Help building an NPC party for webcomic

[danielxcutter]

So... Yeah.

I've got plans for making an OotS-style webcomic, and one of the important parts is a legendary NPC adventuring party, all at ECL 24. I've decided on some of their builds, but I still need a bit of help.

What I've got so far is this:

-Human multiclass martial adept, mostly based on Darrin's Archon of Nine. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7627408#post7627408) No dump stats - all of them will have positive bonuses, and he'll have a Belt of Magnificence(+6 to all stats). Legacy Weapon is undecided but likely will have the "Able to be used as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon" ability that the Legacy version of the Sun Blade from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft does. Feats have been chosen. Oh, and he'll have a pretty good amount of ranks in UMD(a class skill for Legacy Champion).

-Elan Ranger/Psion(Egoist)/Slayer, loosely based on the famous "King of Smack" build, good at both psionics and melee combat. Not much more really needed for this character.

-Elf Wizard/Druid/Mystic Theurge/Arcane Hierophant. Yes, unfairly powerful, but I know. There are going to be lots of drama-preserving handicaps, partly in the form of unoptimal build choices(not on the level of "barring Conjuration" though), personality flaws(such as a lack of confidence and being too emotional, for example), and having at least three seperate organizations keeping an eye on him(he is the equivalent of a walking nuke in terms of potential danger, after all).

-Half-orc Fighter/Barbarian. Yes, I know Thog from Order of the Stick is also a Half-orc Fighter/Barbarian, but this guy couldn't be even more different in terms of personality. Probably going to be a charger build and use a maul of some other hammer-like weapon.

The above choices are more or less set in concrete. However, I'm going to make this a party of seven, so I still need three more characters.

Required:

-Party face, with Charisma-based class features. Thinking of Bard or Warlock.

-Incarnum user, as the main tank. Thinking of Warforged Incarnate, but Incarnates don't get heavy armor proficiencies or shield proficiencies, right? And a Soulborn isn't powerful enough to keep with the others. Furthermore, Ironsoul Forgemaster is out because there's one in the PC party.

-Ranged damage dealer. I'd love to make an archer, but archery kinda blows. Not that throwing is much better, since I'm looking for a Dexterity-based thrower(so Brutal Throw and Hulking Hurler is flat-out)... Rogue wouldn't be bad... except that Order of the Stick, Murphy's Law, and Our Little Adventure all have PC archer Rogues. Levels in Rogue isn't totally out, but straight Rogue? Nope.



So yeah. A little help, guys?

[Inevitability]

Killoren battle sorcerer with Charming The Arrow is charisma-SAD. In addition, there's a ton of sorcerer spells augmenting archery.

If you're up for some slight cheese, make them an unseelie fey star elf. +4 racial charisma, flight and charisma synergy, in addition to being able to dip Arcane Archer with all awesomeness that opens up. The only downside is the huge constitution hit, though that can be patched up with dragonborn or general magic stuff.

[Tiri]

Why not have both Bard and Warlock for the party face? Warlock, with levels of Bard and Sublime Chord, then use Eldritch Theurge.

[Gruftzwerg]

I would love to see a build I mentioned a few days ago in another thread.

warlock 12 / Chameleon 2 / Effigy Master 1 / X

The build could fill the craft role. The floating feat of Chameleon can be used for Raise Undead and crafting while downtimes and be changed into something offensive when heading out to adventures. Together with Effigy Master you have a minion army and can even equip em with magical stuff.

The build could be the face and the ranged damage dealer.

[lylsyly]

-Party face, with Charisma-based class features. Thinking of Bard or Warlock.

Dragonfire Adept can do both Face and Battlefield Control if built right.

just my 2 coppers
YMMV

[WhamBamSam]

Piggy Knowles' Archer Build Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?284283-Piggy-Knowles-Archer-Build-Thread) is an excellent resource for ranged optimization.

For a Dex-based thrower, I rather like the cocktail of Shadow Blade and Dead Eye for Dex x2 to damage with thrown daggers. Add Hit-and-Run Fighter and it's up to Dex x3 against enemies denied Dex to AC. Something like this, perhaps, assuming no multiclass penalties.

Elf Subrace (Lesser Drow if you want to avoid debate over the Hit-and-Run ACF) Ranger 2/Hit-and-Run Sneak attack Fighter 1/Swordsage 10/Master Thrower 1/Eternal Blade 10
1. Ranger 1 - Point Blank Shot, Track
2. Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
3. Swordsage 1 - Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand), Dead Eye
4. Fighter 1
5. Swordsage 2
6. Swordsage 3 - Shadow Blade
7. Master Thrower 1 - Quick Draw
8. Swordsage 4
9. Swordsage 5 - Two-Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage 6
11. Swordsage 7
12. Swordsage 8 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
13. Eternal Blade 1
14. Eternal Blade 2
15. Eternal Blade 3 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16. Eternal Blade 4
17. Eternal Blade 5
18. Eternal Blade 6 - Craven
19. Eternal Blade 7
20. Eternal Blade 8
21. Eternal Blade 9 - Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting
22. Eternal Blade 10
23. Swordsage 9
24. Swordsage 10 - Neraph Throw or some Epic Feat (alternately, push all feats back and stick Aereni Focus (Iaijutsu Focus) back at first level)

Master Thrower is there for Doubletoss and Quick Draw. Between Time Stands Still, Isle in Time, Perfect TWF and Doubletoss, you can put out your daggers at a pretty ridiculous clip. Neraph Throw, Child of Shadow, or just good old-fashioned initiative checks should help you to flat-foot enemies with some regularity. You can also use boosts like Raging Mongoose and Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip to kick things up a notch.


