Straight Factotum or Factotum/Chameleon

[Stealth Marmot]

So I'm joining a new 3.5 game and I have mostly convinced my DM to allow the Factotum class and Chameleon prestige class.

I haven't rolled the character yet but I am wondering if you guys think I should stick with Factotum or instead start taking the Chameleon class at level 6? I have to decide now because of the Able Learner feat requirement which has to be taken first level.

I definitely want to play a Factotum for the wide skill monkey purposes, but taking Chameleon would be a really good method of expanding my capabilities and adding some real punch and power to my abilities. However I'm wondering if there are reasons to stick with Factotum instead. After all, the Factotum has better skill points and at least one good save by default.

Have any of you played the Factotum, or the Chameleon? What were your experiences?

(By the way, I made sure he was aware that I was very likely going to take Improved Trip because holy crap, Brains Over Brawn + Improved trip means you add Str Bonus + Int bonus + 4 to a trip attack verse their one stat (str OR dex), that if successful means you get a free attack against a now prone target (-4 AC) that doesn't even eat up your attack of opportunity, he's okay with that. What sucks is that all of my feats until 6th level are taken up by that one trip ability, but it's a hell of a way to make friends. "Hey fighter, I just moved behind that guy and provided a flank, got in a hit, and dropped him to the ground. You get a +6 to hit him and he's at -4 to hit you, plus you and me both get an attack of opportunity if he tries to get up to fix that." Of course if the creature is large, quadripedal, or an ooze...)

[gorfnab]

I would go with Factotum 8/ Chameleon X. Factotum 8 gives you Cunning Surge which is just awesome. Being able to take extra standard actions in a round is extremely useful.

Be sure to load up on Font of Inspiration (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606).

As usual there are Factotum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272130-Getting-the-Facts-Straight-A-Factotum-Handbook-(WIP-PEACH)) Handbooks (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8685) available.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I second factotum 8/chameleon. But ask your DM for a houserule: chameleon class features (except the floating feat) can be used for prereqs, because not allowing that castrates any progression you might take after chameleon is over with for no reason. Any other class can progress just fine, but chameleon can't, and all it does is ruin your chances to take viable options at high levels. Otherwise your only real options are ToB classes, and pigeonholing yourself like that when nobody else has to just isn't fun.

Also, I wouldn't take more than 3 iterations of Font of Inspiration unless you just don't have any feats you want to take; 6+ inspiration points per is easily enough to get along with for most encounters, especially if a good chunk of your build is factotum.

[barakaka]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can cast Unfettered Heroism, and then use your action points to emulate Font of Inspiration every turn. Could be fun on a scroll. If the DM rules that the inspiration points refresh, then you can dump them into more actions. My DM did anyway, and the Factotum zipped up a tower and emptied a wand of Orb of Force defeating like 2 Dread Wraiths, a wraith and a Lich... in 2 rounds.

[Doctor Despair]

For either of these PrCs, don't forget liberal use of Supernatural Transformation ;)

Edit: Why can't the Chameleon progress using those abilities as prerequisites? I was expecting to find some text prohibiting using those abilities to meet prerequisites, but I found no such text in the PrC.

My issue with cross-classing Factotum here is that it guts your casting progression. Use of Bloodlines and some sort of Theurge class might help out, but Chameleon is so class-feature heavy that it hurts not to follow that progression to completion.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For either of these PrCs, don't forget liberal use of Supernatural Transformation ;)Depends on your DM's interpretation of "innate" spell-likes. It works for psionics when you have the Magic Mantle, because A.) psionic manifesting is psi-like, which is the magic version of spell-likes (and thus the Magic Mantle treats them as equivalent), and B.) psionics is explicitly denoted to be an innate ability, RAW. Doing so for these PrCs might not work, since they are not noted to be "innate."


Edit: Why can't the Chameleon progress using those abilities as prerequisites? I was expecting to find some text prohibiting using those abilities to meet prerequisites, but I found no such text in the PrC.Under "Class Features": You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.

