The Enchanter's Hypnotic Gaze can be used in this situation?

[rigolgm]

Hypnotic Gaze is a 2nd level special ability of Wizards from the School of Enchantment.

Let's imagine an Enchanter has been shoved in a chainmail shirt (to block him using spells) and tied-up by a band of angry orcs.

If an orc gets within 5 feet (the Enchanter's Gaze range) I believe the Enchanter can still attempt to charm the orc. Aftrer all, Hypnotic Gaze is definitely not a spell - so isn't blocked by wearing armour.

Also once it is hypnotized I presume the Enchanter has advantage on interaction with the orc, just like a normal 'charmed' condition? After all, the Gaze's description says the target must succeed on a saving throw "or be charmed by you until the end of your next turn" (when you can retain the control with an action). It adds "the charmed creature's speed drops to 0 and the creature is incapacitated and visibly dazed".

I'd want to:
1) Charm the orc with the Gaze.
2) Ask it to untie the Enchanter (either simply because it's charmed and so sees the Enchanter as an acquaintance, or perhaps with a Deception or Persuasion roll ... presumaby at an advantage).
3) Let it untie the Enchanter.

My question is, what happens in the last bit? The Enchanter presumably has to stop 'incapacitating' the orc to let it do the untying... but then that ends the Gaze, so it will presumably be angry that the Enchanter tried to control it. Or does the Persuasion/Deception attempt still persist if the Enchanter rolled well enough (I guess it'd need a high roll to persuade an orc to let it go - especially if it became annoyed - but maybe the Enchanter can still keep the results of the roll, done with advantage, even if the orc is no longer charmed)? Or... can the orc still do small tasks like untying a Enchanter even while incapacitated (I'm pretty sure it can't)?

Any ideas welcome. My suspicion is that the Enchanter is stuck unless it makes a fantastic Deception/Persuasion roll, and that 'advantage' can't count towards it because the orc will have to be un-charmed before it can untie. I'm happy to be proved wrong, as I may be playing an Enchanter soon.

[Caelestion]

The orc has movement 0 and cannot take actions or reactions. How are you expecting it to do anything?

That is: it's a hypnotic effect, not charm person under a different name.

[Plaguescarred]

Hypnotic Gaze is not a spell and therefore can be used while wearing an armor you are not proficient with.
Once hypnotized this way, the target is incapacitated and thus cannot take actions or reactions so unless the DM says that untying a rope is an item interaction that doesn't take an action, the orc won't be able to do it even if you ask him.

So if it can't free you, you'll have to try it yourself and run away if successful. Because maintaining the Hypnotic Gaze also takes an action, you won't be able to do both though. Since the target is charmed until the end of your next turn, you will be able to try to untie yourself on your next turn rather than maintain the Gaze and if you succeed and flee up to your speed, the Gaze will end once you move more than 5 feet away.

Contrary to Charm Person, once the Hypnotic Gaze ends the target doesn't know it was charmed by you but the run should be short though, as the orc should easily be able to move up to you on it's next urn and even attempt to attack, grab or shovel you to the ground.

It would be better if you have a spell moving you that is usable as a bonus action, such as Misty Step, that could help you distance the orc more otherwise charming it this way doesn't seem all that useful in this situation.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, this ability is far more powerful when it nets action economy. ie when you're with your party. It's not a strictly combat ability, but that's one of its most powerful uses.

[rigolgm]

Thanks all. That all seems good.

Can I just check one thing that was said. The ability clearly says it "charms" the opponent. Regardless of what the separate "charm person" spell does, "charmed" is also a condition (at the back of the handbook) that conveys advantage on social interaction.

So might it be possible to ask the hypnotised orc to instruct a colleague to untie the Enchanter? Or is that still using actions of the Enchanter or orc that they don't have (because one is hypnotising and one is hypnotised). The rules do say the victim is "visibly dazed", though, so I doubt it would be convincing in any case.

D&D rules do permit various small things (holding up a lantern or whatever) that don't count as actions. And being incapacitated doesn't stop speech. But is negotiating an untying something that could be done without using actions. Probably not, I concede.

[Vogonjeltz]

Thanks all. That all seems good.

Can I just check one thing that was said. The ability clearly says it "charms" the opponent. Regardless of what the separate "charm person" spell does, "charmed" is also a condition (at the back of the handbook) that conveys advantage on social interaction.

So might it be possible to ask the hypnotised orc to instruct a colleague to untie the Enchanter? Or is that still using actions of the Enchanter or orc that they don't have (because one is hypnotising and one is hypnotised). The rules do say the victim is "visibly dazed", though, so I doubt it would be convincing in any case.

D&D rules do permit various small things (holding up a lantern or whatever) that don't count as actions. And being incapacitated doesn't stop speech. But is negotiating an untying something that could be done without using actions. Probably not, I concede.