A conventional tank build will likely want a Crusader dip anyhow, which would grant heavy armor proficiency. You could also get the proficiency from a Cleric dip, which would open up some useful divine feats for a tank (or just Divine Soultouch and an extra point of essentia from Incarnum Spellshaping). If you really don't want any other base classes, then you could consider PrCing into Devoted Defender or Maquar Crusader, which both grant proficiency in addition to useful things like Harm's Way. Or, you could go unarmored and go for Fist of the Forest for Con to AC when unarmored (throw in Deepwarden 2 for good measure).

Alternately, you can just wear the armor without proficiency so long as you can just ignore ACP. By using the Dragon Tail soulmeld's Totem bind, you can just hit adjacent enemies without an attack roll, freeing you up to do things like wear armor you're non-proficient in, take cover behind a Tower Shield, and get the full bonus from Combat Expertise. Throw in to the mix Tail Sweep Knockdown and/or regular Knock-down, and maybe Widen Supernatural Ability (Tail Sweep).

Also, any epic tank would benefit from Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection.

[danielxcutter]

Killoren battle sorcerer with Charming The Arrow is charisma-SAD. In addition, there's a ton of sorcerer spells augmenting archery.

If you're up for some slight cheese, make them an unseelie fey star elf. +4 racial charisma, flight and charisma synergy, in addition to being able to dip Arcane Archer with all awesomeness that opens up. The only downside is the huge constitution hit, though that can be patched up with dragonborn or general magic stuff.

Hmmm, I don't think it's what I'm looking for, but it does seem like a good idea for a character in general.

Yes, that does mean I'm going to use that idea for a different character.

You're welcome.


Why not have both Bard and Warlock for the party face? Warlock, with levels of Bard and Sublime Chord, then use Eldritch Theurge.

It's a bit... awkward, at least for my purposes. Sorry, but I don't think I'll go with this.


I would love to see a build I mentioned a few days ago in another thread.

warlock 12 / Chameleon 2 / Effigy Master 1 / X

The build could fill the craft role. The floating feat of Chameleon can be used for Raise Undead and crafting while downtimes and be changed into something offensive when heading out to adventures. Together with Effigy Master you have a minion army and can even equip em with magical stuff.

The build could be the face and the ranged damage dealer.

Errr... The Arcane Hierophant's going to take care of all the magic stuff anyway, which makes a Chameleon build redundant.


-Party face, with Charisma-based class features. Thinking of Bard or Warlock.

Dragonfire Adept can do both Face and Battlefield Control if built right.

just my 2 coppers
YMMV

Not bad. Con-based breath weapon - which means lots of hit points, infinite-use invocations, and absolutely insane BFC abilities... Can't promise that I'll actually go with this, but I can promise that it's either the Warforged Incarnate, or this for the Con-centric character.


Piggy Knowles' Archer Build Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?284283-Piggy-Knowles-Archer-Build-Thread) is an excellent resource for ranged optimization.

For a Dex-based thrower, I rather like the cocktail of Shadow Blade and Dead Eye for Dex x2 to damage with thrown daggers. Add Hit-and-Run Fighter and it's up to Dex x3 against enemies denied Dex to AC. Something like this, perhaps, assuming no multiclass penalties.

Elf Subrace (Lesser Drow if you want to avoid debate over the Hit-and-Run ACF) Ranger 2/Hit-and-Run Sneak attack Fighter 1/Swordsage 10/Master Thrower 1/Eternal Blade 10
1. Ranger 1 - Point Blank Shot, Track
2. Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
3. Swordsage 1 - Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand), Dead Eye
4. Fighter 1
5. Swordsage 2
6. Swordsage 3 - Shadow Blade
7. Master Thrower 1 - Quick Draw
8. Swordsage 4
9. Swordsage 5 - Two-Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage 6
11. Swordsage 7
12. Swordsage 8 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
13. Eternal Blade 1
14. Eternal Blade 2
15. Eternal Blade 3 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16. Eternal Blade 4
17. Eternal Blade 5
18. Eternal Blade 6 - Craven
19. Eternal Blade 7
20. Eternal Blade 8
21. Eternal Blade 9 - Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting
22. Eternal Blade 10
23. Swordsage 9
24. Swordsage 10 - Neraph Throw or some Epic Feat (alternately, push all feats back and stick Aereni Focus (Iaijutsu Focus) back at first level)

Master Thrower is there for Doubletoss and Quick Draw. Between Time Stands Still, Isle in Time, Perfect TWF and Doubletoss, you can put out your daggers at a pretty ridiculous clip. Neraph Throw, Child of Shadow, or just good old-fashioned initiative checks should help you to flat-foot enemies with some regularity. You can also use boosts like Raging Mongoose and Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip to kick things up a notch.


A conventional tank build will likely want a Crusader dip anyhow, which would grant heavy armor proficiency. You could also get the proficiency from a Cleric dip, which would open up some useful divine feats for a tank (or just Divine Soultouch and an extra point of essentia from Incarnum Spellshaping). If you really don't want any other base classes, then you could consider PrCing into Devoted Defender or Maquar Crusader, which both grant proficiency in addition to useful things like Harm's Way. Or, you could go unarmored and go for Fist of the Forest for Con to AC when unarmored (throw in Deepwarden 2 for good measure).

