help me optimize a wizard abjurer

[maxwell_wolfen]

i want to start a new campaign at level 13 and i need a good wizard build.

specifically i want to optimize a wizard abjurer (possibly human variant) at level 13 with a possible level 1 cleric dip.

standard array for my character 15,14,13,12,10,8 and all books and UA are allowed. as for races though only for PHB with the exception of SCAG options such as deep gnome which are allowed.

all ideas are welcome

so far i was thinking a wizard 12/cleric (knowledge domain) 1, abjurer, and a variant human.
2 feats of resilient CON and DEX and 2 ABI's till 13 lvl. end stats are probably

STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 20
WIS 14
CHA 10

any other opinions? how to optimize further? or should i change something? its not set in stone so please give me your feedback

[Spectre9000]

i want to start a new campaign at level 13 and i need a good wizard build.

specifically i want to optimize a wizard abjurer (possibly human variant) at level 13 with a possible level 1 cleric dip.

standard array for my character 15,14,13,12,10,8 and all books and UA are allowed. as for races though only for PHB with the exception of SCAG options such as deep gnome which are allowed.

all ideas are welcome

so far i was thinking a wizard 12/cleric (knowledge domain) 1, abjurer, and a variant human.
2 feats of resilient CON and DEX and 2 ABI's till 13 lvl. end stats are probably

STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 20
WIS 14
CHA 10

any other opinions? how to optimize further? or should i change something? its not set in stone so please give me your feedback

You can get Resilient only once. Arcane Domain would probably suit you better (more cantrips and better spells).

[Sir cryosin]

You can get Resilient only once. Arcane Domain would probably suit you better (more cantrips and better spells).

I'm AFB but I do believe that you can take resilient for every saving throw if you want to spend the ASI on it.

[Gignere]

I'm AFB but I do believe that you can take resilient for every saving throw if you want to spend the ASI on it.

Nope resilient can only be taken once RAW. Of course DM can waive restriction

[TraigosOde]

There is a very big difference with a campaign that starts at 13 and one that will be played at 13.

Simulacrum at level 13 adds a huge amount of DPR and ability, particularly when abjurer make good Simulacrum targets due to Arfane Ward.

In either case, I would recommend a pure wizard build with the following stats:

Str 08
Int 20
Dex 16
Con 13
Chr 10
Wis 12

Feats
1 - Observant or Keen Mind
4 - Int
8- Int
12 - Lucky

Lucky can be used either defensively to make up for the lack of resilient or it can be used to enhance your already excellent counterspell rolls which means you are virtually guaranteed to succeed.

[maxwell_wolfen]

You can get Resilient only once. Arcane Domain would probably suit you better (more cantrips and better spells).

how's arcana domain better? those spells and cantrips use wisdom so not much help from there?

[maxwell_wolfen]

There is a very big difference with a campaign that starts at 13 and one that will be played at 13.

Simulacrum at level 13 adds a huge amount of DPR and ability, particularly when abjurer make good Simulacrum targets due to Arfane Ward.

In either case, I would recommend a pure wizard build with the following stats:

Str 08
Int 20
Dex 16
Con 13
Chr 10
Wis 12

Feats
1 - Observant or Keen Mind
4 - Int
8- Int
12 - Lucky

Lucky can be used either defensively to make up for the lack of resilient or it can be used to enhance your already excellent counterspell rolls which means you are virtually guaranteed to succeed.

yeap really nice but i think even one resilient feat is needed for those CON saves. and yeah lucky is a must dammit

[Ogre Mage]

From an optimization standpoint, I would have chosen either high elf or gnome as my race, especially if you are a starting at level 13. Both races come with a nice suite of benefits for wizards, most notably darkvision. The bonus feat from variant human is powerful if starting at level 1, but starting at level 13 it is much less valuable. I might lean toward high elf, just because the gnome cunning ability will soon be superseded by the Abjurer's 14th level spell resistance ability. The extra wizard cantrip based on intelligence is a nice little bonus for a high elf wizard and elven weapon proficiencies, only needing to trance/rest for 4 hours and auto proficiency in the perception skill are all useful. +2 Dex, +1 Int speaks for itself.

[maxwell_wolfen]

From an optimization standpoint, I would have chosen either high elf or gnome as my race, especially if you are a starting at level 13. Both races come with a nice suite of benefits for wizards, most notably darkvision. The bonus feat from variant human is powerful if starting at level 1, but starting at level 13 it is much less valuable. I might lean toward high elf, just because the gnome cunning ability will soon be superseded by the Abjurer's 14th level spell resistance ability. The extra wizard cantrip based on intelligence is a nice little bonus for a high elf wizard and elven weapon proficiencies, only needing to trance/rest for 4 hours and auto proficiency in the perception skill are all useful. +2 Dex, +1 Int speaks for itself.

yeap it can be done. i end up (with resilient to CON) :
str 8
dex 14
con 14
int 20
wis 14
cha 10
with medium armor from cleric i have just as much dexterity i need at +2. plus a few goodies from elf

[Ogre Mage]

yeap it can be done. i end up (with resilient to CON) :
str 8
dex 14
con 14
int 20
wis 14
cha 10
with medium armor from cleric i have just as much dexterity i need at +2. plus a few goodies from elf

Great! So you look set. One last note - when you get spell mastery be sure to take shield as one of your spell mastery spells. Any smart wizard player would do this, but it is particularly valuable for abjurers because it allows you to endlessly power your arcane ward.

