DM Help Lucifer. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

WhatThePhysics

2017-01-15, 04:47 PM

need help building a character for Lucifer as the final boss in the campaign i have made. any builds you guys think would be a challenge?

Which game and edition is this for?

What's the party's average effective character level?

How many party members are there?

What are the capacities of the player characters?

Where is this final battle planned to take place?

What level of optimization are you looking for?

Afgncaap5

2017-01-15, 04:56 PM

There's a lot of different ways to play Lucifer. I think a lot of them are overplayed, actually, but on the other hand there's a lot of life left in the classic ways to do him. Also, it depends on the level of your party, and the way you've set your campaign.

One fun way to handle Lucifer might actually be to give him stats similar to an angel. Like, make him have a type along the lines of Outsider (Lawful, Good) but with an alignment of LE and DR that can only be overcome by Evil weapons. You could also portray him as someone still fully convinced that he's ultimately serving the forces of goodness by acting as an "accuser". "I may have doomed myself for an eternity, but in the process I have held reality itself to a higher standard, that the gods may have some pride in their creation. All your virtues stand firmer, all your paladins strike truer, and all your hopes shine brighter because of me. All who cannot resist my will shall fall down with me. Without my influence your world is a playground of imitative smiles and unnecessary morals, but with me there is substance." Whether or not Lucifer actually believes any of that could be up to you, of course.

Segev

2017-01-15, 04:58 PM

I'd personally just use Asmodeus; he fills the role in D&D pretty straight-forwardly.

D&DPrinceTandem

2017-01-15, 05:16 PM

Duchifier Archtype = Lord of the Eighth

Pitch fork Archtype = Lord of the First

Fallen from grace Archtype = Lord of the Ninth

urmom

2017-01-15, 05:22 PM

Frosty

2017-01-15, 07:22 PM

Sorry, but level 12 characters don't beat entities that are "on par with gods" without a stupid amount of cheese and rules abuse.

Esprit15

2017-01-15, 07:26 PM

Sorry, but level 12 characters don't beat entities that are "on par with gods" without a stupid amount of cheese and rules abuse.

Seconding this. Even a solar would crush them, let alone something on par with gods.

Afgncaap5

2017-01-15, 07:54 PM

5 characters at 12 and 1 at 11 i want him to be on par with gods but not impossible to beat. its for 3.5E and the setting is around the apocalypse as they are in the middle of fighting the 4 horsemen.

If you have access to the Miniatures Handbook, I recommend opening it up to the monster section and taking a look at the entry marked Aspects. The Aspect of Asmodeus or Aspect of Mephistopheles are probably about what you want, stat-wise. For a boss fight, something around level 15 might be appropriate, so give him some handy minions to take away the players' advantage on the action economy front, I recommend some of the CR 8-10-ish devils (or even reflavored demons) from the basic Monster Manual. Have some heavy hitter minions, and a couple who are there to provide buffs or support, maybe a couple of low-level human cultists. Consider a custom ability that allows Lucifer to instantly slay a minion once per round as a free action to recover a number of hit dice (or d3s of hit dice) equal to the number of HD that the entity had. Depending on how capable your players are, that should be a tough fight but not a TPK. If your players might be in over their heads, either directly give them some sort of super weapon going in, or foreshadow some sort of help that might be able to show up midway through combat.

That *might* give you something along the lines of what you want. Add or remove more minions to taste, and reseason to fit your campaign as appropriate. I'd recommend stressing to your players that what they're fighting isn't actually Lucifer (or at least not Lucifer at full power) but merely an aspect of his power beginning to emerge into reality. You're not fighting Lucifer so much as you're plugging up the Lucifer-shaped gap in reality where such a thing is emerging.

Edit: Rethinking this, the Aspect on its own might be a little too weak. I forgot it was only CR 9. Still, that's not a bad starting place. Might wanna give it some more HD.

Calthropstu

2017-01-15, 08:47 PM

Lucifer's stats may be found HERE (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-unique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc)

FocusWolf413

2017-01-15, 08:59 PM

5 characters at 12 and 1 at 11 i want him to be on par with gods but not impossible to beat. its for 3.5E and the setting is around the apocalypse as they are in the middle of fighting the 4 horsemen.

This isn't going to work. Don't have them fight Lucifer himself, maybe just an aspect of him.

Why would they be able to defeat one who was able to lead a revolution in heaven? Gods and men are different. Keep them apart.

jscape2000

2017-01-15, 09:05 PM

Never be afraid to crush the PCs in the final encounter. Especially if they have an inkling that they're up against the devil himself. Especially in a game about the apocalypse.

