-one should)

Let's look at the Crusader, say. Armored warriors who, fluff, draw power from unwavering devotion to a cause. Their chassis gives them the ability to delay damage, to hit harder when doing so, and amp up their saves, especially Will and Fort. Their maneuvers make them absolute juggernauts on the battlefield, bolstering and healing their allies and crushing their enemies with single, overwhelming strikes. Sound Samurai-y?

The Warblade, which has an even better set of maneuvers, is described as being absolutely dedicated to the martial arts, and glorying in their employment. Their chassis lets them augment their combat abilities with intelligence, reacting quickly and resisting enemy attempts to control the flow of battle through mundane means-- flanking, tripping, and so on. Their maneuvers are more varied than the Crusader's, but... Diamond Mind, my nomination for the most Samurai thing in the game, is all about pure, perfect Concentration. Literally. It lets you use Concentration checks in place of saving throws and damage rolls; it lets you focus your attention on single foes, lets you launch counterattacks, lets you act quickly and fluidly. Pair this with Iron Heart, which is all about pure martial skills and the occasional "just say no" defense, and Stone Dragon, which is all about planting your feet and refusing to move an inch farther. Samurai? I think yes.

If you don't want to muck around with the Tome of Battle, the Psychic Warrior is a great solid, disciplined fighter type. Psionics can be easily refluffed as ki, at least if you stick to self-enhancement powers. The Mantled Warrior ACF (online) grants you access to a mantle (Complete Psionic), which mechanically means a new set of powers to choose from, but flavorfully means a cause you're devoted yourself to so hard that you get psychic powers out of it. Law, perhaps?

[CowardlyPaladin]

Funny you should mention the Crusader and the Psionic warrior because those to me are mechanically fine classes that I find to be bankrupt of flavor. I mean take the Crusader, in what way is it different from a Paladin or a Knight beyond using the Book of Nine Swords? And if they are some sort of Paladin variant, why do they use a random effect? How does that relate to their powers? Any time I bring up book of Nine swords to my players, they always kind of get swordsage and find warblade a bit of an overlap but they do not get Crusader, they always wind up going "so how is this different from a paladin?" The mechanics and the fluff, what little there is, are completely at adds. Crusader is a bankrupt class in terms of flavor and it just kills the class in my mind, because it has this interesting mechanical set up and is decently balanced as far as marital classes go, but instead of having its own identity it just kinda wanders off to be a paladin rip off and doesn't get its own soul or identity.

The Psionic warrior is a different flavor of bad in my view, because beyond "its a warrior who uses psionics" there isn't very much too it, its just "Oh the guy with the sword who uses his mind' In my games I actually combine it with Soulknife because while Soulknife is mechanically a mess, it is distinct enough flavor wise, though not by much. A psionic warrior should be more than just "I use weapon and my mind" it need to have a distinct identity.

This is why people like monks despite being an utterly broken class, cause Monk is very distinct in terms of flavor, the fluff of mind over mater, of turning your body into an instrument of your will, of finding internal enlightenment is interesting, its different, so people want to play it even though its such a bad class. I mean Spellthief is a bad class and Truenamer is a worse class but how many posts do you see of people feeling bad that Spellthief sucks and they wish it could be fixed because they love the idea of the class? A few but most people don't like Spellthief, nor do they like Lurk, Erudite, or Dragonfire Adept, because they don't have much that makes them distinct. Meanwhile people like the Truenamer because it is really distinct in terms of flavor, even if it is literally the worse class in the game. Seriously look how many threads you get when you search for fixing truenamer or even just how to play a truenamer. Also why did Binder become popular while Hexblade does not. A class is more than just a set of mechanics, it is also a flavor that supports those mechanics, gives it an identity and solidifies it as separate from the others. A sorcerer isn't just a wizard who uses a different method the way that a Clostered Cleric is to the Cleric, it is a different class with a different feel.

I mean that is why Pathfiner put so much effort into making the Oracle so distinct, it wasn't just a spontaneous divine caster with mysterious, it is somebody chosen by the gods in the old greek sense, losing some of their senses and being chosen against their will by fickle gods. Or look of what they did with the Physic classes to make them feel like independent entities.

This is why when you say Paladin people have a general idea of what your talking about, and why Warlock seemingly was able to move into the Core classes, people know what a warlock is.

That is what i want for the Samurai, for the Samurai's flavor to be informed by its mechanics, because yes I could just use a Crusader but how does a randomness factor relate to the notion of Bushido?

[CowardlyPaladin]

So no fans of this book out there? Anybody know an adaptation of Legend of the Five Rings Bushi that actually works?

[ngilop]

pretty much ignore anything about balance anybody says.. why do you ask?

Take a gander and the core only druid class and compare him to the core only figher and tell me how balanced it is that a single class feature renders a whole entire class meaningless. Then take a look at people that claim X 3rd party is not balanced but that 3rd ed itself is. (ps. 3rd ed runs the gamut from actually unplayable (truenamer to completely campaign breaking easy mode wizards et al)


The book is good and brings forth some early ideas that wizard and Paizo picked up on and developed better later on.

If you wanna capture the feel of the samurai just combine the Oriental Adventure and COmplete warrior samurai inot the same class I did as much with a little supernatural boosting on my won samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?278499-Samurai-Re-tool-please-critique) ( i added supernatural effects to the eastern themed classes to differentiate them from their western counterparts)

[RedMage125]

So no fans of this book out there? Anybody know an adaptation of Legend of the Five Rings Bushi that actually works?

Check out the book Rokugan (not to be confused with the one titled "Oriental Adventures"). It's a supplement to OA, so it references some OA stuff, but introduces an Honor system, Void points, Clan feats, Naga race, and more. There are also a number of in-depth d20 L5R books, as I said before. I personally own Way of the Samurai and Way of the Ninja, and they were a great read, if nothing else.

[Grod_The_Giant]

pretty much ignore anything about balance anybody says.. why do you ask?

Take a gander and the core only druid class and compare him to the core only figher and tell me how balanced it is that a single class feature renders a whole entire class meaningless. Then take a look at people that claim X 3rd party is not balanced but that 3rd ed itself is. (ps. 3rd ed runs the gamut from actually unplayable (truenamer to completely campaign breaking easy mode wizards et al)
The main issue with third party of homebrew balance is that it's unknown. The first-party stuff has been toyed with for years; it's not hard to figure out what sorts of problems you might run into with a Monk or Wizard, and when problems do come up solutions are easily on-hand. If a player asks about, oh, a Binder, I can do some quick googling and find a wealth of information on what they can do, how to build one, what sort of complaints are likely to come up. Not so much if someone asks to play, oh, a Quintessential Samurai.