[EvilAnagram]

yeap it can be done. i end up (with resilient to CON) :
str 8
dex 14
con 14
int 20
wis 14
cha 10
with medium armor from cleric i have just as much dexterity i need at +2. plus a few goodies from elf

I would recommend this build. The knowledge domain just doesn't give you enough to delay your spell progression, and the extra feat just doesn't beat the high elf suite. Pick up Lucky or maybe War Caster at 16, and grab a solid mix of spells. Most of the Abjuration spells that recharge your ward will be reactions, so don't feel confined to your school.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Great! So you look set. One last note -- if the campaign makes it to 19th level (when you are Wizard 18/Cleric 1) be sure to take shield as one of your spell mastery spells. Any smart wizard player would do this, but it is particularly valuable for abjurers because it allows you to endlessly power your arcane ward.

yeah but arcane ward isnt limited to one per long rest?

[maxwell_wolfen]

I would recommend this build. The knowledge domain just doesn't give you enough to delay your spell progression, and the extra feat just doesn't beat the high elf suite. Pick up Lucky or maybe War Caster at 16, and grab a solid mix of spells. Most of the Abjuration spells that recharge your ward will be reactions, so don't feel confined to your school.

so you dont recommend one level cleric? should i be full wizard?

[Gignere]

I don't really get this optimization exercise, no one goes into spell lists, recommended strategies. To me optimizing a wizard and focusing on race, ability scores, even feats is like optimizing the part of the wizard that only has 20% of impact on the actual gameplay of the wizard. Get your spells and positioning right and you can play an orc wizard and still dominate. Also the right spells is highly contingent on party composition and items availability.

For example one of the first spells I was planning to take was animate dead, but at level 4 a helm of brilliance dropped and basically nixed that choice.

[maxwell_wolfen]

I don't really get this optimization exercise, no one goes into spell lists, recommended strategies. To me optimizing a wizard and focusing on race, ability scores, even feats is like optimizing the part of the wizard that only has 20% of impact on the actual gameplay of the wizard. Get your spells and positioning right and you can play an orc wizard and still dominate. Also the right spells is highly contingent on party composition and items availability.

For example one of the first spells I was planning to take was animate dead, but at level 4 a helm of brilliance dropped and basically nixed that choice.

i am happy to hear any strategy, spell combination. thats the point of that thread

personally. i would prefer to enter greater invisibility and throw around con and dex saving throw spells. also DM has approved that at 13 level i have in my spellbook nearly all wizard spells available till 7 level. and i say nearly cause he wont allow EVERY spell per level to be "known". But that leaves room for many many known spells.

[Ogre Mage]

yeah but arcane ward isnt limited to one per long rest?

Yes, but note the text --


"when the ward has 0 hit points, it can't absorb damage but its magic remains. Whenever you cast an abjuration spell of 1st level of higher, the ward regains a number of hit points equal to twice the level of the spell."


So you can spam unlimited shields to restore HPs to the ward.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Yes, but note the text --



So you can spam unlimited shields to restore HPs to the ward.

yeap i missed that one! but still it would regain 2 hps per round if i am not mistaken? surely better than nothing. and i cant spam shield without reason. i need to be targeted by magic missile or sth. sometimes i wont be targeted at all and just throw debuffs around. but surely it would be nice.
nondetection at will from deep gnome...well that would have been awesome..6hp per spell cast. and its at will. but.....


something else now..
gnomish cunning gives advantage on magical attacks for int, wis, cha. Isnt this broader than spell resistance from abjurer? i mean if its EXACTLY the same thing.then it 100% overlaps

[Laughingdagger]

You need to be going deep gnome, svirfneblin and at lvl four take svirfneblin magic feat, which lets you, among other bonuses, cast nondetection at-will, a level 3 abjuration spell to recharge your ward faster than any other method ever could hope to.

THE abjurer should be deep gnome.

[Ogre Mage]

yeap i missed that one! but still it would regain 2 hps per round if i am not mistaken? surely better than nothing. and i cant spam shield without reason. i need to be targeted by magic missile or sth. sometimes i wont be targeted at all and just throw debuffs around. but surely it would be nice.
nondetection at will from deep gnome...well that would have been awesome..6hp per spell cast. and its at will. but.....


something else now..
gnomish cunning gives advantage on magical attacks for int, wis, cha. Isnt this broader than spell resistance from abjurer? i mean if its EXACTLY the same thing.then it 100% overlaps

Hm, I see what you are saying. There may be some magical effects which are not spells. I thought gnomish cunning was narrower because it does not include Str and most critically, Dex and Con saves vs. spells and it does not give you resistance against the damage of spells. The 14th level spell resistance ability of the Abjurer does all that.

But in that light, if it is a non-spell magical effect which targets Int, Wis or Cha, the gnomish cunning would still have value.

Do most DMs rule that you can only cast shield when you are attacked? Logically this doesn't make sense.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Hm, I see what you are saying. There may be some magical effects which are not spells. I thought gnomish cunning was narrower because it does not include Str and most critically, Dex and Con saves vs. spells and it does not give you resistance against the damage of spells. The 14th level spell resistance ability of the Abjurer does all that.

