Haste as a first level spell for a continous item?

[Keral]

Hi!

I'm planning on a few permanent magic items to increase my speed. Our game is a bit stingy on gold but on the other hand the Dm usually allows custom wondrous items following the item creation rules.

Now, after compiling a (short) list of spells to increase speed, the DM commented with something like "what a waste of gold, and why didn't you use haste?" After my answer of "haste is a 3rd level spell and would be too expensive", he pulled out the fact that it's a first level spell for trapsmiths.

So here we come to the center of my question:

Can I pretend the item was created by a trapsmith using the

1x1x2000x4 formula for a continous haste item? A trapsmith 1 would be caster level 1 and the spell is level 1 for that class so it would work?

It sounds terribly wonky to me, but if it's a legal choice (and the DM doesn't seem against the idea so far) I'm all for it.

Bonus points: since we're at it, could you doublecheck my math/methodology to see if all the speed increases stack/work as I think they do?

Dragon fire adept base land speed 30.
Draconic flight based on land speed so 30.
Continous expeditious retreat item for a 30 enhancement bonus on land speed. But since flying speed is based on land I get it for flying.
Cloud wings; untyped directly on flying speed +30.
Wings of swift flying; since I fly using the DFA invocation it should work, it's another untyped +30, or actually +40 since I am of dragon type.

Netting me 30+30+30+40.

When I'll be able to use greater draconic flight I'll get another 30.

Then comes haste. Which by my reading should net me additional 60 flying speed. 30 flying speed directly and 30 land speed which increases fight speed, right?

[Inevitability]

There's a reasonable argument to be made that you can't cast Haste-the-level-3-spell as part of creating the item and get an item of continuous Haste-the-level-1-spell.

[DreganHiregard]

Hi!

I'm planning on a few permanent magic items to increase my speed. Our game is a bit stingy on gold but on the other hand the Dm usually allows custom wondrous items following the item creation rules.

Now, after compiling a (short) list of spells to increase speed, the DM commented with something like "what a waste of gold, and why didn't you use haste?" After my answer of "haste is a 3rd level spell and would be too expensive", he pulled out the fact that it's a first level spell for trapsmiths.

So here we come to the center of my question:

Can I pretend the item was created by a trapsmith using the

1x1x2000x4 formula for a continous haste item? A trapsmith 1 would be caster level 1 and the spell is level 1 for that class so it would work?

It sounds terribly wonky to me, but if it's a legal choice (and the DM doesn't seem against the idea so far) I'm all for it.

Bonus points: since we're at it, could you doublecheck my math/methodology to see if all the speed increases stack/work as I think they do?

Dragon fire adept base land speed 30.
Draconic flight based on land speed so 30.
Continous expeditious retreat item for a 30 enhancement bonus on land speed. But since flying speed is based on land I get it for flying.
Cloud wings; untyped directly on flying speed +30.
Wings of swift flying; since I fly using the DFA invocation it should work, it's another untyped +30, or actually +40 since I am of dragon type.

Netting me 30+30+30+40.

When I'll be able to use greater draconic flight I'll get another 30.

Then comes haste. Which by my reading should net me additional 60 flying speed. 30 flying speed directly and 30 land speed which increases fight speed, right?


So let's start at the top:

The item of continual haste. Basically your math is correct yes. However ALL custom magic items should have their final cost determined by comparing them to other magic items. And comparing it to something more balanced like, for example a belt of haste that uses haste as a 3rd level spell, we can see the belt is obviously far too cheap and shouldn't be allowed. BUT that descision is made by your DM, not you. So is your DM said it's good then it's good.

And your fly speed is almost right, but your fly is based on your /base/ land speed so it would not get improved for having expedius retreat. BUT hast applies to all movement types and is the same bonus so if you get the item it's a moot point. Some people will argue that haste doesn't apply because it only increases your speed up to twice your normal, others say it all stacks since haste applies first, giving you full benefit, and then the other effects add on top since you can apply effects in the most favourable order. I don't have a 100% definite answer but It should stack in my opinion.

Hope this was helpful for you!

[DarkSoul]

Hi!

I'm planning on a few permanent magic items to increase my speed. Our game is a bit stingy on gold but on the other hand the Dm usually allows custom wondrous items following the item creation rules.

Now, after compiling a (short) list of spells to increase speed, the DM commented with something like "what a waste of gold, and why didn't you use haste?" After my answer of "haste is a 3rd level spell and would be too expensive", he pulled out the fact that it's a first level spell for trapsmiths.

So here we come to the center of my question:

Can I pretend the item was created by a trapsmith using the

1x1x2000x4 formula for a continous haste item? A trapsmith 1 would be caster level 1 and the spell is level 1 for that class so it would work?

It sounds terribly wonky to me, but if it's a legal choice (and the DM doesn't seem against the idea so far) I'm all for it.

Bonus points: since we're at it, could you doublecheck my math/methodology to see if all the speed increases stack/work as I think they do?

Dragon fire adept base land speed 30.
Draconic flight based on land speed so 30.
Continous expeditious retreat item for a 30 enhancement bonus on land speed. But since flying speed is based on land I get it for flying.
Cloud wings; untyped directly on flying speed +30.
Wings of swift flying; since I fly using the DFA invocation it should work, it's another untyped +30, or actually +40 since I am of dragon type.

