UNEARTHED ARCANA - Ranger & Rogue [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

jaappleton

2017-01-16, 01:28 PM

Rogue - Scout is... bad. I'd rather simply be a Thief. Nothing about it is really good.

Ranger? I've noticed a trend; Granting bonus spells based on Conclave. I've long said that the Hunter and Beast Master should get bonus spells as well.

I'm glad it works with other Ranger styles, PHB and Revised.

Horizon Walker is alright. A bit campaign dependent.

Guardian is... I see what they're striving for. They get a transform into a guardian of the land style ability. But it's... It's a lesser version of the Ancients Paladin capstone, but that 5ft speed is very rough. Very, very rough.

If I wanted the "Green Knight" vibe, Ancients Paladin is a superior way to go, IMO.

Trum4n1208

2017-01-16, 01:29 PM

I like Horizon Walker, but can't say I love it fluff wise. Mechanically, it seems okay. Primeval Guardian is just odd to me. It could be useful for locking down a choke-point, but seems too restricted. I personally don't care for it. Scout Rogue seems to be another attempt to make a spell-less ranger. It's okay. I'm kind of expecting to see more Rogue options next week.

jaappleton

2017-01-16, 01:31 PM

First reaction is that I love the theme and execution of the Horizon Walker. Ignoring resistances and extra force damage is a really useful feature against planars, but also lots of other monsters.

The primeval guardian seems more like a druid circle; not sure how it would work with the rest of the ranger feature.

Too bad wasn't another Rogue option beyond scout, but it seems fine.

Rogues have also received a lot of love in the books. SCAG gave them two new archetypes. Though only one archetype in UA does seem... low.

I think they already have an archetype or two they like for whatever it is they're planning (PHB 2? Eberron campaign book?), and they haven't shown it yet. Like how Mastermind never saw any playtest, it just showed up in SCAG.

Vogonjeltz

2017-01-16, 01:34 PM

Wow, unlimited healing from ancient fortitude seems...a tad excessive.

Re: Scout, survivalist, superior mobility, and sudden strike are good.

Skirmisher seems pointless, except to preempt an attempt to surround you; Ambush Master is totally worthless if you don't have the best Initiative in the group.

DireSickFish

2017-01-16, 01:36 PM

Horizon Walker is cool and the easiest to implement out of all of these. There's a bit of overlap with the lvl3 feature and Hunters mark for bonus action space, but it's not to bad.

Primeval Guardian is cool, but I find it weird they get unlimited self healing at lvl7. Then at lvl 15 you can heal the whole party up to full. Guardian From is a bonus action so there's nothing to stop you from turning it on and off as you need it. Makes you a much much tankier character.

Scout abilities seem kinda bad. And I'm not sure what Sudden strike is trying to so. I can Sneak Attack twice, but not on the same target? I think?

Xethik

2017-01-16, 01:40 PM

Wow, unlimited healing from ancient fortitude seems...a tad excessive.

Yeah I feel like either Guardian Soul used to have a usage limit or that it is supposed to currently have one.

Primeval Guardian is cool, but I find it weird they get unlimited self healing at lvl7. Then at lvl 15 you can heal the whole party up to full.
Only up to half (plus half your ranger level) on party members. But yeah. Seems a bit much.

Oramac

2017-01-16, 01:42 PM

I'm a bit underwhelmed by the Ranger subtypes. Then again, my ranger fantasy was completely fulfilled by the Revised Ranger UA, so I'm the wrong guy to ask.

The Rogue subtype is interesting. I could see it being a lot of fun in a wilderness campaign, especially something that focuses on exploration more than combat. Also, that capstone is pretty damn awesome too.

eastmabl

2017-01-16, 01:46 PM

No limitations on Guardian Soul, aside from "incapacitated"?

It's probably a sign that it's not very good - or poorly thought out.

Belac93

2017-01-16, 01:48 PM

Love the new ranger archetypes, the rogue one bores me a little. Index will get an update once I get home.

And can I just say that horizon walker seems a lot like the main character from shadow of Mordor.

TentacleSurpris

2017-01-16, 01:50 PM

My initial thoughts:

Horizon Walker

I really don't like the concept of the class. It's something that will be out-of-place in 99% of campaigns. But I guess there aren't that many ideas for Ranger archetypes.

Planar Warrior is neat, but it again marginalizes dual-wielding. More and more, that fighting style is a trap. Novice players shouldn't feel screwed over by their 2nd level choice when they get to 3rd level. Most novice players don't read ahead in textbook, they just pick what they want and have fun. I had hoped they had banished advanced character building in this edition. I had hoped that an ability to overcome weapon resistance would fix the dual-wielders problem with weapon resistance (it's twice as hard to find 2 magic weapons) but alas, they only made dual-wielding feel worse.

Portal lore is a ribbon that will only be useful in some campaigns, and even in those campaigns, it won't be necessary (otherwise the adventure roadblocks when the Ranger player is busy one week).

Distant Strike seems like a lot of fun. Even against one enemy, you can teleport back and forth through him.

Spectral Defense is Uncanny dodge but it works against saving-throw based damage. This is a good feature.

Primeval Guardian

Guardian Soul: I like the ability here, but it needs some kind of inherent rooting feature. Having only 5 feet of movement makes for an interesting character restriction. This ability should grant a pullback whenever you hit with a melee weapon attack, the enemy is drawn back to adjacent to you, even on AoOs. That way when enemies try to run away you can yank them back in.

Rooted Defense: 11th level for Rangers usually grants an offensive ability that boosts damage in some way. If this ever boots damage it will be very rare.

Guardian Aura: I really like this feature. It can be hit or miss but it will turn the tide of battles.

Scout

Skirmish: I think they really got Skirmish right. One question, "ending ones movement" isn't really a hard game rule. If the scout skirmishes away from me, if I have more movement, I will just chase them down. So this feature may not be useful as often as some players might think. But it will help. A ranged skirmisher will be very hard to hit and will potentially waste a few monster's turns.

Ambush Master: I feel this ability is overcomplicated and under-useful. it should work as a Reaction, thereby not wasting your bonus action. And there shouldn't be a cap on your ally's initiative. That would shorten the text and make it more useful. Rogues have enough to do with their Bonus action, giving allies a bonus of +5 might not help them go before the enemies if they are already higher, or if they are 6 or more points lower in initiative. As written, it will very rarely be a factor. If you roll lower on initiative than the enemies, this ability does nothing.

Sudden Strike: Does this allow you to sneak attack two enemies on your turn? That seems like the intent.

Nicrosil

2017-01-16, 01:51 PM

My thoughts:

Horizon Walker: It's interesting. The flavor indicates romping between planes, but the mechanics deal mostly with ethereal travel. I'm guessing they recognize not every game deals with extraplanar drama, and want a subclass that can function either way. Distant Strike seems powerful; it's like a free disengage and an extra attack. Well, not an Extra Attack, since that wouldn't stack, but you get the idea. Actually, looking at the revised ranger archetypes, they all seem to have similar 11th level abilities, so I'm worrying over nothing.

Primeval Guardian: You know you're going to have a player pick it to become Groot. In all seriousness, I like that it lets the ranger switch roles in combat between fast skirmisher and tank. I remember a discussion back during the monk UA, someone said that some subclasses enhance the main class, while others offer new, yet competing, mechanics. The Primeval Guardian seems to be an example of the latter.

Scout: Had this been released 6 months ago, there would have been outrage. "The ranger is dead!" I guess this is to placate people who want a spell-less ranger. Sudden Strike seems powerful, but the wording confuses me. "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can make one additional attack as a bonus action. This attack can benefit from your Sneak Attack even if you have already used it this turn, but only if the attack is the only one you make against the target this turn." I'm guessing that means for this to work you need two targets: one to attack with the attack action, and one to attack with your bonus action attack, both of which could get sneak attack. It would emphasize the skirmishing aspect of the subclass more.

I am sad about one thing though. I was planning on doing a UA campaign, where the players could only pick subclasses from this most recent batch, but with only one rogue subclass, I either have to open up options from other UA, or say there's only one subclass to chose. Also, I may be forgetting something, but I think the only rogue subclass UA we've had is the Inquisitor.

Ovarwa

2017-01-16, 01:59 PM

Primeval Guardian is rather good, even with 5ft movement. If you really need to move, spend 1 turn out of form. Or let the wizard teleport you to a choke point.

Unlimited self-healing. Heal everyone else in the party up to 50%, rinse and repeat.

Sentinel and maybe Tunnel Fighter?

Dex, Str and maybe even Wis (+magic initiate) build variations seem interesting.

Longbow and conjure animals for range.

Multiclass moon druid to stack PG and wildshape?

Kileonhardt

2017-01-16, 02:00 PM

Though it's limited by campaign I like the Horizon Walker. Distant Strike with a bow kind of lets you pretend there are multiple people firing from behind cover (against unintelligent enemies) so long as you have enough objects within range to teleport behind, so that's cool.

Primeval Guardian just makes me think of Bear Totem Barb 3 / Primeval Guardian 7+. Use a bow and turn into a large object of cover with tons of hp and damage resistance for your rogue or wizard, or if things move in close just be the ultimate tree tank.

Scout is...... disappointing, though rogues already have a bunch of archetype options.

Giant2005

2017-01-16, 02:02 PM

Guardian is really OP. It is tanky as hell, has infinite self-heals, can use large weapons, and most annoyingly: gets a super powerful ability that really shames the Champion's already super powerful level 18 ability.
The Horizon Walker seems really good though. A little bit powerful, but Ranger subclasses are supposed to be. My only real issue with it is Planar Warrior using a Bonus Action. WotC seems determined to do everything they can to ensure no Ranger ever dual wields.
The Scout is pretty good but not amazing. Rogue subclasses just don't tend to be very interesting because virtually all of a Rogue's strength comes from the main class.

Temperjoke

2017-01-16, 02:03 PM

Horizon Walker - This is another class that relates to alternate planes; I noted before that this has been a theme among the latest existing class UAs, they've all had classes that related to planes such as the Feywild and Shadowfell. Looks pretty straightforward too.

Primeval Guardian - this feels more like a druid class than a ranger class, especially since a big part of druids is their ability to wildshape

Scout - Why is this a rogue? This feels more like a ranger than the original hunter ranger does.

Potato_Priest

2017-01-16, 02:05 PM

Primeval Guardian is cool, but I find it weird they get unlimited self healing at lvl7. Then at lvl 15 you can heal the whole party up to full. Guardian From is a bonus action so there's nothing to stop you from turning it on and off as you need it. Makes you a much much tankier character.

I don't think they do get unlimited self heals at lvl 7. Their hit point max just goes up a bit.

I think I'd be interested in making a grappler ranger now using the primeval guardian path, and I think that planar warrior is an awesome ability. Even works against bearbarians!

I like both the ranger subtypes, but I'm less of a fan of the rogue one, which seems very mild, especially considering the levels in which most gameplay takes place.

Matticusrex

2017-01-16, 02:05 PM

Infinite healing on the primeval guardian with temp health every turn is pretty damn busted for a martial, 5 feet of movement is not that bad when you can just use a ranged weapon or end it with another bonus action.

Unless WoTC limit tree form to x/short rest, I dont see this being allowed at most tables.

twas_Brillig

2017-01-16, 02:06 PM

The 5ft movement speed on Guardian Soul definitely feels like it needs to be paired with a traditional plant monster video game ability: either limited teleportation ("root walking" or tree stride or something), a pull like TentacleSurpris said, or something. Rooting would be useful, but you still have to meander up to someone you root, even with reach. You can use a bow, but most of the features aren't as useful that way: you heal, but you aren't taking as much damage; you have reach, but you don't need it; you're large, but you're not grappling anybody; you heal people, but anyone taking damage may be too far away for it to do any good.

I kind of like the spoopy, ghost-y feel for the Horizon Walker.

I don't have any strong feelings about the Scout, but I like that you can now be a multiclassed Scout/Scout (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/04_UA_Classics_Revisited.pdf).