Do most DMs rule that you can only cast shield when you are attacked? Logically this doesn't make sense.


well its not exactly ruling out. its states very plainly that you use your reaction if you are attacked. even our lenient dm wont allow that.

[Kileonhardt]

Personally if you want a 1 level Cleric dip and you say UA is available then Forge Cleric is your best bet. Gives you Shield for free, proficiency with shields, ability to +1 an armor piece and heavy armor if you want to go that way as well.

Deep Gnome Forge Cleric 1 / Abjurer Wizard 12
Str: 8 / 15 if going heavy armor
Dex 15(16) / 13(14) if going heavy armor
Con: 12
Int: 14(20)
Wis: 13 / 10 if going heavy armor
Cha: 10 / 8 if going heavy armor

ASI 4: Deep Gnome Magic
ASI 8: +2 Int
ASI 12: +2 Int

Can start Wizard for skills and proficiency if you go for medium armor, Cleric start to bypass the low starting wis for heavy armor.

[Gignere]

i am happy to hear any strategy, spell combination. thats the point of that thread

personally. i would prefer to enter greater invisibility and throw around con and dex saving throw spells. also DM has approved that at 13 level i have in my spellbook nearly all wizard spells available till 7 level. and i say nearly cause he wont allow EVERY spell per level to be "known". But that leaves room for many many known spells.

Without knowing your group's composition that seems like subpar strategy already. At 13th level you have encounter changing spells at your disposal and even greater invisibility is probably better on the rogue or fighter than you.

Targeting con is generally a bad strategy because monsters in 5e typically have high con scores and/or con proficiency. If getting attacked is a concern you should consider mirror image + shield instead.

Other game changers include reverse gravity, animate objects, or abuse the crap out of animate dead. Simulacrum is also in play so that should be considered as well.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Without knowing your group's composition that seems like subpar strategy already. At 13th level you have encounter changing spells at your disposal and even greater invisibility is probably better on the rogue or fighter than you.

Targeting con is generally a bad strategy because monsters in 5e typically have high con scores and/or con proficiency. If getting attacked is a concern you should consider mirror image + shield instead.

Other game changers include reverse gravity, animate objects, or abuse the crap out of animate dead. Simulacrum is also in play so that should be considered as well.

we have a barbarian, a paladin, a cleric and a monk. i already have my Sorlock there but i plan to change him with the abjurer we are talking about.

sure con saves are very common. but in this moment and after a few sessions we are up against illithids and beholders in the undermountain. its not written in stone and we will eventually leave undermountain for souther lands in sword coast but just to give you an image.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Personally if you want a 1 level Cleric dip and you say UA is available then Forge Cleric is your best bet. Gives you Shield for free, proficiency with shields, ability to +1 an armor piece and heavy armor if you want to go that way as well.

Deep Gnome Forge Cleric 1 / Abjurer Wizard 12
Str: 8 / 15 if going heavy armor
Dex 15(16) / 13(14) if going heavy armor
Con: 12
Int: 14(20)
Wis: 13 / 10 if going heavy armor
Cha: 10 / 8 if going heavy armor

ASI 4: Deep Gnome Magic
ASI 8: +2 Int
ASI 12: +2 Int

Can start Wizard for skills and proficiency if you go for medium armor, Cleric start to bypass the low starting wis for heavy armor.

if i eventually choose gnome, i would choose the medium armor route. but i wont have resilient in con saves. i think its mandatory for survival. and we face many spellcasters in our campaign.

[EvilAnagram]

so you dont recommend one level cleric? should i be full wizard?
The big boost you would get with the knowledge Cleric is double your proficiency for Arcana, but since Counterspell isn't an Arcana check it really isn't worth it.

[Kileonhardt]

if i eventually choose gnome, i would choose the medium armor route. but i wont have resilient in con saves. i think its mandatory for survival. and we face many spellcasters in our campaign.

That's why I personally start Fighter 1 for my Abjurer Wizards. Shields, armor proficiency, con save proficiency, slightly more health and the option to take a second level later on for Action Surge if you really wanted it. Granted you lose a level of spell slot progression but IMO it's the best way to round out your AC and Con save compared to taking resilient and going Cleric.

[EvilAnagram]

I honestly think that medium armor is completely overrated for a wizard. I played though all of Out of the Abyss as a gnome wizard, and the simple fact was that Mirror Image and Shield kept me from taking hits for the vast majority of the campaign. If you take Mage Armor on top, you're barely going to be touched, and with the Abjuration Ward it won't matter terribly much when you are.

Now, optozation is obviously about squeezing every advantage you can out of your character, but I sincerely do not believe that medium armor is worth delaying your seventh level spells. It would essentially mean that you're rarely touched instead of barely touched, and if you're barely touched you're still standing. That's not worth a game-changing slot.

[rooneg]

That's why I personally start Fighter 1 for my Abjurer Wizards. Shields, armor proficiency, con save proficiency, slightly more health and the option to take a second level later on for Action Surge if you really wanted it. Granted you lose a level of spell slot progression but IMO it's the best way to round out your AC and Con save compared to taking resilient and going Cleric.

Losing a level of spell slot progression is way less of a problem if you're starting at level 13 anyway. The difference between the level 13 spell slots and the level 12 spell slots is way smaller (percentage wise) than the difference is at earlier levels. I personally had my Abjurer take a level of Knowledge Cleric, but I've played him since level 1. If I'd started him at level 13 Fighter would be way more appealing.