Alternately, you can just wear the armor without proficiency so long as you can just ignore ACP. By using the Dragon Tail soulmeld's Totem bind, you can just hit adjacent enemies without an attack roll, freeing you up to do things like wear armor you're non-proficient in, take cover behind a Tower Shield, and get the full bonus from Combat Expertise. Throw in to the mix Tail Sweep Knockdown and/or regular Knock-down, and maybe Widen Supernatural Ability (Tail Sweep).

Also, any epic tank would benefit from Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection.


A) Martial adept stuff is covered by the "Archon of Nine", and I dislike overlapping.

B) Are Incarnates proficient with light armor? That's good enough for my purposes.

C) Actually, I'm probably going to give Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection to the Archon build guy. Remember that last scene in [u]Kung Fu Panda 2[/i]? Yeah, that's where I got the idea.

[John Longarrow]

For a web comic?

Party face is an expert 24... The party LAWYER. Lots of points into appropriate profession/knowledge plus max sense motive, diplomacy, intimidate, and bluff.

Doesn't really get talk about much until is needed, then comes out with a level of terror few devils can match.

Somewhat silly, I know, but what epic level groups wouldn't want legal counsel available at will?

[danielxcutter]

For a web comic?

Party face is an expert 24... The party LAWYER. Lots of points into appropriate profession/knowledge plus max sense motive, diplomacy, intimidate, and bluff.

Doesn't really get talk about much until is needed, then comes out with a level of terror few devils can match.

Somewhat silly, I know, but what epic level groups wouldn't want legal counsel available at will?

...Expert? Not even Rogue(which does fit your idea fairly well), Expert, the tier 6 NPC class?!

...I just had an idea for a secondary character. For some reason "Rogue with ranks in Profession(lawyer)" sounds really cool.

[Inevitability]

...Expert? Not even Rogue(which does fit your idea fairly well), Expert, the tier 6 NPC class?!

...I just had an idea for a secondary character. For some reason "Rogue with ranks in Profession(lawyer)" sounds really cool.

Expert is tier 5! Stop misrepresentation of NPC classes! :smalltongue:

[Troacctid]

I assume the suggestion of Expert is referring to the Unearthed Arcana version, since it is an actual PC class.

Warforged are always proficient with their composite plating, so armor proficiency shouldn't matter for that character unless they're taking the Unarmored Body feat (which wouldn't make much sense on a tank).

One of the cool things about using a Warlock would be that Warlocks have some very awesome epic feats (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) that no other class can take, so it would be an excuse to use those. That being said, Warlocks are notoriously skill-starved, so unless you take the right prestige class(es), they aren't great at using skills.


Expert is tier 5! Stop misrepresentation of NPC classes! :smalltongue:
Oh please. You're in denial. They're firmly T6. :smallwink:

[John Longarrow]

...Expert? Not even Rogue(which does fit your idea fairly well), Expert, the tier 6 NPC class?!

...I just had an idea for a secondary character. For some reason "Rogue with ranks in Profession(lawyer)" sounds really cool.

OK, give him a high INT and all of the skills of an accountant / banker.

That DOES make for a nice tier 1 (money + ability to use/control the law) for any urban settings in a way most wizards could only hope for.

[WhamBamSam]

A) Martial adept stuff is covered by the "Archon of Nine", and I dislike overlapping.

B) Are Incarnates proficient with light armor? That's good enough for my purposes.

C) Actually, I'm probably going to give Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection to the Archon build guy. Remember that last scene in [u]Kung Fu Panda 2[/i]? Yeah, that's where I got the idea.Fair enough, I guess, though most effective martial builds will use some degree of ToB. Removing initiator builds only further limits the options for a ranged character.

Incarnates are proficient in light and medium armor.

Again, fair enough, I suppose, though you do eventually need something besides 'not dying' to make a tank a tank.

[danielxcutter]

I assume the suggestion of Expert is referring to the Unearthed Arcana version, since it is an actual PC class.

Fair, but I'm not planning on using UA except for the variant races for now.


Warforged are always proficient with their composite plating, so armor proficiency shouldn't matter for that character unless they're taking the Unarmored Body feat (which wouldn't make much sense on a tank).

I was thinking of giving the Warforged one of the Body feats; that is, either Mithral Body or Adamantine Body. If I chose Dragonfire Adept for him, I'd have to choose Unarmored Body; spell failure chance sucks. Unless I add the Twilight enchantment, of course, but I haven't decided on Incarnate, DFA, or something else.


One of the cool things about using a Warlock would be that Warlocks have some very awesome epic feats (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) that no other class can take, so it would be an excuse to use those. That being said, Warlocks are notoriously skill-starved, so unless you take the right prestige class(es), they aren't great at using skills.

Sweeeeet. Party face chosen! Any advice on what to choose - I'm partial to Eldritch Sculptor and Lord of All Essences, personally.


OK, give him a high INT and all of the skills of an accountant / banker.

That DOES make for a nice tier 1 (money + ability to use/control the law) for any urban settings in a way most wizards could only hope for.

Yeah, yeah, nice character idea but not what I'm looking for right now. Next!


Fair enough, I guess, though most effective martial builds will use some degree of ToB. Removing initiator builds only further limits the options for a ranged character.