EDIT:

I don't think they do get unlimited self heals at lvl 7. Their hit point max just goes up a bit.

[...]your hit point maximum then returns tonormal, but your current hit points remain the same, unless they must decrease to abide by your hit point maximum.
You gain 2 hit points per ranger level every time you use it, as long as you aren't taking damage.

Mellack

2017-01-16, 02:08 PM

BlackDragonKing

2017-01-16, 02:09 PM

Guardian seems like an interesting archetype for a polearm master/sentinel build, although I feel that it's mostly interesting just in that it's so different from the rest of the ranger subclasses. Horizon Walker's kinda dull.

I feel like the Revised Ranger and its three subclasses are still the way to go with Rangers, and I don't expect that Guardian will be edging out Hunter or Stalker at a lot of tables. Guardian is an extremely reactive, defensive set of abilities, but players almost always prefer to be proactive in my experience.

Scout is...OK. It doesn't really do anything very interesting, but it's another way to make a spell-less ranger, I guess.

Levistej

2017-01-16, 02:11 PM

When the primeval guardian changes size, does his weapon damage also change? What if he hapens to carry arround a large sized weapon with him all the time that he can then effectivaly use? I kind of like the idea of a dwarf carrying around an oversized hammer that he gets to smash people to pieces with once he engages his groot mode.

Regitnui

2017-01-16, 02:14 PM

The usual Eberron Flavour Post;

Horizon Walker sounds a bit like the Planar Shepherd prestige class introduced for the Druids and Rangers of Eberron. With the concept of manifest zones being a huge thing in Eberron's nastier adventures (Sharn being a manifest zone to Syrania means that the entire place is one determined saboteur away from being a pile of rubble. Again), the idea of a planar ranger isn't so farfetched there. Also, the Edgewalkers of Riedra guard the more vicious zones of Sarlona, where the planes merge instead of merely touching like on Khorvaire... This covers them too.

The other two? Scouts are wartime things, and the other ranger doesn't sound much different to existing class options.

Naanomi

2017-01-16, 02:15 PM

Scout means we could now rock 12 out of 18(19) skills with expertise with extensive multiclassing

Mordrigar

2017-01-16, 02:15 PM

This UA smells like 3.5 Edition.

"Horizon Walker" is an old ranger Prestige Class. But UA added some flavors to it. That portal thing was an ex ability for Planar Shepherd (Eberron spesific Prestige Class from 3.5e) Nothing original and unnecessary if you ask me. The problem of ranger is, the class is not unique. Everything a ranger can do, another class do it better. There is no unique mechanic for core Ranger class and they're trying to add unique mechanics with those archetypes. So far, they only managed to find unique mechanic for Beastmaster. But still, ranger is the most "meh" class. Barbarian has Rage, Paladin has smite, sorcerers have metamagic, warlocks has totally intersting and new play style. But Rangers are just dull. I think this is why they keep adding archetypes for Ranger. Horizon Walker is another bad, dull option for core ranger.

People on reddit, 4chan and forums (including here) were asking for Shapeshift Ranger. Now they got it. I think I like Primeval Guardian more than Horizon Walker. Thinking about about Undead Elven guardians they can shoot enemies from afar or crush them in Guardian Form. But I don't think I'll ever use Primeval Guardian as a PC. It is more like GM-PC material for me. I think movement restriction is a huge downside but it is thematically good and useful in dungeon-like areas. Not all-around good archetype but it has some spots to shine I think. But I'm saying again: I think this archetype is a great GM material.

Scout? Eh, another 3.5e base class. In older editions it has Sneak Attack-like feature. In 3,5 if you move 10 feet then attack, it adds 1d6 (increases by levels) extra "Skirmish" damage. Damage scaling was worse than Rogue's SA but the class was in between Ranger and Rogue. Now Scout has Sneak Attack (which is far better than old Skirmish) and ability to move. It seems they still want to see Scout same way: Mobile, slightly good with bows.

Scout could be the most mobile class in the game. with "Cunning Action" feature, the scout always could be in distance from his/her enemies. Level 17 ability looks good but if I'm not misreading, it allows you to Sneak Attack 2 times in a round but you have to target 2 different enemies. So, in ideal world, you catch your target by surprise, attack 2 times and kill its guardians with your high Sneak Attack Damage and when they run to hit you, move back and hide again to attack again. Looks good but I prefer Deepstalker for this strategy.

Overall, scout looks good but nothing original, still playable.

MeeposFire

2017-01-16, 02:19 PM

First reaction is that I love the theme and execution of the Horizon Walker. Ignoring resistances and extra force damage is a really useful feature against planars, but also lots of other monsters.

The primeval guardian seems more like a druid circle; not sure how it would work with the rest of the ranger feature.

Too bad wasn't another Rogue option beyond scout, but it seems fine.

Oddly a tree bodied ranger was actually a thing back in 2e. YOu take the right kit and you would end up looking like this as your ranger.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sgWFcaDbx2c/U_XKb1pwY1I/AAAAAAAACQ4/l1CklsI3u5E/s1600/greenwoodRanger.jpg

Add a way to get your third arm again and it would be complete.

DireSickFish

2017-01-16, 02:19 PM

I don't think they do get unlimited self heals at lvl 7. Their hit point max just goes up a bit.

I think I'd be interested in making a grappler ranger now using the primeval guardian path, and I think that planar warrior is an awesome ability. Even works against bearbarians!

I like both the ranger subtypes, but I'm less of a fan of the rogue one, which seems very mild, especially considering the levels in which most gameplay takes place.

Your max hp and current hp both go up by 2hp/Ranger lvl, and when you shift out of the shape only your max hp drops. So yes, infinite healing.

jas61292

2017-01-16, 02:21 PM

A note on the Rogue's Skirmisher power. You can move at the end of the turn when an opponent is next to you. How usefull is this? Rogues already have cunning action to let them disengage. It won't keep opponents from attacking the rogue as they have presumably attacked before they ended their turn.

Archery. If you are not an archer, you are doing it wrong.

Sure, you can just disengage as a bonus action. But as an archer, you do not want to be in melee, period. An archer in melee normaly would be forced to either disengage or dash, either remaining in range for the opponent next round, or taking an opportunity attack. Or they could do both, but then lose out on their own attack.

An ability that activates when you get into a bad spot, that let's you get out of it for free, is fantastic. What's more, between the reaction and your own movement, you are likely out of movement range of the enemy without having used a single action or bonus action, vastly increasing your options.

Drackolus

2017-01-16, 02:27 PM

They're all pretty cool. Horizon walker is neat. It's kind of like deep stalker, where it is written with a clear role bit is still a good ranger in other situations (I made a deep stalker who just hunts bandits at night, still thematically makes sense.)
I am tempted to abuse the bonus speed from the scout. Lvl 9 wood elf scout with mobile has 55 base speed. Could put the rest into monk too if really desired. Not to mention even MORE expertise.
They also work with the spell-less ranger too, just ignore the spell list (what I did with the deep stalker). Thematically makes less sense since they are both magic themed, but a possibility.

I assume the guardian's ability is supposed to have limited uses. Still pretty cool. Could use a whip and darts if you want to be able to hit more targets. Sentinel+tunnel fighter makes it pretty tough I suspect.

I have one friend who likes teleporting warriors and one who likes trees and nature themes. Should be a fun ua for them.

I'm glad they did two classes. I was bummed that I was gonna have to wait for sorcerer, warlock, and wizard (cmon generalist!)

Naanomi

2017-01-16, 02:32 PM

Harrumphreys

2017-01-16, 02:34 PM

Revised Ranger Bugbear Primeval Guardian with the Tunnel Fighter fighting style and the Sentinel feat wielding a Halberd, Polearm Master also.

Millstone85

2017-01-16, 02:38 PM

The last time UA had a scout, it was a fighter (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/04_UA_Classics_Revisited.pdf). Now, it is a rogue. Well, okay then.

As for the primeval guardian, it makes me think of the 4e warden class.

SharkForce

2017-01-16, 02:51 PM

primeval guardian looks ridiculously too strong. also, RIP champion. once upon a time you had a fairly unique ability that was powerful in certain specific situations. then they gave it to another guy plus made it an aura, and more powerful in general. and also, that other guy has an almost equally good ability, but he starts getting it at level 3 and doesn't need to give up ASIs.

not seeing the unlimited self-heal argument though... it's once per short or long rest. that's still a fair chunk of healing, but it isn't unlimited (although in certain campaigns it might feel that way, and combined with the temp HP every round they got at third, it is a ridiculous amount of toughness for that specific character).

DireSickFish

2017-01-16, 02:55 PM

not seeing the unlimited self-heal argument though... it's once per short or long rest. that's still a fair chunk of healing, but it isn't unlimited (although in certain campaigns it might feel that way, and combined with the temp HP every round they got at third, it is a ridiculous amount of toughness for that specific character).

His transformation isn't limited as far as I can see. Thus you can just keep transforming to get the 2hp per ranger level.

Harrumphreys

2017-01-16, 02:57 PM

not seeing the unlimited self-heal argument though... it's once per short or long rest.

Hrrrm, is it?

Drackolus

2017-01-16, 03:01 PM

Revised Ranger Bugbear Primeval Guardian with the Tunnel Fighter fighting style and the Sentinel feat wielding a Halberd, Polearm Master also.

Pffffft hahahaha I have to do this :smallbiggrin:

Naanomi

2017-01-16, 03:04 PM

Pffffft hahahaha I have to do this :smallbiggrin:
Martial Adept feat for reach attack, just in case ?

VoxRationis

2017-01-16, 03:14 PM

If I'm reading this correctly, the "Guardian Soul" ability (the early-game tree-form one) is usable at will, but "Ancient Fortitude" (the one that gives you persistent healing) is once per rest.

If I'm reading Guardian Soul correctly, it gets interesting on account of the temporary hit points accruing continuously throughout the time you're in tree form. So you become tanky, but only tankier as the combat continues if the enemy tries to focus on your other party members first. Overall, I think Primeval Guardian is interesting, and makes for a mechanically interesting tank, if perhaps too powerful for existing balance (though I can't weigh in on that definitively, as I haven't examined the balance of martial characters in the depth other members of this forum have). I don't mind that it's a bit druidic, on account of the rangers already having 5 levels of not-quite-druid spells, and more importantly, now that the Scout gives us a pretty good spell-free ranger! Expertise on Nature and Survival, bonuses to ambushes, and the ability to sneak attack multiple enemies!

SharkForce

2017-01-16, 03:23 PM

His transformation isn't limited as far as I can see. Thus you can just keep transforming to get the 2hp per ranger level.

you can use the 2 HP per ranger level increase once per short or long rest. transform all you want. only one of those transformations comes with the hit point increase until you rest again.

@ voxrationis: iirc, temporary hit points don't stack.

Levistej

2017-01-16, 03:26 PM

I think an Eladrin Primeval guardian to partially eliminate the lack of movement speed would be the way to go. Since there is no info on increasing damage like the enlarge/reduce spell has, i believe that the damage would go up by one weapon die.

So wielding a Halberd you would have a 2d10 damage weapon with 15 feet of reach. Add in sentinel and you're quite the tank, regardless of your reduced speed.

Harrumphreys

2017-01-16, 03:26 PM

Oh ho, they've updated the pdf already!

Ancient Fortitude is now every Short or Long Rest.

Syll

2017-01-16, 03:28 PM

I'm absolutely in love with Distant Strike for horizon walker; my only complaint being that it is at lvl 11, and the infrequency of reaching that level in order to actually play with it ; ;

Millstone85

2017-01-16, 03:28 PM

Oh ho, they've updated the pdf already!

Ancient Fortitude is now every Short or Long Rest.How peculiar. It hasn't updated yet for me.

Ilorin Lorati

2017-01-16, 03:29 PM

MinotaurWarrior

2017-01-16, 03:30 PM

The Primeval Guardian does have a rooting ability - entangle. They also get enhance ability for grappling. Additionally, this form makes their natural off-turn reach 10', arguably meaning they can grapple enemies and keep them outside of melee range locked down.