[maxwell_wolfen]

That's why I personally start Fighter 1 for my Abjurer Wizards. Shields, armor proficiency, con save proficiency, slightly more health and the option to take a second level later on for Action Surge if you really wanted it. Granted you lose a level of spell slot progression but IMO it's the best way to round out your AC and Con save compared to taking resilient and going Cleric.

yeap you really lose some spell progression and i am not ok with it. plus one ABI or feat i think..

i dont know why heavy armor is a must, since with adequate dex you can have the same thing with a medium armor.

[maxwell_wolfen]

i really like the idea of stayin a pure wizard. and i dont feel medium armor is that much needed too.

but the one level in cleric way, makes you lose only your signature spell in the end. and you have exactly the same spell slots as a 13 lvl wizard (since both stack)

[maxwell_wolfen]

Losing a level of spell slot progression is way less of a problem if you're starting at level 13 anyway. The difference between the level 13 spell slots and the level 12 spell slots is way smaller (percentage wise) than the difference is at earlier levels. I personally had my Abjurer take a level of Knowledge Cleric, but I've played him since level 1. If I'd started him at level 13 Fighter would be way more appealing.

yeap action surge is phenomenal. the chance to break action economy is great, but the cost of staying behind two levels in wizard seems painful

[rooneg]

yeap action surge is phenomenal. the chance to break action economy is great, but the cost of staying behind two levels in wizard seems painful

I'm not convinced I'd do a two level dip in Fighter. Being a single level behind in wizard spells is one thing. Being two levels behind is twice as bad ;-)

The single level dip is still good though, Armor+Shield proficiency, CON saves, Defense Fighting Style. Even without Action Surge a level of fighter might be worth it.

[Kileonhardt]

I'm not convinced I'd do a two level dip in Fighter. Being a single level behind in wizard spells is one thing. Being two levels behind is twice as bad ;-)

The single level dip is still good though, Armor+Shield proficiency, CON saves, Defense Fighting Style. Even without Action Surge a level of fighter might be worth it.

Oh yeah I'd definitely not take the second level of Fighter until at least 13 levels of Wizard.

[Specter]

I'm not convinced I'd do a two level dip in Fighter. Being a single level behind in wizard spells is one thing. Being two levels behind is twice as bad ;-)

The single level dip is still good though, Armor+Shield proficiency, CON saves, Defense Fighting Style. Even without Action Surge a level of fighter might be worth it.

I feel like I posted this before but...

1 fighter level gives you effectively +4AC, +2HP and +6.5 healing per short rest. For an abjurer, who can delight in Shield and Absorb Elements while still getting HP back, this is priceless.

There's also the matter of holding the front lines and holding concentration. For these, CON proficiency and extra armor make you a terror wherever you go.

[EvilAnagram]

I feel like I posted this before but...

1 fighter level gives you effectively +4AC, +2HP and +6.5 healing per short rest. For an abjurer, who can delight in Shield and Absorb Elements while still getting HP back, this is priceless.

There's also the matter of holding the front lines and holding concentration. For these, CON proficiency and extra armor make you a terror wherever you go.

I disagree. The +2 HP is very little when you're constantly recharging your ward, limiting your reliance on HP.

The +4 AC is really more like +3 AC if you have +2 Dex (which is a good idea for saves and initiative), and it's not that important when Wizards can already cast Mirror Image, Blink, and Mage Armor, and Shield without using concentration. A wizard who uses the battlefield to his or her advantage will very rarely rely on AC to keep their HP, and Abjurers can worry even less about that.

6.5 healing per short rest is not bad, but it's also not very good. Hell, people cry about Second Wind falling behind for full-classed fighters because it tops out at 26.5 HP per short rest. At level thirteen, first level Second Wind just isn't a big selling point.

high-level wizards, thanks to their range and the plethora of spells that boost AC or even keep them from relying on AC to defend themselves in the first place, shouldn't worry about armor. Abjurers should worry even less about it.

[Specter]

I disagree. The +2 HP is very little when you're constantly recharging your ward, limiting your reliance on HP.

The +4 AC is really more like +3 AC if you have +2 Dex (which is a good idea for saves and initiative), and it's not that important when Wizards can already cast Mirror Image, Blink, and Mage Armor, and Shield without using concentration. A wizard who uses the battlefield to his or her advantage will very rarely rely on AC to keep their HP, and Abjurers can worry even less about that.

6.5 healing per short rest is not bad, but it's also not very good. Hell, people cry about Second Wind falling behind for full-classed fighters because it tops out at 26.5 HP per short rest. At level thirteen, first level Second Wind just isn't a big selling point.

high-level wizards, thanks to their range and the plethora of spells that boost AC or even keep them from relying on AC to defend themselves in the first place, shouldn't worry about armor. Abjurers should worry even less about it.

+2HP is not much, agreed, but it's an advantage, so I had to mention it. It's +4 if you start Fighter.

Average Wizard with 14DEX + Mage Armor: 15AC.
Military Wizard with Breastplate, 14DEX, Defense fighting style and a shield: 19AC.
So, +4 AC. If you can live with stealth disadvantage, get +5AC, but I wouldn't, so I won't suggest it.