Well, power isn't too important for this as long as nobody's ridiculously underpowered compared to most of the others. What I really need is are characters based on Cha, Con, and Dex, respectively.


Incarnates are proficient in light and medium armor.

So it's getting Unarmored Body and Heavy Armor Proficiency, or Mithral Body if I go Incarnate.


Again, fair enough, I suppose, though you do eventually need something besides 'not dying' to make a tank a tank.

DFA has slightly ridiculous amounts of BFC, and Incarnate has... a lot.

P.S.(to everyone who's answered): Thank you for taking time to answer my requests. I am deeply grateful, and I will credit everyone who's helped me make the comic. I can't really say that it's mine anymore - too many people have given me to much help.

Again, thank you. I promise not to disappoint everyone.

[Troacctid]

FI was thinking of giving the Warforged one of the Body feats; that is, either Mithral Body or Adamantine Body. If I chose Dragonfire Adept for him, I'd have to choose Unarmored Body; spell failure chance sucks. Unless I add the Twilight enchantment, of course, but I haven't decided on Incarnate, DFA, or something else.
Breath weapons don't suffer from arcane spell failure. *shrug*


Sweeeeet. Party face chosen! Any advice on what to choose - I'm partial to Eldritch Sculptor and Lord of All Essences, personally.
I'd go with something thematic, although if you're looking for pure power, Shadowmaster is probably the best. Shades at will is kind of the nuts.


So it's getting Unarmored Body and Heavy Armor Proficiency, or Mithral Body if I go Incarnate.
No, absolutely not. You'd take Adamantine Body. It is by far the best choice on a tank build.

[danielxcutter]

Breath weapons don't suffer from arcane spell failure. *shrug*

Sadly, invocations do.


I'd go with something thematic, although if you're looking for pure power, Shadowmaster is probably the best. Shades at will is kind of the nuts.

Noted.


No, absolutely not. You'd take Adamantine Body. It is by far the best choice on a tank build.

Of course, how could I be so stupid to forget Adamantine Body + Heavy Armor Proficiency. :smallannoyed: If I go Incarnate(which is getting more and more likely), that's probably how I should do it.

[BaronDoctor]

Far as Ranged Damage? A Goliath Bloodstorm Blade with Knockdown combines ranged damage, pinballing melee weapon, and functionally tripping the enemy to add a little bit of control to your killing.

The Heavy Weapons Elf (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471354-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-Heavy-Weapons-Elf-(Tempest_Stormwind)) could be fun to see in practice.

Swift Hunter creates a more dynamic archery style that plays "like rogue but not" and gives them access to a bunch of outdoorsy-skill options.

A Rainbow Warsnake (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5213.0;wap2) would count as a damage-dealer that also happens to have a bunch of neat tools besides.

Face? Bard10/Sublime Chord 10. Vest of legends adds to the Inspire Courage nonsense.

[John Longarrow]

For ranged weapon, how about someone running around with a Balista with the hide away property? Toss in some kind of ghost reload so it can shoot fast. For extra fun, a few levels in an arcane class while being mostly fighter/arcane archer. Character has far shot and weapon has distance so you can toss AoE and BFC spells out a mile. Bonus points if you can get Dex to damage (cross bow sniper variant?) on it.

[Troacctid]

Of course, how could I be so stupid to forget Adamantine Body + Heavy Armor Proficiency. :smallannoyed: If I go Incarnate(which is getting more and more likely), that's probably how I should do it.
There's no point taking Heavy Armor Proficiency if you're just wearing your composite plating, since, again, it doesn't require proficiency. :smalltongue:

[danielxcutter]

Far as Ranged Damage? A Goliath Bloodstorm Blade with Knockdown combines ranged damage, pinballing melee weapon, and functionally tripping the enemy to add a little bit of control to your killing.

The Heavy Weapons Elf (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471354-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-Heavy-Weapons-Elf-(Tempest_Stormwind)) could be fun to see in practice.

Swift Hunter creates a more dynamic archery style that plays "like rogue but not" and gives them access to a bunch of outdoorsy-skill options.

A Rainbow Warsnake (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5213.0;wap2) would count as a damage-dealer that also happens to have a bunch of neat tools besides.

Face? Bard10/Sublime Chord 10. Vest of legends adds to the Inspire Courage nonsense.


For ranged weapon, how about someone running around with a Balista with the hide away property? Toss in some kind of ghost reload so it can shoot fast. For extra fun, a few levels in an arcane class while being mostly fighter/arcane archer. Character has far shot and weapon has distance so you can toss AoE and BFC spells out a mile. Bonus points if you can get Dex to damage (cross bow sniper variant?) on it.

For other characters? Yeah, cool ideas. For this purpose? Meh, to be honest. The closest to what I want is Swift Hunter, but to be honest I don't really like choosing that either.

[danielxcutter]

There's no point taking Heavy Armor Proficiency if you're just wearing your composite plating, since, again, it doesn't require proficiency. :smalltongue:

Wait, then are you automatically proficient with the armor you get from Ad. Body or Mi. Body? That's not what I remember...

[SirNibbles]

In terms of legality, this build is fine. When it comes to cheese, it's not too bad either. If you want to make it completely free of cheese, you just need to take 13 STR for Power Attack and one flaw to pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Boomerang.