Scout's initial ability needs a clause to handle having already selected those skills. It also sucks until it becomes great at level 17.

Arcangel4774

2017-01-16, 03:31 PM

You gain 2 hit points per ranger level every time you use it, as long as you aren't taking damage.

You're can only use this feature once per rest

Edit: people already have been saying this. My bad

Syll

2017-01-16, 03:32 PM

How peculiar. It hasn't updated yet for me.

I just checked this as well, it is not updated for me either.

Kileonhardt

2017-01-16, 03:32 PM

How peculiar. It hasn't updated yet for me.

Same. And I've been refreshing the page every 5-10mins waiting for balance changes to come in.

Giant2005

2017-01-16, 03:33 PM

Oh ho, they've updated the pdf already!

Ancient Fortitude is now every Short or Long Rest.

Weird, I downloaded it again and it hasn't been updated for me.

Harrumphreys

2017-01-16, 03:34 PM

Um, you're not just looking at a pdf that you've already downloaded right?

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/ranger-and-rogue

Download a fresh, updated copy.

Giant2005

2017-01-16, 03:37 PM

Um, you're not just looking at a pdf that you've already downloaded right?

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/ranger-and-rogue

Download a fresh, updated copy.

I can only speak for myself, but I am not an idiot.

Millstone85

2017-01-16, 03:41 PM

Um, you're not just looking at a pdf that you've already downloaded right?Apparently, following the link without clearing my browser history amounted to just that.

Edit: And now it is gone again. Okay, help an idiot please.

Giant2005

2017-01-16, 03:45 PM

Apparently, following the link without clearing my browser history amounted to just that.

Clearing my browser history didn't make a difference.
I'm starting to think it might be region locked somehow.

Flashy

2017-01-16, 03:47 PM

I honestly just see goblins running into range, shooting, and running back out; I can't close the gap anymore.

The form isn't always on or limited use. You can toggle it as a bonus action.

Levistej

2017-01-16, 03:48 PM

Yap, no change for me either, eastern Europe here

Giant2005

2017-01-16, 03:49 PM

If they have updated this UA, it makes me wonder if they have stealth updated any of the earlier ones?

SharkForce

2017-01-16, 03:49 PM

Clearing my browser history didn't make a difference.
I'm starting to think it might be region locked somehow.

that would be pretty odd for them to region lock it to canada (which is where i live).

Millstone85

2017-01-16, 03:50 PM

Yap, no change for me either, eastern Europe hereI am in western Europe.

Giant2005

2017-01-16, 03:52 PM

that would be pretty odd for them to region lock it to canada (which is where i live).

Those of us that can't get the update as of yet all seem to be intercontinental (Two Europeans and an Aussie at latest count).

TheTeaMustFlow

2017-01-16, 03:52 PM

Also in Western Europe (the UK, to be precise), can't see any changes. Damned Colonials!

Harrumphreys

2017-01-16, 03:52 PM

UK for me.

(sorry for earlier, didn't mean to be rude in talking about viewing a downloaded pdf, I should have chosen my phrasing better)

Kileonhardt

2017-01-16, 03:53 PM

Those of us that can't get the update as of yet all seem to be intercontinental (Two Europeans and an Aussie at latest count).

California here and don't have the update. First thing I did when people said it got stealth changed was clear my browser too.

Even opening it on multiple devices and it's not updated.

Bugado25

2017-01-16, 03:54 PM

My thoughs about the archetypes.

Nothing here caught my attention, other than highlighting the problems of TWF again.
Most of the spells are situational.

I think Planar Warrior should deal the extra d6 with no action requirement and the bonus action is only necessary for ignoring resistances.

Portal lore is completely campaign dependent, but that was probably the intention anyway.

Ethereal Step and Distant Strike are interesting, but the latter encourages kiting, one thing that I find very annoying.

Spectral Defense is Uncanny Dodge but better.

My favorite from this UA, but it really needs some changes because it’s overpowered.
The spells are much better and less situational than the Horizon Walker ones, especially Entangle and Conjure Animals.

Guardian Soul is incredible thematically, but also incredibly overpowered. It really needs to specify that you can’t use Large Weapons. Although the Temp HP does not do much at low levels, but it kind of outclasses the only saving grace of the Champion archetype at high levels. I think this should go and they should add some kind of armor class to the Groot form. Something like:

“At guardian form your armor class becomes 17, unless it is higher, as your skin becomes as strong as wood. This counts as armor for the purpose of Defense Fighting Style. You can benefit from wearing a shield”

This gives the form a defensive benefit and stimulates strength builds, a thing I would really like because “Dexterous” and “Trees” aren’t two words commonly associated.

I also think they should add the ability to cast Thorn Whip while on Groot form. Maybe using your Strength Modifier for the DC.

I would also prefer to limit the usage of ranged weapons at this form. This should be the tanking archetype, and you’re not tanking if you are 100 feet away with a long bow. At least they should add an advantage for being melee.

Piercing Thorns is fine. Maybe the advantage to melee I just suggested could be here. Just make it only work with melee weapons.

They made a sneaky update to Ancient fortitude. I have the pdf open both on my PC and on my tablet. On the tablet it says it is only once per rest, on the PC it does not. That considered, I think it’s fine.
Rotted Defense is good.

Guardian Aura is giving Survivor Feature to the whole party 3 LEVELS EARLIER. This needs to go.

Scout

Spell-less Ranger take 3rd or 4th.

Nothing outstanding, but Rogue archetypes are all like that. Too much power on the base class. I think it is ok. It also stimulates kiting and as I said above, I don’t like it.

Drackolus

2017-01-16, 03:54 PM

Martial Adept feat for reach attack, just in case ?

Or just be a spell-less ranger :smallwink:

TheTeaMustFlow

2017-01-16, 03:54 PM

UK for me.

(sorry for earlier, didn't mean to be rude in talking about viewing a downloaded pdf, I should have chosen my phrasing better)

California here and don't have the update. First thing I did when people said it got stealth changed was clear my browser too.

Hmm, this seems to scotch the location theory. Browser used, maybe? I'm on chrome.

LaserFace

2017-01-16, 03:55 PM

I dig the Horizon Walker, but don't feel like I have much interest in the other two. I guess a Scout layout might be potentially useful, though.

Kileonhardt

2017-01-16, 03:56 PM

Hmm, this seems to scotch the location theory. Browser used, maybe? I'm on chrome.

Also on chrome but I've opened it on safari on my ipad too and no changes.

DireSickFish

2017-01-16, 03:56 PM

Oh ho, they've updated the pdf already!

Ancient Fortitude is now every Short or Long Rest.

Okay they did change it. Thought I was going crazy when I looked and it had a limit.

SharkForce

2017-01-16, 03:56 PM

Hmm, this seems to scotch the location theory. Browser used, maybe? I'm on chrome.

a really old version of firefox here. (edit: for clarity, i am one of the ones that *could* see it)

8wGremlin

2017-01-16, 04:03 PM

Ancient FortitudeAt 7th level, you gain the endurance of the ancient forests. Your hit point maximum and current hit points increase by 2 per ranger level when you assume your guardian form. This increase lasts until you leave the form; your hit point maximum then returns to normal, but your current hit points remain the same, unless they must decrease to abide by your hit point maximum.

that's what I have

Caelestion

2017-01-16, 04:15 PM

I just downloaded it for the first time and I have the short or long rest text.

Vogonjeltz

2017-01-16, 04:19 PM

Levistej

2017-01-16, 04:22 PM

Well, if you happen to pick up a large sized weapon from a giant or some other size category appropriate foe, I can't see why this wouldn't fly at my table.

Bugado25

2017-01-16, 04:22 PM

5e doesn't have rules for weapons having different sizes; so there's no such thing as an oversized hammer (unless you just mean a maul)

There are rules for other weapon sizes on the DMG. It is only intended for monsters and completely broken for players. And we all know that players will try to use large weapons.

CursedRhubarb

2017-01-16, 04:26 PM

Looks like an interesting UA. From looks through it, I get the feel that:
Portal Ranger is still good for ranged but melee might get more of a boost from it.
Groot Ranger will work in a variety of rolls. But can be fierce in melle or buff as heck in the back.
(Would love to see an encounter with an Inquisition group made of a Primeval Guardian Ranger, a Circle of Dreams Druid, and a couple of Zealot Barbarians. At lvl 15 they just won't die with all the healing going on so long as they stay withing the tree's range, and the druid can teleport the tree if need be.)

Scout looks good. It looks to be a ranged focused option for rogues and with the majority of rogue beef coming from the base class it looks to be good.

Levistej

2017-01-16, 04:27 PM

Yap, as a DM I really can't see how I would justify telling my player why he can't wield that large sized greataxe he lifted from the dead giant in his last combat.

Vogonjeltz

2017-01-16, 04:27 PM

http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2017_01_UA_RangerRogue_0117JCMM.pdf

PDF Link still has no rest limits.

Sicarius Victis

2017-01-16, 04:39 PM

http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2017_01_UA_RangerRogue_0117JCMM.pdf

PDF Link still has no rest limits.

Does for me. The specific link you posted, too.

Mellack

2017-01-16, 04:39 PM

It shows the limits for me.

Harrumphreys

2017-01-16, 04:39 PM

http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2017_01_UA_RangerRogue_0117JCMM.pdf

PDF Link still has no rest limits.

I'm clicking that exact link in your post and the pdf has Rest limits.

Anywhoo, it's pretty obvious that different users can see different pdfs even when derived in the same way. It doesn't really matter, as it's obvious that the designers released a 'stealth patch' when they realised their mistake.

What build do you think is the better build for the Primeval Guardian?

Abuse the Reach, with a Tunnel Fighting Bugbear and Halberd and grab Sentinel and Polearm Master when possible
Become a 'Huge' Duergar with their innate Enlarge ability, able to Grapple enemies outside of their own combat range whilst being able to lift and throw incredible weights with some shield bash from Shield Master thrown in

Vogonjeltz

2017-01-16, 04:47 PM

There are rules for other weapon sizes on the DMG. It is only intended for monsters and completely broken for players. And we all know that players will try to use large weapons.

Afb, what page?

Kileonhardt

2017-01-16, 04:59 PM

What build do you think is the better build for the Primeval Guardian?

Abuse the Reach, with a Tunnel Fighting Bugbear and Halberd and grab Sentinel and Polearm Master when possible
Become a 'Huge' Duergar with their innate Enlarge ability, able to Grapple enemies outside of their own combat range whilst being able to lift and throw incredible weights with some shield bash from Shield Master thrown in

I don't think Bugbear is needed. You don't really need the extra 5 feet range when attacking. I'd go Mountain Dwarf and then work towards Sentinel and Polearm Master. Also personally I'd take at least 3 levels in Barbarian for Bear totem, preferably I'll just be dipping 3 Ranger for Guardian Soul.

Harrumphreys

2017-01-16, 05:05 PM

Afb, what page?

Page 278.

'Big monsters typically wield oversized weapons that deal extra dice of damage on a hit. Double the weapon dice if the creature is Large, triple the weapon dice if it's Huge, and quadruple the weapon dice if it's Gargantuan. For example, a Huge giant wielding an appropriately sized greataxe deals 3dl2 slashing damage (plus its Strength bonus), instead of the normal 1d12. A creature has disadvantage on attack rolls with a weapon that is sized for a larger attacker. You can rule that a weapon sized for an attacker two or more sizes larger is too big for the creature to use at all.'

Bugado25

2017-01-16, 05:06 PM

Afb, what page?

You will find it at page 278

eastmabl

2017-01-16, 05:15 PM

Sigreid

2017-01-16, 05:21 PM

Meh, not bad but uninspired.

Theodoxus

2017-01-16, 05:24 PM

Reading through the thread, if felt very schizophrenic, as the Rest on the Guardian was there for me from the first opening of the pdf... glad that seems to be finally put to bed.

