Looking at building a melee char, abusing CHA shillelagh

[krunchyfrogg]

Level 10, rolled stats.

How's this look?

Level 1: half elf paladin

STR 15 (14+1) DEX 7 CON 14 (13+1) INT 10 WIS 11 CHA 18 (16+2)

Level 2 paladin

Level 3-5 warlock, pact of tome, shillelaghs as a cantrip so I can use CHA in combat.

6-10 dragon sorcerer.

I'll probably boost CHA to 20 at char level 9 (sorcerer 4). This maximizes my combat and spellcasting stat.

I'll pick up booming blade and green flame blade so the lack of multiple attacks is eased up on a bit.

If I use the staff as my spellcasting focus, I can still cast while holding the staff in one hand and using a shield in the other, right?

Am I better off ditching those three warlock levels and continuing the sorcerer?

[Potato_Priest]

I believe you can use your staff as a focus using it in the one hand. You'd have to make sure it was a wooden staff, and that you had your divine focus (paladin) on your shield if you want to use paladin spells though.

[BW022]

Level 10, rolled stats.

I'll pick up booming blade and green flame blade so the lack of multiple attacks is eased up on a bit.

[quote]
If I use the staff as my spellcasting focus, I can still cast while holding the staff in one hand and using a shield in the other, right?


Up to the DM. Sage advice is as follows:

If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
(http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-spellcasting)


In short, if a spell has both a somatic and material component (for which you can use a focus for), you can cast the spell while holding the focus in one hand. A staff can be an arcane focus. You are fine casting SM spells, but not S spells without M. You could cast invisibility (VSM) with a staff in one hand and a shield in the other. You couldn't cast eldritch blast (VS) with a staff and shield since you can't cast somatic (only) spells without a free hand.

The usual way around this is taking the warcaster feat. You could try selecting extremely specific spells and/or stowing and retrieving your staff when needed, but that gets annoying in tracking these and in hand switching.

I have a cleric (nature)/ bladelock character and typically I keep my staff stowed and stay back casting or blasting -- not having to worry about it. When I enter melee... I draw the staff, cast shillelagh, and then don't worry about casting anymore. However, I do keep spell lists and put a * next to spells which can't be cast without a free hand (i.e. S without M spells and cantrips).




Am I better off ditching those three warlock levels and continuing the sorcerer?

Your call. Your character (paladin/2, warlock/3, sorcerer/5). You are a 6th-level caster, plus 2 2nd-level warlock spells. Pure caster has access to 5th-level spells. If you are a caster, I don't like being more than one spell level behind a pure caster. If you are a pure melee character, I don't like not having multiple attacks.

I would recommend you look up some CR 10 monsters and see how well you'd fair against them. A stone golem (178hp, two +10 attacks, avg. 19 per hit). What spells and tactics would you use against it? How much damage can you do before it drops you? How many resources would that use up? Then... try a paladin/2 sorcerer/8 build and imagine if it would be easier with great invisibility or stoneskin. Then try paladin/5 sorcerer/5 and imagine if it would be better attacking twice per round with smite.

[Rysto]

If you're committed to the concept of a CHA-based shillelagh/smite build, maybe try Paladin/Lore Bard? It takes a lot longer to come online, but if you're starting at level 10 that's not an issue. One of the big benefits is that you don't slow down your spell slot and spell progression with Warlock levels. Of course, you do lose all of the fun that comes with metamagic by dropping Sorcerer entirely.

Edit: Oh, but GFB and BB aren't on the Bard list, are they? Having to blow both of your Level 6 magical secrets on cantrips feels like a huge waste, but I'm not a huge fan of delaying your spellcasting any further with a Sorcerer or Warlock 1-level dip. I guess you could take Magic Initiate (Warlock) for GFB, EB and Hex?

[rooneg]

I have a cleric (nature)/ bladelock character and typically I keep my staff stowed and stay back casting or blasting -- not having to worry about it. When I enter melee... I draw the staff, cast shillelagh, and then don't worry about casting anymore. However, I do keep spell lists and put a * next to spells which can't be cast without a free hand (i.e. S without M spells and cantrips).

Ok, I'm just curious. What exactly does "stowed" mean here. It's a 5 or 6 foot long stick. Where are you keeping it that you can reasonably expect to pull it out and still have time to cast a spell in your turn? I mean I get it if you're using a club for Shillelagh, but you specifically said staff.

[FrancisBean]

Ok, I'm just curious. What exactly does "stowed" mean here. It's a 5 or 6 foot long stick. Where are you keeping it that you can reasonably expect to pull it out and still have time to cast a spell in your turn? I mean I get it if you're using a club for Shillelagh, but you specifically said staff.