Ranged Thrower Build
Highlights:
-14 throws on a full attack dealing 16d8 each
-hit adjacent enemies twice each (28 hits)
-hit enemies that aren't smaller than you with touch attacks
-able to self buff with Wizard spells
-avg damage vs single target is 1,008+bonuses
-avg damage vs adjacent targets is 2,016+bonuses to each


Ranged Damage Dealer
Race: Human

Invisible Fist Martial Sidewinder Monk 7/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Combat Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Master Thrower 5/Fist of the Forest 1

Feats:
-Great Fortitude
-TWF/ITWF/GTWF/PTWF
-Power Attack (qualify with Martial Monk to avoid 13 STR requirement)
-Point Blank Shot
-Precise Shot
-Weapon Focus (Kama)
-Boomerang Ricochet (MM cheese again to qualify without Exotic Weapon Proficiency)
-Rapid Shot
-Improved Natural Attack
-Superior Unarmed Strike
-Combat Casting
-Practiced Spellcaster

Able to self-buff with Haste and maxed Greater Mighty Wallop (Martial Arcanist from Abjurant Champion 5 sets your CL equal to your BAB and you get +4 from Practiced Spellcaster).

Throw Aptitude Scorpion Kamas (these are cheap), dealing monk unarmed damage equal to that of a Colossal 20th level monk (thanks to Monk's Belt, Superior Unarmed Strike, and FOTF 1) + Improved Natural Attack for a total of 16d8 per throw. With Haste and Rapid Shot, you get 7 main hand attacks per round. But wait. There's more.

You can throw with both hands thanks to Perfect Two Weapon Fighting. That's 14x 16d8 throws per full attack. But wait. There's more.

Your throws hit with a touch attack because of Master Thrower 5 (unless the target is smaller than you). But wait. There's more.

You can hit two adjacent targets with a single throw thanks to Master Thrower. That's 28x 16d8 throws per full attack. But wait. There's more.

You can hit two adjacent targets with a single throw twice each thanks to Aptitude Kamas and Boomerang Ricochet. That's four hits per throw. That's 56x 16d8 per full attack. But wait. There's more.

You get a tiny bit of sneak damage on your hits (2d6). That's about it. Against a single target, you'll be doing 14x 16d8+2d6. If two enemies are next to each other, you can hit each one for twice that.

You can get a tiny bit more out of it if you beg your allied Wizard to waste feats to be able to Persist Triple Strike on you so you're throwing 16 times with each full attack. Monk 11/Master Thrower 1 instead of 7/5 gets you an extra throw and 20d8 per throw but no touch attack- consistency is probably better than the extra damage. If you're allowed to get Scorpion Shurikens you can throw two with a single attack roll which would give you 28 throws with a full attack with the posted build. 30 with triple strike. That's up to 120x 16d8 (60x 16d8 per enemy). That's an average of 4,320 damage per throw, before you add in sneak damage, enhancement bonus, dex bonus, etc.

[danielxcutter]

Eh... Doesn't someone have anything more simple for a Dex-based ranged build? Boomerang throwing sounds like fun, but archery does have its merits.

Btw, in an earlier post I said I was going with Warlock for the Cha-based character. Would a Glaivelock build - or to be exact, a build focusing on blast shapes and essences - without Hellfire Warlock be able to keep up with the others? Anything I should really pick besides Lord of All Essences?

[danielxcutter]

Bump. Seriously, no one has any good Dex-based ranged builds that fit my requirements?

[WhamBamSam]

Eh... Doesn't someone have anything more simple for a Dex-based ranged build? Boomerang throwing sounds like fun, but archery does have its merits.Ranged optimization tends not to be simple, is the thing, and requiring that it be Dex based and that it has to avoid potentially useful subsystems just exacerbates the problem.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, you can use the Dead Eye feat to get Dex to damage and if you're within 30ft and the target is denied Dex to AC Hit-and-Run Fighter adds Dex to damage as well, and the two work together. Both of these still work for Archers, though Shadow Blade does not.

If you're okay with Dragon Magazine, Targeteer Fighter (Dragon 310) isn't bad. It also has an option to add Dex to damage (in place of a non-negative Str mod, at the cost of one of your bonus feats), though you can't take it and Hit-and-Run tactics together as they both alter shield proficiencies. Since it explicitly replaces Str, and the variant gives you two Exotic Weapon Proficiencies for free, you can use a Footbow (Races of the Wild) wielded two-handed, to add 1.5*Dex, which, in conjunction with Dead Eye, gets you to 2.5*Dex to damage. Make it out of Kaorti Resin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) to get some use out of the second EWP and maybe go into Deepwood Sniper to kick your crit game up a notch. Targeteer also offers a few other bonus feat replacement options which may be of interest as well.

A Druid with the 5th level Fangshields sub-level (Champions of Valor), or a Wild Shape Ranger with a pair of Gloves of Man (Savage Species) could wield a bow while Wild Shaped, which allows for forms like Desmodu Hunting Bat, or with a sufficient Wild Shape level, Legendary Eagle, which allow you to push your Dex higher than you'd otherwise be able to.