Scout is interesting, though not to my playstyle. To the guy who asked about 'end of movement' perhaps there was another stealth correction? It reads when they end their turn within 5' - so, if the DM moves a dude next to you and attacks or whatever and says 'ok, next' or otherwise signals the end of that enemies turn, you can then take your reaction to disengage from the foe...

Regarding Guardian, as far as I can tell, there's no limit on how long you can stay in your tree form, nor how long the ability lasts in general. So, the aura feature and the max HP boost remains essentially forever? Sure, you can do the self heal once per rest - but you've basically got more HPs forever... Hill Dwarf ftw? You're as tanky as a barbarian and with the regenerating temp HP, even better than a Fiendlock who needs to kill something...

I'd actually consider playing one.

Grey Watcher

2017-01-16, 05:28 PM

"Oh no! It's a Dwarven Defender Primeval Guardian! Walk briskly!"

Seriously though, even with archery focus, you want more mobility so you can keep finding good places to shoot from as everybody else runs around trying to (among other things) avoid being where you can shoot them. Yes, the increased size and reach helps for melee types (as does the radius of difficult terrain, once it comes online eight levels after you started doing this), but without some means to force enemies to come to and/or stay where you want them, Primeval Guardian really does have exactly the same problem that 3.5's Dwarven Defender had: they're really good if you have a very specific fight ahead of you, wherein blocking a narrow chokepoint is key, but otherwise everyone's just going to spend the little bit of extra movement to move around you while you flail uselessly.

Even with only being a bonus action to transform, an enemy willing to spend their actions Disengaging (or who can Disengage as a bonus action) can just lead you in circles, shutting down off-hand attacks, Hunter's Mark and I-don't-know-what-else because you keep burning your bonus action to either turn into a tree or turn back to move. Or you just ignore your entire Conclave powers and go for standard Ranger tactics, and if you were going to do that, you might as well have gone with Hunter for some snazzy combat bonuses.

As for Scout, while I know they're trying to recreate the Scout from late 3.5, the more relaxed rules about interspersing movement and attacks mean that the thing the Scout was made to do is largely redundant. If they were going for "Rogue with a hint of Ranger" (much like Arcane Trickster is "Rogue with a hint of Wizard"), I think they should've focused on out-of-combat powers: super camouflage, tracking, foraging, talking to animals, etc. Basically, a wilderness counterpart to the Mastermind.

MeeposFire

2017-01-16, 05:32 PM

To me the scout does not feel like the 3e class all that much. Mobility is part and parcel of the rogue already and this one is extra mobile but it really just feels like a mobile outdoor rogue type of which there have been many iterations. To me the 3e scout was really defined by its relatively sub par attack style (though fun but really hampered by the action mechanics that 3e used). Without that it really just feels like a wilderness rogue though there is nothing really wrong with that.

Ninja-Radish

2017-01-16, 05:41 PM

I love the Primeval Guardian, especially with the update that clarifies their level 7 healing ability. I finally get to play Groot! It also reminds me of the 4E Warden, which was one of my favorite classes.

Horizon Walker is flavorful in its own way as well. Scout is very meh.

Drackolus

2017-01-16, 05:52 PM

Levistej

2017-01-16, 06:00 PM

I quite like the idea of playing a dwarven sentinel with a few levels of forge cleric. I would totally change the fluff into something like a dwarven juggernaut, order of the steel inquisition and humanoid battering ram. Also, you could propably forge your own large sized weapons.

Bonus points for playing a duergar, calling him Ironeyes and not trusting any written document that isn't carved into metal.

RedMage125

2017-01-16, 06:12 PM

Seeing a lot of hate for the Scout.

I kind of like it.

Survivalist is free proficiency AND Expertise in two skills with limited usage...except...you know, EXACTLY what the ability is called. Determining traits of animals and plants and being able to not only navigate, but forage in the wild. Still not overwhelmingly good.

Skirmisher is helpful for a ranged rogue avoiding enemies who want to melee him.

Superior Mobility just makes me want a Wood Elf Scout with the Mobility feat to be ridiculously fast.

Ambush Master is one of those YMMV abilities. I've DMed for groups who plan very well and would make great use of it. I have played in and DMed for groups that would be affected very little by it.

Sudden Strike, for those who are confused, DOES mean that you have to attack 2 targets. But being able to Sneak Attack 2 targets per turn is pretty awesome.

Oddly a tree bodied ranger was actually a thing back in 2e. YOu take the right kit and you would end up looking like this as your ranger.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sgWFcaDbx2c/U_XKb1pwY1I/AAAAAAAACQ4/l1CklsI3u5E/s1600/greenwoodRanger.jpg

Add a way to get your third arm again and it would be complete.

That was my first thought, too! I played in a 2e game where we had a Ranger with that kit in the party.

Tanarii

2017-01-16, 06:22 PM

As for the primeval guardian, it makes me think of the 4e warden class.It absolutely is the 4e Warden.

Which is kind of weird to me. I figured they'd already given that 'archetype', Green Knight, to the Ancients Paladin. Even though obviously the Ancients Paladin isn't really anything like the 4e Warden mechanically, it seemed pretty clearly designed to function in the same narrative space.

JumboWheat01

2017-01-16, 06:38 PM

What is striking me weird is how the Ranger is getting bonus spells that don't count against their spells known, yet that is the exact thing that has been said should be avoided with the Sorcerer.

I wonder if they'll 180 on that idea in the Sorcerer UA.

GlenSmash!

2017-01-16, 06:49 PM

Horizon Walker gets some nifty Teleports. Their ribbon is campaign specific, but that's not a big deal.

Primeval Guardian allows for a completely new way to play a Ranger. That's what subclasses should do. You get to be a Large Slow tree with groot like powers. I would rather see this on a Druid, but I know it was a Ranger kit before.

Scout can Sneak attack in the twice in The same round, but only against differnet targets and only at high level. It seems to favor movign around a lot even more than the other rogues would.

All in all it's pretty solid. Though I probably wouldn't play these myself.

brainface

2017-01-16, 06:52 PM

ruy343

2017-01-16, 06:57 PM

My only thought is: Why isn't the "Primeval Guardian" archetype a barbarian subclass instead of ranger? Ranger seems like an odd place to put that...

Vogonjeltz

2017-01-16, 07:16 PM

Page 278.

'Big monsters typically wield oversized weapons that deal extra dice of damage on a hit. Double the weapon dice if the creature is Large, triple the weapon dice if it's Huge, and quadruple the weapon dice if it's Gargantuan. For example, a Huge giant wielding an appropriately sized greataxe deals 3dl2 slashing damage (plus its Strength bonus), instead of the normal 1d12. A creature has disadvantage on attack rolls with a weapon that is sized for a larger attacker. You can rule that a weapon sized for an attacker two or more sizes larger is too big for the creature to use at all.'

In that case they'd still have to lug the thing around (impacting their carrying capacity, and couldn't even use it right without getting made bigger, I suppose I don't see the problem.

rbstr

2017-01-16, 07:19 PM

I feel like the Horizon walker is rarely a good pick unless you've got big time planar shenanigans going on and you want out-of-combat ability. Otherwise it's mostly worse than Hunter and deep stalker? But I really quite like the concept.
Bonus action 1d6 is pretty weak, even with the ignore resistance. There are already a few ways around resistance.
The warp-strike thing is neat and can land you an extra attack if you've got 3 targets. But only with 3 targets. Both that and the etherealness are giving me bigtime feeling of FFXV's Noct with both the warp-strike and warp-dodge. But with like half the coolness taken out.
Give the teleport attack bonus damage if you travel more than 5ft or something and up range to 15?

A ranger archetype I would have liked is a sort of "heavy ranger". Kinda want it to feel a bit more like a D&D Link, right? Sure, rapier + shield + bow gets most of the way there. But he also swings around a big-ass hammer or greatsword sometimes. Perhaps enable it via something a bit like the Kensai monk.

SharkForce

2017-01-16, 07:20 PM

"Oh no! It's a Dwarven Defender Primeval Guardian! Walk briskly!"

Seriously though, even with archery focus, you want more mobility so you can keep finding good places to shoot from as everybody else runs around trying to (among other things) avoid being where you can shoot them. Yes, the increased size and reach helps for melee types (as does the radius of difficult terrain, once it comes online eight levels after you started doing this), but without some means to force enemies to come to and/or stay where you want them, Primeval Guardian really does have exactly the same problem that 3.5's Dwarven Defender had: they're really good if you have a very specific fight ahead of you, wherein blocking a narrow chokepoint is key, but otherwise everyone's just going to spend the little bit of extra movement to move around you while you flail uselessly.

so get a horse. your speed is reduced, but nothing says you lose anything if you are moved further, just that your move speed is reduced. (in a particularly humorous scenario, you could deliberately allow someone to grapple you, at which point they would be able to drag you around as they please at half their own speed).

or pick up sharpshooter, at which point if they can do much of anything to you, you can counterattack just fine, and therefore you're trading your one action for however many enemy actions. sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

or do both.

SharkForce

2017-01-16, 07:26 PM

A ranger archetype I would have liked is a sort of "heavy ranger". Kinda want it to feel a bit more like a D&D Link, right? Sure, rapier + shield + bow gets most of the way there. But he also swings around a big-ass hammer or greatsword sometimes. Perhaps enable it via something a bit like the Kensai monk.

there is literally a ranger in this very article that becomes large, gains reach, and gains temp HP every single round (and later on actually heals). how is that not a "heavy ranger"?

GlenSmash!

2017-01-16, 07:30 PM

there is literally a ranger in this very article that becomes large, gains reach, and gains temp HP every single round (and later on actually heals). how is that not a "heavy ranger"?

Trees are pretty heavy, but I would love to see a Ranger that specializes in Two Handed Weapons. It's not hard to imagine that certain monsters/Favored enemies have tougher hides that require more leverage to cut/pierce/smash through. I was frankly baffled why rangers can't have the GWF style in the first place.

Ninja-Radish

2017-01-16, 07:30 PM

It absolutely is the 4e Warden.

Which is kind of weird to me. I figured they'd already given that 'archetype', Green Knight, to the Ancients Paladin. Even though obviously the Ancients Paladin isn't really anything like the 4e Warden mechanically, it seemed pretty clearly designed to function in the same narrative space.

Except the Ancients Paladin was just a paladin with some minimal "naturey stuff" tacked on as an afterthought. It had nothing to do with the old Warden class. The Primeval Guardian archetype completely transforms the Ranger class if you take it. It plays very differently than the Hunter or Beastmaster Ranger.

rbstr

2017-01-16, 07:37 PM

there is literally a ranger in this very article that becomes large, gains reach, and gains temp HP every single round (and later on actually heals). how is that not a "heavy ranger"?

Because that's literally nothing like what I had described? If you want to change my particular definition to mean something entirely different, more power too you I guess.

Tanarii

2017-01-16, 07:38 PM

Except the Ancients Paladin was just a paladin with some minimal "naturey stuff" tacked on as an afterthought. It had nothing to do with the old Warden class. The Primeval Guardian archetype completely transforms the Ranger class if you take it. It plays very differently than the Hunter or Beastmaster Ranger.
No I get you. Ancient Paladin is supposed to be a Fey Knight more than anything else, not a Druid-Knight. The 'nature' theme is an outgrowth of the Fey Knight aspect, as in Fey are very Nature-y.

The reason I felt like the Ancients Paladin was supposed to be the inheritor of the Warden class was kind of an indirect link, now that I look at it.

In Short:
Warden --> Wild Hunt-aspect Warrior (ie Fey) --> Fey Knight --> Ancients Paladin.

Edit: But the Primeval Guardian is very clearly just the 4e Warden reworked as a Ranger subclass.

Kileonhardt

2017-01-16, 07:42 PM

so get a horse.

You'd need something of huge size. Flavor wise your DM might let you buy a Giant Elk which would work. Has been something I've been debating between using a mount or just dashing into range and transforming for your first turn.

MrStabby

2017-01-16, 07:51 PM

I read this and liked it. I read it again and liked it even more. I am not without gripes, but they are mainly of the good kind. This is a nice improvement from that artificer stuff.

