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NickChaisson
2017-01-16, 12:55 PM
If one side of a war had WW2 era tanks and riffles and the other side had a lot of magic users/magical things, who would win/have the upper hand in the war?

I'm assuming the magical side would have fewer, better trained soldiers compared to the tank side having more, less trained soldiers.

EDIT: magic system from d&d 5e.

Two very large world powers going to war (magic elves vs technological seafaring dwarves).

ANOTHER EDIT:

I have a D&D 5e setting that I have been working on for awhile now, we have also been playing in it for the past few months.
I'm trying to work out some of the finer details and figured I was missing a bunch of stuff.
In my setting, the Elves (heavily magic based) and the Dwarves (heavily tech based) are the two largest world powers and have recently just concluded a war similar in size/scale to WW1 with around the same tech level. In the future of my game the conflict will rise again and be similar to WW2. This game takes place on Earth 250 million years into the future, though no one knows of the past civilizations on the planet.

The Elves are an old empire (inspired by England, Germany and France) and they are long lived (though not immortal). They feel their magic is superior to the Dwarves "crude" technology and are hesitant to use it, though they are starting to see the upsides of it (such as their infantry using older guns). Though they do not have a lot of the technological advancement of the Dwarves as they just use magic instead of the tech.

The Dwarves have picked up some magic from their various battles/wars with the Elves. It has never taken off as Dwarven society usually sees it as needlessly excessive and not as practical as their technology. They mostly use it to build better defenses against the Dwarves.

(If either of those civilizations views don't make sense please let me know)

I really like the points about illusion, enchantment and divination magic, because that stuff completely slipped my mind.
I can see the Dwarves having WW2 era technology in most regards, such as ships, radio and aircraft. Neither side has knowledge of nuclear power/weapons.
Riffles roll 2D10 and have a range of 210ft iirc. Handguns would do less, other weapons would obviously do more damage.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-01-16, 12:59 PM
Uhh... depends on how powerful the magic is?

Arbane
2017-01-16, 01:11 PM
If one side of a war had WW2 era tanks and riffles and the other side had a lot of magic users/magical things, who would win/have the upper hand in the war?

I'm assuming the magical side would have fewer, better trained soldiers compared to the tank side having more, less trained soldiers.

That depends entirely on what magic is capable of doing, what countermeasures are possible, and how much the commanders on both sides know about the enemy.

JoeJ
2017-01-16, 01:15 PM
Do you mean "magic users" like, say, Cugel the Clever or more like Dr. Fate?

Deophaun
2017-01-16, 01:25 PM
WWII wins for a simple reason: Magic tends to be a lonely endeavor, so there is no reason to believe the side with all the magic will have a monopoly on magic for long. It just takes one sorcerer to recognize the advantage of having an army of tanks at his disposal to settle scores before it becomes Magic vs. Magic and Tanks.

Tanks, meanwhile, need an entire logistics system to support them. One tank isn't going to go rogue, at least not for long.

Also, obligatory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZovVnSGzXo

Segev
2017-01-16, 02:39 PM
The obviously correct answer is that the Exalted win. >_> <_<

*runs and hides*

Zombimode
2017-01-16, 03:18 PM
WWII wins for a simple reason: Magic tends to be a lonely endeavor, so there is no reason to believe the side with all the magic will have a monopoly on magic for long.

Except without any further information besides the way to sparse OP there are LOTS of reasons to believe that the side with magic will have the monopoly on magic for long enough.

Just some very simple one:

Magic can't be learned.
Magic can be learned, but not by everone.
Magic can be learned, but not in a relevant timeframe.
The magic that could be stolen/learned within a relevant timeframe is simply not influencal enough.
While magic could be stolen/learned within the relevant timeframe in relevant quantity/power the magic side can prevent that.


This just shows that without further information, the question in the OP is entirely useless. Anyone answering it will make (HAS to make) assumption that will support the answer.

Deophaun
2017-01-16, 03:28 PM
Except without any further information besides the way to sparse OP there are LOTS of reasons to believe that the side with magic will have the monopoly on magic for long enough.

Just some very simple one:

Magic can't be learned.
Magic can be learned, but not by everone.
Magic can be learned, but not in a relevant timeframe.
The magic that could be stolen/learned within a relevant timeframe is simply not influencal enough.
While magic could be stolen/learned within the relevant timeframe in relevant quantity/power the magic side can prevent that.
None of which actually runs counter to the problem I pointed out, as none of these prevent random mages from casting their lot on the side with the tanks.

And the more powerful magic is, the harder it is for the magic side to have a monopoly, as powerful wizards are essentially states until themselves. There is zero reason to think they will act as a monolith. Weak mages that feel the need to subject themselves to a military hierarchy, meanwhile, likely do not pose much of a threat to an armor corps.

Zombimode
2017-01-16, 03:39 PM
None of which actually runs counter to the problem I pointed out, as none of these prevent random mages from casting their lot on the side with the tanks.

Oh, I misunderstood what you said. My bad.

Still, it doesn't change that your claim of "there is no reason to believe that" simply can't be true under the given scenario. Without any constrains it is possible to construct a scenario where there IS a reason that the magic side will act as a monolith.

I totally believe that for the scenario you picture in your head what you say is absolutely true. :smallsmile:

Frozen_Feet
2017-01-16, 03:43 PM
"Magic" is an empty buzzword, with its meaning varying from setting to setting. You HAVE to specify either a setting or a magic system for it to be a meaningful question with an actual answer.

The Glyphstone
2017-01-16, 03:44 PM
Ultimately, though, it becomes a constraint of the scenario. We're told to pit one side with tanks+guns against one side with magic, rather than alternate scenarios of tanks+magic vs. magic, or tanks vs. magic A vs. magic B vs. magic C, etc.

So it really comes down to what kind of magic, and how powerful it is, to determine whether the mundane military elements are relevant at all, or if the only hope the 'non-magical' side has is to depend on defector mages.

Anonymouswizard
2017-01-16, 03:55 PM
If one side of a war had WW2 era tanks and riffles and the other side had a lot of magic users/magical things, who would win/have the upper hand in the war?

I'm assuming the magical side would have fewer, better trained soldiers compared to the tank side having more, less trained soldiers.

First off, why are we assuming the magical side has better trained soldiers? It is entirely feasible for a WW2-era army to have better trained soldiers than the magical side.

We also have no idea what the technology level of the magical side is, so my reasoning is:
-Assuming the magic side has futuristic technology then they win due to their supertech.
-If the magic side has medieval technology then the technology side probably wins through better logistics and non-military technology, as well as planes. Mages are generally rare enough that bombing raids can probably destroy major infrastructure within a couple of days, and the technology side just has better production of food and items.
-Otherwise, it comes down to what magic can do.

TLDR; we really need more information.

Maglubiyet
2017-01-16, 04:01 PM
As many have pointed out, it depends on what type of magic we're talking about. In some cases one guy could snap his fingers and the entire enemy continent would vanish in a flash of unholy green demon fire. In other worlds the soldiers would mow down rows of scrawny, unarmored hedge mages fumbling about with spells like Strike Match and Appease the Crop Spirits.

It also depends on how large this "war" is supposed to be. Are we talking about nations of millions or just a handful of allied towns?

lightningcat
2017-01-16, 04:38 PM
Not exactly an example of this, but "Hell's Gate" by David Weber. One side has psionic communication and early industrial technology, while the other side has magic and the ability to breed new species, including dragons. It gets ugly for both sides in a hurry. But it does show how knowledge of the other side's abilities provide advantages, and lack of knowledge in war is always a bad thing.

J-H
2017-01-16, 04:41 PM
AlternateHistory.com had a great story called the Dystopic Return of Magic.

Unfortunately, you have to have an account to find it now, and accounts are hard to come by.

As I recall, the Fae (Seelie+Unseelie) returned in 1899. Evil elves. The story was set in the 1940s; the Fae controlled some areas in America, Russia, and other parts of the world, and many of the battle lines were WWI-style. Economies and societies were pretty wrecked by 40 years of war (male:female ratios were way off, etc.). The elves could deploy a killer vine that would take over a few square miles and kill thousands of men in the space of an hour - at the cost of the life of a three-hundred-year old mage - and they had flying horses. The humans had chemical weapons, era-appropriate aircraft, and had just started completing and deploying atom-bombs.

High-altitude bombing (above the altitude at which you can breathe unaided) and a-bombs were a game-changer and resulted in the 'liberation' of some areas, as I recall. Ultimately, it looked like humans would win through superior logistics. A-bombs, mustard gas, and machine guns can be produced as long as we have raw materials and factories. A 300-year-old mage who can singlehandedly win a battle still takes 300 years to produce.

Rhavin
2017-01-16, 04:49 PM
There's a book series called Hell's Gate by Ringo I think that pits these types of forces against each other. Worth a read to at least see one set of assumptions.

dps
2017-01-16, 06:27 PM
For another take on the issue, check out The Salvation War, though that has a contemporary setting with contemporary tech rather than a WWI or WWII setting.