That's all of the good abilities of the class


My issue with cross-classing Factotum here is that it guts your casting progression. Use of Bloodlines and some sort of Theurge class might help out, but Chameleon is so class-feature heavy that it hurts not to follow that progression to completion.Factotums don't get very good casting anyway; chameleon has much better casting, overall, and you're basically replacing further factotum casting for chameleon casting.

I'd consider both factotum 11/chameleon 9 and factotum 8/chameleon 10/X 2 (possibly swordsage). It depends on whether you prefer ignoring SR or whether you want all the extra abilities "X 2" and the capstone of chameleon can give you.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can cast Unfettered Heroism, and then use your action points to emulate Font of Inspiration every turn. Could be fun on a scroll. If the DM rules that the inspiration points refresh, then you can dump them into more actions. My DM did anyway, and the Factotum zipped up a tower and emptied a wand of Orb of Force defeating like 2 Dread Wraiths, a wraith and a Lich... in 2 rounds.Only if you're using action points. If you're not...

[edit] You may want to look at this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?145669-Making-the-Chameleon-even-more-awesome-(PEACH)

[Rebel7284]

It is very much a tradeoff. There is something to be said about getting into Chameleon as soon as possible to get access to all those spells while they are most relevant. However, cunning surge is ridiculous, even with the reasonable houserule that you can only use it once per round. I really don't know which is better.

As far as Improved Trip goes, I mean, sure you're not using up an AOO, but you are using an attack. How good it is will depend on the type of enemies your DM likes using. Int + Str + 4 is nice, but large quadrupeds are not exactly rare. Sure you can enlarge person/polymorph yourself, but that takes actions.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It is very much a tradeoff. There is something to be said about getting into Chameleon as soon as possible to get access to all those spells while they are most relevant. However, cunning surge is ridiculous, even with the reasonable houserule that you can only use it once per round. I really don't know which is better.

As far as Improved Trip goes, I mean, sure you're not using up an AOO, but you are using an attack. How good it is will depend on the type of enemies your DM likes using. Int + Str + 4 is nice, but large quadrupeds are not exactly rare. Sure you can enlarge person/polymorph yourself, but that takes actions.There's always human with Jotunbrud (or Improved Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-eldritch-heritage) with giant bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-3rd-party-publishers/spes-magna-games---sorcerer-bloodline/giant-bloodline) in a 3.P game) or half-giant or goliath with Human Heritage or Human Blood. You could even go the latter and dip a level in goliath racial ACF for barbarian to make yourself Large. There are other abilities to stack, as well. Like with Tiny von BigMcLargeHuge (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6428.0) (which you can qualify for using Human Heritage or Human Blood or half-kobold or something.

[Thurbane]

See if your DM will let you shoehorn some Uncanny Trickster in there. It will advance Chameleon 2/3, and offers far better skill points.

[Fizban]

I find that entering Chameleon late is extremely underwhelming, and Factotum is a terrible PrC entry-notice how everyone says Facto 8, because free standard actions are the only thing that really matters. You might also consider that if you had to convince your DM to allow them in the first place, they might not like it when you start slinging two spells a round from two different lists when the build gets going.

Since you want to play Factotum from the start, I'd say stick with that. Maybe ask for a feat to let you use a spell from Arcane Dilettante more than once if you want more magical oomph.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I find that entering Chameleon late is extremely underwhelming, and Factotum is a terrible PrC entry-notice how everyone says Facto 8, because free standard actions are the only thing that really matters. You might also consider that if you had to convince your DM to allow them in the first place, they might not like it when you start slinging two spells a round from two different lists when the build gets going.

Since you want to play Factotum from the start, I'd say stick with that. Maybe ask for a feat to let you use a spell from Arcane Dilettante more than once if you want more magical oomph.If his DM allows chameleon to qualify for other classes and comes up with additional spell progressions beyond 10th (for casting progression PrCs), he could always go something like factotum 3 (for skill boosting with Able Learner)/dungeon crasher fighter 2 (for laying the smack down)/chameleon 10/dweomerkeeper 4 (for supernatural spell 1/day)/swordsage 1 (for the high level maneuvers).