Horizon walker.
I like what they are trying to do. I really get the planar hunter type role - especially nice with the favoured enemy ability so you can pick celestials, fiends or whatever.

My issue is that it kind of feels a bit odd with the rest of the ranger spell list. The jarring juxtaposition of the natural and arcane doesn't work for me. If I were to play the class I might ask if I could swap out the basic ranger spell list for something else that felt a little more otherworldly - wizard, cleric, warlock could all work in their own way. I suppose I would have actually prefered this to have been split off into its own base class - I imagine there is enough material there to be able to produce a few archetypes.

So my complaint is that it is so awesome a concept that it was wasted on a subclass. Hardly damning.

Primeval Guardian
This is basically one of the characters I always wanted to play and one of the things I cited when asked why 5th was limited and what character concepts couldn't you easily build with available classes. This was something I wanted. It is nice to get that made but also it looks pretty good as well.

Primeval guardian does cry out for magic initiate: druid. Shillelagh + Pole Arm Mastery is good when you you have reach, lets you be a bit SAD. Thorn whip lets you pull enemies into your aura of thorny doom, with sentinel they will never escape.

Scout
Sure it doesn't have much because it's a rogue but I love it. Proficiency in nature and survival skills? Awesome flavour if nothing else. Skirmisher is fun - probably able to be used more often than the crits on assassinate so you should have something in every fight. You dont need to run away with this ability either. Walk up to the front line. An enemy ends their movement within 5ft - possibly even moving zero ft. You then walk past 12 attacks of otherwise opportunity to get to the wizards at the back.

I think mobility is underrated in 5th edition. I find it awesome. I think that the scout loses out somewhat unless they can get a big bonus to jumping or a fly speed. By 9th level more fights are not just taking place on a simple plane. 9th level is still quite high for a modest boost.

Ambush master is a bit meh. A fair encounter you stomp over. An unfair encounter that is still a challenge feels like it was artificially increased to account for your ability. You get to be awesome once every very few encounters and by so much that the encounters are probably pretty short. Your awesomeness is passive. Not a fan of this ability from a fun perspective.

Sudden strike is an awesome capstone. It is not only potentially very good but also fun. Sure its 17th level so probably not an issue.

All in all I like this one. I think it is a shame they joined the rogue and ranger together. I thought the rogue had the most scope for being fleshed out more, in fact of all the classes. Quite a lot I wouldn't mind playing in this one.

Kileonhardt

2017-01-16, 08:00 PM

Primeval guardian does cry out for magic initiate: druid. Shillelagh + Pole Arm Mastery is good when you you have reach, lets you be a bit SAD. Thorn whip lets you pull enemies into your aura of thorny doom, with sentinel they will never escape.

I've been trying to figure out if it's better to blow the feat on magic initiate or just take a dip into Druid myself. You put Ranger behind by a level which isn't too huge, save the ASI for an actual ASI or Sentinel, get a full caster level of spell slots, and a little more Druid stuff.

MrStabby

2017-01-16, 08:20 PM

I've been trying to figure out if it's better to blow the feat on magic initiate or just take a dip into Druid myself. You put Ranger behind by a level which isn't too huge, save the ASI for an actual ASI or Sentinel, get a full caster level of spell slots, and a little more Druid stuff.

I am not sure. A year ago I would have said to take druid. Now with the revised ranger there are more tempting things at every level and it feels like you are missing more to be a level behind. More good spells on this archetype, good core abilities on the main ranger. I would really enjoy the level 11 archetype ability. It is very easy to push the druid level that bit later for me, until it is easier to take the feat. Also, if you are SAD due to not needing dex as an attack stat you can burn more ASIs on feats without worry. If you multiclass you need dex 13.

Kileonhardt

2017-01-16, 08:28 PM

I am not sure. A year ago I would have said to take druid. Now with the revised ranger there are more tempting things at every level and it feels like you are missing more to be a level behind. More good spells on this archetype, good core abilities on the main ranger. I would really enjoy the level 11 archetype ability. It is very easy to push the druid level that bit later for me, until it is easier to take the feat. Also, if you are SAD due to not needing dex as an attack stat you can burn more ASIs on feats without worry. If you multiclass you need dex 13.

Yeah the 30ft difficult terrain is pretty amazing at 11 and heal aoe at 15 is also hard to want to push back. I guess like always Variant Human will come out on top and let you grab PAM and MI feats and get your WIS to 18 by 8.

Ninja-Radish

2017-01-16, 08:42 PM

No I get you. Ancient Paladin is supposed to be a Fey Knight more than anything else, not a Druid-Knight. The 'nature' theme is an outgrowth of the Fey Knight aspect, as in Fey are very Nature-y.

The reason I felt like the Ancients Paladin was supposed to be the inheritor of the Warden class was kind of an indirect link, now that I look at it.

In Short:
Warden --> Wild Hunt-aspect Warrior (ie Fey) --> Fey Knight --> Ancients Paladin.

Edit: But the Primeval Guardian is very clearly just the 4e Warden reworked as a Ranger subclass.

Ah, understood.

xyianth

2017-01-16, 08:43 PM

Primeval Guardian would work extremely well as a grappler based build. Grab 1 level of rogue for Athletics expertise and Grab 3 levels of bear totem barbarian for reckless attack + rage w/resistance. Snag Thorn Whip from Magic Initiate to help pull new targets into range. Seems like a fun build.

Ninja-Radish

2017-01-16, 08:44 PM

TurboGhast

2017-01-16, 09:57 PM

http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2017_01_UA_RangerRogue_0117JCMM.pdf

I opened the above link in my standard browser (Chrome) where I had previously opened it. It did not have a short/long restriction.

I opened the link in an Incognito window, and it opened the version with the short/long restriction.

Strange.

Try clearing your cache, the old version could be showing because your browser's loading from the cache instead of the new page.

You'd need something of huge size. Flavor wise your DM might let you buy a Giant Elk which would work. Has been something I've been debating between using a mount or just dashing into range and transforming for your first turn.

Also keep in mind that a primal guardian can transform back to normal, move their full speed, and on their next turn transform into guardian form. Moving could often be worth temporarily breaking the transformation.

2D8HP

2017-01-16, 10:00 PM

I didn't really read the Ranger archetypes (magic blah, blah, blah) but the Rogue "Scout" looks awesome!
I may multi-class a UA Fighter "Scout" with a UA Rogue "Scout"!

Foxhound438

2017-01-16, 10:03 PM

horizon walker seems like as hard a side grade as there ever was to a pure hunter ranger, given specific picks for abilities, with the exception of distant strike, which feels to me like it's almost strictly better than volley shot. Only in cases where there's more than 3 things clustered together is volley going to be better, but at the same time you can shoot any 3 targets on the field. In any case, it does functionally make them probably the best "kiting" fighter around, with that free movement.

Guardian soul, while it does tie you down pretty hard, does give you some increased tankiness with the THP gain, and it doesn't prevent you from using ranged attacks. It seems odd to me that they don't give you heavy armor so you can be a more dedicated tank with it, but I guess a Vuman taking heavily armored wouldn't be the worst. It also gives you free damage on a hit once per turn, being only one die size smaller than colossus slayer and having no restriction on it. Seems good, especially when that's on top of the tree form. Ancient fortitude is more tankiness, in the form of a free 2*level heal with the already okay tree form. Seems fine to me. Rooted defence can be good for forcing things to stick near you, but otherwise it's not spectacular. Finally, the guardian aura is probably one of the stronger healing abilities in the game... In a party of 4, having three allies, within 4 rounds you do more healing than a life cleric channel, and it has no limit on use or healing done besides "can't heal something with 1/2 or more of its hit points". You know what that means, right? your allies at 0 still benefit from it, forever. probably needs a balancing pass, if you ask me.

Scout seems okay, 2 free expertise skills and added mobility are pretty much gas for rogues. Ambush master makes surprise extra good with the paladins and clerics also getting outspeeds on enemies on round 2+. Sudden strike seems very powerful for clearing mooks, but obviously in a situation in which you need to focus one thing down it does you no good.

Coffee_Dragon

2017-01-16, 10:11 PM

Scout's initial ability needs a clause to handle having already selected those skills.

There's a general rule (buried in the Backgrounds section of the PHB) saying that if you'd get a proficiency from two different sources, you get a free pick of the same type instead.

Rogue lovers should be a little miffed if there aren't more subs lined up. Ranger got two recently and now gets two more, while rogue gets one?

MasterMercury

2017-01-16, 10:40 PM

Personally, I would trade the temp HP for the Primeval Guardian to a higher AC. Give them wooden skin, AC 17 if not higher.
It's a great subclass, I would definitely play this if given the chance.

EvilAnagram

2017-01-16, 10:48 PM

The AC for Primal Guardians isn't bad. Any ranger is only one feat away from Medium Armor Master or Heavily Armored, and both of those provide 18 AC options.

Naanomi

2017-01-16, 10:56 PM

Hill Dwarf Nature Cleric/Guardian Ranger... rock the Shillelagh and full plate?

WickerNipple

2017-01-16, 11:13 PM

Hill Dwarf Nature Cleric/Guardian Ranger... rock the Shillelagh and full plate?

I was just thinking of this very character.

Lonely Tylenol

2017-01-16, 11:27 PM

Variant Human (Skilled)
Rogue (Scout) 3/Cleric (Knowledge 1)/Bard (Lore) 3

Level 7: profiency in all skills + thief tools; 8 with expertise... from there you could get more rogue + bard for 4 more expertise; or just 2 more and Reliable Talent

I have literally already asked my DM if I could change my character concept (which was this exact character, but without UA Scout Rogue, so taking Half-Elf, Bard out to 4 for Skilled, and dipping Ranger 1 for Survival instead). Scout HYPE!

VoxRationis

2017-01-16, 11:28 PM

"Oh no! It's a Dwarven Defender Primeval Guardian! Walk briskly!"

Seriously though, even with archery focus, you want more mobility so you can keep finding good places to shoot from as everybody else runs around trying to (among other things) avoid being where you can shoot them. Yes, the increased size and reach helps for melee types (as does the radius of difficult terrain, once it comes online eight levels after you started doing this), but without some means to force enemies to come to and/or stay where you want them, Primeval Guardian really does have exactly the same problem that 3.5's Dwarven Defender had: they're really good if you have a very specific fight ahead of you, wherein blocking a narrow chokepoint is key, but otherwise everyone's just going to spend the little bit of extra movement to move around you while you flail uselessly.

Even with only being a bonus action to transform, an enemy willing to spend their actions Disengaging (or who can Disengage as a bonus action) can just lead you in circles, shutting down off-hand attacks, Hunter's Mark and I-don't-know-what-else because you keep burning your bonus action to either turn into a tree or turn back to move. Or you just ignore your entire Conclave powers and go for standard Ranger tactics, and if you were going to do that, you might as well have gone with Hunter for some snazzy combat bonuses.

I don't know about you, but I've had a lot of fights where the front-line combatants didn't really move a lot. Plus, having a 10-foot tall character with a 10-foot reach is a good disincentive for people to rush for the mage.

SharkForce

2017-01-17, 12:03 AM

There's a general rule (buried in the Backgrounds section of the PHB) saying that if you'd get a proficiency from two different sources, you get a free pick of the same type instead.

Rogue lovers should be a little miffed if there aren't more subs lined up. Ranger got two recently and now gets two more, while rogue gets one?

rogue lovers did get a few official rogue archetypes already. they're not in wizard or cleric territory by any means, but there's a fair number of rogue archetypes already, and they tend to be fairly flexible already. although that certainly doesn't seem to have stopped WotC from putting out a crudload of fighter archetypes in UA.

Maxilian

2017-01-17, 12:24 AM

so get a horse. your speed is reduced, but nothing says you lose anything if you are moved further, just that your move speed is reduced. (in a particularly humorous scenario, you could deliberately allow someone to grapple you, at which point they would be able to drag you around as they please at half their own speed).

or pick up sharpshooter, at which point if they can do much of anything to you, you can counterattack just fine, and therefore you're trading your one action for however many enemy actions. sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

or do both.

