[3.5] Hybsil As A Playable Race?

[Thurbane]

Hybsils (Monsters of Faerun) get an LA of +3.

- Str -2, Dex +6, Con +2, Int +2
- 50 ft base speed
- +2 natural armor
- Bonus feats: Dodge & Mobility
- Shortbow proficiency
- Minor SLAs 1/day (Dancing lights, jump, mirror image & pass without trace)
- See invisibility at will
- Poison immunity
- a few minor skill bonuses

Do you think a lower LA is more appropriate? Stat mods are good, as is poison immunity and see invisibility (especially at lower levels).

Also, what class(es) would you get the best use out of this race with? An Int based caster would appreciate the stat mods.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/mof_gallery/MonFaePG61.jpg

[Technetium43]

In the one game I used them, they were mostly Scouts and Swift Hunters, with a pretty even mix of physical scouts using spring attack, and ranged scouts using shortbows. However, when I used them it was CR based, and not LA because it was a Fields of Blood campaign. They seem like they would be pretty neat in gestalt, but in normal D&D 3 LA is just... too prohibitive. Especially as they don't have the usual Fey DR.

Also Warlock would be pretty nice, especially with not having to spend an invocation on See the Unseen, and Mirror Image helps a lot if forced into melee. Hell, they could probably pull off a pretty neat Glaivelock build with Travel Devotion.

[Thurbane]

So anybody else have any thoughts.

Is this race worth LA +3? What other classes would it be good for?

[daremetoidareyo]

So anybody else have any thoughts.

Is this race worth LA +3? What other classes would it be good for?

LA 2.5. It's a real border case. Do they have rhd?

[Thurbane]

LA 2.5. It's a real border case. Do they have rhd?

No, no RHD.

[daremetoidareyo]

No, no RHD.

LA 3 feels right. It's roughly equivalent to an arcane stunt lesser drow swashbuckler 1/fighter 1/ duskblade 1. That's ECL 3.

Or a level 4 elven sorcerer with only self buffing spells. Which is ECL 4. In any case, all of the benefits can be mimicked by pc options by ecl 3, so long as that duskblade has expeditious retreat

[neriractor]

LA 3 feels right. It's roughly equivalent to an arcane stunt lesser drow swashbuckler 1/fighter 1/ duskblade 1. That's ECL 3.

Or a level 4 elven sorcerer with only self buffing spells. Which is ECL 4. In any case, all of the benefits can be mimicked by pc options by ecl 3, so long as that duskblade has expeditious retreat

they can, but at ECL 4 (wich is when they start to be played with 3 LA and no HD) they have the one HD worth of HP saves and skillpoints against the several HD of the people that by your account can already do everything a Hybsil can.

TLDR: if daremetoidareyo is right about the equivalence of classes to these races it is definitely underpowered at LA +3.

[J-H]

I would consider calling it LA+1 or LA+2, but sticking it with a pair of mediocre racial hit dice as compensation.

[Technetium43]

2 Fey HD + 1 LA seems pretty reasonable. If no HD, then at most I would go +2 LA. And even then, only in gestalt.

[Inevitability]

Somewhere between +1 and +2 LA, I'd say.

[Rizban]

Looking at the actual entry, it looks like they tried to make the LA+3 functionally worth 3 HD. By that I mean, much as if it had picked up 3 RHD, it has 2 feats, a few spells, some skill boosts, etc. Really, using the metric WotC supposedly used to assign LA, it's hard to justify anything lower. At the same time it's really not worth the 3 LA.

Looking at the most relevant traits: it gets +8 overall to ability scores, +20 ft movement over other creatures its size, two (bad) feats, mirror image SLA, at-will supernatural see invisibility, and immunity to all poisons, which effectively means that it also has Poison Use, i.e. it never risks accidentally poisoning itself when using poison.

I'd personally say that this shorter clocks in at a +2, but the high ability scores and at-will see invis put it high enough to being right on the verge of +3. All of the other odds and ends bump it up. This, unfortunately, makes it mostly unplayable as a PC. Now, this, of course, ignores RHD, as it has none. It really needs to be an ECL 3 race. Whether that means 2 RHD and a +1 LA or 3 RHD is debatable, though I would tend towards the former.

Were I writing this up, I'd probably go with 2 RHD +1 LA. Then I'd nerf the ability scores slightly (perhaps -2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int), keep the speed and nat AC, drop Mobility, keep SLAs the same and see invis, keep the poison immunity and skill buffs. Still not fantastic, but I think that's a lot more reasonable and something I'd certainly consider playing.

To get it down to just a +1 LA, it really needs to have no more than a +2 total mod on scores, dump the nat AC, reduce speed to 40, drop some SLAs (i.e. mirror image), make see invis either 1/day or 3/day, make it +2 vs poisons instead of immune, and lose both bonus feats.

[ExLibrisMortis]

To get it down to just a +1 LA, it really needs to have no more than a +2 total mod on scores, dump the nat AC, reduce speed to 40, drop some SLAs (i.e. mirror image), make see invis either 1/day or 3/day, make it +2 vs poisons instead of immune, and lose both bonus feats.
I disagree. The feat races (human/strongheart halfling/azurin/silverbrow human) are all better than that. Hybsil are perfectly fine at LA +2 as-is, and don't need to drop nearly that much to be LA +1.

Poison Immunity, skill bonuses, Dodge & Mobility, shortbow proficiency, jump, pass without trace - all work out to almost nothing. What's left:

- Str -2, Dex +6, Con +2, Int +2
- 50 ft base speed
- +2 natural armor
- Minor SLAs 1/day (Dancing lights, mirror image)
- See invisibility at will

Good stats for a scout, to be sure - 50' speed allows Tumble + Improved Skirmish to work easily. Comparing a hybsil scout 1 to a grey elf scout 3, we see that the pure scout gets +2 extra base attack, an extra feat, more hp (despite con penalty), Uncanny Dodge/Trackless Step, similar saves, similar Hide/Move Silently, lower AC, 10' lower speed, and no see invisibility/mirror image. I think that's a fair trade. Maybe hybsil are a little ahead for an archery scout, but that's fair.

Of course, hybsil have absolutely nothing on really strong LA +1 races, such as primordial half-giants. For reference, those have -2 str -2 dex +4 int +4 cha, powerful build, at-will invisibility, +2 power points, minor skill/save bonuses, and +1 CL to all SLAs.

[VisitingDaGulag]

At LA+1 I'd consider it. Just the speed in the dex. Everything else is meh.

I would not play it at LA+2 unless it had some amazing supporting PrC or something. Of course, this race probably has zero material support.

[Thurbane]

I would not play it at LA+2 unless it had some amazing supporting PrC or something. Of course, this race probably has zero material support.

I think there are a handful of Fey-only feats, but not sure any would benefit this race very much.

[remetagross]

I'd say LA +1 or +2 too, and I'd advocate for one of those pesky PrC/feats that ask for Dodge and Mobility as prerequisite feats, that would be a great way to make those crappy bonus feats worthwhile! Like Spring Attack or Dervish.