Nifft
2017-01-16, 06:51 PM
We've got people talking about Team Tanks getting some renegade magi.

What about Team Magic getting some liberated tanks? Who needs supply lines when you can just cast transmute wood to gasoline and conjure ammo?

Alternately, subterfuge. Team Tanks might have more overt power but Team Magic can subvert that power and turn the tanks against each other, using illusions or enchantments.

tomandtish
2017-01-16, 08:44 PM
As others have pointed out, there's a lot of information we need here. What magic system? What size are the two sides? What is your definition of a war?

That last one is extremely important, because wars aren't always won in stand-up fights.

Let's take the universe of The Dresden Files. Assume The US Government (at WW2 levels, so let's say 1944) has learned of the existence of wizards, and for some reason has declared war on the White Council.

Harry himself will admit that in a straight up fight the humans win. The magic of the wizards is powerful, but it isn't going to match the US army in a stand-up fight. Numbers have a strength of their own.

But more importantly, there isn't going to be a stand-up fight. There's not going to be a battlefield where everyone just fights until one side is defeated. Many wizards can go into the NeverNever, and can open paths for other wizards. When you can open a path in Chicago, take a few steps, can come out in Scotland, you are never going to have a stand-up fight with a non-magical opponent you don't want to have. And it is canon that

You can set off a nuke in the real world, and if you stepped into the NeverNever before it went off you are just fine. Morgan did it to a skinwalker in the 50s.

So Wizards could realistically sit back, target leadership when they have the opportunity, and otherwise be ANYWHERE in the world (or not even in our world).

So yeah, we need a lot of info.

Cluedrew
2017-01-16, 08:47 PM
The obviously correct answer is that the Exalted win. >_> <_<

*runs and hides*Sadly, this might be the correct answer.

Otherwise throwing in a vote for more information.

vasilidor
2017-01-16, 10:09 PM
how about a case by case sorting with different magics?
harry potter
dungeons and dragons/pathfinder (could do each edition seperately)
shadowrun
final fantasy (could do each game seperately)
The Dresden files
Mercedes Lackey
Palladium games
Lord of the rings
Xanth
any others people might want?

Jay R
2017-01-16, 11:00 PM
In the December 1975 issue of The Strategic Review, Gygax describes a hidden movement miniatures battle he ran, with the players on different tables in different rooms. This was intended to simulate the fog of war, so each player only knows about the enemy forces that he can see.

One player was told that he was playing in a WW2 game. He was in charge of the SS patrol. The other player was there for a fantasy battle. He had an Evil High Priest with mummies, ogres, trolls, ghouls, orcs, etc.

You can read about the battle here (http://alternativeforcesofwwii.blogspot.com/2015/04/how-effective-is-panzerfaust-against.html).

vasilidor
2017-01-17, 12:09 AM
In the December 1975 issue of The Strategic Review, Gygax describes a hidden movement miniatures battle he ran, with the players on different tables in different rooms. This was intended to simulate the fog of war, so each player only knows about the enemy forces that he can see.

One player was told that he was playing in a WW2 game. He was in charge of the SS patrol. The other player was there for a fantasy battle. He had an Evil High Priest with mummies, ogres, trolls, ghouls, orcs, etc.

You can read about the battle here (http://alternativeforcesofwwii.blogspot.com/2015/04/how-effective-is-panzerfaust-against.html).

this was a singular encounter using chainmail rules. though it does provide some useful insight as to what early skirmishes might look like in the start of a war of DnD magic vs. WW2 weaponry and tactics.

Yukitsu
2017-01-17, 12:24 AM
how about a case by case sorting with different magics?
harry potter
dungeons and dragons/pathfinder (could do each edition seperately)
shadowrun
final fantasy (could do each game seperately)
The Dresden files
Mercedes Lackey
Palladium games
Lord of the rings
Xanth
any others people might want?

Harry Potter: Tech wins. Magic is situationally very powerful and strongholds like Hogwarts can hold out infinitely but they lack any sort of major ability to outfight a person with a rifle.
Dungeons and Dragons: Magic wins. Magic is so far in scope beyond what our current tech can do that it easily outstrips anything we currently have in terms of information, mobility, logistics and security that tech has no hope at all. Tech has an edge in raw destructive power however.
Shadowrun: I'd actually say tech wins despite the canon. Magic is dangerous, situational and the caster needs to be somewhat exposed to win a fight. Spirits are the major trump card but they'd literally start fighting for the tech side if mages decide to abuse summon spam too much while getting the spirits blown up over and over.
FF: The question almost becomes impossible to answer since their magic almost is more like a type of technology. I'd argue it depends on how you view the series since the games have the earth split and it deals like, enough damage to kill a rabbit but the earth is otherwise fine. If it's as the movies however, I'd be on the tech side.
Dresden Files: If it's human mages, I'd say tech wins. Dresden himself points out what makes a wizard vulnerable to tech and it's not too terribly hard to harness. If it includes the courts, I'd say magic due to scope increase. Being able to use magic to disable advanced tech is a huge edge, but the range of this ability is too close.
Lord of the Rings: Tanks. The wizards have subtle powers, but nothing that would outright win them a war.

Don't know the others personally.

NickChaisson
2017-01-17, 12:27 AM
Terribly sorry, I didn't think to specify a magic system. My bad. I was thinking of d&d 5e.

I'm thinking two very large world powers going to war (magic elves vs technological seafaring dwarves).

I shall update the OP with this information.

Fri
2017-01-17, 12:30 AM
In the December 1975 issue of The Strategic Review, Gygax describes a hidden movement miniatures battle he ran, with the players on different tables in different rooms. This was intended to simulate the fog of war, so each player only knows about the enemy forces that he can see.

One player was told that he was playing in a WW2 game. He was in charge of the SS patrol. The other player was there for a fantasy battle. He had an Evil High Priest with mummies, ogres, trolls, ghouls, orcs, etc.

You can read about the battle here (http://alternativeforcesofwwii.blogspot.com/2015/04/how-effective-is-panzerfaust-against.html).

I must admit, that's a really cool idea. Shows that gygax actually got cool ideas as gm and a lot of problem was more on interpretation.

Hawkstar
2017-01-17, 02:24 AM
As far as I'm concerned, Tanks crush gods under the steel of their treads and thunder of their cannons. Magic users aren't even a speedbump.

Faith in Iron, not False Gods.

Mastikator
2017-01-17, 04:22 AM
I bet Dr Strange could make short work of an M4 Abrams by just pushing it into the mirror dimension and leaving it there.

Anonymouswizard
2017-01-17, 07:40 AM
For D&D 5e what's the ratio of magicians to trained soldiers to conscripts? (for example 1/5/80) for the tech side we can pick a WWW army and look at them, but for DnD we have no idea.

On the subject of magic, holy great balls how many full casters do we have, and what are the wizard/cleric/druid proportions? Full casters are likely go IMG to win it, and we can assume that ~90% of those in the army are 1st-4th level, but attacking a city will draw in the level 8-12 mages who couldn't be persuaded to fight, and attacking forests will cause you to be running from the level 18 druid bears (who have shapeshifted into tigers). So really it's a close call, but assuming mages are as rare as D&D books always claim then the tech side probably wins.

khadgar567
2017-01-17, 07:42 AM
Artifier wins the moument he learns how to build warforged gun tank while whole magic side with put artificer dies horibaly

Segev
2017-01-17, 09:23 AM
D&D 5e, I'd give it to the mages. It's not as clear-cut a curbstomp as a 3.5e/PF mage could hand a modern (or WWII) military, but a lot of the same tricks apply. The biggest questions come in from 5e's reliance on a DM to interpret the rules. Especially for things like Charm conditioned effects.

Ninja_Prawn
2017-01-17, 09:48 AM
For D&D 5e what's the ratio of magicians to trained soldiers to conscripts? (for example 1/5/80) for the tech side we can pick a WWW army and look at them, but for DnD we have no idea.

This is the key question for me. 5e casters have significant power; a company of low- to mid-level casters would be easily a match for any WWII-era mundane opponents they might face on the battlefield and small squads of high-level casters would be an existential threat to command posts and high-value targets... but at some point it becomes a numbers game. If I command the Red Army, I can threaten a hundred places at once while you, with only a few hundred wizards, can only realistically defend one or two. Sure your high-level casters are a problem, but I have reserves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeHaveReserves): I can throw more bombs and rockets at them than they have spell slots to stop.

On the other hand, I'd think a few hundred thousand wizards would probably be an even match.

All assuming the DM is sensible with Wishes.

Maglubiyet
2017-01-17, 09:50 AM
WW2 vs D&D5e. wizards, I'd go with the technology.

The reason is that magic takes a long time to get good at, while a soldier with a rifle is instantly a lethal killing machine. In a normal population, the majority of wizards are going to be low level.