You're large, so need something bigger to ride

Dimers

2017-01-17, 01:18 AM

Firbolg (or goliath) totem-barbarian 6, cleric 3, artificer wizard 2, guardian ranger 3:

Race gives x2 encumbrance
Bear totem gives x2 encumbrance
Cleric has enhance attribute: Strength for x2 encumbrance
Guardian ranger can grow to actual Large size
Artificer can turn level-1 spells into potions of growth which, if you drink one after assuming your guardian form, stacks the size increase up to Huge. And unlike the enlarge/reduce spell, doesn't require concentration and lasts for 1d4 hours.

32x carry, lift, pull, drag, push. That's what came to mind when I saw the new UA.

Hello, my name is Dimers, and I optimize for the wrong things. :smallbiggrin:

MeeposFire

2017-01-17, 01:21 AM

I wish the cout got its bonus action attack earlier so I could get what I want while taking a feat for a shield

xyianth

2017-01-17, 01:35 AM

(snip)...
Hello, my name is Dimers, and I optimize for the wrong things. :smallbiggrin:

Your thoughts intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. :smallwink:

SharkForce

2017-01-17, 01:52 AM

You're large, so need something bigger to ride

then find something bigger to ride. or find some other way to move around.

or, as noted, just pick up the sharpshooter feat, and the only way they don't get shot is by staying in total cover.

djreynolds

2017-01-17, 03:41 AM

Well the UA is getting better, both the rogue scout and fighter scout are better mundane rangers. Both of these could be very cool to have to a low magic setting

I like the two new ranger archetypes, but I still think OoA paladin feels like a better guardian. But still I like them.

Zalabim

2017-01-17, 05:07 AM

I honestly expected a scout rogue subpath eventually, but I thought they'd have the ability to "also sneak attack without advantage as long as you moved X feet this turn." I see this whole UA as types of rangers, so we may still see more roguish archetypes next week.

Sudden strike seems very powerful for clearing mooks, but obviously in a situation in which you need to focus one thing down it does you no good.
It still lets you make two attacks with your most powerful weapon instead of dual wielding. It's less powerful against one target, but it still does you some good.

Little boy

2017-01-17, 05:50 AM

I love the scout. The rogue didn't have any small town/village options before this. You may not be able to steal/murder/study magic because everyone knows everyone and there are not many resources to take advantage of. This new class fills a very specific niche very well and I like it. Has tons of room for flavor

Little boy

2017-01-17, 10:04 AM

You're large, so need something bigger to ride

Giant elk is classified as huge.

Maxilian

2017-01-17, 10:20 AM

I like the idea of 8 lvl Fighter EK and Ranger Primeval Guardian 4 with Human Variant to get MI and take Shillelagh and Thorn Whip, so i can use the lvl 7 ability to pull my enemy with Thorn Whip and beat the **** out of it (if they are on range, just use Booming Blade and a normal attack)

Regitnui

2017-01-17, 10:22 AM

Giant elk is classified as huge.

So a giant elk carrying a tree?

georgie_leech

2017-01-17, 10:42 AM

What jumps out at me is that you become Large, period. Finally, a way to make Gnome Barbarians work. :smallamused:

Oramac

2017-01-17, 11:06 AM

Maxilian

2017-01-17, 11:08 AM

What jumps out at me is that you become Large, period. Finally, a way to make Gnome Barbarians work. :smallamused:

I was thinking the same, its a nice way to work around the lack of heavy weapons for small races in general

Giant2005

2017-01-17, 12:31 PM

The AC for Primal Guardians isn't bad. Any ranger is only one feat away from Medium Armor Master or Heavily Armored, and both of those provide 18 AC options.

The problem is you can't really wear armor.
Your armor isn't going to survive hulking out (going from a medium or small creature, to a large one), and you can't really get away with staying in large mode all of the time (so you can just wear large armor instead) because the movement speed restriction is too annoying for permanent use.

Ruslan

2017-01-17, 12:35 PM

georgie_leech

2017-01-17, 12:39 PM

Dip a level of Barbarian. Stop swords with your bare chest.

"Dip" 6 levels of Monk. MAtrix Dodge out of the way and teleport through shadows to avoid obnoxious Movement limitations.

rlc

2017-01-17, 12:39 PM

You could also play an eladrin for misty step, but I guess you might want that more than once

Giant2005

2017-01-17, 12:40 PM

Dip a level of Barbarian. Stop swords with your bare chest.

Yeah multiclassing or being a Lizardman would solve the issue. But obviously it would be nice to not have to take those paths (especially considering you already pretty much need to take 3 or more levels in another class to pick up Misty Step).
You could sort out both your AC and movement issues with 3 levels of Sorc though.

EvilAnagram

2017-01-17, 12:51 PM

The problem is you can't really wear armor.
Your armor isn't going to survive hulking out (going from a medium or small creature, to a large one), and you can't really get away with staying in large mode all of the time (so you can just wear large armor instead) because the movement speed restriction is too annoying for permanent use.

I'm assuming that, as with Enlarge/Reduce, your equipment comes with you. Still, that's something worth clarifying.

Maxilian

2017-01-17, 01:36 PM

HidesHisEyes

2017-01-17, 02:29 PM

suplee215

2017-01-17, 02:29 PM

The problem is you can't really wear armor.
Your armor isn't going to survive hulking out (going from a medium or small creature, to a large one), and you can't really get away with staying in large mode all of the time (so you can just wear large armor instead) because the movement speed restriction is too annoying for permanent use.
How unreasonable would it be to add the armor growing and staying with you? I don't see an AC 17 or 18 primal guardian being OP. While Wildshape doesn't increase size of the armor, it does allow it to either merge or be worn by the form and I can see something with that taking.

suplee215

2017-01-17, 02:35 PM

Is anyone else worried about Scout stepping on Ranger's toes, skills-wise? Expertise in Nature and Survival seems like a co-opting of two classic ranger skills that the ranger herself can't get expertise in, considering the scout is (to put it unkindly) a rogue who wants to be a ranger.

While I only been playing for a year, I've found that rogues usually outclass Ranger at any skill-monkeying they do due to expertise. If they want to step on a ranger's toes they already can. Also the Scout seems to be for the player who wants an unmagical ranger. I also rarely see nature rolls but the lack of intelligence on a ranger make them unlikely to do it.

Little boy

2017-01-17, 03:37 PM

Maxilian

2017-01-17, 04:00 PM

I have never cared for ranger skills. They get a slew of stuff to make up for not having skills and survival and nature are some of the weaker skills honestly.

That depends a lot on the campaign (In the Underdark campaign, walking around without much direction and food is a big part of it, so those 2 skills are really important)

TentacleSurpris

2017-01-17, 04:32 PM

Much is said about the Guardian's inability to move more than 5 feet, but consider the grid.

In a fight in an open wilderness, the Guardian is hosed. You're not necessarily dead but you aren't going to have a lot of fun spending your turns dashing 10 feet. In the actual woods, an enemy will fire from behind cover and keep moving out of the Ranger's reach.

In a dungeon or indoor environment, they excel, and not just in corridors. A normal creature covers 1 grid space and threatens 8. A Large creature with 10' of reach covers a total grid area of 4 spaces and threatens 24 spaces! That's huge! That's 8x8 squares on the map, or 40 feet by 40 feet. I like to compare UA classes to published WOTC modules, and there aren't many maps in published modules with bigger rooms than 40x40. By stepping only 5 feet, you can keep an even larger area covered. Indoors, this tree is king. He also provides some cover for allies behind him.

The ironic thing is that the outdoorsy tree ranger is more effective indoors than outdoors, which feels like a design flaw. Maybe the movement speed should be faster when moving over soil or "natural" outdoor terrain? I think that would solve the problems in a flavourful way, because soil is the natural home of a tree.

SharkForce

2017-01-17, 04:44 PM

Much is said about the Guardian's inability to move more than 5 feet, but consider the grid.

In a fight in an open wilderness, the Guardian is hosed. You're not necessarily dead but you aren't going to have a lot of fun spending your turns dashing 10 feet. In the actual woods, an enemy will fire from behind cover and keep moving out of the Ranger's reach.

or, alternately, the guardian has a (possibly giant) longbow and the sharpshooter feat. partial cover is meaningless, and if you're out of his range you're also out of your own range. except he's getting temp HP every single round, and at later levels even healing potentially, and you aren't. you wanna start a dragged-out battle of attrition with the guy who makes the champion (previously best in existence at the battle of attrition) look like a chump, well, you can go ahead and try that, but i for one wouldn't expect great results.

CursedRhubarb

2017-01-17, 05:19 PM

Keeping a Large Longbow for outdoors would be just nasty with the Guardian. Especially when considering the core Ranger abilities and how they'd work with a 2d8 weapon. As a bonus, it would only weigh 4lbs, it'd just be long but could be used as a walking stick/quarterstaff when unstrung.

Ugganaut

2017-01-17, 05:36 PM

Is anyone else worried about Scout stepping on Ranger's toes, skills-wise? Expertise in Nature and Survival seems like a co-opting of two classic ranger skills that the ranger herself can't get expertise in, considering the scout is (to put it unkindly) a rogue who wants to be a ranger.

Not worried at all. I don't see the issue with other classes being good at wilderness stuff, no reason they should if they want to. Two skills is hardly stepping on their toes anyway. Rogue Scout doesn't get Natural Explorer, which while a ribbon feature, is a very nice ribbon. Our party loves the "travel through difficult terrain easier", and the Ranger loves his "alert to danger while doing other stuff". Plus the initiative/difficult terrain stuff in combat. With the Outlander background, the Ranger finds double the food without a check required usually, which has come up a few times when escorting rescued slaves or caravans.

tieren

2017-01-17, 05:38 PM

Philistine

2017-01-17, 05:50 PM

A normal creature covers 1 grid space and threatens 8. A Large creature with 10' of reach covers a total grid area of 4 spaces and threatens 24 spaces! That's huge! That's 8x8 squares on the map, or 40 feet by 40 feet.

There appear to be some issues with your math here. Unless there's something here that I'm missing by a lot, a Large creature with a 10' reach should threaten a 6X6 area (across the middle, that's 2 sq of reach + 2 sq occupied by the creature + another 2 sq of reach on the other side, for a total of 6 sq). That gives a total of 36 squares either covered or threatened by the creature.

Note that 4+24=28, which 1) is not a square (well, it's a square of 2*sqrt7, but you know what I mean) - and 2) is certainly not an 8X8 square, which would require the Large creature to cover/threaten 64 total squares!

tieren

2017-01-17, 06:04 PM

There appear to be some issues with your math here. Unless there's something here that I'm missing by a lot, a Large creature with a 10' reach should threaten a 6X6 area (across the middle, that's 2 sq of reach + 2 sq occupied by the creature + another 2 sq of reach on the other side, for a total of 6 sq). That gives a total of 36 squares either covered or threatened by the creature.

Note that 4+24=28, which 1) is not a square (well, it's a square of 2*sqrt7, but you know what I mean) - and 2) is certainly not an 8X8 square, which would require the Large creature to cover/threaten 64 total squares!

With no reach at all you can attack the first squares surrounding you. One would presume with 5 foot of reach you could attack that second row of squares you describe, and with 10 foot reach (form extra reach plus reach weapon) you should be able to hit enemies in that third row of squares.

Philistine

2017-01-17, 06:36 PM

With no reach at all you can attack the first squares surrounding you. One would presume with 5 foot of reach you could attack that second row of squares you describe, and with 10 foot reach (form extra reach plus reach weapon) you should be able to hit enemies in that third row of squares.