That'd be fun, right?

[Kelb_Panthera]

My advice is this:

Factotum is a -terrible- entry into chameleon. Pick one or the other.

If you do pick chameleon, you'll need to either enter from something with disguise as a class skill or at least dip such a class for level 1. I don't -think- there are any classes who have disguise that don't also have bluff so filtering your search by disguise should be fine.

I like factotum 1/ incarnate 4/ chameleon 10/ X 5 where X is either something front-loaded with generally useful abilities or abilities that scale with character level rather than class level, else more incarnate.

[Nifft]

I came here to say stuff that's already been said, and probably better, but I'll throw my 2 cp in anyway.

IMHO you really want to hit Chameleon right after level 5. If you want to go Chameleon -- and Chameleon is great, so wanting to go Chameleon is a great decision -- then you should consider abandoning Factotum, since Factotum is a weird other thing that isn't really useful at only 5 levels before Chameleon.

For Chameleon prereqs, I recommend some mix of Rogue / Swordsage / Incarnate, plus one level of a legit spellcaster (e.g. Cloistered Cleric) + the Practiced Spellcaster feat, so you have a legit spellcaster level of at least 5 when you want to use your floating feat for downtime Item Creation stuff.

[Eldaran]

I think straight Factotum is good, their class features are nice, although they get their best stuff by level 8 there's still a lot of good there, and more Inspiration is always useful. But a pure Factotum build will want to be taking a lot of Font of Inspiration, probably 4-5 times are higher levels. Because Font of Inspiration is so important for them, it makes them a pretty lackluster entry to Chameleon. Chameleon is mostly played as a form of Mystic Theurge, which means you want to get into it as soon as possible.

[Harlekin]

how long do you expect the game to last? And how fast do you advance? This makes a huge difference.

If your games tend to fall apart at 6-8 level, stay with factotum, if you can reasonable expect to reach higher levels, chameleon is the way to go.

[Stealth Marmot]

My advice is this:

Factotum is a -terrible- entry into chameleon. Pick one or the other.

If you do pick chameleon, you'll need to either enter from something with disguise as a class skill or at least dip such a class for level 1. I don't -think- there are any classes who have disguise that don't also have bluff so filtering your search by disguise should be fine.

I like factotum 1/ incarnate 4/ chameleon 10/ X 5 where X is either something front-loaded with generally useful abilities or abilities that scale with character level rather than class level, else more incarnate.

Why would Factotum be a terrible entry for a Chameleon?

A Factotum is INT favored, as are the arcane spells of the Chameleon, The Factotum also spreads his other stats fairly evenly, as does the Chameleon, Using Able Learner as a Factotum means that basically ALL skills become class skills FOREVER, and the ability to get your INT bonus to an attack roll, damage roll, armor class, or even better saving throw a few times an encounter AND on basically every out of combat trap in the game. Plus the ability to get a +5 on one roll of any out of combat skill check (including knowledge and social skills) per skill per day, and your INT bonus on every dex and strength check or dex and strength based skill? Plus you get the ability for some out of combat healing and some low level arcane spells which can be useful, especially since you can decide what spell you want to cast that morning. The Factotum also gets martial weapon proficiency, which is nice since they don't have to lug two sets of weapons around (one for when he decides to be a fighter that morning and one for if he wasn't). He can just carry sword and board or greatsword around (Because seriously, why would anyone use any other martial weapon), and keep a composite longbow tuned to his str bonus.

The only other core classes that could potentially have bluff AND disguise as class skills are bard and rogue. The bard gets a little more arcane power, with a few more spells per day, though they have limited spells known, and gets a better will save, and they DO get bardic knowledge, but their bardic music abilities stop progressing and are of limited to no use at higher levels since it means a full standard action of using it to start getting the minor benefit, not to mention keeping it going is a bit of a pain. They also get fewer hit points to boot. The amazingly wide array of bonuses a factotum gets outweighs that easily. Plus Factotum gets all class skills, while bard just gets MOST.