An M1 vs burning hands is no contest. The rifle has a far greater range, rate of fire, and number of shots. An infantry soldier could potentially carry hundreds or thousands of rounds, whereas magic users are limited to a handful of spells per day.

The equalizer would be at the higher levels and the strategies they employed. If the tech people have zero magical protection then they'll lose when a high-level wizard teleports into the command post invisibly and charms the commanding general.

But if WW2 has anything to counter that kind of thing then they'll win in any battle of attrition.

Ninja_Prawn
2017-01-17, 10:04 AM
a high-level wizard teleports into the command post invisibly and charms the commanding general.

Hmm. This strategy didn't work for Lanfear, and she wasn't even facing a modern army...

Maglubiyet
2017-01-17, 10:15 AM
Hmm. This strategy didn't work for Lanfear, and she wasn't even facing a modern army...

I'm not familiar with that work. I'm just thinking of some variation on that theme. Have a vampire approach the general through the ethereal plane while he's sleeping. Teleport a demon into the latrine. Something.

My point is that, without magical protection of some kind, a clever strategy might win the day for the wizards when they are otherwise outmatched in terms of sheer destructive force.

eru001
2017-01-17, 10:20 AM
WW2 vs D&D5e. wizards, I'd go with the technology.

The reason is that magic takes a long time to get good at, while a soldier with a rifle is instantly a lethal killing machine. In a normal population, the majority of wizards are going to be low level.

An M1 vs burning hands is no contest. The rifle has a far greater range, rate of fire, and number of shots. An infantry soldier could potentially carry hundreds or thousands of rounds, whereas magic users are limited to a handful of spells per day.

The equalizer would be at the higher levels and the strategies they employed. If the tech people have zero magical protection then they'll lose when a high-level wizard teleports into the command post invisibly and charms the commanding general.

But if WW2 has anything to counter that kind of thing then they'll win in any battle of attrition.

I can't see a whole lot of active countermeasures the WWII military could come up with but passive countermeasures I see plenty of.

Charming a high ranking general would likely fail. Not because the magic aint good, but if anyone out there has a high wisdom score, and thus a good will save, it would be a top general.

The great thing about the example of a world war 2 military is that we can look up the guys in charge of the militaries.

Dwight D. Eisenhower, allied supreme commander: His wisdom stat is probably pretty high.

One step down in allied command structure gives us men like these:
George S. Patton: Absolutely nuts, suffered from a severe brain defect which left him incapable of feeling fear, and muted in ability to feel many other emotions. Expert marksman (olympic pistol finalist) indicating high perception score, perception being derived from the wisdom stat, also was very good at determining what the enemy was going to do well in advance (see battle of the bulge) which also might indicate a high wisdom score. Verdict, difficult to charm.
Omar Bradley: Known as the soldier's general, correctly anticipated results of a large number of campaigns. Renowned for his ability to read terrain and spot enemy positions. verdict High wisdom, difficult to charm.
Bernard Law Montgomory: The Brittish Patton, slightly less crazy, significantly more tea. Verdict, Difficult to charm.

Even going toward the bottom end of the chain, you see an argument for particularly hight will saves. High wisdom stat's reflect many of the skills taught in military training. Anticipating enemy movements, perception, etc.

Also the use of illusions and other ruses of war are familiar to a modern military and part of normal training. They might not be as big a game changer as the wizards are expecting. WWII militaries were also very good at setting up their own large scale illusions.

Russian Maskirovka was particularly famous.
And the level of deception in the planning for operation overlord boggles the mind.

tomandtish
2017-01-17, 10:22 AM
Dresden Files: If it's human mages, I'd say tech wins. Dresden himself points out what makes a wizard vulnerable to tech and it's not too terribly hard to harness. If it includes the courts, I'd say magic due to scope increase. Being able to use magic to disable advanced tech is a huge edge, but the range of this ability is too close.


Whether intentionally or not, the OP may have actually given the tech side a bigger advantage by specifying WW2 tech. As you point out, the ability to disable is more effective against advanced tech. For a major chunk of the series Harry drove a VW Beetle from the 40s, and was able to cast from within it. It is the tech with a lot of electronics that is going to have the issues.

The Glyphstone
2017-01-17, 10:37 AM
High-ranking generals might be resistant to charms, but the bigger obstacle would be catching them isolated to charm them in the first place (because a mole the enemy knows is compromised is useless to you) - and if you can accomplish that, simply assassinating them would be just as disruptive. Subordinates will take over, but they're almost guaranteed to be less capable, and if they are up to the task, you can repeat the process. So command leadership would remain a high-value target, depending on their accessibility.

Segev
2017-01-17, 11:00 AM
A simple disguise self can get you a lot of places, especially if you charm a low-level person with access you need and interrogate him about things you need to impersonate him. It doesn't take much access to whammy somebody with a charm effect. You just need to be in the same room when he does a briefing or the like. Then seek him out later now that he's charmed and he'll doubtless agree to meet with you.

Once he hires you as his consultant, you can either subvert directly or work as a mole. Or just offer to negotiate your side's "surrender," and charm the enemy leaders so they want to give your side such good "surrender" terms that you practically won.

And that's using nothing but first level spells. Allow higher-level magics and it gets silly fast.

awa
2017-01-17, 11:14 AM
if its just tanks and guns vs wizards (as mentioned in the initial post not modern vs fantasy) i think the wizards will win becuase

Guns are easy to use particularly with a charmed teacher so it wont be to long before each side has them.

Tanks while powerful are specialized and wizards are incredibly versatile even something as simple as invisibility will allow you to walk right up to a tank and drop an alchemist fire in through the view port. Once you are standing on top of the tank there is basically nothing it can do about you. Illusions and enchantments turn the whole thing into a monstrous fog of war. Maybe a wizard cant out fire ball a tank gun but the wizard has more options.

A small tank would probably be size huge and thus could be animated making it much more dangerous than a normal tank. Imagine a wizard sitting in an animated tank casting buff spells on it.

I feel like people are getting distract by previous wizards vs army threads and ignoring the specifics of this question which has its own traits

Knaight
2017-01-17, 11:19 AM
Whether intentionally or not, the OP may have actually given the tech side a bigger advantage by specifying WW2 tech. As you point out, the ability to disable is more effective against advanced tech. For a major chunk of the series Harry drove a VW Beetle from the 40s, and was able to cast from within it. It is the tech with a lot of electronics that is going to have the issues.

On the other hand, WWII tech doesn't include the last 70 years of missile development, aircraft development, etc. There's all sorts of stuff that would be really useful against a fantasy army that wasn't there in WWII. Take attack helicopters, as just one non-missile example.

Ninja_Prawn
2017-01-17, 11:32 AM
Take attack helicopters, as just one non-missile example.

Might be a poor example... I imagine most mid-level wizards are well-equipped to handle attack helicopters. I mean, functionally, what's the difference between an attack helicopter and a dragon?

Knaight
2017-01-17, 11:38 AM
Might be a poor example... I imagine most mid-level wizards are well-equipped to handle attack helicopters. I mean, functionally, what's the difference between an attack helicopter and a dragon?

Dramatic differences in range, and most mid-level wizards in 5e can get stomped easily by big enough dragons anyways.

Maglubiyet
2017-01-17, 11:39 AM
what's the difference between an attack helicopter and a dragon?

(sounds like the beginning of a good joke)

But on a serious note - range. A modern attack helicopter could take you out from several kilometers away.

Anonymouswizard
2017-01-17, 11:47 AM
@awa, this is the OP.


If one side of a war had WW2 era tanks and riffles and the other side had a lot of magic users/magical things, who would win/have the upper hand in the war?

I'm assuming the magical side would have fewer, better trained soldiers compared to the tank side having more, less trained soldiers.

Note the fact it's called out as a war, and the discussion of soldiers implying it is a confrontation between armies or nations. You're talking about the singular 'wizard versus tank', while the thread is more concerned with 'nation with magicians versus nation with tanks and rifles'.

Now there are other considerations, some of which can be extracted from the question. The mere mention that tanks are involved heavily implies advanced production capabilities, allowing tanks and rifles to be replaced relatively rapidly, as well as being able to significantly outpace the other side in the production of ammunition even if the magic side did steal/reverse engineer rifles or tanks. This in turn suggests advanced agricultural techniques, allowing the technology side to produce a lot of food (although the magic side may be able to match them, so this question of supply is relatively moot).

The question also implies that the technology has more soldiers, but even if 90% of their soldiers are conscripts with only a couple of weeks of training I don't consider it a major problem. AFAIK it doesn't take anywhere near as long to teach soldiers to use a rifle to an acceptable level as it does to teach someone to use a bow, and WW2-era weapons are better at firing in and after damp conditions than crossbows, so at range the technology side probably has significantly more firepower before considering tanks and artillery. At closer ranges the magical side probably has an advantage, but the questions are 'how are they going to get there' and 'will there be enough to them to not get swamped by conscripts'.