On the other hand, maybe that is even the kind of cheese that can turn defeat into victory. I'm thinking about Stephen King's The Stand- by delaying and distracting the devil, the heroes sacrifice themselves to create an opportunity for him to defeat himself. Same applying to LOTR and the assault on the Black Gate, distracting Sauron from Frodo and Sam.

Again, it all depends on the characters and where your story has been so far- maybe a paladin has to commit his soul to Lucifer just as he dies in Lucifer's presence, or a drop of Lucifer's blood has to be caught in the Holy Grail (which could require a full party effort just to wound him). Maybe it's all a bait and switch- Lucifer is happy to have the apocalypse averted, because the PCs do something that alters the balance of power in the mortal realms (just like he planned they would).

So many great possibilities. Especially if all it does is reset the clock for the next generation of heroes...

jscape2000

2017-01-15, 09:11 PM

Lucifer's stats may be found HERE (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-unique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc)

AC 76 :mitd:

Yukitsu

2017-01-15, 09:15 PM

Last time I tried this, my players went up to the person disguised as Lucifer, asked if they could have jobs, were given menial but ultimately leading to certain evil tasks and when their boss was finally revealed to be Lucifer with his plan to overthrow God, they said "well, at least the benefits package is pretty good." and kept working.

So in sum, Lucifer is a lot more cunning and devious if they don't rely on a great combat based build, but instead should be roleplayed to make the players do what he wants without having to roll anything. Heck, my Lucifer would've been fairly easy to punk out in combat. Failing that, I'd prefer using a lot of powerful fallen heroes that were brought on to Lucifer's side rather than having them immediately and directly fight Lucifer.

Calthropstu

2017-01-15, 09:28 PM

AC 76 :mitd:

Only 38 touch which is not insurmountable... and there's always the nat 20 approach.

Of course there's also the good and silver dr, which can be overcome by a +4 weapon.

A standard 20th level party would be annihilated, but a few dozen adventuring parties attacking at once might threaten him. Though, since he casts as both a high level cleric AND wizard, beating him will be a bit tough since he could run away easily... and that sr 50 is nigh insurmountable to most casters.

Buufreak

2017-01-15, 10:22 PM

*snip* "Aspects" *snip*

If I remember, BoVD also has Aspects listed, albeit at higher levels. They may be more appropriate.

Azoth

2017-01-15, 10:34 PM

Never be afraid to crush the PCs in the final encounter. Especially if they have an inkling that they're up against the devil himself. Especially in a game about the apocalypse.

Small nitpick, but a pet peeve of mine, Satan (the Devil) and Lucifer are two distinctly different individuals. The media may portray them as the same and use the names interchangeably, but that is simply not the case.

Afgncaap5

2017-01-15, 11:00 PM

Small nitpick, but a pet peeve of mine, Satan (the Devil) and Lucifer are two distinctly different individuals. The media may portray them as the same and use the names interchangeably, but that is simply not the case.

Correct. In my games Lucifer tends to be a mortal king if he shows up, while Satan himself is... not. However, most people prefer to lump 'em together. I generally keep some link between the two, though, in the interest of not confusing players. (See also: my frequent attempts to use the word "Wight" when I'm not referring to to an undead monster.)

Azoth

2017-01-15, 11:21 PM

Correct. In my games Lucifer tends to be a mortal king if he shows up, while Satan himself is... not. However, most people prefer to lump 'em together. I generally keep some link between the two, though, in the interest of not confusing players. (See also: my frequent attempts to use the word "Wight" when I'm not referring to to an undead monster.)

In my games, when I go for a more modern pantheon, Lucifer is a double agent for God. The background is that the war in Heaven was staged. God and Lucifer met behind the scenes, and made an agreement of sorts. Lucifer would rally those that would not nurture and watch over man believing they were unworthy, or out of fear that they would put humans before God. Once he had them, they would leave Heaven and enter the pit under the guise of being cast out renegades.

From the Pit, Lucifer and his angels work alongside demons to test and tempt mankind. Those who fall were not worthy of the opportunity given. Those who stay good enter Heaven. Strong individuals that fought evil are reborn as celestial beings to join God's army.

There is more to it of course. Lucifer and his angels do spoil Hell's plans from behind the scenes and take out strong/cunning demons along the way when they can. They also help those who have entered the pit leave or complete missions, in a fashion similar to the Greek gods helping Persons.