Netting me 30+30+30+40.

When I'll be able to use greater draconic flight I'll get another 30.

Then comes haste. Which by my reading should net me additional 60 flying speed. 30 flying speed directly and 30 land speed which increases fight speed, right?Haste is an enhancement bonus to speed, so it won't stack with expeditious retreat. Regardless, a continuous haste item is likely way too good to only cost 8k. In my games, just continuous expeditious retreat boots cost 12,000 gold.

[Keral]

Yeah, by rereading haste I noticed it's an enhancement bonus like expeditous retreat, so it's either one or the other.

As for the price, I know it's terribly cheap like that, but if the dm allows it I'm not gonna turn it down :P

After all, if we were to treat it like a 3rd level spell the cost would be different. And probably appropriate to what the designers had in mind, I think.
3x5x2000x4=120000 vs 1x1x2000x4=8000 X°D

As for the haste and double speed argument, we think it works, so it's good, I think.

[ericgrau]

Basically no, it is as Keral said. But with your DM yes. He did suggest it.

You need a trapsmith to make the item or to assist in making the item (i.e., if he doesn't have the feat but you do).

The magic item creating guidelines are just guidelines, not rules, and don't always work for the reason of exactly what your DM said. It's being used to substitute for a speed boosting item even when you aren't in combat, so unlike many items where unlimited isn't much better than X/day, it has additional benefits. Plus you're avoiding standard action activation time, which is way way way more powerful. Plus you're also supposed to use existing items as reference points and there is already one that is 10 rounds per day and free action activation for 12,000 gp.

But all of that is moot since your DM is the one that suggested it. So go for it. Yes 1 x 1 x 2,000gp x 4, and you need a trapsmith with the feat to make it, or to assist someone else with the feat to make it. Since these are guidelines not rules, your DM is the one that has the final say.

The guidelines are supposed to be used to make new items that are on par with existing items, not to look for loopholes in the guidelines. So your DM is wrong, but it is impossible to determine exactly what is fair without giving the DM the last word. Plus even if it was a hard rule he can change the rules as he sees fit. So items should cost whatever your DM says they cost and you can move on. It's only a problem if other players aren't doing the same and are only using standard items from books. Then that's unfair. Or if you and the other players don't like such a high power campaign, especially when it's so much work to get the high power that you need to keep up. Then you may want to talk to the DM.

[Troacctid]

The first rule of creating custom magic items is to compare the item to existing items. That has to happen before you even look at the formulas in the table. So how much does a similar item cost? Well, conveniently there is a very similar item right there in the DMG: Boots of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed), which offer a continuous haste effect, but only for 10 rounds per day. Basically the same thing, but significantly less powerful, so a true always-on continuous effect would have to cost more. Probably a lot more.

[Keral]

Thanks guys. I also think it's way umderpriced, but well, the DM suggested it. Also there's to consider that I wouldn't use the extra attack bit, being a DFA so I'd really just use the extra movement speed and Dodge+reflex bonus.

[Troacctid]

You can take the price down if you remove that part of the spell effect.

[Keral]

Well it's already cheap for 8k Imho but i'll see what the DM says. Thanks

[P.F.]

In the campaign I'm in now, our DM allows items of mage armor and shield instead of bracers of armor and rings of force shield. He said that having carefully considered the pricing of such objects, lower-level characters need the better AC bonus anyway, and at higher levels the cost differences would be less important.

I'm going to try him on this haste item next.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yeah, it would be more appropriate to cost out the effects of the continuous Haste, and price appropriately. But hey, shine on :).

[tokyooo23]

Rather than looking for a trapsmith around the world to make your item (which they may not even have craft wondrous item) you could look for an artificer who makes things for a living and can draw from the trapsmith's spells for crafting.

Would just save you having to look for just one kind of individual to complete the task at hand.

[Crake]

Rather than looking for a trapsmith around the world to make your item (which they may not even have craft wondrous item) you could look for an artificer who makes things for a living and can draw from the trapsmith's spells for crafting.

Would just save you having to look for just one kind of individual to complete the task at hand.

A 12th level warlock or a 2nd level chameleon could also do it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, if your DM is okay with this, that's all that matters.

Just be aware that your DM is almost certainly taking a minority position here. Most DMs probably wouldn't let this fly, so be happy you have a lenient DM.

[ericgrau]

You can take the price down if you remove that part of the spell effect.

Assuming slotted item in a proper spot, such as boots:
Speed 27,000 gp (3 squared times price of speed boost from boots of striding and springing).
Dodge bonus to AC: 2,500 gp maybe (unslotted ioun stone is 5k gp for insight bonus)
Dodge bonus to reflex saves: Around 3,000 gp maybe. Or I think there's an item in MiC that could give you a better answer.

No increase to price of 2nd and 3rd abilities since they're related. So around 32,500 gp for the item.

But yeah, sounds like your DM is changing all this.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Now, after compiling a (short) list of spells to increase speed, the DM commented with something like "what a waste of gold, and why didn't you use haste?" After my answer of "haste is a 3rd level spell and would be too expensive", he pulled out the fact that it's a first level spell for trapsmiths.
That part is really all you care about. The semantics of the RAW argument don't matter; your DM has not just approved but suggested it, so go ahead.