Now, communications and similar technologies may have lagged behind. I'm not sure why, but they may have, so we can say the fastest way for the tech side to send information is anywhere from 'man on a train' to 'electricity in a wire or radio'. At the latter end the technology side has a minor disadvantage in speed compared to communications spells, but a massive advantage in capacity and number of messages sent. At the 'train' end there is a massive disadvantage in speed, but still a massive advantage in capacity (possibly an even bigger one). I'd say that at the lower end it evens out but once we get into electricity in a wire and radio waves the technology side has a massive advantage in logistics.

So it comes down to 'how many magic users are there?' a nation that is 40% 12th level wizards will win, while one with lots of 2nd level wizards and clerics with some higher level ones, but still relatively mundane will likely lose.

Segev
2017-01-17, 11:48 AM
In the Rifts game, one of the biggest advantages that tech users have in combat over mages is range. The operational range of Rifts military equipment is between half a mile and several miles. Mages rarely reach a thousand feet worth of range with their spells.

Hawkstar
2017-01-17, 12:57 PM
One advantage the spellcasters have is they could take out/over the WWII team's heavy bombers with judicious castings of Plane Shift. I regret nothing.

Zombimode
2017-01-17, 01:33 PM
I mean, functionally, what's the difference between an attack helicopter and a dragon?

... almost everything?

The similarity that both are airborne is quite superficial.

I mean, open Draconomicon and Search&Replace "Dragon" with "Attack Helicopter" and tell me how much sense the book makes. If you're Lauren Southern everything will be clear, of course

Jay R
2017-01-17, 04:19 PM
Mind control against storm troopers?

"These are not the druids you are looking for. He can go about his business."

Mr Beer
2017-01-17, 04:22 PM
Obviously depends on numerous factors but my take on it is that battlefields would likely be won by tech and strategic attacks would be won by magic.

Modern war tech is extremely effective at dealing vast amounts of damage with choices of precision, range, area effect and armour piercing variants. Even a mere grunt has a rifle, body armour and grenades and can therefore deal out many dice of damage at range.

Conversely, mages can scry for information, teleport across continents, arrive invisibly and then deal out deadly and/or destructive spells, all whilst suitably protected against bodyguard-level countermeasures.

Kane0
2017-01-17, 04:25 PM
Magic Elves vs Gun Dwarves eh?

Alrighty, lets see what some Cleric/Druid/Wizard spells can do against Rifle/Tank dwarves.

Attack cantrips (Sacred Flame, Control Flames, Acid Splash, Chill Touch, etc). Infinite use but shorter ranges and longer time between shots than a rifle. Acid splash may help against tanks, but you'd need a lot of them. These are about par with pistols rather than rifles.
Message: Magic communication somewhere between radio and walkie-talkies. No risk of interception and quieter.
Mending, Minor Illusion: Fantastic utility. Mending patches up light bullet/shrapnel damage nigh-instantaneously and minor illusion creates potentially infinite distractions and decoys.

Alarm: Magic version of existing tech, can also be set to silent alert
Catapult: Launch big things long distances accurately. Great for captured munitions you don't have many other uses for.
Magic Missile: Depending on the target's HP might be a couple free KIAs or WIAs. Not super efficient, but sometimes you can't afford to miss.
Cure Wounds: Instant 'get back up' the dwarves don't have access to. The morale effect of having to down an enemy twice or more is also worth mentioning.
Goodberry/Create/Destroy Water, Purify Food/Drink: That much harder to disrupt/corrupt supply lines when there aren't any.
Command/Charm: Fantastic for espionage, especially coupled with Disguise/Alter self
Find Familiar: Free expendable minions, can be used as for communication, cannon fodder, supply runs, etc
Fog Cloud: Magic Smoke grenade
Illusory Script/Speak with animals: Also great for espionage, secret messages are the bread and butter of undercover operatives
Mage Armor/ Shield of Faith/Shield: May or may not help against rifles
Sleep: Great against clusters of low HP targets (like conscripts)

Augury: Strategy meetings just got a little bit easier
Continual Flame: When talking logistics, every little thing you don't need to worry about anymore is a great help. Given that all elves have darkvision anyway, but still...
Detect Thoughts: Any spy worth his salt will have it. Also great for finding enemy insurgents, though being dwarves among elves they'll stand out a bit anyway
Darkness: Reverse flashbang
Enlarge/Reduce: Spies and scouts just got even harder to find
Heat Metal: Whats that? All your weapons and fancy armored crawlers are made all out of metal?
Invisibility/Pass without Trace: At this point your covert and espionage people should have *no* trouble with all of these spells available to them. Also good for setting up ambushes
Knock: Get through any lock, unlike the dwarves that are having trouble with the one you left an Arcane Lock on
Locate Object: Found out about a Dwarf McGuffin? You know where it is
Mirror Image: Protection from bullets as well as potential to be seen as having greater numbers than you do
Moonbeam: Orbital laser cannon, drag over enemy trench for maximum effectiveness.
Shatter: Potentially disable a dwarven tank with a single spell (if Heat Metal doesn't do the trick)
Spider Climb: Instant climbing gear, scale most vertical surfaces with 0 issues. Commandos love this kind of stuff.
Web: Instant patch of rough terrain, great for ambushes.

Animate Dead: More free, expendable troops!
Call Lightning: Bathe the enemy in a lightning storm. Things made of metal and that use combustible materials or electronics generally don't like lightning.
Clairvoyance: Even more scouting/spying potential. Seriously, you guys should have this down pat.
Conjure Animals: For those not inclined to raise the unholy dead to do their bidding.
Create Food/Water: Your logistics and supply guys are now almost entirely focused on spell components and foci, plus maybe clothes and stuff.
Fear: Like sleep, but better
Fireball: Magic Hand Grenade
Levitate/Fly/Gaseous Form: Can the dwarves fly? They are seafarers, so I'm guessing not. Aerial dominance goes to the magic elves.
Leomund's Tiny Hut: Handy-dandy instant bunker
Mass Healing Word: Same thing as Healing word, but now for a whole squad. Might be a little bit terrifying if you land a grenade on a group of guys then the one survivor at the back brings them all back to their feet.
Major Image: Even more convincing decoys distractions and misdirection. Sun Tsu would be proud.
Meld into stone: Great for ambushes
Plant Growth: Terrain control on demand. Also food.
Sending: Same benefits as message, but now to anyone, anywhere. You can even send directly to the enemy commander, no messengers or 'lost-in-transit' problems
Sleet Storm: Great for messing with tanks
Speak with Dead: Getting a live prisoner for questioning is now a secondary concern
Revivify: Commander got sniped? Bring him back up, just like that!
Stinking Cloud: Smoke grenade, now with added chemical warfare!
Water Breathing: Magic Scuba gear. Commandos love you even more.
Wind Wall: Ruin all their attempts to fire bullets and shells at you.
Wall of Water/Sand: More instant terrain control.

And this is only up to 3rd level spells, so level 5 casters. How common they are directly influences their effectiveness.

On the whole magic wins the surveillance and espionage battle hands down, whereas tech has the upper hand in raw destructive power. If magic users fight guerrilla style they maximise their chances of success, and depending on how spells like shatter and heat metal work precision strikes on tanks and other targets could be very effective.

Edit: Oh, forgot to mention. Spellcasters can pretty easily use at least some captured tech, but the dwarves won't have much luck doing the same with magic. Thus elves could get guns and grenades in limited amounts from seized supplies but dwarves probably wouldnt get much further than cantrips unless the war lasts a very long time (like multiple generations). There's also the chance of tech and magic being developed specifically to counter each other, but that would only unfold as the war progresses and would be beyond the scope of what we have to work with initially.
Assuming soldiers and mages train a close to equal amount (conscripts/apprentices level 1-2, trained soldiers/mages level 3-4, officers/leaders level 5+) then you're looking at a situation where the dwarves start very strong but if they don't blitzkrieg their way to victory fast the Elves adapt and overcome.