Efrate

2017-01-16, 12:47 AM

He's statted in I think the 3.0 fiend folio? Where ever Orcus appears IIRC, as opposed to the pathfinder one if you are interested. think its 3rd party from necromancer games however.

jscape2000

2017-01-16, 12:56 AM

Small nitpick, but a pet peeve of mine, Satan (the Devil) and Lucifer are two distinctly different individuals. The media may portray them as the same and use the names interchangeably, but that is simply not the case.

Nitpick accepted. The context in the OP of Lucifer as the "final boss" led me to conflate them. IRL I'm familiar with some of the religious texts that separate Lucifer from Satan, and that the serpent is not necessarily either of these. (I've read some interpretations that regard Satan as a title, so that Satan in the desert with Christ is not the same Satan tempting Job... but that's all really off topic).

I am unclear whether the OP conflates the two, but I assumed he did. If the villain is really on the brink of total victory, he's not going to hand the job off to even his most powerful minion.

Templarkommando

2017-01-16, 05:25 AM

Sorry, but level 12 characters don't beat entities that are "on par with gods" without a stupid amount of cheese and rules abuse.

While I would be inclined to agree with you in general (given god stats in various 3.5 ed supplements), by rule 0 the gods can be whatever CR the DM wants them to be. Maybe he wants to wrap up his campaign without inexplicably leveling everyone to epic level, and they just so happen to be about level 12.

Azoth

2017-01-16, 07:32 AM

Okay, to actually contribute to this thread in a meaningful fashion... I would throw the Half Fiend template on this guy http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/angel/angel-empyreal-tohc change up the gear and SLAs to taste and call it a day.

That is a quick and lazy way to do it.

My other idea is to start with a Aasimar base, give it the Aura of Menace & Protective Auras of Angels/Archons along with the Angel subtype traits it is missing. Go Cleric/Crusader/PRC Paladin that gets swapped for Fallen Paladin/Ruby Knight Vindicator. PRC Paladin and RKV advancing Cleric Casting.

I would keep the resistances and DR of an Angel/Celestial instead of changing them out for those of a Devil/Demon. While he may be portrayed in a negative light, there is never mention of Lucifer transubstantiating (don't get to use that word enough) into a demon/devil.

I also feel that when presented he should be described as awestrikingly beautiful (think physical perfection in the human eye) with an oppressive aura about him. Not fear inducing, but awe inspiring. After all, Lucifer was God's most favored before being cast out, the Angel he created to be the pinnacle of his pride. One who gazes with eyes most like his own, and second to no other in any capacity.

Calthropstu

2017-01-16, 08:09 AM

I already posted Lucifer's stats.

And yes, he really is second to none amongst published demigods, as a fallen true god it would be expected that he'd be amongst the most powerful of all demigods. His ire seems to be primarily directed at Asmodeous due to the whole betrayal and stealing his throne thing. Attacking this guy in his home plane would be truly suicide. I wouldn't want to go up against him with an army of 1000 20th level paladins.

Azoth

2017-01-16, 08:33 AM

CowardlyPaladin

2017-01-16, 08:42 AM

What is the personality of this Lucifer? If he is more like Dante's Satan, then he should be a giant tank, awkward, giant, incredible strong but kinda stupid. If he is more a Spring Heel Jack type creature he should be this high int/low wisdom type creature who mostly pranks people. IF we are talking Paradise Lost then he should be this absolutely terrifying entity since in Paradise Lost Lucifer is much more powerful, with a major focus on his charisma as his power source.

Calthropstu

2017-01-16, 09:34 AM

I know you posted his Pathfinder stats, but in all honesty expect level 12 characters to fight that even with rigged d20 would be like sending a toddler to kill Alucard.

Pretty much.

To be fair, trying to claim a 12th level party killed the most powerful devil of all time is pretty... silly. They couldn't even handle a pit fiend, let alone a duke of the nine hells... how are they supposed to take on a guy who is either master of hell or the former master of hell himself?

Your premise is silly.

Now I could see them maybe taking on a lesser avatar... something Lucifer sends for a "nice to have" but not absolutely essential. In that case, going with what has been suggested makes sense. But proclaiming them to have killed Lucifer himself is... no.

Segev

2017-01-16, 09:44 AM

Small nitpick, but a pet peeve of mine, Satan (the Devil) and Lucifer are two distinctly different individuals. The media may portray them as the same and use the names interchangeably, but that is simply not the case.