You could definitely provide instructions and make an ask of the Orc with advantage, of course the Orc was probably hostile, so it's going to be a long road to hoe, but you could hypothetically sway it to becoming friendly after a bit and willingly untie you once it was no longer charmed.

[Plaguescarred]

Yeah you could always ask the hypnotized orc, but he can't move and would have to shout his demand to other orcs if they aren't near him. Personally i'd ask for a Charisma (Persuasion) check with for you since the orc is charmed, and with disadvantage to the orc to reflect the altered state of the orc, especially if he is not one in command.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yeah you could always ask the hypnotized orc, but he can't move and would have to shout his demand to other orcs if they aren't near him. Personally i'd ask for a Charisma (Persuasion) check with for you since the orc is charmed, and with disadvantage to the orc to reflect the altered state of the orc, especially if he is not one in command.

This made me think of a (reasonable) example, where the enchanter might use hypnotic gaze and then complain to their captor that the bonds are too tight, and request some loosening. They would have to make a Charisma (persuade or deception) check, but with advantage, and presumably against a hostile creature, but that seems like the kind of thing which just might succeed, with the Orc loosening bonds a bit once the incapacitation wears off. (Or if it fails they might slap the prisoner for speaking)

[xyianth]

Just for curiosity's sake, how did the band of orcs 'shove' him into a chain shirt? It takes 5 minutes to don medium armor. Was the enchanter unconscious at the time? I ask because I want to make sure I am not missing a useful trick to disabling casters somewhere.

Even with hypnotic gaze, it takes 1 minute to doff medium armor. That enchanter is pretty screwed.

[Drackolus]

Technically, skill checks require an action. Many tables allow charisma checks, however.

[Plaguescarred]

Technically, skill checks require an action. Many tables allow charisma checks, however.Technically they don't. Some task that are performed with an associated skill check may or may not use an action depending on what it is. Many skill check don't necessarily require an action such as one to recall info, detect or deduct things, opposing contests, influence others during talk, keep balance etc...

[Mellack]

Personally, I think even though the orc is charmed, they do not have the charmed condition. Much the same way that when you hit a creature with poision, very rarely will it impose the poisioned condition.

[The Zoat]

Personally, I think even though the orc is charmed, they do not have the charmed condition. Much the same way that when you hit a creature with poision, very rarely will it impose the poisioned condition.

Generally, those occasions don't have text specifically saying that the target "becomes poisoned", so I'm fairly sure that interpretation is not RAI.

[rigolgm]

Exactly. The Hypnotic Gaze ability wouldn't say - twice - that the target is 'charmed' on a failed save unless it was intended to cause a 'charmed' condition.

[Tanarii]

Absolutely it applies the charmed condition. Unless you think Charm Person also doesn't apply the charmed condition? it doesn't say 'condition' either, just that the target is charmed by you.

[Saeviomage]

Personally, I think even though the orc is charmed, they do not have the charmed condition. Much the same way that when you hit a creature with poision, very rarely will it impose the poisioned condition.

..unless it says that the target is poisoned. In which case it definitely does.

I think that the caster can:
1. Hypnotize the orc
2. Make a deception, persuasion or intimidation check with advantage from the charmed condition on their next turn
3. The orc will them be freed at the end of this turn
4. The orc may then respond to the deception/persuasion/intimidation check. Note that even a success might not free you. Either way, they do not necessarily realize that they were hypnotized, but this might vary from DM to DM. Flavour wise, I think there's a strong case against them noticing.

[Vogonjeltz]

..unless it says that the target is poisoned. In which case it definitely does.

I think that the caster can:
1. Hypnotize the orc
2. Make a deception, persuasion or intimidation check with advantage from the charmed condition on their next turn
3. The orc will them be freed at the end of this turn
4. The orc may then respond to the deception/persuasion/intimidation check. Note that even a success might not free you. Either way, they do not necessarily realize that they were hypnotized, but this might vary from DM to DM. Flavour wise, I think there's a strong case against them noticing.

According to sage advice the creature wouldn't notice non obvious magic unless they saw the creature cast it, suggestion is the case example given wherein the creature would just remember the request, but not that it was magically influenced.

[Saeviomage]

According to sage advice the creature wouldn't notice non obvious magic unless they saw the creature cast it, suggestion is the case example given wherein the creature would just remember the request, but not that it was magically influenced.

Yeah, but I think in general everything to do with noticing use of abilities and magic is left up to the DM, and the book is very sparse on detail. A DM could easily say that the V component of suggestion is in addition to telling the creature what to do, and that it needs to be screamed at the top of your voice.

This ability doesn't even have that much... it's appearance is entirely up to the DM to decide.