Wizards usually don't use their bonus action on much, so bonus healing can always be handy in a pinch. And unlike healing word, you can still cast a full-fledged spell along with it.

I've never played a single session of DnD in five years of gaming where I wasn't attacked. AC is always good. With 5e's bounded accuracy, where any 4 can mean a failure, this is doubly true.

I can understand the appeal of going pure Abjurer, especially to get Spell Resistance earlier. But, you have to hope to get there in the first place.

[Kileonhardt]

+2HP is not much, agreed, but it's an advantage, so I had to mention it. It's +4 if you start Fighter.

Average Wizard with 14DEX + Mage Armor: 15AC.
Military Wizard with Breastplate, 14DEX, Defense fighting style and a shield: 19AC.
So, +4 AC. If you can live with stealth disadvantage, get +5AC, but I wouldn't, so I won't suggest it.

Wizards usually don't use their bonus action on much, so bonus healing can always be handy in a pinch. And unlike healing word, you can still cast a full-fledged spell along with it.

I've never played a single session of DnD in five years of gaming where I wasn't attacked. AC is always good. With 5e's bounded accuracy, where any 4 can mean a failure, this is doubly true.

I can understand the appeal of going pure Abjurer, especially to get Spell Resistance earlier. But, you have to hope to get there in the first place.

Agreed on all counts. That extra 3/4/5 AC means even more when you have Shield boosting your AC above those 20+ to hits. Wearing armor also stops you from having to use spell slots for more defenses that isn't shield or absorb elements.

The benefits that a single Fighter level give an Abjurer Wizard do outweigh putting off spells / spell resistance in my eyes.

[EvilAnagram]

I've never played a single session of DnD in five years of gaming where I wasn't attacked. AC is always good. With 5e's bounded accuracy, where any 4 can mean a failure, this is doubly true.
This is shocking to me. No successful stealth missions? No full days spent talking to NPCs and shopping? No sessions spent investigating? No three-hour sessions where everyone just talks through every potential danger?

Even when I played OotA, where combat is frequent and grueling, I rarely received an attack. There were six of us, and I was happy using Blink and buffing my allies for most of it. When I knew a big fight was imminent, I would cast Mirror Image right before it started, buff an ally or debuff an enemy first turn, and Blink out by second turn. On those rare occasions during which I had both attracted more ire than the Barbarian, Paladin, or Warlock and failed to disappear in a puff of smoke, the Mirror Image still took the majority of attacks directed at me.

I believe I needed one combat heal after passing sixth level, and I was a Transmuter, not an Abjurer.


I can understand the appeal of going pure Abjurer, especially to get Spell Resistance earlier. But, you have to hope to get there in the first place.

The biggest danger an abjuration wizard will face is enemy spells. Blur, Mirror Image, Blink, Mage Armor, Shield, Misty Step, and Greater Invisibility can all keep you out of any real danger when it comes to attacks. A Cone of Cold you can't counter, however, is deadly. Spell Resistance is far more useful than AC.

[Kileonhardt]

The biggest danger an abjuration wizard will face is enemy spells. Blur, Mirror Image, Blink, Mage Armor, Shield, Misty Step, and Greater Invisibility can all keep you out of any real danger when it comes to attacks. A Cone of Cold you can't counter, however, is deadly. Spell Resistance is far more useful than AC.


If there's a cone of cold you can't counter as an Abjuration wizard then I think you have more going wrong for you in that moment than taking a 1 level fighter dip.

And on the note of you not being attacked very much, well that's just your DM being lenient. Mid level campaigns the enemies will more often than not have the intelligence to know that guy in robe slinging spells = huge threat, and actually attack him.

Maybe it's the fact that I usually start my campaigns lower level and don't hop right in at super power levels for casters, but that one level of fighter more often than not gives you everything you need to stay alive to become that super powerful wizard.

[coredump]

I am going to go in a different direction.

Try dipping 2 levels of Warlock.
With Armor of Shadows you get at will Mage Armor for protection, and for infinite recharge of your abjuration ward (without needing a feat)
With Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Hex you get 3D10+3D6+6 cantrip. (assuming only 14 Cha)
With UA Seeker you get 1 round Resistance to everything each Short Rest (bonus action)
With Hellish Rebuke you get a Reaction attack against anyone that does damage you
With Armor of Agathys your 25pt Arcane Ward is backed up with 25 Temp hp, and you don't care if you get hit, since every hit means 25hps back on the attacker
With Pact Magic you get 2 level 1 slots per Short Rest for Shield or Hellish Rebuke or Hex
You can skip Agonizing Blast for Devil's Sight, or Eyes of Rune Keeper etc
You can skip Seeker for another Patron to get things like telepathy, etc

It does require a 13/14 Cha, but that isn't too hard to swing for all of those benefits. Depending on situation, Blade Ward even becomes useable.

[maxwell_wolfen]

adding one level cleric for armor proficiencys and domain power seems an optimizing route. sure you lose signature spell and you get all wizard goodies one level later. but you retain spellcasting slots and you have all the ++ from cleric.
one level fighter is subpar. heavy armor? what for? i dont have the strength and i am not ok with the movement penalty. if we were talking about 2 levels of fighter then thats better. you lose spell progression and slots and you get action surge. personally i dont want to lose spellcasting slots so i wont be adding fighter levels. but i am torn between a pure wizard vs a wizard with one level cleric

[EvilAnagram]

If there's a cone of cold you can't counter as an Abjuration wizard then I think you have more going wrong for you in that moment than taking a 1 level fighter dip.
Unless a fighter level can keep you from ever rolling a 1, I think this will always be a problem.