If by "bladelock" he means what I'd mean, a Warlock with Pact of the Blade, the staff is probably his pact weapon. He can stow it in hyperspace and summon it when he wants it. Yes, it's an action to summon the weapon, but Shillelagh is only a bonus action to cast.

[Klorox]

If you go paladin 2/sorcerer 8, you have the option to boost STR instead of CHA and have it up to 19 (you'll have the extra ASI to play with).

At level 10, is your DM giving you a magical weapon?

[djreynolds]

I would add in 3 levels of bard for expertise in athletics

1 to shove with shield master
2-- because I would look to disarm you and higher athletics check might prevent that, barring a battlemaster which is a strength saving throw versus his DC and not based on a skill contest

[Potato_Priest]

Ok, I'm just curious. What exactly does "stowed" mean here. It's a 5 or 6 foot long stick. Where are you keeping it that you can reasonably expect to pull it out and still have time to cast a spell in your turn? I mean I get it if you're using a club for Shillelagh, but you specifically said staff.

Same place you store a maul to whip it out and make 2 attacks on your turn, I suspect, but the realism aspects of weapon drawing are not the point of this thread.

I must say that I'm surprised that you''re taking paladin to 2 before switching. You're clearly going into it at level 1 for the armor proficiency, but with such a mediocre strength score, I'm fairly sure I'd want to get shillelagh as fast as possible, and come back for the smite. I suppose it depends on how often you have to fight in a day. More fights per day: get your at will shillelagh faster, less fights, smites will do nicely.
Also, have you considered just 2 more levels of warlock for 3rd level spells and an ability score improvement? It would most likely help you perform better in the short term, so unless you are starting at level 20, it might be a good idea. A personal motto of mine when building is this: It doesn't matter how good or how strong the end game result will be if you die right now.

Edit: Ah, you're starting at level 10. Well, you probably made the right decisions then. Most of my post was about the order you should take things in, not the amount.

[Sir cryosin]

Just play a lv10 valor bard with sheleighle and a smite spell. Also pick up Pam feat for the bonus action attack that went from a d4 to d8 thanks to sheleighly. That's 3 attacks pick up haste later and your getting 4 attacks.

[CaptainSarathai]

Just play a lv10 valor bard with sheleighle and a smite spell. Also pick up Pam feat for the bonus action attack that went from a d4 to d8 thanks to sheleighly. That's 3 attacks pick up haste later and your getting 4 attacks.

1. Smite spell is not quite a Smite (up to +5d8)
2. Pal2/Valor18 would still get 9th level spells, just fewer slots.
3. PAM is always a d4 for the bonus, I think they covered in Sage Advice that the d8 improvement only works for the primary end.
4. Haste and Smite Spells are both concentration and therefore can't coexist.
---

Remember that if UA is legal, you can snag Undying Light Patron for +Cha to Fire.

[coredump]

I think the advice is all over the place, because it isn't clear what you are trying to do with this PC.

Do you want to be in melee most of the time? Casting? Using Smite a lot?

How do you envision playing this PC, and which aspects are important to you?

[Klorox]

I think the advice is all over the place, because it isn't clear what you are trying to do with this PC.

Do you want to be in melee most of the time? Casting? Using Smite a lot?

How do you envision playing this PC, and which aspects are important to you?

I can't speak for the OP, but it looks like he's taking that Paladin/Sorcerer idea from the guide, but adding in shillelagh through tomelock to ignore needing a high attack stat.

Imho, if I'm right, it looks like you're spreading yourself too thin by doing that.

[krunchyfrogg]

I can't speak for the OP, but it looks like he's taking that Paladin/Sorcerer idea from the guide, but adding in shillelagh through tomelock to ignore needing a high attack stat.

Imho, if I'm right, it looks like you're spreading yourself too thin by doing that.

Yeah that's basically it.

If I dump the idea, I'm stuck with a 15 strength for my attacks. Maybe I can bump strength if I take your advice and go 2/8. Be cuz I'll have an extra asi from sorc 8

[bid]

STR 15 (14+1) DEX 7 CON 14 (13+1) INT 10 WIS 11 CHA 18 (16+2)
If you can adjust to Str16 Dex7+1 Con13+1 Int10 Wis11 Cha14+2, you can drop the 3 tomelock levels.

Still, undying light patron adds Cha damage to GFB at level 1. Much earlier than draconic 6. So the tomelock dip works fine really.