Piggy did a Dex-based archer gish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15319194&postcount=57) in the thread I linked earlier using Uurkrau Illumian to make bonus spells key off Dex. If you don't want to use Wizard, or just want a little wrinkle, a Wu Jen based version would be almost feat neutral and would get the fun of Body Outside Body. Throw in a Wyrm Wizard dip for Mass Snake's Swiftness, and you're a one man firing squad. Alternately, Uurkrau Illumian would be human enough to get into Chameleon, which would get you an extra +6 to Dex that stacks with items and such. You still need your actual casting stat to be high enough to cast the spells, but so long as you're sticking to self-buffing, you won't care about save DCs, and will just be able to enjoy all the bonus spells you get.

[danielxcutter]

Well, if Dex-based ranged builds are too difficult, then I'm okay with some other Dex-centric build that doesn't overlap with the others.

Current plan for the NPC party is:

-Leader with "Archon of Nine"-based build. Note that I will also add maneuvers gained by research(which is perfectly possible; there are rules for that in ToB), so there will be some differences from the original.

-Elan Ranger/Psion(Egoist)/Slayer, loosely based on the "King of Smack" build. Similar to above, will have powers learned through research.

-Elf Wizard/Druid/Mystic Theurge/Arcane Hierophant. As for now, nothing especially note-worthy, at least in terms of build.

-Half-orc Fighter/Barbarian, with charger build focused on high physical damage.

-Warlock with "Glaivelock" build and epic feat Lord of All Essences, and possibly Eldritch Sculptor.

-NG Warforged Incarnate with Adamantine Body feat. I hear that Incarnates can be okay skillmonkeys and great meatshields, but not sure what else.



That's the current plan. If a Dex-based ranged build is difficult, then other Dex-dependant builds that don't overlap with the others' roles or themes are perfectly acceptable.

[unseenmage]

For your warforged, there's this rules interpretation that I enjoy that says constructs can count as magic items bcause they're made with an item crafting feat.
Which for our purpose means you can have a little minion construct as a Warforged Embedded Component.

My fav ever was Skitter the Spider Thief (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061009a) friend and boon companion to an old spellthief warforged character of mine. He resided in the back of the warforged's left hand to more easily be dropped in unsuspecting pockets.
I've also been known to stash the occasional Spellsong Nightingale (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070115a) in a warforged character's shoulders/arms for that dramatic upraised arms reveal moment.

Remember that Constructs can be bought so a non-item crafter could still acquire a construct for Embedding. Potentially.


I wouldn't have mentioned it but that toying about with the little buggers was probably the most fun I've had playing a warforged ever. Their little embedded construct pets really helped bring them to life.

[WhamBamSam]

Did you not like the suggestions from my last post then?

A melee Dex based build might be something like a Decisive Strike/Double Hit build a-la Jack B Quick, but perhaps with something like Beast Heart Adept or thrown into the mix to generate AoOs under your own power. It'll really get hamstrung if you're adamant on not using ToB for it though, as Shadow Blade and a few other things would really help you out. I guess Champion of Correlon Larethian 2 would give you Dex to damage in a way which doesn't overlap with Shadow Blade, so that might work if you're willing to pay the feat tax.

You could mess around with Great Flyby Attack, which allows you a number of attacks based on your Dex bonus. Since you only make one attack roll, you could use things like Surge of Fortune, True Strike, Aura of Perfect Order, Weapon Supremacy, and so on to set the attack roll against all of those enemies. I'm fond of Surge of Fortune+Murderous Intent for guaranteed crits against Favored Enemies.

[danielxcutter]

Did you not like the suggestions from my last post then?

A melee Dex based build might be something like a Decisive Strike/Double Hit build a-la Jack B Quick, but perhaps with something like Beast Heart Adept or thrown into the mix to generate AoOs under your own power. It'll really get hamstrung if you're adamant on not using ToB for it though, as Shadow Blade and a few other things would really help you out. I guess Champion of Correlon Larethian 2 would give you Dex to damage in a way which doesn't overlap with Shadow Blade, so that might work if you're willing to pay the feat tax.

You could mess around with Great Flyby Attack, which allows you a number of attacks based on your Dex bonus. Since you only make one attack roll, you could use things like Surge of Fortune, True Strike, Aura of Perfect Order, Weapon Supremacy, and so on to set the attack roll against all of those enemies. I'm fond of Surge of Fortune+Murderous Intent for guaranteed crits against Favored Enemies.

I dunno... I mean, I like all the ideas everyone's come up with, it's just that they don't click with me right now. Hmmm... Are there any party roles I'm missing? That would help me get a better picture of what I truly want, what I'm looking for.

[Inevitability]

I dunno... I mean, I like all the ideas everyone's come up with, it's just that they don't click with me right now. Hmmm... Are there any party roles I'm missing? That would help me get a better picture of what I truly want, what I'm looking for.

Has the party a way to find traps? I don't see a trapfinder, nor anyone with Find Traps on their list.

[SirNibbles]

Dex based ranged build (shooting lasers from your face), capable of finding traps.

Rogue 3/Generic Arcane Int Spellcaster 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Arcane Trickster 10/Havoc Mage 5

Gen Spellcaster gets you access to Find Traps and Divine Power plus every other spell you need.

Havoc Mage lets you take a full-round action to cast a spell and make a weapon attack. This means you can shoot a bow or throw a shuriken and then cast a range volley spell. Why is this good? Since it's a full-round action, you can get precision damage (sneak attack) on every single hit. If you Maximize the spell, the sneak damage gets maxed too. Add in Split Ray and Reserves of Strength for lots of volleys, like 8 rays from a single Scorching Ray.

