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Neon Knight
2007-07-19, 12:29 PM
Well, I was gearing up for a PbP campaign, going over my player's sheets, when I discovered that oe of my players has... well, created a less than lethal character. Not as in chooses to do nonlethal damage, but is built so poorly a to have little to no chance of doing any damage whatsoever.

Everyone starts at ECL 3, and this guy wanted to take an LA+2 race (Half Air Elemental. What does that do, anyway?). Okay, no biggie. I figure he's gonna be a skill monkey or something. nope. He wants to be a swordsage.

We have 8 players, mostly combat oriented with good builds, so CR 5 is the average encounter I was planning on. A level 1 swordsage isn't gonna last long against opponents of that magnitude.

It gets worse. he's dual wielding a bastard sword (listed as katana on his sheet, a massive red flag to me) and a short sword. He took weapon focus for the katana.

And he doesn't have a single maneuver from Tiger Claw, the discipline good for TWF. He took a couple form every discipline except for Tiger Claw.

This is distressing to me. All my other players built effective characters, solid skillmonkeys and good melee smashers and a couple of masterfully built psions. I fear he is going to find himself not very useful in his primary function, combat.

What should I do?

valadil
2007-07-19, 12:38 PM
Some players don't mind that sort of thing. One guy in my group intentionally gimps his characters and calls it good roleplaying. While I can't agree that it's good RP, he has more fun playing that sort of character than a combat monster, so who are we to step in and tweak his character? You should probably check with the player and see if he's aware that this is the situation he's getting into.

Tyger
2007-07-19, 12:46 PM
Is the player experienced enough to know what he's done, or is he a relative newcomer to the game. If the later, maybe point out some of the issues you've noted, and let him decide. If the former, maybe he is well aware of his issues, and is planning on having a blast with it.

Either way, its not about how much damage he does, or how high his AC or BAB are. Its about how much fun he has. Maybe the character will be really fragile and die easily... oh well. Did he have fun with it?

giblina
2007-07-19, 12:47 PM
Send him a polite e-mail hilighting what you see as some basic flaws in his character design that may hurt his ability to contribute, and provide him with some recommendations about where he can make changes that follow the same general character concept but make him a lot more effective.

And if he refuses to make any changes, then maybe he'll get killed by an owl at some point and your problem is solved anyways :P

cody.burton
2007-07-19, 12:49 PM
It sounds like he may be trying to base this off of an anime character, so you could point him to the more anime-ish maneuvers (a lot in Desert Wind and Tiger Claw) and see if he can get whatever he wants from the half-air elemental template somewhere else. (i.e. Concealment granting stances from Shadow Hand can be refluffed to make him semi-ethereal and more air-like rather than darkness welling up around him - same effect, just a different description that fits more with what he wants.)

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-19, 12:52 PM
Half-Air-Elementals get +2 to every ability except STR, obscuring mist once per day, +1 natural armor, immunity to cold, and +4 to fortitude saves vs. poison.

Wow, that is suboptimal. You could just let him play a higher-level character...

EDIT: Obscuring mist is granted by a scaling ability (like the half-fiend's), by the way.

Dausuul
2007-07-19, 12:53 PM
Some players don't mind that sort of thing. One guy in my group intentionally gimps his characters and calls it good roleplaying. While I can't agree that it's good RP, he has more fun playing that sort of character than a combat monster, so who are we to step in and tweak his character?

It sorta depends... remember that such a character is likely to have to be "carried" by the other PCs, who may not take kindly to having a companion who claims a share of the party's resources but doesn't haul his own weight.

In a recent high-level campaign I played in, three of the characters were solid combat builds and the fourth was... well, not. At all, and it was a very combat-heavy game. We didn't mind giving him an equal share of the treasure and all, but when it came down to it, that guy got the short end of the stick as far as party support was concerned, because it was just so tactically stupid to waste precious rounds healing and buffing him. Sure, we'd heal him--after combat. In combat, it simply wasn't worth it. The party healer had better things to do with her time, like supporting the warblade who was dishing out 100+ damage a round and stunning anything that moved.

Far be it from me to require everyone to optimize their characters all to hell, but a character who can't do anything shouldn't be surprised when he's always the last one picked for important missions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html).


You should probably check with the player and see if he's aware that this is the situation he's getting into.

Definitely.

Darrin
2007-07-19, 12:58 PM
This is distressing to me. All my other players built effective characters, solid skillmonkeys and good melee smashers and a couple of masterfully built psions. I fear he is going to find himself not very useful in his primary function, combat.

What should I do?

The real question here isn't whether or not the character is effective in combat. It's whether the player will enjoy playing the character and will have fun during the session. If the player is entirely happy with the character as-is and is having fun, then your job is done.

If he starts whining about never being able to do anything, never doing any damage, and is just not having fun, then you can hit the "rocks fall on you, you're dead" button and toss him a new character sheet.


Optimization-wise... SwordSage is a fairly strong class, even with whatever LA he's lugging around. I'd ask him what he needs the Half-Air Elemental template for. There may be another way to get what he wants without a hefty LA (Lesser Air Genasi, break the template out into racial levels, an ability that can be better replicated via bloodlines/feats).

For the katana, find out if there's a particular PrC he's interested in. It could be he's going to pick up Oversize TWF in another level or so and the shortsword is just a stopgap until he gets the combo he wants.