I don't think I've seen reach described that way before - usually "10' Reach" means you can reach things that are 10' away, and "5' Reach" is never, or at least very seldom, referred to what Medium and Small creatures get to show that they can hit things in adjacent squares, as opposed to smaller creatures which can only hit things in their own square. And in any case, here's what the UA ability does:

Guardian Soul

Starting at 3rd level, you gain the ability to temporarily grow and take on the appearance of a treelike person, covered with leaves and bark. As a bonus action, you assume this guardian form, which lasts until you end it as a bonus action or until you are incapacitated.

You undergo the following changes while in your guardian form:
• Your size becomes Large, unless you were larger.
• Any speed you have becomes 5 feet, unless the speed was lower.
• Your reach increases by 5 feet.
• You gain a number of temporary hit points at the start of each of your turns. The number equals half your ranger level. When the form ends, you lose any temporary hit points you have from it.
Starting from a Medium creature, then, normally that gives you... 10' Reach, i.e. the ability to reach things 10' away. But note that even if "10' Reach" lets you reach things 15' away, that still leaves the very odd "28 total squares equals an 8X8 area" statement.

Kileonhardt

2017-01-17, 06:37 PM

I can't imagine why they didn't make awaken a guardian domain spell. How are we supposed to get the talking raccoon companion?

Seriously though I love that subclass. Wondering what work around there are for the movement speed. Maybe longstrider on self and an infused haste from your artifice friend.

I don't believe there is a workaround to the movement speed besides moving into combat first and then transforming. Based on the wording "Any speed you have is reduced to 5 feet," you're just going to be at 5 feet all the time.

tieren

2017-01-17, 07:00 PM

I don't think I've seen reach described that way before - usually "10' Reach" means you can reach things that are 10' away, and "5' Reach" is never, or at least very seldom, referred to what Medium and Small creatures get to show that they can hit things in adjacent squares, as opposed to smaller creatures which can only hit things in their own square. And in any case, here's what the UA ability does:

Starting from a Medium creature, then, normally that gives you... 10' Reach, i.e. the ability to reach things 10' away. But note that even if "10' Reach" lets you reach things 15' away, that still leaves the very odd "28 total squares equals an 8X8 area" statement.

Ok, I looked it up, p195 phb says most creatures have a 5 foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them.

The reach weapon property on p147 says it adds 5 feet to your reach (presumably making it 10 feet).

This new class feature, as you've quoted adds 5 feet to your reach. Thus if you used a reach weapon your total reach would be 15 feet.

Kileonhardt

2017-01-17, 07:02 PM

tieren

2017-01-17, 07:02 PM

I don't believe there is a workaround to the movement speed besides moving into combat first and then transforming. Based on the wording "Any speed you have is reduced to 5 feet," you're just going to be at 5 feet all the time.

So what effect if longstrider is cast on you while in tree form?

I believe the form resets your base speed to 5 when activated, so racial and class features wouldn't persist, but once reset to 5 new affects could be applied, like haste or long strider, maybe even the swift foot alchemy thing from artificer.

tieren

2017-01-17, 07:03 PM

From checking ranges on Roll20 with a 15 foot total reach you threaten 56 squares. Combine that with the 168 squares of difficult terrain at level 11 and man is the Guardian a giant radius of control.

Agreed, that's what we've been saying

Also, makes the hide in plain sight ua ranger feature kind of interesting. You could literally stand still in the middle of a meadow and set and ambush as a large tree.

Kileonhardt

2017-01-17, 07:04 PM

So what effect if longstrider is cast on you while in tree form?

I believe the form resets your base speed to 5 when activated, so racial and class features wouldn't persist, but once reset to 5 new affects could be applied, like haste or long strider, maybe even the swift foot alchemy thing from artificer.

Mearls actually answered his personal thought on it earlier today. https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/821474899847852032

Agreed, that's what we've been saying

Also, makes the hide in plain sight ua ranger feature kind of interesting. You could literally stand still in the middle of a meadow and set and ambush as a large tree.

I know, I was just fixing the numbers that were mentioned because they were a little off.

tieren

2017-01-17, 07:08 PM

Mearls actually answered his personal thought on it earlier today. https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/821474899847852032

I know, I was just fixing the numbers that were mentioned because they were a little off.

Looks like a ruling not a rule. I liked a suggestion earlier in the thread of MC into shadow monk and teleport all over the place.

Kileonhardt

2017-01-17, 07:10 PM

Looks like a ruling not a rule. I liked a suggestion earlier in the thread of MC into shadow monk and teleport all over the place.

I had a sort of similar thought of multiclassing monk for the extra speed to get into range + Kensei to be able to use Glaive/Halberd as dex based. It's hard to want to put off Ranger 11 though.

And yeah it's DM discretion really on if you can increase the speed or not until Crawford specifies if you get locked into 5 speed. If not then flying tree men are the way to go.

tieren

2017-01-17, 07:25 PM

Also considering dip in storm sorcerer for the 10 foot fly on casting feature. Could pick up lightning lure to bring in targets too, dip to level 3 and get enlarge/reduce to become huge would be fun too.

Edit
of course there is always guardian 11/druid 9 to get awaken for the rocket raccoon pet.

georgie_leech

2017-01-17, 08:11 PM

I don't think I've seen reach described that way before - usually "10' Reach" means you can reach things that are 10' away, and "5' Reach" is never, or at least very seldom, referred to what Medium and Small creatures get to show that they can hit things in adjacent squares, as opposed to smaller creatures which can only hit things in their own square. And in any case, here's what the UA ability does:

Starting from a Medium creature, then, normally that gives you... 10' Reach, i.e. the ability to reach things 10' away. But note that even if "10' Reach" lets you reach things 15' away, that still leaves the very odd "28 total squares equals an 8X8 area" statement.

You only get OA's when creatures leave your reach, which means you threaten the 28 squares around the edge of the 8x8 square of areas you can attack. Much like how a regular pole arm wielding Fighter threatens the outer 16 squares of a 5x5 area, or a non-reach weapon user threatens 8 squares out of a potential 3x3 of places to attack.

Philistine

2017-01-17, 08:22 PM

MeeposFire

2017-01-17, 08:25 PM

I honestly expected a scout rogue subpath eventually, but I thought they'd have the ability to "also sneak attack without advantage as long as you moved X feet this turn." I see this whole UA as types of rangers, so we may still see more roguish archetypes next week.

It still lets you make two attacks with your most powerful weapon instead of dual wielding. It's less powerful against one target, but it still does you some good.

Its also a way to get multiple attacks on a rogue while wielding a shield (for those who went for moderately armored feat) and a way to get multiple attacks out of a ranged weapon that is not a hand crossbow. That is nice though if I wanted to build around that feature I really wish it was earlier in the progression.

ApplePen

2017-01-17, 08:39 PM

I like the Horizon Walker. The Primeval Guardian is a weird thing. It'll be at half power most of the time, and an infinite source of healing during short rests. I also see it working very well with Mastermind rogues.

The text where you get the bonus damage on weapon attacks means that trees using longbows are a thing now. The increase to reach means with a quick fighter dip you could end up Sentinel/GWF GWM and become a battlefield. The rough terrain thing is funny too, but this is going to annoy a lot of DMs.

Scout rogue isn't *useless*, it's just not as good as thief or assassin. The "reaction to move away" is the only really stand-out thing about the class.

georgie_leech

2017-01-17, 08:46 PM

As a Large creature with 10' of Reach, that's a 6X6 area. If you started with a polearm (which the post I originally quoted did not specify), then you'd be a Large creature with a 15' Reach (which the post I originally quoted did not claim).

I read the post as a Large creature with a weapon with 10' Reach. Though now that you mention it the original post also says 24 squares, so who knows.

Zippdementia

2017-01-17, 08:57 PM

I think people are writing off Guardian Form because of the 5 foot speed restriction, but if you look at it... there's no limit on the amount of times you can use this a day. So, wade into combat and bonus action into tree-man. Then reaction opportunity attack your least favorite opponent with your new ten foot reach. Anyone who doesn't flee, beat to death next turn and don't worry too much about getting hit because now you are a damage soaker. Or, if everyone flees, bonus action back to ranger and position yourself for next turn, possibly using dodge or even hide to get into the best position for next turn's attack.

Not my favorite new option, because it feels a little odd in terms of theme, but the 5 foot speed isn't much of a barrier to kicking ass with it.

Kileonhardt

2017-01-17, 09:01 PM

GlenSmash!

2017-01-17, 09:01 PM

Kileonhardt

2017-01-17, 09:10 PM

I see Guardian as the Party enabling form. It gives a place for your companions to come back for some free healing, and if something wants to follow them they have to wade through difficult terrain and get whomped by the Ranger Willow.

Mostly this. I see it as I'm going to sit there as a tree providing cover for my caster and rogue while also stopping any melee threats from getting near them.

tieren

2017-01-17, 09:23 PM

Mostly this. I see it as I'm going to sit there as a tree providing cover for my caster and rogue while also stopping any melee threats from getting near them.

This is a good strategy, the party healing comes on too late to be the theme.

Kileonhardt

2017-01-17, 09:26 PM

This is a good strategy, the party healing comes on too late to be the theme.

Yeah and you have conjure animals to make up for not always being in range to attack yourself.

Zippdementia

2017-01-17, 10:08 PM

I don't think anyone is really writing it off. A lot of us are trying to optimize builds with it, some with and some without Sentinel and Polearm Master.

Though early on, posts here were more critical of that speed thing, I meant in general, not necessarily on these forums.

tieren

2017-01-17, 10:39 PM

Finback

2017-01-17, 10:46 PM

So a giant elk carrying a tree?

One could argue that the antlers of Megaloceras count as a tree!

Kileonhardt

2017-01-17, 11:25 PM

I am really wondering if that alchemy potion that gives 20 feet more movement speed would work.

5 to 6 levels of artificer could come in real handy.

Otherwise thinking on giving up the heal aura to pick up shadow monk 6/storm sorcerer 3/guardian ranger 11

I'm actually thinking Kensei monk 6 / Warlock 3 / Guardian Ranger 11 for mine. Mage armor, Dark Vision, and 2/sr Misty Step from lock + Dex based Glaive and Deflect Missiles from Monk.

rlc

2017-01-18, 01:46 PM

Tanarii

2017-01-18, 02:58 PM

What really jumps out at me here is that this seems to be 100% a Ranger sub-class release. The Scout is just a 'Ranger' subclass for Rogues.

So yeah, I do think Scout steps on Ranger toes. Intentionally so. It's for all those players that keep whining about spell-less Ranger, and how they might as well just make them from Rogues with the Outlander background. Well ... here ya go. It's their official response to that. Your spell-less Ranger is a Rogue with the Scout archetype. (Or from previous UA, a Fighter with the Scout archetype.) :smallyuk:

Maxilian

2017-01-18, 03:11 PM

The text where you get the bonus damage on weapon attacks means that trees using longbows are a thing now. The increase to reach means with a quick fighter dip you could end up Sentinel/GWF GWM and become a battlefield. The rough terrain thing is funny too, but this is going to annoy a lot of DMs.

The real question is... what will those Longbows be made of? wood? wouldn't it be as disgusting for them as it would be for us a Longbow made out of meat? :smallconfused: :P

JumboWheat01

2017-01-18, 03:19 PM

The real question is... what will those Longbows be made of? wood? wouldn't it be as disgusting for them as it would be for us a Longbow made out of meat? :smallconfused: :P

Bosmer of the Elder Scrolls series have a pact that says not to touch the wood of their forest, so they make their bows out of bone and/or chitin. So I imagine something bows would be made of something like that.

SharkForce

2017-01-18, 03:21 PM

The real question is... what will those Longbows be made of? wood? wouldn't it be as disgusting for them as it would be for us a Longbow made out of meat? :smallconfused: :P

humans have used bone for a number of tools and even decoration for quite a long time. it really isn't that weird. even if the guardian *was* an actual tree, rather than a person who can assume a form that is tree-like in some ways.

