To what extent are Elves immune to Sleep?

[Technetium43]

*Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.

So, I was looking up some things about Elf lore, and was wondering exactly what the extent of their immunity to sleep effects was. Obviously, there's the very basic and kinda vague 'immunity to magic sleep effects' clause above. Does this exclusively refer to the Sleep spell and its variants? Does it work against other spells that inflict sleep? What about a Su effect that inflicts sleep, with no reference to the Sleep spell? What about an Ex effect with the same qualifier? Can they be affected by things that affect dreams (IE Nightmare, Dream Transport, Lucid Dreaming, etc.) while trancing? Or do they have to be Asleep, as in the actual status?

Also it amuses me that one of the main deities of the race that doesn't sleep has the portfolio of sleep and dreams. (Sehanine Moonbow)

[The Glyphstone]

Since 'sleep' is not capitalized, it refers to any effect that is A) magical, and B) causes sleep. So a [Su] effect would fail, because it's magical. An [Ex] effect would not, because it is non-magical.

Whether or not they dream during a trance is probably setting-specific.

[Crake]

So, I was looking up some things about Elf lore, and was wondering exactly what the extent of their immunity to sleep effects was. Obviously, there's the very basic and kinda vague 'immunity to magic sleep effects' clause above. Does this exclusively refer to the Sleep spell and its variants? Does it work against other spells that inflict sleep? What about a Su effect that inflicts sleep, with no reference to the Sleep spell? What about an Ex effect with the same qualifier? Can they be affected by things that affect dreams (IE Nightmare, Dream Transport, Lucid Dreaming, etc.) while trancing? Or do they have to be Asleep, as in the actual status?

Also it amuses me that one of the main deities of the race that doesn't sleep has the portfolio of sleep and dreams. (Sehanine Moonbow)

This question is actually answered directly by the spells themselves:


Creatures who don’t sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or don’t dream cannot be contacted by this spell.


Creatures who don’t sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or dream are immune to this spell.

So if the spell requires a sleeping target like Dream and Nightmare, they cannot target elves (unless they willingly fall asleep). Dream travel iirc doesn't actually require the caster to go to sleep, but rather physically transports them to the plane of dreams, using it as a faster travel method, and lucid dreaming is merely a skill that is used while dreaming, so elves can use it when they willingly go to sleep.

[DrMotives]

I don't think elves can willingly go to sleep. It's a state that they just biologically don't have.

[Crake]

I don't think elves can willingly go to sleep. It's a state that they just biologically don't have.

Just like outsiders can willingly go to sleep, so can elves. They can even willingly lower their magical immunity to sleep if they wanted to, as outlined in the magic chapter in the phb

[icefractal]

They could lower their immunity and have someone cast Sleep on them, and they'd then be asleep. But without induced sleep like that, I don't think they could just choose to fall asleep 'normally'. Any more than allowing someone to temporarily Polymorph you into a bird makes you able to transform into that bird in future.

Or IRL, the fact that local anesthesia exists doesn't mean you can just choose for your arm to go numb. Although there are some yogis who apparently can. So on reflection, I'd allow elves to go to sleep with a high enough (maybe DC 25) Autohypnosis check.

Tangentially, does anyone else feel like the "Elves can lower their immunity to sleep" thing is a bad rule? It's not at all necessary, and it sets a really weird precedent where apparently Stone Golems or Fire Elementals can lower their immunity to disease and catch the flu ... somehow.

[Rebel7284]

Or IRL, the fact that local anesthesia exists doesn't mean you can just choose for your arm to go numb. Although there are some yogis who apparently can. So on reflection, I'd allow elves to go to sleep with a high enough (maybe DC 25) Autohypnosis check.


Even a pretty basic training in hypnosis/self hypnosis can let someone do this. No advanced yoga knowledge required.



Tangentially, does anyone else feel like the "Elves can lower their immunity to sleep" thing is a bad rule? It's not at all necessary, and it sets a really weird precedent where apparently Stone Golems or Fire Elementals can lower their immunity to disease and catch the flu ... somehow.

I agree. I can see some cases where it could be useful to the story, but typically, it's super weird.

[137beth]

Just like outsiders can willingly go to sleep, so can elves.

Can they? The Outsider type has text explicitly granting outsiders the ability to sleep if they want to. Is there something which allows elves to sleep?