The rogue is probably a better contender. Hard to argue with evasion, uncanny dodge AND 3d6 sneak attack, plus getting more skill points. However they also get fewer hit points, and substantially fewer overall class skills (though they get a LOT), and don't get martial weapon proficiency. Also, a chameleon eventually gets the ability to use evasion in a pinch if needed, so that dulls the shine of evasion a BIT (but not THAT much depending on how often you have to make reflex saves). All that said, it's comparable to Factotum, and possibly better depending on the situation, but not overwhelmingly better considering just how many different bonuses and abilities the Factotum gets.

I think I'm going to take all of your collective advice and decide to just go straight Factotum until at least 8th level, and maybe just stick with it the whole time. I might take the advice of dipping into Uncanny Trickster though, gaining a bunch of skill tricks and such might prove immensely useful.

This does give me the nice advantage of not having to take the rather useless Able Learner Feat first level, and instead take Font of Inspiration (if he allows it). I still want to take Improved trip though. We'll be starting at 3rd level, and that ability to trip with an additional int bonus is AMAZING when paired with the +4 of improved trip.

6th and 9th level will probably mean Font of Inspiration for me as well, especially since at 8th level those points become potential extra standard actions, or a potential sneak attack bomb. (Funny thing when you hit 4th level and you take 3 levels of Font of inspiration and decide you want to use it all on one sneak attack, and hit for weapon damage +9d6).

Looking at the skill tricks, I'll probably invest in some of those as well.

[Fouredged Sword]

The problem is that while Factotum and Chameleon seem to do the same thing, they do different things in different and not very well mixing ways.

Factotum is a skill monkey, focused on maxing out int and skill related abilities with a spattering of enough utility and magic to be useful outside of skills. Chameleon is NOT a skill monkey but rather a wildcard that can take on different class ROLES. A chameleon does not get enough skill points to make being a skill monkey practical. It can fake it in the same way a chameleon can fake many things, but you will be lacking the shear skill variety you will find in a factotum.

Factotum builds on itself. If you want to play a factotum you should really do factotum 20. It's class features are not designed to play well with one another.

Chameleon, on the other hand, tends to be best played from a spattering of classes.

Spellthief 1 / bard 2 / duskblade 3 is my favored. Master Spellthief grants you a casting in light armor for all your arcane casting and a CL 6 for bard and duskblade. Practiced spellcaster boosts this to 10 so you can access all the item crafting feats as needed with a CL boosting item or two. That sneak attack die allows for craven, IE always hitting decently hard while sneak attacking.

[Fizban]

Why would Factotum be a terrible entry for a Chameleon?
All their main abilities are tied to class level. The 1/day/skill boost? Class level. Arcane Dilettante? Class level, with an even slower progression than Bard spells. Opportunistic Piety? Class level again. And all inspiration abilities draw from the same small pool.

A Chameleon needs a strong set of base abilities to combine with their smattering of class emulation. Combat focus won't do you any good if you go in with 1/2 BAB and no combat feats. They have all bad saves. Their rage and evasion are usable, but their sneak attack emulation is even worse than the Factotum's, and that's saying something.

A 5th level Factotum has: one 2nd and one 1st level spell per day, a pool of healing far larger than one would expect, and a limit of four factotum things per combat. Only 3/4 BAB and ref save. At 8th level it's little better, with one 3rd and two 2nd level spells, and 3/5 inspiration points will always be spent on the killer Cunning Surge app-you've effectively delayed your all-important Chameleon casting by 3 levels just to quicken something 1/day.

The secret is that everyone taking Font of Inspiration x1000 is missing the point trying to make the class what it's not. The Factotum isn't supposed to fill multiple roles. It's not supposed to participate in sustained combat. It's the gadget guy, the class for the guy who's more interested in always participating just a little bit rather than picking one job, the guy who wants to solve his problems with traps and misdirection and money and anything but playing an actual class with prescribed solutions, the guy who's playing the abstract game rather than the wargame. It has just enough oomph to throw one wrench of somewhat level appropriate offense without committing to anything in particular, something to fall back on if the hijinks fail. Something to use at the opportune moment when your bag of tricks isn't cutting it.