Let's look at our 8-Ray Scorching Ray. Now let's use Twin Spell because that's a good thing. Now let's Maximize it. 16x 4d6 (scorching ray base)+11d6 (sneak from rogue, generic feat, trickster, and 2x improved sneak) = 16*15*6 = 1,440 damage per round.

You can optimise it more or less as you please. Sneak Damage is a gimmick but who cares?

[danielxcutter]

Has the party a way to find traps? I don't see a trapfinder, nor anyone with Find Traps on their list.

Ah, true. I forget what classes besides Rogue can do that though... Any suggestions?

No, not the spell Suggestion.

[Troacctid]

Dex based ranged build (shooting lasers from your face), capable of finding traps.

Rogue 3/Generic Arcane Int Spellcaster 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Arcane Trickster 10/Havoc Mage 5

Gen Spellcaster gets you access to Find Traps and Divine Power plus every other spell you need.

Havoc Mage lets you take a full-round action to cast a spell and make a weapon attack. This means you can shoot a bow or throw a shuriken and then cast a range volley spell. Why is this good? Since it's a full-round action, you can get precision damage (sneak attack) on every single hit. If you Maximize the spell, the sneak damage gets maxed too. Add in Split Ray and Reserves of Strength for lots of volleys, like 8 rays from a single Scorching Ray.

Let's look at our 8-Ray Scorching Ray. Now let's use Twin Spell because that's a good thing. Now let's Maximize it. 16x 4d6 (scorching ray base)+11d6 (sneak from rogue, generic feat, trickster, and 2x improved sneak) = 16*15*6 = 1,440 damage per round.

You can optimise it more or less as you please. Sneak Damage is a gimmick but who cares?
Bonus damage only applies to a spell's first attack in a round, so you will only deal sneak attack damage on the first ray (and on the weapon attack).

[Inevitability]

Ah, true. I forget what classes besides Rogue can do that though... Any suggestions?

No, not the spell Suggestion.

Psychic Rogue, Beguiler, Scout, Ninja, Spellthief, Factotum and Cleric with the Kobold domain, just to name a few.

There's also some PrC's that grant it, such as Hoardstealer, Stonedeath Assassin, and Chameleon (with the right focus).

[WhamBamSam]

The Incarnate could get Trapfinding by binding the Theft Gloves to his Hand Chakra, though a dedicated Trapfinder might be something they'd want if they did a lot of dungeon delving.

Rangers can get Trapfinding in place of Track from an ACF.

Stonedeath Assassin might fit. Air Goblin is a +4 Dex race, so that's something.

If you wanted to combine a bunch of the things I mentioned in my earlier post, Uurkrau Illumian Wildshape Ranger 8/Targeteer Fighter 2/Chameleon 7/Deepwood Sniper 7 with a Wild Shape Amulet could cast Blessing of the Girralon on itself to gain the hands needed for a footbow in Legendary Eagle form. You have a Dex of 34 before items, add 2.5*Dex to damage with your footbow, have access to lots of fancy archery spells through Chameleon (including Hunter's Mercy for synergy with Deepwood Sniper, even if you decide you want to trade away Ranger casting). Deepwood Sniper makes your arrows automatically keen and increases your critical multiplier to x6. You could also use Totemist 2 (Displacer Mantle Totem Bind) and the Gloves of Man to get hands that you could use in eagle form without a spell. If you decide to go that route, I'd probably drop either Deepwood Sniper or Chameleon, and end up with Uurkrau Illumian Poison Use Rogue 2/Trap Expert Wild Shape Ranger 8/Targeteer Fighter 2/Totemist 2/Chameleon 10 or Any Race Spell Reflection Rogue 2/Wild Shape Ranger 9/Targeteer Fighter 2/Totemist 2/Deepwood Sniper 7/Swordsage 2.

I'm starting to run out of things that can actually be done with Dex. You could look over the old X Stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) thread and see if anything catches your eye. The Crossbow Sniper feat is sort of a thing, though it won't beat out Footbow+Targeteer Fighter (I guess with Aptitude cheese you might be able to add it onto the above build to get up to Dex*3 to damage), it could reduce the complexity and remove the need for Dragon Magazine. A VoP character can carry around as many simple weapons as they like and their enhancement bonus applies to all of them, so I've always thought a VoP character who Quick Draws preloaded crossbows to full attack had some potential. If you can get them to count as melee weapons somehow, you could even get some Iaijutsu focus in on the fun. Alternately, you could use Hand Crossbow Focus to reload dual wielded hand crossbows as a free action. It even counts as Weapon Focus for Dead Eye and Crossbow Sniper. Lesser Drow Hit-and-Run Fighter with Hand Crossbow Focus, Dead Eye, and Crossbow Sniper, might just be the most thematically clean thing I've mentioned so far. If you want to make it a bit sillier, you could be a Lesser Deepwyrm Drow and take Dragon Tail, Shape Soulmeld (Dragon Tail), and Prehensile Tail for two extra 'hands' in which you can wield crossbows.

There's also the number of AoOs you can get from Combat Reflexes (though that would probably be tied up in my Decisive Strike/Double Hit suggestion if you're actually trying to get to use all of your AoOs in a round), and Great Flyby Attack, which I mentioned.