Which religion are you referencing? I know at least one which says that Lucifer is the Adversary. I had not heard they were distinct entities by any Christian faith, though it wouldn't surprise me. There is variance amongst the various denominations, and sometimes those variances are surprising.

hamishspence

2017-01-16, 10:37 AM

Lucifer's stats may be found HERE (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-unique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc)

That's a good example of Pathfinder importing info from 3.0-3.5 third party (the Tome of Horrors by Necromancer Games).

In the context of "WOTC 3.0-3.5" - it's not clear if there ever was a Lucifer in the history of the Planes - though I think BoVD alluded to rumors that Asmodeus was not the first ever baatezu ruler of the Nine Hells.

Calthropstu

2017-01-16, 11:10 AM

That's a good example of Pathfinder importing info from 3.0-3.5 third party (the Tome of Horrors by Necromancer Games).

In the context of "WOTC 3.0-3.5" - it's not clear if there ever was a Lucifer in the history of the Planes - though I think BoVD alluded to rumors that Asmodeus was not the first ever baatezu ruler of the Nine Hells.

Yes there is actually. In Elminster in Hell, it was mentioned that Lucifer and Lillith attempted to overthrow Asmodeous by conceiving a child and trying to hide it from Asmodeous, thus creating a hidden lord that would be able to swing the balance of power. Asmodeous destroyed that plan, banishing Lucifer somewhere and eating the child.

Azoth

2017-01-16, 11:48 AM

Which religion are you referencing? I know at least one which says that Lucifer is the Adversary. I had not heard they were distinct entities by any Christian faith, though it wouldn't surprise me. There is variance amongst the various denominations, and sometimes those variances are surprising.

The Adversary is a translation of "ha satan" in Hebrew. It can also mean the accusor, or similar things.

Mainly, the reason most Christian or really any Abrahamic religions teach that Satan and Lucifer are the same person is due to a mistranslation from Hebrew to Latin. This occurred on a wide spread scale at least as early as 300 AD.

Isiah 14:12-15 is a big source of it. Those verses are in regards to the King of Babylon, who was seen as a "bringer of light". Lucifer in Hebrew means "Morning Star" or "Light Bringer." Luke 10:18 and Revelations 9:1 have similar issues. Granted these mistranslations are mostly limited to King James versions of the Bible.

The academic world has realized the errors. For example, in 1913 Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary stated:

Lucifer \Lu"ci*fer\, n.
[L., bringing light, n., the morning star, fr. lux, lucis, light + ferre to bring.]
1. The planet Venus, when appearing as the morning star; -- applied in Isaiah by a metaphor to a king of Babylon.

In LaVeyan Satanism, Lucifer is one of the four Crown Princes of Hell.

Really the general masses and Hollywood can perpetuate the falsehood due to faulty translations most aren't aware of.

Segev

2017-01-16, 12:12 PM

The Adversary is a translation of "ha satan" in Hebrew. It can also mean the accusor, or similar things.

Mainly, the reason most Christian or really any Abrahamic religions teach that Satan and Lucifer are the same person is due to a mistranslation from Hebrew to Latin. This occurred on a wide spread scale at least as early as 300 AD.

Isiah 14:12-15 is a big source of it. Those verses are in regards to the King of Babylon, who was seen as a "bringer of light". Lucifer in Hebrew means "Morning Star" or "Light Bringer." Luke 10:18 and Revelations 9:1 have similar issues. Granted these mistranslations are mostly limited to King James versions of the Bible.

The academic world has realized the errors. For example, in 1913 Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary stated:

Lucifer \Lu"ci*fer\, n.
[L., bringing light, n., the morning star, fr. lux, lucis, light + ferre to bring.]
1. The planet Venus, when appearing as the morning star; -- applied in Isaiah by a metaphor to a king of Babylon.

In LaVeyan Satanism, Lucifer is one of the four Crown Princes of Hell.

Really the general masses and Hollywood can perpetuate the falsehood due to faulty translations most aren't aware of.

Interesting. I'll comment no further due to it being grossly off-topic. Thanks for explaining the source of your statement.

Azoth

2017-01-16, 12:28 PM

Interesting. I'll comment no further due to it being grossly off-topic. Thanks for explaining the source of your statement.

You are most welcome. I am glad we could have this exchange calmly and in a civil manner.

Stealth Marmot

2017-01-16, 02:42 PM

Sorry but I need to ask, is the bard challenging him to a fiddle competition a potential ending here?

