Educate me on Rogues

[Auramis]

Alright, so I'm having a discussion with my brother about rogues in light of the Scout being released today. I'm not here to discuss the Scout. We got to talking about rogue in general, and do forgive me if this has been said already, but does rogue seem weak when compared with everything else?

I read over rogue, and I can't say there's anything wrong with the class at all. It's designed well enough, doesn't seem to have any glaring flaws, and, at the end of the day, it feels like a rogue. With that said, my brother says it feels like its job can be taken over by every other class... Like, he can't see a situation where he might take a Rogue: Scout over a (UA) Ranger: Hunter. He went through a list of the other archetypes vs other classes, and he made fair points with me. I can see, from a flavor and minor gameplay standpoint, why rogue might be preferred by some over the other classes, but I can see it from his angle just as easily.

Is there something we're missing with rogue that makes it worth taking over bards or rangers or fighters? Is it all in the flavor, which we might be downplaying a bit too much? Help me out here.

Edit: We couldn't figure it out and were even starting to wonder if rogue would be better as an archetype for fighter. I feel that's a bit extreme, but it's what we came to. I would LOVE to hear the case for rogue, because I feel like I'd rather see why the rogue is good or fix the rogue itself rather than think of it to be so meager it's only worth an archetype.

Edit 2: I countered my brother's archetype argument with "dissolve thief into base rogue", and that sounds better to me, but this is leaning toward homebrew discussion at this point.

[JellyPooga]

Is it that anything a Rogue can do can be duplicated by other classes OR is it that Rogues can do anything other Classes can do and that makes Rogues awesome?

The Rogue has the maneuverability of a Monk, the AC of an Eldritch Knight, the Tankiness of a Barbarian, Skills that are unmatched by any but the Bard, excellent single target damage and an all-day-every-day attitude that just won't quit. Almost no resource management beyond his HP to worry about means a Rogue will fit into any party; whether that party be reliant on long rests, short rests or no rests like himself.

[Contrast]

Have you ever actually played as rogue or seen one in play?

Expertise is a big deal in bounded accuracy. Cunning Action massively changes how you can maneuver around a battlefield. Uncanny Dodge, Evasion and a dex focused build suddenly makes you surprisingly resilient.

Doing sneak attack feels very different as a player than attacking as a warrior (and oh beautiful those crits).

If you're going to argue that rogue should be a fighter archetype I think theres equally compelling arguments that paladins, barbarians and rangers all should be as well (I do not agree with that line of argument and disagree with it regarding the rogue as well).

[Potato_Priest]

One of the main things about the rogue class that distinguishes it from the fighter is that it's combat abilities, while powerful, are added onto the chassis of its exploration and interaction abilities, rather than the other way around. Like the bard, it is a class based not on combat, but on the other 2 pillars of adventuring, with combat abilities thrown in. It differs from the bard in its particular area of expertise, and the mostly non-magical way in which it excels at interaction and exploration.

[Theodoxus]

Rogue is my favorite class, bar none - exactly for the reasons Contrast has outlined. Rogue makes an excellent dip - two levels for cunning action is on par with 2 levels of fighter for action surge. Sneak is so versatile, and with various archetypes, can be achieved in exactly the manner you want to tailor your playstyle to.

Scout, since you brought it up, fits the niche its looking for, but I don't think I'd ever use it. I'd probably do a Hunter/Swashbuckler MC instead...

[Fishyninja]

My two pence on Rogues (as playing as a Rogue: Arcane Trickster).

They are extremely versatile for all the reasons mentioned above (cunning action, uncanny dodge, sneak attacks etc).

Again the playstyle is different to the classic sword and board fighter/martial class of going in and normally hitting for big damage consistently. Rogues (Monks also share this too) are almost mini-battle controllers, they go in, focus on high damage on a single target and basically are there to piss of the enemies or put them in precarious situations for the other members. On the flipside they are great for assisting other party members (again Sneak Attacks).

With the Arcane Trickster, throw in magic, that's amazing. I have to admit I do not know too much about the scout class as of yet.

[Auramis]

Have you ever actually played as rogue or seen one in play?

Expertise is a big deal in bounded accuracy. Cunning Action massively changes how you can maneuver around a battlefield. Uncanny Dodge, Evasion and a dex focused build suddenly makes you surprisingly resilient.

Doing sneak attack feels very different as a player than attacking as a warrior (and oh beautiful those crits).