Joe the Rat
2017-01-17, 04:26 PM
Oh the Sirens' Song, it is too strong. WWII Diesel Tech vs. Wizards.

how about a case by case sorting with different magics?
harry potter - Tech, per Word of God. Shotgun beats Wizard. Wizards are too few, and even at that point muggles are too damn good at killing things. Note that wizards do adapt, but they seem to be operating at a parallel with a 3 decade lag. Wizards are very good at hiding, and can do some incredible point strikes. But the trick isn't muck up the other side's ability to steamroller you - it's mucking them up while you steamroller them. And if you can narrow down the carefully hidden communities to within a few square miles, carpet bombing will take care of your issues.

dungeons and dragons/pathfinder (could do each edition seperately) - depends on the size of the "magic" side. Your foot soldiers will be creamed: 1st level men-at-arms/warriors with automatic weapons beats 1st level men-at-arms/warriors with bows. It will take fairly large populations to hit the number of higher level casters (per the population breakdowns for 3.P) to really shift the dynamics. You do get into a weird sort of resource comparison - Diesel Tech requires specific resources to work (iron, oil, and rubber being a big part of it), while magic has more flexibility (trees can make as good of soldiers as rocks when animated) -though it does have some rare and high ticket items. Different editions have different difficulties in outfitting your side with magic items. In general, if you can tie up resources, the flying things and armored things stop working. You just need to feed your dragon... or animate it as a zombie dragon and really ride light on resources. But can you get enough of them to keep up?
"Adventurers," however, can be horrifyingly effective - commando teams with ridiculously high power and light resource needs. Also, consider that while an artillery company is a lot of logistics to move about, five wizards can be almost impossible to nail down without them using magic to skedaddle. But they have to be a lot closer to the action to be effective.
Eberron makes a unique case, as they are working towards what I read as a WWI-level magitech base (plus nukes). Where Diesel has the edge, Magitech may be able to reverse engineer it.

For the OP: 5e vs WWII - At default, there is not enough magic to make up for the lack of explosives and automatic weapons. The creature catalog makes things a bit more interesting (flyers, siege creatures, Giants-as-artillery), but the industrial versions are generally better. Unlimited cantrips with scaling damage makes them effective shooters, but there's only so much you can do. If tanks are considered Constructs rather than just vehicles, Warlocks can use Eldritch blast. Not for the damage, but the ability to force it to run over the infantry as you repelling blast one across the field. Espionage and Intelligence are probaby going to be the high points.

shadowrun - If you assume the magic keeps up with the tech, fairly even, though the magic side will utterly dominate in Intelligence. Remember the Ghost Dance effectively countered late 20th century government forces. If 2047 Magic is scaled with 2047 Tech, you are casting effects beyond modern weapon efficiency.

final fantasy (could do each game seperately) - A difference in resources. Oil vs. Soul of the Earth/Captured Spirits/Dreams of Orphans/recycled tuna. Most of them are so ridiculously magitek the difference comes in the aesthetics of the sides. I would give the industrialized magic side the edge in this regard, until it causes an apocalypse and you need a new map.

The Dresden files - Diesel wins. There's a reason the supernaturals keep quiet, and consider calling in the Police/Government the Nuclear Option. Since even hedge magic takes a degree of talent, it is difficult to field a wizard army, though you may have more success if you can summon up some nasties. Drop Binder into a supply depot, and you can have an entire division ready to go, right in the middle of things. The existence of naagolishi being known might accelerate the Manhattan project.

Mercedes Lackey - varies by system. Individual magics not so much, Plot Magic could rewrite the war.

Palladium games - The creatures are a bigger threat than the casters. Beyond the Supernatural will eat your face. Note that if you assume level parity, it's a shift in options rather than power (and again, casters are fairly rare). If you go RIFTS vs. Allies, MDC-level spells mean each caster is effectively a renewable nuke, and you're cheating.

Lord of the rings - Guns beat elves. Ents beat factories. Seriously though, tanks win. There's not enough overt combative magic running, though some of the heroes of old may be epic enough to pull of some crazy stunts, like doing a solo raid on Angband and taking out Patton.

Xanth Fighting on Earth turf, magic doesn't work. Fighting on Xanth turf... if the Diesel works (not a guarantee), it probably depends a bit on what talents and tools you can bring to bear.


Generally speaking, it's not the technology, it's the industrialization. The side with factories will out-produce in terms of armaments, and field more power, unless resources are restricted. Where magic excels, across the board, is information, espionage, and logistics (and the potential lack of need for supply lines for your "big guns").

awa
2017-01-17, 04:53 PM
harry potter magic could be effective with the kinds of powers they have been shown using but the problem isn't the magic its the wizards. They are ridiculously unaware of muggle technology witch would likely leave them very vulnerable. But with invisibility teleportation and mind control they could perform devastating covert opps. They have zones where technology simple does not function and pocket dimensions they can hide in. Even ignoring the brokenness of time travel their covert advantage would could easily turn the muggle armies against themselves. But in practice they would get wiped out

JoeJ
2017-01-17, 05:21 PM
How many spellcasters are you assuming? In the first stage of the Battle of Kursk the Germans had almost 800,000 troops with 3,000 tanks, and the Soviets close to 2,000,000 men and over 5,000 tanks. And then they both got reinforcements.

Brother Oni
2017-01-17, 07:31 PM
harry potter magic could be effective with the kinds of powers they have been shown using but the problem isn't the magic its the wizards. They are ridiculously unaware of muggle technology witch would likely leave them very vulnerable. But with invisibility teleportation and mind control they could perform devastating covert opps. They have zones where technology simple does not function and pocket dimensions they can hide in. Even ignoring the brokenness of time travel their covert advantage would could easily turn the muggle armies against themselves. But in practice they would get wiped out

Yeah, I never understood this 'magic stops technology from working' aspect of Harry Potter. Since Hagrid's running about with a crossbow, it's clear that Medieval-era technology still works and given that the wizards are all still living, it indicates that biology and chemistry is unaffected, therefore I see no reason why firearms would be affected by magic as technologically, they're very simple.

If highly magic places exuded an anti-technology field, that would mean nothing in King's Cross Station would work, there would be a technology deadzone around Diagon Alley in the middle of London and the Knight Bus would kill all patients in intensive care every time it drove past a hospital (imagine if it drove past the premature baby unit in St Bart's Children Hospital). Hogwarts would appear on Google Earth, unless that anti-tech field extends out to Low Earth Orbit (99+ miles).

It's almost as if it's a children's book series written without the intention for in depth world building. :smalltongue:

awa
2017-01-17, 08:34 PM
I thought the anti technology thing was a specific protection put in place in certain locations not an intrinsic aspect of magic.

The Glyphstone
2017-01-17, 08:55 PM
If I remember right, the technology-inhibiting/electricity-inhibiting effect is attributed to the sheer density of magic in the air around Hogwarts, rather than a specific charm or just a trait of magic in general. Something exceptional to that location. Magic and tech in HP obviously can't be inherently opposed, otherwise a good portion of the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts office would lose their jobs (plus the specifically mentioned Ministry-owned enchanted cars or the Ford Anglia wouldn't exist).

Kane0
2017-01-17, 11:39 PM
Also the 5e forum might be able to give you more specific answers.

Frozen_Feet
2017-01-18, 08:25 AM
Regarding Harry Potter: magic isn't generally incompatible with muggle technology. Rather, the wizards go out of their way to create anti-tech and anti-muggle wards to prevent being found. The general state of magic-science-synthesis is very poor, though, because wizards are often clueless about science and do their best to keep muggles clueless about magic.

No contemporary military would pose much of a threat to adult wizards. They can teleport, erase memories, disguise themselves etc. at will and they are neither organized nor encountered in a format which would be easily fought by conventional means.

What the wizards are afraid is a renewal of Salem Witch Hunts, this time with full benefit of modern weapon and information technology. Because while adult wizards are very hard to catch, kid wizards aren't. And the wizarding community is reliant on muggle-borns and half-bloods to stay healthy. We already see how inbreeding and isolationism are having negative effects on the wizarding community. If the masquerade was to break and a new anti-wizard sentiment would take global hold, wizards would have to withdraw themselves and their kids even deeper into hiding, causing those problems to worsen. Eventually wizards would lose not because wands lose to guns, but because the wizarding community itself is no longer economically, socially and genetically viable.

GloatingSwine
2017-01-18, 08:52 AM
Terribly sorry, I didn't think to specify a magic system. My bad. I was thinking of d&d 5e.


Okay, now how high level is the wizard? Because D&D magic gets progressively sillier at higher levels.

If the magic side is limited to eg. level 5 wizards they're going to be in trouble because they have limited protection spells at that point and men with rifles outrange them considerably.

If the magic side is getting any number of level 20 highly optimised wizards, well, see many threads about highly optimised wizard shenanigans.

Knaight
2017-01-18, 09:03 AM
No contemporary military would pose much of a threat to adult wizards. They can teleport, erase memories, disguise themselves etc. at will and they are neither organized nor encountered in a format which would be easily fought by conventional means.

You mean, besides just hitting their government buildings with missiles and bombs from high altitude? I think you're underestimating the capabilities of contemporary militaries here.

Jay R
2017-01-18, 09:13 AM
It depends on the encounter.

I can use WW2 units to build an easy encounter, a challenging encounter, or an over-powered encounter for just about any given magic force, and I can use magic units to build an easy encounter, a challenging encounter, or an over-powered encounter for just about any given WW2 force.

awa
2017-01-18, 09:47 AM
You mean, besides just hitting their government buildings with missiles and bombs from high altitude? I think you're underestimating the capabilities of contemporary militaries here.

yeah but finding them is effectively impossible because they can fold space, teleport and alter memories.

Teleporting is like having a drivers license every adult seems to be able to do it.