Afgncaap5

2017-01-16, 03:43 PM

Sorry but I need to ask, is the bard challenging him to a fiddle competition a potential ending here?

I think something along these lines is a good idea, but for it to not be anticlimactic for the players I'd say it either needs to be something that the players will find incredibly challenging or for the devil to be unfairly powerful in comparison to whatever the players could customarily bring to the table. I'd almost suggest something like 4e's skill challenge system for something like that so it's not just a matter of a single roll.

Yogibear41

2017-01-16, 08:43 PM

Have a look at the Radiant Idol monster from Sharn City of Towers book. Its CR 11. If the characters are level 12, you could boost it up a bit and it would fit your theme well probably.

CowardlyPaladin

2017-01-17, 01:01 AM

The Adversary is a translation of "ha satan" in Hebrew. It can also mean the accusor, or similar things.

Mainly, the reason most Christian or really any Abrahamic religions teach that Satan and Lucifer are the same person is due to a mistranslation from Hebrew to Latin. This occurred on a wide spread scale at least as early as 300 AD.

Isiah 14:12-15 is a big source of it. Those verses are in regards to the King of Babylon, who was seen as a "bringer of light". Lucifer in Hebrew means "Morning Star" or "Light Bringer." Luke 10:18 and Revelations 9:1 have similar issues. Granted these mistranslations are mostly limited to King James versions of the Bible.

The academic world has realized the errors. For example, in 1913 Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary stated:

Lucifer \Lu"ci*fer\, n.
[L., bringing light, n., the morning star, fr. lux, lucis, light + ferre to bring.]
1. The planet Venus, when appearing as the morning star; -- applied in Isaiah by a metaphor to a king of Babylon.

In LaVeyan Satanism, Lucifer is one of the four Crown Princes of Hell.

Really the general masses and Hollywood can perpetuate the falsehood due to faulty translations most aren't aware of.

Thats not wrong but that isn't a universal opinion, Satan in Job is a very different character than Satan in the new testament, but Satan in the Old Testament isn't really a character so much as a job, he is tasked to be "The Adversary" and very early one Christianity opposed to Judaism seems to embrace the notion of Satan/Lucifer as different characters, particularly in extra-biblical accounts. Its like the Necromancer in the HObbit vs. Sauron in LOTRS, its more than just a mistranslation, it was more a different interpretation

Dusk Raven

2017-01-17, 02:03 AM

Lucifer's stats may be found HERE (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-unique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc)

Okay, to actually contribute to this thread in a meaningful fashion... I would throw the Half Fiend template on this guy http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/angel/angel-empyreal-tohc change up the gear and SLAs to taste and call it a day.

Those are both Pathfinder, OP is using 3.5e. Conversion is doable, but he'd have to know both systems.

Small nitpick, but a pet peeve of mine, Satan (the Devil) and Lucifer are two distinctly different individuals. The media may portray them as the same and use the names interchangeably, but that is simply not the case.

"The media?" More like Christianity itself (or at least modern Christianity, I dunno how long the fusion's been a thing.) Can't make "the media" the scapegoat this time. :P

Bohandas

2017-01-17, 02:34 AM

hamishspence

2017-01-17, 03:46 AM

In Elminster in Hell, it was mentioned that Lucifer and Lillith attempted to overthrow Asmodeous by conceiving a child and trying to hide it from Asmodeous, thus creating a hidden lord that would be able to swing the balance of power. Asmodeous destroyed that plan, banishing Lucifer somewhere and eating the child.
Lucifer and "Batna" not Lucifer and Lillith. And that never really fit in with the rest of 3.0. Geryon is an active servant of Asmodeus, rather than having been imprisoned the way BoVD mentions, or turned into a vestige they way Tome of Magic mentions. Lucifer in that description seems to be one of Asmodeus's underlings.

Afgncaap5

2017-01-17, 04:04 AM

Do you also have the yugoloths live in a small valley outside of jerusalem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna) rather than in a hell dimension

No, though I *do* make my version of Gehenna look a lot like a garbage dump sometimes.

Mordaedil

2017-01-17, 05:43 AM

Yes there is actually. In Elminster in Hell, it was mentioned that Lucifer and Lillith attempted to overthrow Asmodeous by conceiving a child and trying to hide it from Asmodeous, thus creating a hidden lord that would be able to swing the balance of power. Asmodeous destroyed that plan, banishing Lucifer somewhere and eating the child.

Is that book actually worth finishing? I started it and it read as if it was just Elminster masturbating about how much all his friends believes in him.