And on the note of you not being attacked very much, well that's just your DM being lenient. Mid level campaigns the enemies will more often than not have the intelligence to know that guy in robe slinging spells = huge threat, and actually attack him.
I doubt it's leniency. In another campaign he gave Krave Edge from Critical Role to Strahd just to make it a little bit harder to beat him. It's more that I take steps to avoid being targeted when I'm a squishy. Flyimg, Blink, and other strategies are useful, as is the potency of our front line, typically.


Maybe it's the fact that I usually start my campaigns lower level and don't hop right in at super power levels for casters, but that one level of fighter more often than not gives you everything you need to stay alive to become that super powerful wizard.
I certainly understand that approach more when you're starting from scratch, but the campaign we're discussing is starting at 13.

[Gignere]

Sometimes it isn't lenient DM why the wizard doesn't get targeted. There are so many things a wizard can do that turns the whole battle around but doesn't draw any attention to him. My first action in combat is to run behind something or minor illusion, my second action is typically to buff the BFS. So I have done nothing to appear threatening. If the group need a cc I throw that out phantasmal force typically so nothing flashy for NPCs to think damn that wizard is so badass.

I don't go in fireball blazing and throwing magic missiles left and right. I just appear to be a pathetic elf shivering cowering behind a stone. While you have the raging barbarian that zips 80 feet of movement and is hacking your buddies apart with three GWM attacks a round. Why in the world would the mobs attack the wizard in that situation?

[EvilAnagram]

Sometimes it isn't lenient DM why the wizard doesn't get targeted. There are so many things a wizard can do that turns the whole battle around but doesn't draw any attention to him. My first action in combat is to run behind something or minor illusion, my second action is typically to buff the BFS. So I have done nothing to appear threatening. If the group need a cc I throw that out phantasmal force typically so nothing flashy for NPCs to think damn that wizard is so badass.

I don't go in fireball blazing and throwing magic missiles left and right. I just appear to be a pathetic elf shivering cowering behind a stone. While you have the raging barbarian that zips 80 feet of movement and is hacking your buddies apart with three GWM attacks a round. Why in the world would the mobs attack the wizard in that situation?

I played a very similar way. I was one of the most experienced players, so I opted to simply make everyone else more powerful.

[Gignere]

I played a very similar way. I was one of the most experienced players, so I opted to simply make everyone else more powerful.

Yeah but I can tell it is annoying my DM so he actually goes out of the way to target my character. Raging clay golem surrounded by 3 other melee PCs, beelines 20 feet at the wizard behind cover and attacks him. WTF, oh well I understand he wants to spread the love a bit but sometimes it is getting too obvious.

[Vaz]

On an unintelligent being like a Clay Golem, that is your DM messing with you unless it is being controlled.

[Gignere]

On an unintelligent being like a Clay Golem, that is your DM messing with you unless it is being controlled.

No **** it took three OAs to attack the cowering wizard with + 5 to AC due to cover. Whatever made the fight easier since two of the three OAs hit and the golem missed all three swings on me. I guess I should stop boasting about I don't know what these two letters "hp" means because I never use it.

[coredump]

. My first action in combat is to run behind something or minor illusion,

Maybe not as DM, but as a player I think I would be grumpy with a PC that continually wasted the first round of combat protecting himself instead of helping the party. If the BFS has a higher Init, that means the wizard has no effect on the combat until the third round...... most fights don't last much longer than 3 rounds.

[Specter]

This is shocking to me. No successful stealth missions? No full days spent talking to NPCs and shopping? No sessions spent investigating? No three-hour sessions where everyone just talks through every potential danger?

Even when I played OotA, where combat is frequent and grueling, I rarely received an attack. There were six of us, and I was happy using Blink and buffing my allies for most of it. When I knew a big fight was imminent, I would cast Mirror Image right before it started, buff an ally or debuff an enemy first turn, and Blink out by second turn. On those rare occasions during which I had both attracted more ire than the Barbarian, Paladin, or Warlock and failed to disappear in a puff of smoke, the Mirror Image still took the majority of attacks directed at me.

I believe I needed one combat heal after passing sixth level, and I was a Transmuter, not an Abjurer.

The biggest danger an abjuration wizard will face is enemy spells. Blur, Mirror Image, Blink, Mage Armor, Shield, Misty Step, and Greater Invisibility can all keep you out of any real danger when it comes to attacks. A Cone of Cold you can't counter, however, is deadly. Spell Resistance is far more useful than AC.

It's true. Every time.

The points you're making are good points, but not opposite to mine. Casting Blur/Greater Invis. when you have 19AC is ten times better than on 15AC. Shield? Gets even better, and more reliable. And it's not like you need these spells to survive, but if you do use them, you can comfortably get surrounded and not care.

And all of this is without mentioning the CON save proficiency Fighter gives.

[Gignere]

Maybe not as DM, but as a player I think I would be grumpy with a PC that continually wasted the first round of combat protecting himself instead of helping the party. If the BFS has a higher Init, that means the wizard has no effect on the combat until the third round...... most fights don't last much longer than 3 rounds.