Its hard enough tracking terrorist and they use computers and have to actually travel places. Tracking people with no electronic foot print, who just appear places with no need for planes or cars, who dont use money, who can prevent people from accidentally bumping into them, and can alter memories to give them an alibi no matter what. And who can choose to live inside folded space.

Yes bombs are destructive but that's not the problem finding them is.
edit
of course if humans managed to wipe out (potter verse) wizarda i dont know they would be happy with the out come I doubt bullets are very effective against dementors

Zombimode
2017-01-18, 10:27 AM
As all the varying answers Show the question is STILL meaningless until proper constrains are given. How are the "side" defined? What Goals they have?

The question about Goals is at least as important as the question about the make-up of the side since war never about the battles. You always want something.

Ok, the "tank" side was somewhat closer defined as "WW2-like". That still leaves a lot of questions open, but at least we have a rough idea.

The "Magic" side is still pretty much undefined. Sure, D&D 5e, thats a good start. But we Need more Information.

If we look at specific Setting, as "side" could be any of the following:
- a Fantasy medieval Kingdom with wizards like Cormyr
- a cabal of mages like the Twisted Rune
- the goddess Mystra

So, even if we assume "the Red Army of 1945 plus the whole of Russia" for the "tank" side, any conflict with a "Magic" side would be drastically different depending on which side do you choose for Magic.

Hawkstar
2017-01-18, 11:10 AM
... are there any spells actually capable of competing with the range of a WWII rifle? Even fireball has half the range of a rifle, at best.

And want to know another name for a wizard under the effect of a Fly spell? Skeet.

awa
2017-01-18, 11:20 AM
its not evocation that the soldiers need to watch out for its illusion and enchantment. If the wizards try and pretend their staves are rifles they will lose because its playing to their enemies strength. But the thing is all a rifle can do is shoot while a wizard can do a lot of other things as well.

it's like saying the soldiers will lose against a base ball team because bats make better clubs then rifles, while technically true it misses the point.
edit
also i think the stated forces are elves vs dwarves so either were underground and the maximum range of a rifle doesn't matter or were in a forest and the maximum range of a rifle doesn't matter

tensai_oni
2017-01-18, 11:39 AM
A whole lot of people in this thread make a faulty assumption. The assumption being: that magic works as it does in DnD, but technology works like it does in real life.

As far as I can read from OP's intentions, this is for a game. This means a rifle might as well count as a masterwork crossbow, wielded by a level 1 fighter for all we know. Also using RL numbers in this scenario is silly. OP already specified it's between two fictional sides, just one using magic and the other with tech.

Frankly if we're talking about roughly equal numbers, then the tech side is in big trouble. A tank is no match for a decently levelled spellcaster. Technology will win only with a vast advantage of numbers, and I'm not talking pure manpower (because most of the riflemen would count as level 1 by DnD rules and thus barely able to contribute in any meaningful way), but the heavy hitting advanced equipment and possibly elite troops.

awa
2017-01-18, 11:50 AM
to be fair in 5th edition the difference between high level and low level is a lot smaller.

Hawkstar
2017-01-18, 12:04 PM
Well, if the timeframe is WWII, the Dwarves have Air Superiority hands-down. Being a 'seafaring' civilization, they have cruisers, battleships, battlecruisers providing long-range artillery, and Aircraft Carriers providing air support. They also have long-range Heavy Bombers at ground bases, Fighters, Airships/Zeppelins, Observation Balloons (Remember that artillery?), and assorted other airborn weapon platforms. Radio is inferior to magical methods, but more ubiquitous and still functional. In fact, it actually might be superior in some (or even a lot of) ways due to how it broadcasts, instead of relying on fixed-point "Sender/Recipient" systems like spells use.

awa
2017-01-18, 12:06 PM
the time frame is not ww2 they just have rifles and tanks.

Jay R
2017-01-18, 02:16 PM
... are there any spells actually capable of competing with the range of a WWII rifle? Even fireball has half the range of a rifle, at best.

Teleport. Invisibility. Protection from Arrows (works against all non-magical ranged weapons).


And want to know another name for a wizard under the effect of a Fly spell? Skeet.

In almost any situation, I'd call him "fool" if he isn't also under the effect of either Invisibility or Protection from Arrows.
---------

It's also worth remembering that they'd probably shoot all the funny-looking guys carrying weapons before bothering to target the guy in a dress.

awa
2017-01-18, 02:23 PM
I actually dont know if a 5th edition wizard can both fly and be invisible concentration often limits it to only one buff spell.

Aeson
2017-01-18, 02:37 PM
the time frame is not ww2 they just have rifles and tanks.
From the original post:

If one side of a war had WW2 era tanks and rifles

That looks a hell of a lot like the "technology" side has a WWII-equivalent tech base, because in order to be able to field WW2-era rifles and tanks they need to have the appropriate infrastructure to support it. They might not have the naval units, but it'd be surprising for them not to have some kind of air force given that they're in a setting where they'd have had experience fighting against forces which do have air forces, or at least air-mobile forces, and given that the ground forces are WWII-style I'd expect the air forces to be similar.


also i think the stated forces are elves vs dwarves so either were underground and the maximum range of a rifle doesn't matter or were in a forest and the maximum range of a rifle doesn't matter
That's an extremely questionable assumption even in settings where all dwarves live in tunnels and all elves live in woodland areas. The major entrances to the dwarven tunnel system don't need to be in the elven woodlands, just nearby, say a few miles away in the middle of an open savanna or other grassy plain. For that matter, in fantasy settings you can also get ridiculously large caverns, and even in the real world you can have exceptionally long, straight, and open tunnels if you decide to make them that way.

Added to that, WWII-era military forces have the ability to deforest regions with heavy artillery bombardments and incendiaries. Magic can counteract at least some of that, of course, but if I can force your spellcasters to blow their spell slots stopping forest fires, regrowing the trees in the areas that I've given Spruance haircuts, and shielding regions against artillery or aerial bombardments, I've neutralized a significant fraction of your magical firepower.

There's also the issue that most DnD-style spellcasters have much less sustained power than riflemen, tanks, or artillery pieces which are supported by an industrial base comparable to any one of the major states involved in WWII, and on top of that it's only really the big spells which are all that comparable to artillery and all that much of a direct threat to tanks anyways. If this is a large-scale confrontation, relying on magic for your heavy weapons support is probably very close to limiting the tanks and artillery to something like 20 shells per day, and quite a bit less if we're talking about mostly low-level magic users rather than mostly upper-teen to 20th level magic users. If I have the numbers for it, I can keep on coming until you run out of magic, at which point your medieval-esque supporting forces are more or less screwed.

Anonymouswizard
2017-01-18, 02:42 PM
the time frame is not ww2 they just have rifles and tanks.

This is debatable. Having rifles and tanks in anywhere near significant numbers implies more advance manufacturing at least, at which it becomes easiest to try and work out the impact of each separate 'area' of technology. As it stands, the rifles and tanks are probably the least impactful compared to the possible ability to easily move items in bulk (far beyond that a 5e wizard can accomplish, but below 3.X Tippyverse levels) or send everyone in your nation a radio message. I've specifically not discussed the possible impact of computing technology because honestly that's significantly up in the air and as I see it the one area that may significantly lag behind the rest of technology.

You keep making statements that we don't know for sure. That's why there's so much argument, if we look entirely at military technology it becomes a simple matter of how many mages, if we include the rest (especially communication and production, although transportation is also massive) then it becomes less clear and we have to ask if the ability to send a message instantly to one recipient with no chance of corruption is better than sending a radio signal at c (or comparing say Fabricate abuse to factories). It becomes messy and really we need to know the approximate technological and magical capabilities of both sides in several areas.

That is why we're not concentrating on just rifles and tanks, because alongside them comes a whole load of technology, both military and civilian, that could tip the balance one way or another. While it's hard for the technology side to compete when it comes to assassination or intelligence gathering, every other area is a great big ?until we have more information.

Also, I would like to mention that technological advances rarely happen in isolation. I find it near unbelievable to believe that a civilisation would have tanks and WW2-era rifles without at least the motor car, train, WW1-era artillery, motorised boats, factories, advanced agriculture techniques, and a few varieties of agricultural machines (including a variation on the tractor and some sort of thresher). Note that even without electricity and radio this is a massive technological advancement compared to D&D's assumptions.

Note that this does meant that even if I do run pulp sci-fi it includes advanced computers and other technologies that were not conceived of during the golden age of pulp.

EDIT: ninja'd, that'll teach me not to ramble.

awa
2017-01-18, 02:46 PM
he never said it has a ww2 style industrial base he just said tanks and guns.

These could be hand crafted diesel punk tanks and guns, not mass produced weapons. You should not assume the dwarvens have any more then we have been told. If he wanted it to be a world ww2 army vs magic than he should have said so, since he mentioned a very specific set of equipment i'm going to assume he said what he meant and assume the dwarves dont have planes or artillery or anything else.