Calthropstu

2017-01-17, 08:19 AM

Those are both Pathfinder, OP is using 3.5e. Conversion is doable, but he'd have to know both systems.

Nevertheless, it is the only 3.5-ish stats available for Lucifer, and even not knowing the conversion it is still an indication of about how powerful Lucifer should be. Yes, he'll be weaker than that, probably considerably, given the quote from below but he will still be a powerful force to be reckoned with that even 20th level characters would likely have a problem with.

Lucifer and "Batna" not Lucifer and Lillith. And that never really fit in with the rest of 3.0. Geryon is an active servant of Asmodeus, rather than having been imprisoned the way BoVD mentions, or turned into a vestige they way Tome of Magic mentions. Lucifer in that description seems to be one of Asmodeus's underlings.

Yes, but he was still described as an archdevil. And Archdevils are no joke... a 12th level party will invariably be slaughtered by even those residing on the 1st of the 9 hells, let alone one who is a personal underling for Asmodeous himself.

Is that book actually worth finishing? I started it and it read as if it was just Elminster masturbating about how much all his friends believes in him.

Eh... it was ummm ok. It pretty much showcased all the super wizards bound to Mystra and all of Elminster's enemies trying to maneuver in his absence and kill him. Not his best work.

Efrate

2017-01-17, 08:39 AM

Calthropstu

2017-01-17, 08:46 AM

The fiendish codex ii tyrants of the nine hells contradicts the BoVD, insomuch as Asmodeaus was the creator of the nine hells as part of the pact primevil. It didnt exist before so Lucifer wasnt a former lord, and BoVD is 3.0 so I think its technically superceded.

Also none of the novels I ever take as athoratative. Otherwise people might think drizzt is good. Ive seen his stat block. Hes horrible.

However, was lucifer a thing in older editions by chance? I have next to no 2e or older experience, but if we was first party statted it might be nice to convert him.

I believe he was statted in the original deities and demigods, but I may be mistaken. He was mentioned in a Dragon Magazine, and it was said that Asmodeous took the realms of hell away from Lucifer, but you are correct. It was never considered canon. Elminster in Hell, however, IS canon. Lucifer is officially an Archdevil underling of Asmodeous by virtue of that book.

hamishspence

2017-01-17, 10:00 AM

The fiendish codex ii tyrants of the nine hells contradicts the BoVD, insomuch as Asmodeaus was the creator of the nine hells as part of the pact primevil. It didnt exist before

Something existed before - but it wasn't Nine Hells - it was possibly a single plane - Asmodeus's plummetting body hit the plane, and it broke into nine layers (Asmodeus's body ended up at the bottom of the ninth layer).

The residents were called "Ancient Baatorians" - remnants of them still exist on Stygia, frozen in the ice.

Elder Evils had stats for a surviving Ancient Baatorian that had ended up on the Material Plane.

Bohandas

2017-01-17, 12:06 PM

Also the nupperibos (i think it was the nupperibos) were originally written as baatorans in 2e, and souls that somehow escaped processing by the baatezu and weren't claimed by a god would eventually become nupperibos

CowardlyPaladin

2017-01-17, 04:18 PM

Isn't Batna some sort of horrible abomination that even Asmodeus himself is afraid of?

Stealth Marmot

2017-01-18, 07:33 AM

I think something along these lines is a good idea, but for it to not be anticlimactic for the players I'd say it either needs to be something that the players will find incredibly challenging or for the devil to be unfairly powerful in comparison to whatever the players could customarily bring to the table. I'd almost suggest something like 4e's skill challenge system for something like that so it's not just a matter of a single roll.

Skill roll? Naw, have the bard player challenge you in Guitar Hero. Guitar Hero 3 has the exact song needed.

Segev

2017-01-18, 08:45 AM

Isn't Batna some sort of horrible abomination that even Asmodeus himself is afraid of?

Well, obviously. But you misspelled "Batman."

CowardlyPaladin

2017-01-18, 01:44 PM

Well, obviously. But you misspelled "Batman."

well played good sir, well played indeed.

Bohandas

2017-01-21, 12:34 PM

In the context of "WOTC 3.0-3.5" - it's not clear if there ever was a Lucifer in the history of the Planes - though I think BoVD alluded to rumors that Asmodeus was not the first ever baatezu ruler of the Nine Hells.

He was the first Baatezu ruler but not the first ruler overall. He was preceded by the baatoran Zargon the Eternal, who is now in exile on the material plane.