CursedRhubarb

2017-01-18, 03:25 PM

The real question is... what will those Longbows be made of? wood? wouldn't it be as disgusting for them as it would be for us a Longbow made out of meat? :smallconfused: :P

Turn into a tree and snap off one of your branches, string it with the guts of your slain enemies and lay into the rest as you use their fallen comrade to rain death on them.:smallbiggrin:

tieren

2017-01-18, 03:59 PM

Turn into a tree and snap off one of your branches, string it with the guts of your slain enemies and lay into the rest as you use their fallen comrade to rain death on them.:smallbiggrin:

I was kind of picturing a willow tree man who can shoot arrows by knocking them against his own dreads.

Harrumphreys

2017-01-19, 05:33 PM

Levistej

2017-01-20, 08:23 AM

MinotaurWarrior

2017-01-20, 09:05 AM

Due to there being no clarification on your equipment changing size as you shift forms, is the guardian ranger really forced to basically walk around without any armor except a par of unbreakable purple shorts?

Tree barding :P

Actually, this kinda exists IRL up to maybe leather / hide. My neighbor wraps up his delicate trees when bad weather is coming, to prevent the branches from snapping off.

Maxilian

2017-01-20, 10:02 AM

Due to there being no clarification on your equipment changing size as you shift forms, is the guardian ranger really forced to basically walk around without any armor except a par of unbreakable purple shorts?

Well... Magic Armor change size with the wielder, now the detail is getting said armor

Ninja-Radish

2017-01-20, 10:06 AM

Due to there being no clarification on your equipment changing size as you shift forms, is the guardian ranger really forced to basically walk around without any armor except a par of unbreakable purple shorts?

The Enlarge spell has your equipment change size with you, so should the Guardian form.

Levistej

2017-01-20, 10:46 AM

Yeah, well, the enlarge spell explicitly says so. So I guess magic armor would be a must.

Regitnui

2017-01-20, 11:52 AM

Yeah, well, the enlarge spell explicitly says so. So I guess magic armor would be a must.

I can certainly picture something like Darkleaf armour, which is made from plant life, specifically called out by fluff for this ability.

Ninja-Radish

2017-01-20, 07:57 PM

Yeah, well, the enlarge spell explicitly says so. So I guess magic armor would be a must.

That would be ridiculous though, the character would be an absolute liability in combat if that were the case. I would never play with a DM who interpreted the rules that way.

Sigreid

2017-01-21, 12:22 AM

Yeah, well, the enlarge spell explicitly says so. So I guess magic armor would be a must.

I think it's an over site that will hopefully be pointed out to them in the survey.

ChubbyRain

2017-01-21, 10:31 AM

No one's posted yet...
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/ranger-and-rogue

Thoughts?

Wow... Level 3 Scout will be fun.

Random question... Wasn't there a rule about not having the same name for different things... Isn't there a scout fighter archetype?

JumboWheat01

2017-01-21, 12:11 PM

Wow... Level 3 Scout will be fun.

Random question... Wasn't there a rule about not having the same name for different things... Isn't there a scout fighter archetype?

Yes there was, in the Classic Kits Revisited. This was well before the redone ranger, and many saw it as a better ranger than the ranger. Certainly a good spell-less alternative.

Sicarius Victis

2017-01-21, 03:16 PM

You know, the Horizon Walker's Planar Magic spells are kind of a mishmash, flavour-wise. The first three focus on the "planar adaptation" that the 3.X Horizon Walker had, while the fourth and fifth focus on the teleportation that this version does. I'd like to see modified spell lists for it split into those two aspects - one for Adaptation, one for Teleportation.

tieren

2017-01-21, 08:55 PM

Was looking at primeval guardian and druid multiclass, but now wondering if it would be broken to just make the Guardian conclave a Druid circle (aka guardian circle).

Do you think anything would need to be toned down or adjusted?

Temperjoke

2017-01-21, 09:01 PM

Oh god, just had a thought...

http://www.pokemon-sunmoon.com/media/uploads/aug_1_assets/a-exeggutor.png

SpawnOfMorbo

2017-01-21, 11:10 PM

Oh god, just had a thought...

http://www.pokemon-sunmoon.com/media/uploads/aug_1_assets/a-exeggutor.png

Would Nebby's favored enemy be bags?

DracoKnight

2017-01-21, 11:25 PM

Would Nebby's favored enemy be bags?

Obviously! :smallbiggrin:

Capt_Flintlock

2017-01-24, 12:49 AM

I love Horizon Walker, but I don't understand why their 5th level spell is Alter Self and not Misty Step.

DracoKnight

2017-01-24, 01:35 AM

I love Horizon Walker, but I don't understand why their 5th level spell is Alter Self and not Misty Step.

The reason I see it as being good for the Horizon Walker is that they are a planar traveler, and they might have need to blend into the natives of whatever plane their on. Or maybe some accident happened, and they made it to the plane that's their destination, but their weapons didn't. Just a couple of examples of why it's good for a planar traveler.

Caelestion

2017-01-24, 05:30 AM

Alter self also provides the ability to breathe underwater.

Sicarius Victis

2017-01-24, 05:48 AM

I love Horizon Walker, but I don't understand why their 5th level spell is Alter Self and not Misty Step.

That's what I was talking about, with the mismatched spell list.

DracoKnight

2017-01-24, 07:48 AM

Alter self also provides the ability to breathe underwater.

More points for alter self staying on their spell list.

Harrumphreys

2017-01-24, 02:07 PM

We've had a week to ruminate. What do people think about a Ranger using Guardian Soul to grow Large, and swinging with double dice on weapon attacks?

Temperjoke

2017-01-24, 02:19 PM

We've had a week to ruminate. What do people think about a Ranger using Guardian Soul to grow Large, and swinging with double dice on weapon attacks?

You know, I had a thought about this.

What about a rule saying that a Large creature can use a heavy 2H weapon as a 1H weapon? No change to the damage for using it 1H instead of 2h as compensation for your bigger physical size, but then you wouldn't need a special weapon for your Large form. So, a Greatsword would be something like a Longsword for your Large form.

Maxilian

2017-01-24, 02:22 PM

We've had a week to ruminate. What do people think about a Ranger using Guardian Soul to grow Large, and swinging with double dice on weapon attacks?

No, that only applies to monster, if it were to work with PC, then the Enlarge spell would double dice on weapon attacks instead of adding a 1d4.

Note: It will end up breaking the game (it may not look like a big deal for some in paper, but in practice it will be troublesome)

Maxilian

2017-01-24, 02:24 PM

I love Horizon Walker, but I don't understand why their 5th level spell is Alter Self and not Misty Step.

Most likely to be able to adapt to the different planes they walk into

SpawnOfMorbo

2017-01-24, 02:26 PM

Most likely to be able to adapt to the different planes they walk into

Which should be a base feature of the base Ranger when it comes to different environments they may travel through... But no... You get to be really really restricted... Fun times!

MeeposFire

2017-01-24, 03:08 PM

No, that only applies to monster, if it were to work with PC, then the Enlarge spell would double dice on weapon attacks instead of adding a 1d4.

Note: It will end up breaking the game (it may not look like a big deal for some in paper, but in practice it will be troublesome)

I actually think that is why they added the d6 extra damage. It is their way of getting that bonus damage in but keeping it consistent just like they did with enlarge person (if you use a dagger then it does do double dice but it does not improve with the weapon and I think the d6 here accomplishes the same thing).

I think without that d6 bonus damage that double weapon dice would be on the overpowered side but not breaking the game. At worst it would be an additional 3.5 damage more than what it already has. That may be more than we want but is certainly not game breaking there is a difference between the two.

Maxilian

2017-01-24, 03:13 PM

I actually think that is why they added the d6 extra damage. It is their way of getting that bonus damage in but keeping it consistent just like they did with enlarge person (if you use a dagger then it does do double dice but it does not improve with the weapon and I think the d6 here accomplishes the same thing).

I agree

I think without that d6 bonus damage that double weapon dice would be on the overpowered side but not breaking the game. At worst it would be an additional 3.5 damage more than what it already has. That may be more than we want but is certainly not game breaking there is a difference between the two.

and i don't agree here, cause it won't brake the game but will push people to go with a more Optimized build (2handed weapons, a Maul for 4d6 or a Axe for 2d12 in case your DM says only one of the dices is added to the Maul), so... again i will go with no.

Also by Breaking the game is not like the game will be extremely easily or anything like that, but the different of power between the diferent players will be obvious and will end up making the rest of the party feel... less usefull and will take some of the fun for those players (that is for me how you break the game, taking the fun away from the players or the DM)

Maxilian

2017-01-24, 03:15 PM

Which should be a base feature of the base Ranger when it comes to different environments they may travel through... But no... You get to be really really restricted... Fun times!

Well yeah, i would also make them more a INT based, mainly cause the Astral plane movement is based on the creature INT, so it is weird that someone that have the ability to move to the Astral Plane (They have some abilities that move him especifically to the Astral plane) is also not prepared to move in such place, or just make him use his WIS instead of INT

Note: I agree with you

SpawnOfMorbo

2017-01-24, 03:17 PM

I agree

and i don't agree here, cause it won't brake the game but will push people to go with a more Optimized build (2handed weapons, a Maul for 4d6 or a Axe for 2d12 in case your DM says only one of the dices is added to the Maul), so... again i will go with no.

Also by Breaking the game is not like the game will be extremely easily or anything like that, but the different of power between the diferent players will be obvious and will end up making the rest of the party feel... less usefull and will take some of the fun for those players (that is for me how you break the game, taking the fun away from the players or the DM)

Yeah, damage is the least broken thing about this game. It is also the easiest thing to mitigate as a DM.

Maxilian

2017-01-24, 03:26 PM

Yeah, damage is the least broken thing about this game. It is also the easiest thing to mitigate as a DM.

You could mitigate it, but it doesn't change that the rest of the party will feel the power that comes with that character and that somethings are actually tailored to deal with that character and that your character became the companion of the Main character of the series.

SpawnOfMorbo

2017-01-24, 03:43 PM

You could mitigate it, but it doesn't change that the rest of the party will feel the power that comes with that character and that somethings are actually tailored to deal with that character and that your character became the companion of the Main character of the series.

The least powerful character is one that only deals HP damage.

Everyone can do enough damage to keep up with the game, the classes that optimize for doing damage miss out on so much more for a focus that is... Meh.

Barbarian can deal twice as much as the Sorcerer? They are on equal grounds against anything with resistance to non-magical damage (which is quite common among monsters I've seen used a lot even by DMs outside my typical circle).

martials only have one or two attacks for most of their careers, magic users can start effecting multiple creatures with damage (or non-damage) starting at level 1.

If you are worried about HP damage as a DM, you need to rethink how you are going about your designs. Even without resistances to damage, you have so many ways to challenge such characters that it isn't even funny at this point.

Though I love when a character uses their key ability. I don't always take it away, that isn't fun, but I'll make everyone work for it. Very few times will "I move up and attack" be the end of it.

Maxilian

2017-01-24, 03:48 PM

The least powerful character is one that only deals HP damage.

Everyone can do enough damage to keep up with the game, the classes that optimize for doing damage miss out on so much more for a focus that is... Meh.

Barbarian can deal twice as much as the Sorcerer? They are on equal grounds against anything with resistance to non-magical damage (which is quite common among monsters I've seen used a lot even by DMs outside my typical circle).

martials only have one or two attacks for most of their careers, magic users can start effecting multiple creatures with damage (or non-damage) starting at level 1.

If you are worried about HP damage as a DM, you need to rethink how you are going about your designs. Even without resistances to damage, you have so many ways to challenge such characters that it isn't even funny at this point.

Though I love when a character uses their key ability. I don't always take it away, that isn't fun, but I'll make everyone work for it. Very few times will "I move up and attack" be the end of it.

I'm not talking about challenge, because its true that it will always stay, the challenge won't dissapear but it would feel bad for the martial classes if they end up becoming weaker in what they are supposed to be the best, than a MC character that have much more options (they got more variety with their spells and everything else, and also do more damage to single targets than a full martial class)

Note: Have in mind, that not always your PC party will be only full of casters (so you have to make sure those that don´t have as many options, feel good with what they have)