Optimizing my new Balladin (Bard/Paladin)

[shayword]

Hello all and a happy new year to you!

I'm new to this game and thought I should gather some information from seasoned veterans on the interwebs.

I've read in more than a few places that people should "just pick one or the other" but I feel like a bard/paladin multiclass fits the idea of my character and my playstyle (I hope).
I really just want to learn about it's potential and optimize as much as I can. We're playing Out of the Abyss and I'm super excited because the campaign is highly regarded as a good one and the Underdark seems like an awesome place(deadly, but awesome).

So here's the info so far:

Name: Sevorin
Race: Elf(Drow)
Gender:Male
Height: 5'4
Weight: 115lb



Strength: 13
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 11
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 17



Here's a few pieces of information that I was kind of going by:

Some quotes from a message board:
"I've been toying around with a Paladin/Bard mutliclass character in a campaign and found him to be shockingly effective. The Paladin/Bard is a jack of all trades of the highest caliber. He can diplomacy, he can fight, he can tank, he can heal, and he can buff. He trades off some early level efficacy for a mid to late-game punch.

Most optimal design I've come up with thus far:
Level 1: Half Elf Paladin 1. Using a 27 point buy and getting 15/10/13/8/12/14 gives you, post-Half-Elf bonuses, 16/10/14/8/12/16. Right now, you're a quite powerful Paladin with a solid 6 skill proficiencies.
Level 2: Paladin 1/Bard 1. You get an extra skill. Jack of All Trades boosts otherwise lackluster initiative.
Level 4: Paladin 1/Bard 3 (College of Lore). Expertise in Athletics makes you a knockdown/grapple/control machine. Bardic Inspiration and Cutting Words further adds to your battlefield control. Skilled gives you an additional skill proficiencies.
Level 7: Paladin 4/Bard 3: You're worse than a regular fighter in pure damage but you support pretty well. 18 strength and Great Weapon Fighting is enough to deal some serious damage. Bardic Inspiration is a solid way to use bonus actions.
Level 9: Paladin 6/Bard 3: Extra attack and divine smite means your athletics knockdown is a real opportunity for you to crit on an attack, smacking them with 10d8 of Divine Smite. You and creatures near you get your Charisma bonus to their saving throws.
Level 10+: Increase bard until you're done. Get a Charisma bonus at this level if you didn't at level 7.
Level 12: Solid spell pickups here are Shield, boosting AC up to a staggering 23 with full plate, and Haste.

Just so we're clear, at level 10, a Paladin 6/Bard 4 gets Bardic Inspiration, Divine Smite, 7 levels of caster spell slots, heavy armor, shields, a fighting style, an extra attack, 10 skill proficiencies (2 of which have expertise), 1 Instrument proficiency, Jack of All Trades on the remaining skills, the option of Cure Wounds or Healing Word, Lay on Hands, Channel Divinity, and likely some other stuff I'm forgetting about.

I chose the Oath of Devotion for my Paladin because of the Sacred Weapon: getting +5 to my to-hit brings my level 10 to-hit up to +13 assuming no magical bonuses. The Lesser Restoration also seems like a great way to save on a known spell slot."

Thoughts?"

and the reply to it:
"You don't get Jack of All Trades until Bard 2 (you show it as acquired at Bard 1). But otherwise, yeah Bard and Paladin combo well. Any time you mix two classes that mechanically benefit from the same ability score (in this case, Cha), the efficiency will deliver good results.

One thing to consider is Shield Master. Since you're going the melee route and have access to Expertise, it makes a whole lot of sense to leverage that Expertise to acquire Shield Master's bonus action Shove. Especially since Cutting Words will all but guarantee success. Also, this character would benefit from the bonus to Dex saves."




We currently have a big and bad vengeance pally in our group and I would like to be a little more support while also having some tankiness. I also love the idea of being a very dexterous grappler and disabler. I'm not 100% set on all this so if you guys have any advice or ideas for how I can change it, please be my guest!

Thanks for your time!
-Shay

[sepercrod]

If you are starting at Paladin level 1, you are looking at a very long wait for extra attack if you hold out for level 9 like the post suggests. I would advise going Paladin all the way to 6 then starting Bard levels.

Valor Bard 2.0 seems to be what you're going with here, and Paladin 6 is a decent break point if you aren't interested in 3rd level Paladin spells.

I would suggest looking into Oath of the Crown if you're considering tankiness with such a high Charisma score.

[shayword]

Thanks so much. Looking into it now!

[shayword]

I didn't see a whole lot on Oath of the Crown but I did see some. What benefit does high charisma give?