If you're going to argue that rogue should be a fighter archetype I think theres equally compelling arguments that paladins, barbarians and rangers all should be as well (I do not agree with that line of argument and disagree with it regarding the rogue as well).

I don't agree with that argument either. It was my brother's point, and I felt that he was grossly in the wrong. I said, at most, I'd just dissolve thief into base rogue, but even that feels like too much. The more I review rogue, the less I think it needs work... except AT. I kinda think the Mage Hand doubles down with its free advantage on attacks. It's already got plenty of ways to set off SA. I'd rather have something like... trading places with illusions or something at level 13. Something akin to Blackguard's Step from the paladin UA, or gaining advantage for illusions near enemies.

[Fishyninja]

except AT. I kinda think the Mage Hand doubles down with its free advantage on attacks. It's already got plenty of ways to set off SA.

Can MHL do that? It has verbal and somatic components, so surely they breaks the element of surprise? Unless you can fluff it to "Hey look behind you!"

Edit: Turns out you can

[Mellack]

The Mage Hand power of AT is that it lets them do all their sneaky rogue tricks....from 30 feet away. Now they can grab those keys from a guard without having to move near him. Grab the idol while being across the room. Plus they get spells on top of that.

[Auramis]

The Mage Hand power of AT is that it lets them do all their sneaky rogue tricks....from 30 feet away. Now they can grab those keys from a guard without having to move near him. Grab the idol while being across the room. Plus they get spells on top of that.

I should clarify in saying I love that part of AT's Mage Hand. It's the level 13 benefit that I think is a bit silly.

[Fishyninja]

I should clarify in saying I love that part of AT's Mage Hand. It's the level 13 benefit that I think is a bit silly.

Is it solely just for gaining more advantage. I personally think it's a great use of the MHL!

Then again trading bases with illusions is also very cool. That would make me feel like Loki from Marvel, or Blake from RWBY.

[Ninja_Prawn]

and an all-day-every-day attitude that just won't quit.

This should appear on every rogue's CV!

On topic, I'll be another to say that rogue is my favourite class. It's so much fun to play, because you can do all sorts of stuff without having to keep track of x/short rest and spell slots (for the most part). It's SAD so it's easy to build, and having lots of Dex is always good in an action-adventure game. The fluff gives you a lot of leeway to play a wide range of characters, too.

[Fishyninja]

The fluff gives you a lot of leeway to play a wide range of characters, too.

Max Valentine, Asritocat, Social Butterfly and Master Swordsman by Day. Cat Thief, Burglar and general Ne-er do-well at night.

[MeeposFire]

I would love adding the thief abilities to all rogues but alas that is never to be (cmon thief and an archetype of choice would be the best).

[Yagyujubei]

I would love adding the thief abilities to all rogues but alas that is never to be (cmon thief and an archetype of choice would be the best).

it would also be absurdly overpowered lol. god forbid you ever get a lvl 20 rogue with both thief and assassin archetypes...they would one shot everything first turn lol

[erok0809]

Assassin with sharpshooter. Be the sniper you always wanted to be. And if you manage surprise? Have fun with that fistful of d6's you'll be rolling. Add in a 2 level fighter dip for action surge, and double your damage output for that round. So much fun! I'm doing this in my AL game, although I haven't dipped fighter because I don't know what level we'll get to and don't want to miss too much rogue stuff. I participated in the fight from my bed in the inn once, sniping while everyone else was outside up close to the enemy. I love it, and I'm typically the guy who only plays casters, with all their options and micromanaging that they need. Sometimes "I shoot him in the head. Bonus action dash away. Move further with my movement." Is all I need to be happy.

[MeeposFire]

it would also be absurdly overpowered lol. god forbid you ever get a lvl 20 rogue with both thief and assassin archetypes...they would one shot everything first turn lol

Yea the level 17 one would have to be left out if you were actually ever going to do.

However the other abilities would not break the bank but are also not required using either.

[MeeposFire]

Assassin with sharpshooter. Be the sniper you always wanted to be. And if you manage surprise? Have fun with that fistful of d6's you'll be rolling. Add in a 2 level fighter dip for action surge, and double your damage output for that round. So much fun! I'm doing this in my AL game, although I haven't dipped fighter because I don't know what level we'll get to and don't want to miss too much rogue stuff. I participated in the fight from my bed in the inn once, sniping while everyone else was outside up close to the enemy. I love it, and I'm typically the guy who only plays casters, with all their options and micromanaging that they need. Sometimes "I shoot him in the head. Bonus action dash away. Move further with my movement." Is all I need to be happy.