While tanks could destroy a forest eventually that would be massively inefficient and while their wasting their assets trying to do that the elves can do something actually useful like assassinating their leadership.

Kane0
2017-01-18, 03:17 PM
That was the assumption i was going on in my post, is why i never mentioned automatic weapons.

Maybe something along the lines of Boom Beach dwarves vs D&D Elves might be a good reference point.

Frozen_Feet
2017-01-18, 03:33 PM
You mean, besides just hitting their government buildings with missiles and bombs from high altitude? I think you're underestimating the capabilities of contemporary militaries here.
No sane nation uses missiles and carpet bombing against individual human targets within their own borders. Any fight against wizards would be an extreme example of civilian asymmetric warfare. Conventional military tactics and majority of weapons are simply inapplicable.

The same applies in case of all other magic systems which allow magic-users to easily hide within mundane populations. A second example would be Ninjutsu from Naruto. Nearly every shinobi can disguise as any other person or object they have seen and they can create copies of themselves to obfuscate their real position. Logically, such abilities being widespread would make conventional armies obsolete - which is exactly what happened in the Naruto setting, with Shinobi displacing the earlier Samurai caste and replacing national militaries.

Anonymouswizard
2017-01-18, 04:10 PM
he never said it has a ww2 style industrial base he just said tanks and guns.

These could be hand crafted diesel punk tanks and guns, not mass produced weapons. You should not assume the dwarvens have any more then we have been told. If he wanted it to be a world ww2 army vs magic than he should have said so, since he mentioned a very specific set of equipment i'm going to assume he said what he meant and assume the dwarves dont have planes or artillery or anything else.

While tanks could destroy a forest eventually that would be massively inefficient and while their wasting their assets trying to do that the elves can do something actually useful like assassinating their leadership.

The problem is technology does not exist in isolation.

Please explain to me how dwarves have only invited firearms and tanks, and not trains, better agriculture, factories, artillery, and so on and so forth. If you can do that I'll except it, but although technology levels aren't a thing you won't find a culture that has only developed one variety of technology.

EDIT: I won't go into why hand crafted tanks might as well be a waste of time, but essentially you're implying a really weird set of technologies, like FTL travel alongside flintlock muskets.

NickChaisson
2017-01-18, 04:30 PM
Thank you all for the responses so far. I shall try to be more specific in any future posts.

I have a D&D 5e setting that I have been working on for awhile now, we have also been playing in it for the past few months.
I'm trying to work out some of the finer details and figured I was missing a bunch of stuff.
In my setting, the Elves (heavily magic based) and the Dwarves (heavily tech based) are the two largest world powers and have recently just concluded a war similar in size/scale to WW1 with around the same tech level. In the future of my game the conflict will rise again and be similar to WW2. This game takes place on Earth 250 million years into the future, though no one knows of the past civilizations on the planet.

The Elves are an old empire (inspired by England, Germany and France) and they are long lived (though not immortal). They feel their magic is superior to the Dwarves "crude" technology and are hesitant to use it, though they are starting to see the upsides of it (such as their infantry using older guns). Though they do not have a lot of the technological advancement of the Dwarves as they just use magic instead of the tech.

The Dwarves have picked up some magic from their various battles/wars with the Elves. It has never taken off as Dwarven society usually sees it as needlessly excessive and not as practical as their technology. They mostly use it to build better defenses against the Dwarves.

(If either of those civilizations views don't make sense please let me know)

I really like the points about illusion, enchantment and divination magic, because that stuff completely slipped my mind.
I can see the Dwarves having WW2 era technology in most regards, such as ships, radio and aircraft. Neither side has knowledge of nuclear power/weapons.
Riffles roll 2D10 and have a range of 210ft iirc. Handguns would do less, other weapons would obviously do more damage.

I really appreciate everyone's responses, again, sorry for not providing enough information (I hope this information helps). I will edit the OP to reflect this new information.

Yukitsu
2017-01-18, 04:49 PM
I'd say the elves should have a massive colonial empire that they control through subtle manipulation magic. While the tech in these colonies doesn't match that of the dwarves, they still fight with guns, tanks and cannons much like the dwarves and in huge numbers. The magic comes in from the tiny proportion of commissioned officers who are elves that provide powerful magic support. I think they should also have industrialized the construction of magical items to some extent which could include things like magic fortresses, flying islands covered in anti-aircraft potential or items that summon massive beasts that can fight the dwarven tanks and aircraft.

So think a massive magical flying island covered in short range magic crystals that fire at enemy aircraft that fly in close, and which has an air strip that deploys colonials in old, obsolete fighter craft against the more advanced dwarven fighters.

awa
2017-01-18, 04:57 PM
The problem is technology does not exist in isolation.

Please explain to me how dwarves have only invited firearms and tanks, and not trains, better agriculture, factories, artillery, and so on and so forth. If you can do that I'll except it, but although technology levels aren't a thing you won't find a culture that has only developed one variety of technology.

EDIT: I won't go into why hand crafted tanks might as well be a waste of time, but essentially you're implying a really weird set of technologies, like FTL travel alongside flintlock muskets.

Its fantasy not science fiction d&d itself is anachronistic with full plate armor and no guns. There are tons of fantasy setting where clockwork robots and ornithopters predate guns. In fantasy technology totally exists in isolation if you want it to. Steam tanks are not that uncommon in fantasy setting and they often they exists without any kind of modern manufacturing to go along with it.

It might not be scientific but then that's why its not science fiction

of course none of that is relevant because the setting has been clarified

Anonymouswizard
2017-01-18, 05:20 PM
Its fantasy not science fiction d&d itself is anachronistic with full plate armor and no guns. There are tons of fantasy setting where clockwork robots and ornithopters predate guns. In fantasy technology totally exists in isolation if you want it to. Steam tanks are not that uncommon in fantasy setting and they often they exists without any kind of modern manufacturing to go along with it.

It might not be scientific but then that's why its not science fiction

of course none of that is relevant because the setting has been clarified

Of course, there's this thing called 'suspension of disbelief', that comes at different points for different people. I can believe that gothic plate armour might develop without guns, even though it's unlikely (although there are other possible reasons), but once we're getting up to post-industrial revolution levels anything that would be a common sight on the battlefield would imply manufacturing.

Also, I would like to clarify that I personally hate Steam Tanks before modern manufacturing as anything serious, as they're a huge waste to time to build and highly dangerous to the users. I prefer my fantasy grounded, I like Berserk because, despite the fact that some technology probably shouldn't exist (like Griffith's armour) everything seems to blend work well together and nothing feels out of place (and almost every bit of technology is realistic). I tend to have a massive preference for science fiction because of this, the next game I plan to run is the Red Planet setting for Fate Core (which isn't hard science fiction but has fun ideas and does justify the lack of certain technology for the 'protagonist' faction).

For the record, I personally love high tech fantasy, the setting I really want to play in is Brandon Sanderson's Wax and Wayne books (a Mistborn subseries with technology you'd normally see in Westerns, I own the core rules for MAG but not the Alloy of Law book).

vasilidor
2017-01-18, 05:45 PM
I would not call it a 100% chance of tank victory with the harry potter and shadowrun magic types. I also won't say it will be easy for either side. the idea in the shadowrun cannon was that it was a major human sacrifice ritual (with willing sacrifices, which is apparently stronger than using unwilling sacrifices by an order of magnitude) was what won the war for the magic native tribes, thereby allowing the creation of tornadoes and volcanoes on demand. the reason for the harry potter style to have a decent chance of victory has more to do with the imperious curse than anything else.

vasilidor
2017-01-18, 05:51 PM
in response to the question of DnD 5th edition magic versus guys with rifles and tanks, on a pure damage basis the guys with rifles and tanks win. especially with the rifles doing 2d10 base damage(assuming a ww2/ww1 fire rates especially).
the elves really would in such a conflict become more dependent upon illusions and enchantments to win the day.

Kane0
2017-01-18, 06:38 PM
Well, that changes things.

Dwarves with a full WWII arsenal vs Elves with a WWI arsenal supplemented with 5e magic gets murky fast.

In a straight fight the dwarves have the advantage, though with numbers and strategy the elves can beat them. Even though WWI gear is at a disadvantage to its WWII counterparts the elves still have access to guns, explosives, cannons, ships and aircraft. Aerial superiority would go to the dwarves giving them a serious advantage but the intelligence and espionage game would still belong to the elves, especially with more exposure to dwarves in general.

Most importantly the Elven ability to ignore tradition in order to adapt and take the enemies' strengths as their own is what will afford them victory, with magic granting much superior intelligence gathering abilities the dwarven edge can be taken away with a few successful schematic raids. Meanwhile the poor dwarves are still stuck having to learn magic the old fashioned way if they wanted to counter elven magic in a meaningful way. Tech and Magic are two different arms races at the moment, it won't be long before they merge. This war will probably do it.