Chameleon, on the other hand, is about actually taking on multiple roles (in a supplementary capacity) for the day. It needs a solid 5 level base with enough combat to match a fighter or barbarian, enough skills to match a rogue, and then ditch that build completely to get its variable casting on without falling apart. The best Chamelon entries are actually pretty simple, just combine your favorite dips into a 5 level build. Fighter 2, Barb 2, Monk 2, Ranger 2, Swash 1, Swash 3, Rogue 1, Rogue 3, Binder 1, Binder 3, Incarnate 1-2, Totemist 2, Ninja 2-3, Warlock 1, Martial Adept 1, and of course Cleric 1 if you feel like abusing domains. Assemble the class abilities you desire, weather constant or burst use or highly variable, and line it all up.

Sticking with Factotum is actually pretty comparable to Bard in terms of magic, as long as you stay in. Arcane Dilettante (4 spells) at 9th starts to get going, with one 3rd and three 2nd you've got some ammo, less than a Bard but with no known list or spellbook to worry about, next level at 10th you go up to one 4th and three 3rd, catching up on maximum spell level available, at 15th you get a step ahead on 6th level spells. At 17th you get a 7th level spell that Bards can't even cast, and while you don't have all those low level slots (that's what magic items are for), you have six 6th level spells which the Bard can barely match.

So my advice for Factotum is: play the class the way it's meant to be played. Get a bag full of abusively underpriced gadgets and leverage them for all they're worth, then punch people in the face with the perfect spell when they aren't expecting it.

[Segev]

A Chameleon build I've wanted to try for a while was actually Incarnate 3/Totemist 2/Chameleon 10. The reasoning here is that this combination gives a huge number of soulmelds each day, and the ability to swap them around complements the Chameleon's versatility well. Remake your specialty daily!

Assuming your base class(es) and/or Chameleon benefit from static increases to their level-equivalence, a Doppelganger minor bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#doppelganger) is a nice complement to the Chameleon, and has one bloodline level you'll take by level 12 (which will boost static level-based numbers for your base class(es) and your Chameleon class).

[Doctor Despair]

What does the Doppelganger minor bloodline offer the a different major bloodline wouldn't do better?

[bean illus]

I second factotum 8/chameleon. But ask your DM for a houserule: chameleon class features (except the floating feat) can be used for prereqs, because not allowing that castrates any progression you might take after chameleon is over with for no reason. Any other class can progress just fine, but chameleon can't, and all it does is ruin your chances to take viable options at high levels. Otherwise your only real options are ToB classes, and pigeonholing yourself like that when nobody else has to just isn't fun.

Also, I wouldn't take more than 3 iterations of Font of Inspiration unless you just don't have any feats you want to take; 6+ inspiration points per is easily enough to get along with for most encounters, especially if a good chunk of your build is factotum.
I would allow a houserule that finishing Chameleon allowed it to qualify as a pre req. I also have built facto with 2-3 FoI to save feats.


If his DM allows chameleon to qualify for other classes and comes up with additional spell progressions beyond 10th (for casting progression PrCs), he could always go something like factotum 3 (for skill boosting with Able Learner)/dungeon crasher fighter 2 (for laying the smack down)/chameleon 10/dweomerkeeper 4 (for supernatural spell 1/day)/swordsage 1 (for the high level maneuvers).

That'd be fun, right?
Badass.

To the OP; I have played the factomeleon tripper crafter, and though it sags a bit in the middle it's fun. It's a puzzle solver/role play build, with lot's of intrigue possibilities, but there are stronger class combinations.

I think some people underestimate Facto 3. In level one Cunning Insight can be exploited as Int bonus to Ability Damage, and i think that's pertinent all the way to high level play.
Cunning Knowledge, though only +3 at 3rd level, can be exploited during opposed skill check, again all the way through the game.

At 2nd Arcane Dilettante, which at 3rd equals any 1st level Wiz spell in the game. Not great but you will always find a use for it, nearly every session.

