Pokemon Tabletop Adventures (HELP attacks way too high!!)

[Belladonna Took]

Okay so I recently started looking into creating a PTA roleplaying game. But I have a problem. A level 1 rattata with tackle deals 2d8+6 damage plus the rattata's attack stat (which at level 1 is 6). The formula for calculating total hitpoints is (HP*3)+level. So a level 5 budew lets say with the stats the game has laid out would have hp of 4 which if you upgrade according to the games rules, keeping the stat balance could be a 5 by level 5. So that's (5*3)+5=20. This means a rattata could easily one hit a budew that is 5 levels above it. Absorb only deals 1d6+3 damage. Which if we compare to the game, absorb is power 20 and tackle is power 40, so shouldn't tackle be more comparable to 2d6+6? I'm having trouble deciding if I think HP is too low or if attack damage is just too high. Even a minimum roll of 1 on each d8 leads to an attack of 14 damage (which some defense takes off, but still a LEVEL 1 rattata dealing 14 damage before defense? It seems way too high)

So I guess my questions are 1 should I buff HP or nerf attacks?

and two has anyone already done this?

[Inevitability]

The 3.5 forum is not the proper place to ask about Pokemon RPG's. I suggest the AD&D and Other Systems (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?60-Older-D-amp-D-AD-amp-D-and-Other-Systems) forum for that.

You can ask a mod to move your thread with the triangle symbol at the bottom left of your post.

[Der_DWSage]

It's not the proper place to ask it, but I will say that I've played PT:A and ran into a very similar problem-the GM wanted to have a proper 'unbeatable battle' with a Flygon that was 30 levels above us, and it ended up getting one-shotted with an Ice Punch. (Silly 4x weakness.) So yeah, it's not just you.

We changed the HP formula to...I believe it was HP*5 + Level*2, and it worked out much more smoothly from there. HP-tanks felt like actual tanks, while everyone else enjoyed the HP that was coming from level alone.

[Fizban]

A quick googling shows that the subject is a homebrew d20 game, so I doubt there is a more appropriate forum. (link (http://pokemontabletop.wikidot.com/start))

The reason the stats don't work is because d20 and pokemon are nothing alike, and the system is a weird hodgepodge of some base d20 mechanics followed by an almost entirely wholecloth set of pokemon inspired modifiers with dubious results. Regardless, it's not uncommon at all for pokemon to one-shot targets 5 levels higher than themselves when they're specced for attack against an enemy with low defense. I believe the reason the damage looks so high is that you're ignoring the Budew's minimum 4 defense, and forgetting that in both pokemon and d20 systems it's perfectly normal for low level characters to one-shot each other.

That said, it does also seem likely that hp is too low: brawlers in d20 systems usually have at least 10 per level, and based on that formula you need an hp stat of 9 before you even hit par. Most likely if you compare the stats of evolved forms you'll find more wiggle room.

And a further check shows that while they gave Tackle a base 2d8, scratch and pound only have 1d12. Note that 2d8 weapons are almost unheard of at 1st level in d20. More worrying are those flat modifiers on all the attacks, which don't make a lick of sense. I can only guess that they're meant to replace the usual ability score to damage you'd get, since the attack and defense stats theoretically cancel each other out (ha), but the +6's here are effectively 18 str two-handed, on the 1st level moves. So Ratatta is equipped with Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade and 18 str at 1st level, yeah that's pretty overkill. That's before you add the trainer's ability scores of course (what?), or the STAB (which is pitifully small), or weak/resist (which is huge, dnd 3.5 dropped energy weaknesses to 1.5x damage and you've got full x2/x4 here).

If I was going to suggest a d20 monster trainer system, I'd go with the Monster Trainer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/northwinter-press/monster-trainer), which actually uses normal d20 mechanics on account of being a Pathfinder splatbook. The pfsrd lacks the monster section, but the link at the bottom sends you to a $12 pdf. It's the best version I've seen of a dnd pokemon trainer.

If you're set on running Pokemon pokemon, you might be better off looking up how the games calculate damage and just literally running your combat with the game's own mechanics.

[ChaosStar]

If you're set on running Pokemon pokemon, you might be better off looking up how the games calculate damage and just literally running your combat with the game's own mechanics.

That's kinda how I've been doing it for my Final Fantasy tabletop game that I've been making, but I haven't had the inspiration to work on it in at least a year.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Maybe try looking into Pokemon Tabletop United, which I think is the updated version of PTA? You might also check out their forum (http://forums.pokemontabletop.com/index/).