Oddly statistically sharp shooter for the -5/+10 actually would lower your damage on the whole with a rogue. The more damage you do on a hit the worse off sharpshooter gets. IN addition the big boost from assassin involves crits which do not affect the +10 damage from sharpshooter.

[BW022]

Is there something we're missing with rogue that makes it worth taking over bards or rangers or fighters? Is it all in the flavor, which we might be downplaying a bit too much? Help me out here.


The 'feel' of almost any class could be duplicated via a mixture of multi-classing, backgrounds, feats, etc. However, such builds are typically not optimal.

A rogue (generally) has: good skills (expertise), mobility (via cunning action), ability to attack while hidden (sneak attack and cunning action), avoid some damage taken (uncanny dodge), etc.

No single class has all this, or even most of it. Bards would gain expertise. Monks would have (some) mobility. A Halfling or Wood-elf might have (some) hiding options. A ranger or warlock might gain some ability to add damage to attacks (via spells). Barbarians gain the ability to reduce damage during a rage. etc. However... I don't know any way to get a 5th-level character with say +3d6 sneak attack, ability to hide as a bonus action, high skill bonuses, ability to avoid damage, ability to move quickly and disengage quickly, etc. You could make a bard/barbarian/monk/ranger and try simulating some of these -- monk movement, bard expertise, ranger spells for extra attack damage, rage to reduce damage taken, etc. However, this is far from ideal.

Would you 'feel' like a rogue with a bard who couldn't deal 20hp of damage while hidden? Would you feel like a rogue with a ranger who couldn't disengage easily or who had to cast spells just to get an extra +1d6 damage?

[Yagyujubei]

Yea the level 17 one would have to be left out if you were actually ever going to do.

However the other abilities would not break the bank but are also not required using either.

that i agree with you on. especially since in most campaigns ive played in the DMs let everyone use magic items pretty leniently so that becomes a wasted ability too, and roof work or whatever should be part of every rogue imho.

[MrStabby]

More from the DMs side here...

Rogues are really good. You need to pick that lock before the Iron Golem catches you? A rogue has a good shot. Need someone who knows more about arcana than the wizard? Step up rogue.

You have a point that rogue is not better than other classes can be at a lot of things but it can be equal best at a lot of things at once.

For all its' reputation the rogue is a class of a team player. Is pick locks better than knock? Rarely - but you just saved your team a spell slot. Stealth better than arcane eye? No... but again your earned your team a spell slot back. Rogue skills are kind of like the bard song of rest - it gives the whole of the rest of your party more resources.

In combat they hold their own. Maybe not top of the damage tree but solid enough and very, very versatile.

Defensively they can pull their weight, but not like any other class. Evasion make their hit points go further as can judicious use of uncanny dodge. Ideally though you want to pull enemies out of combat and use your superior mobility to leave them stranded with no one to attack.



Some of this obviously overlaps with caster but the rogue really comes into their own with less liberal DMs. You cast a spell - you alert enemies to your presence (unless it doesn't have verbal components). You wear heavy armour - better not need to swim anywhere... When you throw the unexpected at the party it is usually the rogue who has the skill, the tool and the initiative to adapt and respond to the unexpected and to get the party out of trouble. The rogue solves it whilst the wizard is begging for a long rest so he can prepare a more appropriate set of spells.

[EvilAnagram]

A Jack of all trades
And master of none
Is often much better
Than a master of one

The rogue can do anything competently. Sure, many classes can perform a specific focus better than a rogue, but the rogue will perform adequately in that focus and five others.

[coredump]

Are you kidding??

Expertise (x4)
Cunning action
Reliable Talent

Some of the best abilities in the entire game!

[BillyBobShorton]

I think the overall concensus has properly conveyed: rogues are freaking sick! Especially when paired with the mobile feat and a good race. The key is being a creative player & skilled in action economy.

[Hawkstar]

You don't take Sharpshooter on the rogue for the -5/+10. You take it for Long Range Sneak Attacks.