You shouldn't be pissed in the long run not wasting resources to resurrect/heal the wizard is much better. We had a direct comparison another player rolled warlock and he went all gung-ho blasting out of the gate but he dirt faced like every combat he got so annoyed he rerolled and I definitely contribute way more than he ever did. Remember I have a familiar and although I am hiding the familiar is helping the rogue in the first round.

It won't be the third round if enemies win initiative regardless I will be doing something in second round and in about half the fights everyone is getting into position anyway. Hell I have acted a lot sooner than the 25 movement dwarf in a couple of fights where he wasn't even in the action until the third round since he is ambling along at 25 movement.

[EvilAnagram]

The points you're making are good points, but not opposite to mine. Casting Blur/Greater Invis. when you have 19AC is ten times better than on 15AC. Shield? Gets even better, and more reliable. And it's not like you need these spells to survive, but if you do use them, you can comfortably get surrounded and not care.

And all of this is without mentioning the CON save proficiency Fighter gives.

I see what you mean, but if a wizard is barely losing HP, what does he care if his defenses are ten times better? Ten times better than never getting hit is still never getting hit, and delaying powerful offensive and utility spells to continue not getting hit seems an uneven trade.

Now, if you're throwing down fireballs left and right and constantly draw attention to yourself as the biggest threat, I think it's more reasonable to chase some AC.

[MrWesson22]

Well, let's look at fighter vs life cleric for a splash. Fighter basically gets con save and martial weapons. Life cleric still gets full spell progression (albeit 1 lvl behind for arcane), divine cantrips, as well as level 1 divine spells (while always having bless and cure wounds prepared). Con save proficiency is nice, but this is a no brainer to me.

[Spectre9000]

Well, let's look at fighter vs life cleric for a splash. Fighter basically gets con save and martial weapons. Life cleric still gets full spell progression (albeit 1 lvl behind for arcane), divine cantrips, as well as level 1 divine spells (while always having bless and cure wounds prepared). Con save proficiency is nice, but this is a no brainer to me.

Fighter 2 gives Action Surge. Once per short rest a wizard can let loose. Two high level spells in a single round can really do a lot, plus opens up plenty of versatile options that would have taken you two turns to get going.

[EvilAnagram]

Fighter 2 gives Action Surge. Once per short rest a wizard can let loose. Two high level spells in a single round can really do a lot, plus opens up plenty of versatile options that would have taken you two turns to get going.
OP already said he's not willing to lose two Wizard levels. Your point is moot.

Furthermore, he isn't willing to lose any spell slot progress, so the Fighter dip is out entirely.

The only question is whether or not the armor proficiency is worth delaying seventh level slots. I think if someone feels that strongly about medium armor, they should just consider a hill dwarf and take Observant as a feat to round out their Int.

That said, a Life Cleric is decent enough for a minor dip.

[maxwell_wolfen]

i am really between 13 full wizard and 12 wizard/1 cleric

life domain seems nice for cure wounds but i also like light domain for a giving disadvantage to enemies 2 times (with a 14 wisdom)

also we are going to face many mages in our campaign. we just fought 5 high level mindflayers and we were nearly killed
as i said we are a barbarian, monk, paladin, cleric. the rest are not optimizers.

my sorcerer barely made it out alive. and the mind flayers were all variant arcanists and a bit leveled up, so the encounter was deadly
i like having high ac and wearing medium armor is really very neat, i like it a lot. i m just torn between this and taking spell resistance a level later. or loosing spell signature

we will surely play till 20 levels. also levels come veeeery slow. we kill many enemies but our dm advances our level when we progress the story. so even if we kill 100 ilithids, if we cant progress the story we wont level up.

[maxwell_wolfen]

i was searching ways to be more devastating with my save spells. my defense combined with abjurer is superb
i plan to make a serious mage killer, even our arc nemesis in our campaign is a high level wizard. Thats the reason i chose abjurer in the first place

how to grand disadvantage to others since i dont have heightened spell
any ideas?

[GorogIrongut]

So you want to be a wizard, 'Arry.

:P

The fact that you want to keep spell mastery means that you discount sorceror, warlock and bard as possible multi class options (you'd need to invest 3 levels to really get the best benefit from them).

I'm a big fan of clerics and there a pretty easy 1 level dip. They're fairly frontloaded and give nice abilities.
As options for them I would suggest:

-Knowledge is always great for turning you into a skill monkey while still giving you the benefits of going cleric. 2 level dip isn't necessary but very useful.
-Life gets you a lot from a 1 level dip and enables you to be good healer for a wizard.
-My personal favourite however is Tempest... it gives you all martial weapons, h armour and an excellent 1st level ability when being attacked. Later on, if you choose to take a 2nd level in it, then you become master of lightning and thunder. Last I remember wizards had access to some solid spells that did lightning and/or thunder damage. It could become a ridiculous combo while still retaining all of the abjurer goodness.

If you're open to a 2 level dip, you could get a lot of in game utility from dipping into a circle of the moon Druid. The downside to this is that it doesn't increase your ac... but it does give you free hit points in the form of animal forms.

As has been mentioned before, dwarven abjurers are a thing because they're very good at what they do. You get a lot of good things by going dwarf... things that might mitigate your wanting to multi class at all.