Beyond that, I know of Improved Web (Savage Species, you can qualify with the Combat Trapsmith's Spiderweb Trap), which allows you to fling webs at a number of enemies equal to 1+your Dex bonus as a full-round action, and a few Setting Sun maneuvers (Counter Charge can use a Dex check, and Clever Positioning has a Dex-based Save DC). So Maybe a Rogue/Swordsage/Combat Trapsmith/Whatever based on webslinging and diverting opponents into your traps? I dunno. I'm kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

[SirNibbles]

Bonus damage only applies to a spell's first attack in a round, so you will only deal sneak attack damage on the first ray (and on the weapon attack).

If it's a full-round action you apply bonus damage to all volley attacks.

(Rules Compendium page 42)

[Troacctid]

If it's a full-round action you apply bonus damage to all volley attacks.

(Rules Compendium page 42)
Weaponlike spells only deal bonus damage on the first attack each round regardless of casting time. RC 136.

[danielxcutter]

I don't need a build that's practically Dex-SAD, just a build that has it as a primary stat. Which includes AoO-based trippers, most ranged builds without Powerful Throw or Zen Archery, and pretty much anything with the Weapon Finesse feat. Neither does it have to be highly optimized.

By the way, while the Warforged Incarnate could fill in as a skillmonkey or trapfinder, I think that the party should have a full-time one. To be honest, the only reason I didn't go with straight Rogue in the first place was because it seemed a bit trite - perhaps a Daring Outlaw build could work?

[Troacctid]

Oh, well, if you just want to spice up a standard Rogue, there are a lot of nifty prestige classes you could use. Elocater, Fatemaker, Halfling Whistler, Master of Masks, Master of the South Wind, Cabinet Trickster, Psibond Agent, Shade Hunter, Shadowbane Stalker, Temple Raider, Vigilante, Umbral Disciple, Dungeon Delver, Trapsmith, Exemplar...

[danielxcutter]

Oh, well, if you just want to spice up a standard Rogue, there are a lot of nifty prestige classes you could use. Elocater, Fatemaker, Halfling Whistler, Master of Masks, Master of the South Wind, Cabinet Trickster, Psibond Agent, Shade Hunter, Shadowbane Stalker, Temple Raider, Vigilante, Umbral Disciple, Dungeon Delver, Trapsmith, Exemplar...

It doesn't *have* to be a Rogue, that was just an example. On the other hand, that's pretty much one of the easiest ways to fill in that last spot. Still on the fence, though.

[danielxcutter]

Bump to put this up where more people will see this.

[WhamBamSam]

Lesser Drow Trap Expert Ranger 2/Hit-and-Run Fighter 1/Whatever.
1. Ranger 1 - Hand Crossbow Focus
2. Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
3. Fighter 1 - Dead Eye, Crossbow Sniper

That allows you to use a hand crossbow, with free action reloading, 1.5*Dex to damage against targets within 30ft not immune to crits, 2.5 if those targets are denied Dex to AC. It also has Trapfinding. From there you can go wherever you want. Swift Hunter would probably be the natural build, but if you're dead set against it, you can probably find something to use instead. You have a base crit of 19-20 so Deepwood Sniper could be fun (maybe drop a feat on EWP for a Kaorti Resin Hand Crossbow).

Hand Crossbows can be fired one handed, but need a free one to reload, though if you solve that with items go ahead and TWF as well.

If you want a goofier version (you probably don't, but hey, so long as I'm here), you could go with something like this.

Lesser Deepwyrm Drow Cloistered Cleric (Planning, Diabolic) 1/Trap Expert Ranger 2/Hit-and-Run Fighter 2/Crafty Hunter Barbarian 2/Whatever
1. Cloistered Cleric 1 - Dragon Tail, Extend Spell, Knowledge Devotion
2. Ranger 1
3. Ranger 2 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Prehensile Tail, Multiweapon Fighting
4. Fighter 1 - Hand Crossbow Focus
5. Fighter 2 - Dead Eye
6. Barbarian 1 - Shape Soulmeld (Dragon Tail)
7. Barbarian 2 - Rapid Shot

From there pick up Crossbow Sniper, Persistent Spell, DMM Persist, and as much of the MWF line as you can. Persist Devil's Tail, and you'll have 3 tails that you can use as hands. Even if you need a free hand to reload, you can use 4 hand crossbows at once. Dealing with the reloading issue would allow you 5.

[Menzath]

I have found that the best Dex based archery builds are often done with aptitude weapons/splitting, and for feats lightning mace, pulverize foe, crushing strike, woodland Archer and a host of sneaking to full attack and still snipe.

The over reliance on precision damage hurts so much past mid level but stacking bonus damage with high BaB and rapid shot tend to be solid damage choices.

Although I heard mention of something that allows you to still add 1/2 your precision dice to things that are immune.

If thats not up your alley I always like the mindbender/earth dreamer/soul knife/soul bow

Having mind arrows being shot at you from through the ground is terrifying. Although that does tend to end up a zen archery build as well.

Edit: and if you really want a STR based thrower, a transmutation caster who can also get access to the Wu Jen spell giant size is the funniest.

[Troacctid]

The Mythic Shadow feat also helps a lot with sneak attacks, if you're doing that, since it increases the damage dice by one size and gives you Greater Invisibility at will.

Lingering Damage is also very nice, since it just basically doubles your sneak attack damage, and Savvy Rogue lets you apply Crippling Strike to targets that would normally be immune. (Crippling Strike is very strong if you can make lots of attacks in a round.)