[SangoProduction]

Maybe try looking into Pokemon Tabletop United, which I think is the updated version of PTA? You might also check out their forum (http://forums.pokemontabletop.com/index/).

PTU is a much improved version, but it still really doesn't solve any issues you have with stats. Sweepers (high attack / speed) just win in Pokemon. This is further exacerbated by the fact that you can freely allot your stats, more or less, to make it an even better sweeper. Trying to translate the defense to damage calculations to a tabletop setting did also buff them as well.

So yeah. Everything is really squishy.

[Belladonna Took]

Through further testing we actually found something interesting too, moves that have the same power in original game actually have different dice generally (WHAT EVEN?) So tackle power 40 is 2d8+6 and quick attack is ALSO 40 but in PTA is 1d12+6

As a new solution I'm considering a new system where power 20 = 1d6, 30 = 1d6+1, 40 = 1d8, 50 = 1d8 +1 etc etc. Not sure if it will work though, tell me your ideas~


We changed the HP formula to...I believe it was HP*5 + Level*2, and it worked out much more smoothly from there.
This might work I'll keep this in mind.


A quick googling shows that the subject is a homebrew d20 game, so I doubt there is a more appropriate forum.

Firstly, agreed thank you, I figured this was the best place for it.


More worrying are those flat modifiers on all the attacks, which don't make a lick of sense.
Agreed, no idea what these are doing here and they don't bother explaining it, which is lovely. Thinking of scrapping those entirely.


If you're set on running Pokemon pokemon, you might be better off looking up how the games calculate damage and just literally running your combat with the game's own mechanics.
See above, I'm thinking of calculating it based upon power stats in the game to make things a little more even.


Maybe try looking into Pokemon Tabletop United, which I think is the updated version of PTA? You might also check out their forum (http://forums.pokemontabletop.com/index/).
Yeah after posting this I did a little research and found PTU, will likely give it a look-over but I believe people have said it has the same combat issues.


So yeah. Everything is really squishy.
I'm generally okay with squishy but man this is too much. This is just the un-fun level of squishy and the only way you can compensate is by having trainers attack the Pokemon as well which I'm not that into.

I was hoping to find a nice in place system or someone else who has already rectified this situations but most forums I find just say "Start your party at level 20" which I'd rather not. So looks like it's rules making time. Still open to any suggestions.

[Hamste]

1d6+1 has the same average as 1d8 (both 4.5) with 1d8 just being slightly more swingy so that leads to some problems. I unfortunately don't know the system enough give any in depth suggestions.

[Karl Aegis]

Maybe use smaller dice until your attack stat hits certain thresholds. Higher level pokemon tend to have a bigger difference between minimum damage and maximum damage. Like a level 5 pokemon may take 19-23 damage from an attack, but a level 100 pokemon would take 264-289 damage.

Also consider not using baby pokemon. They are really bad.

[Fizban]

Through further testing we actually found something interesting too, moves that have the same power in original game actually have different dice generally (WHAT EVEN?) So tackle power 40 is 2d8+6 and quick attack is ALSO 40 but in PTA is 1d12+6
Actually now that I think about it, there was one generation where they upped Tackle to power 50 (and I raged so hard), might be they wrote this during that generation, not that it excuses the jump from 6.5 to 9 average damage.

[Blackhawk748]

PTU is a much improved version, but it still really doesn't solve any issues you have with stats. Sweepers (high attack / speed) just win in Pokemon. This is further exacerbated by the fact that you can freely allot your stats, more or less, to make it an even better sweeper. Trying to translate the defense to damage calculations to a tabletop setting did also buff them as well.

So yeah. Everything is really squishy.

Pure Sweepers are not the end all be all of PTU. They are olid but if they run into anything they cant end in 2 attacks (which is a surprising amount of stuff) they get rolled.

To the OP, did you allocate any stat points to HP, cuz it sounds like you havent. Also once you take Defense into account those damage numbers start to drop pretty quick. My Onix has a tendency to laugh at everything that isnt a Super Effective attack.

Another thing to remember, Defense isn't supposed to negate all of the damage, just some of it.

[ChaosStar]

Actually now that I think about it, there was one generation where they upped Tackle to power 50 (and I raged so hard), might be they wrote this during that generation, not that it excuses the jump from 6.5 to 9 average damage.

Actually just checked and Tackle's power pre-Gen 5 was 35. In Gens 5 and 6 it was 50 and Gen 7 it is 40.