In order for either side to win they need to attack before the other is prepared while also preventing their tech/magic from being taken and used by the enemy while also developing new stuff faster than the enemy. Preserve advantages, negate disadvantages.

Knaight
2017-01-18, 07:45 PM
No sane nation uses missiles and carpet bombing against individual human targets within their own borders. Any fight against wizards would be an extreme example of civilian asymmetric warfare. Conventional military tactics and majority of weapons are simply inapplicable.

Who said anything about individual human targets? There's a lot more than one wizard at the various government buildings, and as far as civilian asymmetric warfare goes with the HP wizards it's a questionable fit at best. HP wizards have extensive infrastructure, lots of permanent settlements, and while all of them have some pretty impressive superpowers they're broadly vulnerable to being picked off by surprise. On top of that, the bulk of them are civilians - yes, they get a bit of combat training, but that only counts for so much.

Flickerdart
2017-01-18, 07:52 PM
"WWII era" doesn't mean as much as you might think. Tanks at the beginning of the war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_I) were little more than glorified tractors with machine guns on top, and armies used 19th century rifle designs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant). Tanks at the end of the war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IS_tank_family#IS-2) dealt death at a 16km range, and rifles fired 10 times per second (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StG_44).

awa
2017-01-18, 07:53 PM
my gut instinct is to go with the dwarves assuming their competent. Lots and lots of dogs trained to bark and point at the scent of elves dramatically reduces the effectiveness of a lot of low level illusions, and prevents invisible elves from just sneaking up to the tanks. Launching artillery or plane based poison gas into the forest ahead of time can reduce the effect of ambushes and so on. I mean high enough level wizards can win in sufficient numbers but with both numbers and technology that's a huge disadvantage.

Of course magic is better for small elite strike forces that can afford the best most exotic toys, the best ww2 rifle is probably not much better than the average ww2 rifle, and if my experience with d&d says anything its that the 4-6 man strike force somehow seems to be the only thing that matters particularly if they are the underdogs.

awa
2017-01-18, 08:09 PM
Who said anything about individual human targets? There's a lot more than one wizard at the various government buildings, and as far as civilian asymmetric warfare goes with the HP wizards it's a questionable fit at best. HP wizards have extensive infrastructure, lots of permanent settlements, and while all of them have some pretty impressive superpowers they're broadly vulnerable to being picked off by surprise. On top of that, the bulk of them are civilians - yes, they get a bit of combat training, but that only counts for so much.

but how do you find that government building the people literally teleport to work? Besides so what you broke the building how does that really help you? They don't have a traditional military so destroying the government only removes the incompetent obstructing bureaucrats who were telling them not to use muggle technology and at the same time shown them how dangerous they are.
now what happens when a muggle born wizard pissed you killed a bunch of his coworkers and having seen how deadly conventional weapons are takes his camping gear (hold a whole house inside a tent), teleports to a military base mind controls the guards into filling it with bombs then modifies their memory (turn them into sleeper agents maybe? don't know how much you can modify memory) then takes a few hundred tons of explosives and a couple nukes teleports his broom stick over a major city and opens the tent as he flies by before teleporting a way. A minor low level bureaucrat has accesses to all of these resources as a lone wolf actor with no electronic foot print, who uses no money and can attack anywhere at any time and lives in an extra-dimensional space possibly on the other side of the world.

edit
Once you start killing wizards they can easily become even harder to detect and one wizard whose pissed enough can virtually end human civilization. The mind control curse literal gives you abilities you don't have in order to complete commands which can make deadly assassins out of anyone at virtually no cost. Mind control people into starting nuclear wars or just going on a rampage, you cant stop him from teleporting and you cant find him hidden in a extra-dimensional area.

The Glyphstone
2017-01-18, 08:22 PM
That does, tangentially, bring up a good point. What is 'winning' here? Both sides could, at least in theory, wage a scorched-earth campaign of annihilation. Does that count as a 'win' for either side?

Traab
2017-01-18, 08:45 PM
how about a case by case sorting with different magics?
harry potter
dungeons and dragons/pathfinder (could do each edition seperately)
shadowrun
final fantasy (could do each game seperately)
The Dresden files
Mercedes Lackey
Palladium games
Lord of the rings
Xanth
any others people might want?

Final Fantasy Afaik, they tend to run magic AND tech, so I give them the win in general. They have their airships, battle tanks of their own, and of course magic of various sorts.

Dresden is messy. The white council is very very strong, but they are only a handful of wizards, and unlike a soldier who can be trained inside a month or two, a wizard takes roughly a century to hit their magical peak, though as dresden shows, even a relatively young (for a wizard) caster can be dangerous. However, they have intensely superior mobility and the ability to unleash hell in various unexpected forms. This would be a guerilla war, and would likely revolve around alliances. Would the vamp courts work with the wizards under the realization that they might be next to get targeted? What about the various fae courts? One downside for the wizards. As we learn very well, wizards can be taken out by skilled snipers and never even realize it in time to use their death curse

Mercedes Lackey. Im thinking even at its magic using height, Valdemar is going to get wrecked. Yes there are some very powerful spellcasters in the ranks, and yes they have a lot of very nice abilities like foresight to get visions of the future, and far sight for highly effective spying, but I think they would get steamrolled by a blitzkrieg tank assault. Tanks are a lot tougher than men on horseback. Im not sure if lightning bolts would be enough to incapacitate a tank or not, but even so, there are a lot more where that came from and aside from the offensive mind arts and mage gift, they have NOTHING that can kill a tank.

LOTR Pfft, tanks win. This is an almost obnoxiously low magic setting where just a few years previous, the second most powerful wizard of the time was ready to suicide to a bunch of goblins and wolves because his burning pinecones wasnt enough to win. Maybe, MAYBE, if they could get close enough, trolls/ents would be strong enough to take down tanks, but they dont have anything that can protect them from tank shells or even the regular bullets. They couldnt even hang out at helms deep or minas tirith, the tanks would quite quickly obliterate their walls and never even slow down their advance.

Yukitsu
2017-01-18, 09:01 PM
That does, tangentially, bring up a good point. What is 'winning' here? Both sides could, at least in theory, wage a scorched-earth campaign of annihilation. Does that count as a 'win' for either side?

It's the same as real life. Any side can engage in this form of warfare, but if you are using scorched earth tactics and are incapable of then defeating the invading army, you lose. See Russia using this and destroying 6th army as compared to the retreating Germans doing the same only to be besieged successfully at Berlin by the Soviet army. Scorched earth and annihilation are strategies you pursue but they aren't a "win" or not sort of question.

The Glyphstone
2017-01-18, 09:09 PM
It's the same as real life. Any side can engage in this form of warfare, but if you are using scorched earth tactics and are incapable of then defeating the invading army, you lose. See Russia using this and destroying 6th army as compared to the retreating Germans doing the same only to be besieged successfully at Berlin by the Soviet army.

The difference is that here the 'losing' side can scorched-earth their opponent's territory, whether that is via aerial bombardment or teleporting wizards. The ability to deep-strike enemy population centers and manufacturing/food production areas with impunity can rapidly reduce anyone's ability to wage war to zero in classic M.A.D. fashion.

Is the only winning move not to play?

Yukitsu
2017-01-18, 09:14 PM
The difference is that here the 'losing' side can scorched-earth their opponent's territory, whether that is via aerial bombardment or teleporting wizards. The ability to deep-strike enemy population centers and manufacturing/food production areas with impunity can rapidly reduce anyone's ability to wage war to zero in classic M.A.D. fashion.

Is the only winning move not to play?

Not with most magic in 5E and not with WWII era weapons, including WWII era nukes. That was a part of the doctrine of strategic bombing and it didn't work at all.

awa
2017-01-18, 09:23 PM
I feel like the elves have the advantage their becuase the dwarves need a minimum infrastructure to perform heavy bombing, but a single teleporting caster can go on murderous rampages with virtual impunity and no outside resources.

A warlock could cause crazy damge by nailing them over an over every hour with spells like control water or control weather.

Traab
2017-01-19, 12:17 AM
Can these 5.e casters summon incorporeal creatures by any chance? If so, they just need to bring up a solid force of them, tell them to go kill the tank crews during the night, then hang back well out of range. There is literally nothing the tank crews can do but run away from this. They have no magic, no force armor, nothing to protect them from say, a swarm of specters or wraiths. Using specters they wouldnt even know they are under attack until the screaming starts. And since they self propagate, the army would only grow larger as they go.

JoeJ
2017-01-19, 12:54 AM
In almost any situation, I'd call him "fool" if he isn't also under the effect of either Invisibility or Protection from Arrows.

You can't concentrate on Fly and Invisibility at the same time. And Protection from Arrows isn't a thing.

awa
2017-01-19, 08:05 AM
I'm not positive but I dont think incorporeal is as powerful in 5th edition I think things like wraiths are resistant but not immune to physical attacks.

Also I dont think they self replicate as well anymore