[Segev]

Not D&D RAW, but I have come to like the notion that elves truly CANNOT sleep. And that trancing is a learned skill. Before they learn to do it, they have a very hard time learning; they can form reasonably long-term memories, but they get jumbled up without the regular "archiving" process of sleep. Trancing is a technique that takes a long time to learn because learning is so hard without it, but it's where elves take what they've experienced and mentally catalog it, doing what most races do when they dream. It's also why elves take so long to actually "grow up" and learn trade skills. For the first 90-100 years of life, they're still just learning how to learn in the first place. Once they've mastered trancing, though, they start advancing at a human-like pace (with any remaining lethargy being due to the usual "why rush; I live for another 600 years" mentality).

[Stealth Marmot]

Elves can still be knocked unconscious, which given their -2 to constitution can be done by a sneeze, a stiff breeze, or a particularly bad pun.

[Crake]

Races of the Wild makes a reference to an elf sleeping on page 9, regarding an elf who hasn't finished building his home, and how he slipps in the open, or within a room at his family home, or some crude or temporary shelter.

Additionally the elven goddess Sehanine Moonbow governs sleep and dreams, and rarely speaks to her followers directly, instead impartying her will through dreams, mystic visions and journeys of the spirit, a strange way to communicate to elves if they are totally incapable of sleeping and dreaming.

Take that as you will I suppose, but i have yet to see any material that states elves cannot sleep.

[RedMage125]

I've always understood that elves just don't possess a biological "sleep" function in their bodies. They go into the Reverie, during which they re-experience their memories. This strengthens an elf's sense of "self", which is why they also get a bonus on saves vs Enchantments. They can be rendered unconscious, but that's not the same thing.

[Psyren]

The way I rule it:

1) They do not have a purely natural/biological sleep state (PHB 225).
2) They are immune to magical sleep (PHB 16).
3) They can suppress this immunity (PHB 177); doing so will cause sleep magic to work on them, but they still cannot choose to fall asleep normally.

In short, the only way to get an elf to sleep is magically, and even then, only if it is willing to suppress its immunity.

I feel this ruling unifies all the seemingly conflicting text around this.



Tangentially, does anyone else feel like the "Elves can lower their immunity to sleep" thing is a bad rule? It's not at all necessary, and it sets a really weird precedent where apparently Stone Golems or Fire Elementals can lower their immunity to disease and catch the flu ... somehow.

I don't think this applies though. The exact text is:



Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily
forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even
a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf’s
resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.

The key phrase there is "a special resistance to magic {can be suppressed}" (and in fact, this rule is found in the Magic chapter.) An elf's immunity can be lowered because it is specific to magic sleep. A golem's disease immunity comes from its creature type (construct) and it applies across the board to all diseases (magical or not), therefore it cannot be lowered.

[Deophaun]

Just to gum up the works, here's how the MM puts it:

Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. (Not reflected in the saving throw modifiers given here.)
And that is why you should always play as a subrace from the MM: full sleep immunity, not just magic.

[Crake]

Just to gum up the works, here's how the MM puts it:

And that is why you should always play as a subrace from the MM: full sleep immunity, not just magic.

Is there actually anything mundane that induces sleep? Most of the things I can think of induce unconsciousness (like drow poison), but not sleep, and thus elves are still vulnerable.

[Bakkan]

Is there actually anything mundane that induces sleep?

A particularly boring lecture right after a big lunch on a warm day? I can't ever seem to make that save.

[Stealth Marmot]

Is there actually anything mundane that induces sleep?

The more mundane the speech, the more it induces sleep in me.

[The Glyphstone]

Is there actually anything mundane that induces sleep? Most of the things I can think of induce unconsciousness (like drow poison), but not sleep, and thus elves are still vulnerable.

Pixie sleep arrows, a Homonculus's bite, a Pseudodragon's sting, and a Dark Naga's sting will all inflict (Ex) sleep effects.

[Crake]

Pixie sleep arrows, a Homonculus's bite, a Pseudodragon's sting, and a Dark Naga's sting will all inflict (Ex) sleep effects.

The pixie arrows are actually magical (savage species page 51), the Ex ability that pixies have is merely the fact that they can have/use the arrows. I'll give you the homonculus, dark naga and pseudodragon poisons though.