Also Valor Bard 2.0 does seem like what I'm aiming for, but I only saw one short post about it. Just take Paladin to 6 and then go Bard?
What skills should I aim at early as a Paladin leveling if I'm aiming toward that?

[Specter]

If you go the Valor Bard way, you could just take 2 Paladin levels for smites and be done with it. That's what I did at least, served me well.

[sepercrod]

Oath of the Crown takes off at level 9 when you get spirit guardians, and that's too high for what you're wanting.

2 levels of Paladin is another solid choice, and you would able to support your party sooner with Bard levels.

[Gignere]

Oath of the Crown takes off at level 9 when you get spirit guardians, and that's too high for what you're wanting.

2 levels of Paladin is another solid choice, and you would able to support your party sooner with Bard levels.

Why bother with Crown when bard can steal spirit guardians.

[JAL_1138]

If you go the Valor Bard way, you could just take 2 Paladin levels for smites and be done with it. That's what I did at least, served me well.

It does work nicely. I'm playing one of these as well. You lose the level 6 bonus to saves (which is a fantastic ability, don't get me wrong), Channel Divinity, the pool of points for Lay On Hands, and most of the nicer lower-level Paladin spells, but you don't lose Extra Attack, only lose one level of spellcasting on the multiclass slots table (compared to three for Paladin 6), get 9th-level spells, pick up Heavy Armor proficiency, pick up a Fighting Style, and get the ability to Smite when you need. It makes a Valor Bard much more...er...valorous.

[shayword]

So that would be level 1 and 2 Paladin and the rest Bard? It sounds pretty good as well. Is that what they mean by Valor Bard 2.0? Also, Oath of the Crown does seem awesome, just seems like most of it's spells are very situational... could be wrong.

[Specter]

So that would be level 1 and 2 Paladin and the rest Bard? It sounds pretty good as well. Is that what they mean by Valor Bard 2.0? Also, Oath of the Crown does seem awesome, just seems like most of it's spells are very situational... could be wrong.

Both Paladin 2/Valor Bard X and Paladin 6/Lore Bard X can work. It really comes to whether you prefer:

A) More spells, more spell slots earlier, and Combat Inspiration;
B) Oath feature, Aura of Protection and Cutting Words.

[shayword]

Both Paladin 2/Valor Bard X and Paladin 6/Lore Bard X can work. It really comes to whether you prefer:

A) More spells, more spell slots earlier, and Combat Inspiration;
B) Oath feature, Aura of Protection and Cutting Words.

If i went A, which weapon(s) would I want? Would B be Sword and Board?

[JAL_1138]

So that would be level 1 and 2 Paladin and the rest Bard? It sounds pretty good as well. Is that what they mean by Valor Bard 2.0? Also, Oath of the Crown does seem awesome, just seems like most of it's spells are very situational... could be wrong.

From what I gather, "Valor Bard 2.0" means "bard with martial capabilities that isn't a pure VB," rather than specifically the P2/VB18 multiclass. Basically, getting to the same concept as the Valor Bard subclass—a combat-focused bard—another way, that arguably offers some improvements in certain areas.

There's many ways to get there. Paladin 6/Lore 14 is a solid way, for example. You trade high-level casting and some spell slots for the Lore Bard's extra skill proficiencies, Cutting Words, more lower-level Paladin spells, and the fantastic "+Cha to saving throws" level 6 aura.

EDIT: Specter beat me to it. Typing on a cell phone is slow.

[Specter]

If i went A, which weapon(s) would I want? Would B be Sword and Board?

I'd be careful with sword and board for those bard spell with somatic components, unless you save room for War Caster, of course. A greatsword should be fine.

[shayword]

I'd be careful with sword and board for those bard spell with somatic components, unless you save room for War Caster, of course. A greatsword should be fine.

I would do Sword and Board if I needed to, but greatsword sounds more like what my character would have. I also like the idea of a 2 handed flail or mace if that's possible but any two-hander would fit.

Also thank you all for your help it's been huge for me.

[Specter]

I would do Sword and Board if I needed to, but greatsword sounds more like what my character would have. I also like the idea of a 2 handed flail or mace if that's possible but any two-hander would fit.

Also thank you all for your help it's been huge for me.

Hey, don't mention it.

[JAL_1138]

I would do Sword and Board if I needed to, but greatsword sounds more like what my character would have. I also like the idea of a 2 handed flail or mace if that's possible but any two-hander would fit.

Also thank you all for your help it's been huge for me.

I like to take the Polearm Master feat and use a halberd or glaive, for the bonus action attack and the opportunity attack on an enemy that enters reach, as another option. It competes with several spells and features that use bonus actions, though.

Either that or a greatsword does fine.

Glad to help!