As far as maneuvers, ToB is very confusing at first, and he may need a few sessions to actually try them out and see that they're sub-optimal. After the first couple of sessions, I'd let him repick his maneuvers, and gently steer him towards the Tiger Claw/TWF-friendly ones.

Neon Knight
2007-07-19, 01:01 PM
Oh dear.

One of the posters mentioned that he might be basing his design off an anime character. It's worse then that. I put the character's name into google search... and, well... I knew I should have played more video games as a child...

This is what I found. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raziel_%28Legacy_of_Kain%29)

I'm kicking myself repeatedly right now. It all makes sense. He's attempting to recreate the character I linked above. The similarities are just too numerous.

Leon
2007-07-19, 01:08 PM
Interesting choice for recreating Raziel

Let him play it and see how it turns out


Ive had a player base his PC off of Raziel - it turned out alright

LeeMon
2007-07-19, 01:08 PM
Incidentally, katanas are listed in the DMG. They are masterwork bastard swords for all statistical purposes. Wakizashis are the equivalent of masterwork short swords, as well, so I do see where he's going with that part... it looks like he's trying to equip a daisho set.

new1965
2007-07-19, 01:17 PM
It gets worse. he's dual wielding a bastard sword (listed as katana on his sheet, a massive red flag to me) and a short sword. He took weapon focus for the katana.


Im not up on swordsage but did he take exotic weapon feat:Katana/bastard sword?
If sword sage doesnt allow him to do it, he's going to that a -4 for using it one handed. That gives you a concrete starting point to discuss his character choices

Koji
2007-07-19, 01:19 PM
Raziel doesn't use katanas, and he's nothing like an air elemental...he's a vampire that eats souls instead of blood.

It sounds like he just liked the name. Raziel's weapon is some energy blade thing that is a part of his arm, and he otherwise fights with claws.

Diggorian
2007-07-19, 01:21 PM
I dislike unoriginal characters, but I think you should let him play the swordsage ands see how it turns out.

Make some suggestions to him, but it's "his" concept. If he declines changes, so be it. Let the dice fall where they may.

Neon Knight
2007-07-19, 01:33 PM
Raziel doesn't use katanas, and he's nothing like an air elemental...he's a vampire that eats souls instead of blood.

It sounds like he just liked the name. Raziel's weapon is some energy blade thing that is a part of his arm, and he otherwise fights with claws.

He'll probably say that his Air elemental heritage means he has blue skin, akin to Raziel. According to the wiki, Raziel is a wraith. Air elemental, wraith... might be be a bit of a stretch...

It is true that his weapon choice is off. We already have a soulknife which is pretty close to energy blade thing, so its not like he couldn't have gone that path. Maybe the allure of katanas was too much for his mind?

He did pick an awful lot of Shadow Hand maneuvers.

My DM gut tells me to smash this fast, before he tries to turn my game into Legacy of Kain.

Diggorian
2007-07-19, 01:42 PM
My DM gut tells me to smash this fast, before he tries to turn my game into Legacy of Kain.

Obey your bowels. :smallbiggrin:

I dont know this guy better than you, neither may most that posted. Trust your instincts but dont be too heavy handed.

lord_khaine
2007-07-19, 01:55 PM
dont listen to your gut, basing your char on something you found cool isnt actualy a crime, hold the hammer until he actualy try and eat a soul.

Roderick_BR
2007-07-19, 05:43 PM
Just warn him that you guys will get in a lot of battles, and that his character has less abilities than the others players, and say that Tiger Claw is good for TWFers. You can point out that Weapon Focus and Katanas are not worth the feats, and suggest something else.
If after that he want to keep his character, then it's his choice.

Superglucose
2007-07-19, 10:22 PM
Well, in my group we have a few characters sub-optimal. Really only my character and one of the other characters is at all good. In fact, I have a rogue in my group who does exactly what I do, only worse in every single aspect. It's fun to have them around, as long as their characters have fascinating personalities (our tank often says that he will "smash for shinies" and has a going rate... 3 gp for one 'smashing' of one 'person.' and one of our suboptimal characters narrates himself in third person, often refering to his waraxe as a shovel who is his grandfather). If his character is fresh and interesting, he can be useless in all aspects and still fun to have around.

But if he's stale, you should talk to him discreetly.

Corolinth
2007-07-19, 10:36 PM
I'm usually more inclined to hammer someone who's busting a nut over dishing out 100+ damage per round than someone who's playing a suboptimal character concept that they think is cool.

bugsysservant
2007-07-19, 10:46 PM
It is true that his weapon choice is off. We already have a soulknife which is pretty close to energy blade thing, so its not like he couldn't have gone that path. Maybe the allure of katanas was too much for his mind?

He did pick an awful lot of Shadow Hand maneuvers.

My DM gut tells me to smash this fast, before he tries to turn my game into Legacy of Kain.

Wait, this guy is suboptimal compared to a soulknife?!?!? Yeah, I would go with your gut. If he was trying to create a character that was suboptimal for original roleplaying purposes, it might be alright, but to completely ruin your character to create a cheap knock of someone else's creation is a bit much. Have him start over, preferably with something he came up with.

Superglucose
2007-07-19, 11:30 PM
I'm usually more inclined to hammer someone who's busting a nut over dishing out 100+ damage per round than someone who's playing a suboptimal character concept that they think is cool.

Very true. If he does more than bog down the game, no problems.

I once had a partymate spend thirty minues demanding we help him decide between a 'shock' enchantment and a 'flame' enchantment.