Tabaxi Rogues (Especially with Mobile) are absolutely insane when it comes to mobility (And in a lot of towns/cities, they can get up to crazy hijinks and run away)

[Foxhound438]

The rogue is more or less unique in its damage growth, which is really never far behind any other class, and the flexibility of cunning action can be more fun for some people. Generally, though, the best part of rogue is all the skills you get, and having expertise in some of them. Sure, you can argue that bard is just as good as rouge for skills and has spells, but bard lacks the easy at-will damage that rogues get. It's more or less a case of rogue being a side grade to a lot of things, with pros and cons to everything...

But most importantly, in my opinion, is that it's different enough to warrant a different play style, and that's kind of the best part of starting a new character: fresh air. Sure, maybe the battle master fighter you've played in 8 different campaigns might be able to do a bit more damage, but this time you get to be the guy who gets all the skill checks and never needs healing at the end of a fight, thanks to all that great hiding you did.

[JackPhoenix]

I would love adding the thief abilities to all rogues but alas that is never to be (cmon thief and an archetype of choice would be the best).

Of course it would be the best. Getting benefits of two archetypes at the same time would be the best for any class. No more choosing between Open Hand and Shadow Monk, or Champion and Battlemaster Fighter...

[Yagyujubei]

lest we forget that above all of this rogues get a ****load of feats in their progression and with a power gamer mindset you can create some insane combinations with the strong feats. ever seen a rogue with weapon/polearm master and sentinel? it's pretty silly

[Fishyninja]

ever seen a rogue with weapon/polearm master and sentinel? it's pretty silly

*Town Guard to Civillian* Have you seen a shifty looking guy in dark clothing carrying a halberd around here?*

*Civillian* Shrugs

*Rougue-y McPolearm* Behind lamppost Tee-hee hee

[Yagyujubei]

*Town Guard to Civillian* Have you seen a shifty looking guy in dark clothing carrying a halberd around here?*

*Civillian* Shrugs

*Rougue-y McPolearm* Behind lamppost Tee-hee hee

the halberd is disguised AS the lamppost though with leet disguise skills

[Fishyninja]

the halberd is disguised AS the lamppost though with leet disguise skills

That is getting close to disguising your self as a lamp in hide and seek by putitng a shade on your head!

Also this above quote also shows another reason why Rogues are awesomesauce.

[JellyPooga]

*Town Guard to Civillian* Have you seen a shifty looking guy in dark clothing carrying a halberd around here?*

*Civillian* Shrugs

*Rougue-y McPolearm* Behind lamppost Tee-hee hee

The better approach would be to disguise yourself as a polearm-weilding town guard and ask the real town guard if he's seen you...

[Fishyninja]

*Town Guard* Hey You!
*Disguised Rogue* Huh?
*TG* have you seen a shifty looking guy carrying a halberd?
*DR* About your height, Halberd, Dressed like you.......
*TG*.......E'Gads you are right. I am placing myself under arrest. I have the right to remain silent.
*DR* I congratulate you on doing your duty.

[JellyPooga]

*Town Guard* Hey You!
*Disguised Rogue* Huh?
*TG* have you seen a shifty looking guy carrying a halberd?
*DR* About your height, Halberd, Dressed like you.......
*TG*.......E'Gads you are right. I am placing myself under arrest. I have the right to remain silent.
*DR* I congratulate you on doing your duty.

Truly there is *nothing* a sufficiently high Deception check cannot achieve.

[Fishyninja]

Truly there is *nothing* a sufficiently high Deception check cannot achieve.

Or any dice roll fear love and respect that d20 for it can change your world!

*Not sponsored by Dungeons & Dragons*

[Auramis]

All fair points, and exactly what I was hoping to hear from everyone! Thanks for the input, everyone. I think MrStabby's comments really got it for me. It may have been DMing issues that worked against the rogue in our group. I'll try and carry that knowledge back when we meet next. Maybe everyone won't be so adverse to rogue.

[Yagyujubei]

All fair points, and exactly what I was hoping to hear from everyone! Thanks for the input, everyone. I think MrStabby's comments really got it for me. It may have been DMing issues that worked against the rogue in our group. I'll try and carry that knowledge back when we meet next. Maybe everyone won't be so adverse to rogue.

i will say that whoever is playing the rogue really has to have knowledge of the game, some imagination and pay attention to what they can do for it to really work. I've played with a number of newer people who think rogue looks cool and then waste the class completely by never trying to hide or sneak in battle, not taking full use of cunning action or not even positioning in such a way that they can get SA off every turn. not only that since alot of what makes rogue great is out of combat stuff a person who is new and maybe not comfortable with roleplay or the rules wont be able to make full use of it.