If I were you I'd go for what will ultimately become a dwarven level 18/2 Abjurer Tempest Cleric. The imagery is epic, just imagine your braided beard whipping around in the midst of the tempest as you face a kraken.

[maxwell_wolfen]

So you want to be a wizard, 'Arry.

:P

The fact that you want to keep spell mastery means that you discount sorceror, warlock and bard as possible multi class options (you'd need to invest 3 levels to really get the best benefit from them).

I'm a big fan of clerics and there a pretty easy 1 level dip. They're fairly frontloaded and give nice abilities.
As options for them I would suggest:

-Knowledge is always great for turning you into a skill monkey while still giving you the benefits of going cleric. 2 level dip isn't necessary but very useful.
-Life gets you a lot from a 1 level dip and enables you to be good healer for a wizard.
-My personal favourite however is Tempest... it gives you all martial weapons, h armour and an excellent 1st level ability when being attacked. Later on, if you choose to take a 2nd level in it, then you become master of lightning and thunder. Last I remember wizards had access to some solid spells that did lightning and/or thunder damage. It could become a ridiculous combo while still retaining all of the abjurer goodness.

If you're open to a 2 level dip, you could get a lot of in game utility from dipping into a circle of the moon Druid. The downside to this is that it doesn't increase your ac... but it does give you free hit points in the form of animal forms.

As has been mentioned before, dwarven abjurers are a thing because they're very good at what they do. You get a lot of good things by going dwarf... things that might mitigate your wanting to multi class at all.

If I were you I'd go for what will ultimately become a dwarven level 18/2 Abjurer Tempest Cleric. The imagery is epic, just imagine your braided beard whipping around in the midst of the tempest as you face a kraken.


tempest cleric level 2 channel divinity seems good. max damage on chain lightning. but its just that...nothing else. and we are behind 2 levels from wizard class features. also there are no many spells that deal lighning damage except chain lightning

[GorogIrongut]

tempest cleric level 2 channel divinity seems good. max damage on chain lightning. but its just that...nothing else. and we are behind 2 levels from wizard class features. also there are no many spells that deal lighning damage except chain lightning

Then just do level 1 in Tempest Cleric. It's still more than good on it's own. And if at a later date, when you're in the end game of your character, you decide that you do want to maximize your lightning/thunder damage; you can add that 2nd tempest cleric level without any hassle.
You still get to maintain all spell casting levels, you would just miss out on your level 19 asi. Even better, because you're maximizing the damage, a passed save would be just like if they had failed a normal lightning attack.

example.
You cast chain lightning at a Stone Giant. Three bolts then leap out at his underling ogres. Normally you would roll 10d8 for each of the targets (45 damage on average). Each respective target would make a dexterity save for half damage.

With the tempest ability you shoot the same chain lightning but instead they each take the max damage of 80. Those who pass their dex saves end up taking half damage of 40.

The Stone Giant is at only a +5 to dex saves so will likely fail badly. The ogres are even worse. Assuming two get lucky and succeed you've still dealt 240 damage between 4 targets with a single spell and that channel divinity. Without it, assuming the same success rate, 134 damage. If only 1 succeeds that changes to 280 vs 157. If none succeed then it's 320 vs 180.

That may be worth an asi to you. It may not.

[maxwell_wolfen]

yeap thats one thought. though you can use your channel divinity one time per long rest. so its not THAT game breaking. a one time maximizing shot

[EvilAnagram]

yeap thats one thought. though you can use your channel divinity one time per long rest. so its not THAT game breaking. a one time maximizing shot

It won't break the game, but it's definitely a fantastic encounter breaker. Dealing 60 damage to four creatures is great.

[maxwell_wolfen]

It won't break the game, but it's definitely a fantastic encounter breaker. Dealing 60 damage to four creatures is great.

Yeah its not gamebreaking but its only one time. And if enemies pass the save then?
Its nice but you get all your wizard features two levels later. I might dip it the last minute around 19 lvl.

[djreynolds]

Are you willing to pass up signature spell at 20th level, for some armor?

A mountain dwarf will net you medium armor.

You have enough AS/feats to max out int/con and 1 left over.

I think 20th level wizard signature spell is on par with druid and barbarian.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Are you willing to pass up signature spell at 20th level, for some armor?

A mountain dwarf will net you medium armor.

You have enough AS/feats to max out int/con and 1 left over.

I think 20th level wizard signature spell is on par with druid and barbarian.

You choose 2 3rd level spells and cast them one per short rest. Can you explain me where the gamebreaking thing is here

[djreynolds]

Its not game breaking but nice to have an extra use of haste or counterspell.

Nothing wrong with cleric1/ 19 wizard, I actually like the cleric saves because wisdom and charisma (banishment) can take you out and you can always grab resilient con.

Your build is on point, I just like the signature spell, lots utility in those and get out of jail free ones.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Its not game breaking but nice to have an extra use of haste or counterspell.

Nothing wrong with cleric1/ 19 wizard, I actually like the cleric saves because wisdom and charisma (banishment) can take you out and you can always grab resilient con.

Your build is on point, I just like the signature spell, lots utility in those and get out of jail free ones.

I like it too but at 20 lvl having an extra counterspell or fireball is not encounter breaking. More worse its fixed. Spell mastery lets you change your chosen spells for example. Surely its subjective but just saying