At third is Brains over Brawn. The 'need' to make the facto MAD partially shades this gem. The free action, no Inspiration cost, Int to Str/Dex skills and checks is used forever. In one level an Int maxed Facto 3 acquires 72 skill points and if you add the Chameleon Aptitude boon you get 36 more. As well, you get an un-named modifier to Initiative and Trip attempts (these stack with Imp Init and Imp Trip iirc). At some optimization level that's 20+5+6+5 = 36, for + 13 before Imp Trip. These also stack with Str/Int, so if you find a way to exploit those with magic/size/etc then you might find another +9+ before your weapon modifier/etc.
That's right, you might find a +30 to trip, with a custom magic item of destruction, where you always go first, and get near infinite AoO. It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.

Yes it can be 'optimized', but how is a question that's been asked before. If you can get the DM to allow the crafting time then the floating feat can be greatly exploited into custom magic items, and that's just not fair. But what else?

If there was a large size. That way when your custom magic item increases your size you will be huge. Is there a way to get a Large Grey Elf? Consider taking Facto3/Chameleon7 and have 10 levels to cheese through some power class/prc combo for an almost gestalt 20th level. ?

[Jack_Simth]

Under "Class Features": You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.Sure, you can't qualify based on those. Nothing says you can't advance them, however. So, for instance, a Factotum-5/Chameleon-10/Ruathar-3 could cast as a Chameleon-13 (CL 26, but only 6th level spells, by my reading of the rules).

Likewise, something like a Factotum-5/Chameleon-10/Acrolyte of the Skin-5 could work... or Blood Magus, or ....

[Deophaun]

I think some people underestimate Facto 3. In level one Cunning Insight can be exploited as Int bonus to Ability Damage, and i think that's pertinent all the way to high level play.
It might, but definitely not with the easy ones you have ready access to, like ray of stupidity or shivering touch, where that Int bonus just becomes negative energy damage. Not sure how it works with poisons or ToB maneuvers, though.

And that +3 Cunning Knowledge is gilding the lily when you can toss out CL20 improvisations, which makes spending a whole level on it questionable.

[Stealth Marmot]

At third is Brains over Brawn. The 'need' to make the facto MAD partially shades this gem. The free action, no Inspiration cost, Int to Str/Dex skills and checks is used forever. In one level an Int maxed Facto 3 acquires 72 skill points and if you add the Chameleon Aptitude boon you get 36 more. As well, you get an un-named modifier to Initiative and Trip attempts (these stack with Imp Init and Imp Trip iirc). At some optimization level that's 20+5+6+5 = 36, for + 13 before Imp Trip. These also stack with Str/Int, so if you find a way to exploit those with magic/size/etc then you might find another +9+ before your weapon modifier/etc.
That's right, you might find a +30 to trip, with a custom magic item of destruction, where you always go first, and get near infinite AoO. It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.


Oh I am completely aware of the whole tripping thing. We're starting at 3rd level and I'm going human, 3 feats total, and I'm possibly going with Combat Expertise, Improved trip, and Knowledge Devotion. I am putting 5 ranks in knowledge (religion) to get the inevitable bonus to turning undead (we don't have a cleric) and 1 rank in the other 5 knowledges used for identifying creatures, and the collector of stories skill trick, so with Knowledge Devotion I am guaranteed a +1 to hit and damage, and probably getting a +2 or even a +3.



If there was a large size. That way when your custom magic item increases your size you will be huge. Is there a way to get a Large Grey Elf? Consider taking Facto3/Chameleon7 and have 10 levels to cheese through some power class/prc combo for an almost gestalt 20th level. ?
Oh I already thought about getting a larger size for the bonus to trip. Enlarge person is a first level arcane spell and I can get that using Arcane Dilettante.

I was considering building a whole, well BUILD over this tripping deal, getting myself a Guisarme and using enlarge person, then getting Combat Reflexes and basically anyone trying to get close to me will be tripped and subsequently attacked, stopping anyone from getting close enough to melee me while I could melee them. Tripping is an attack action so you can use it as an attack of opportunity, and A large creature with a large Guisarme threatens areas both 15 and 20 feet away. With Combat Reflexes allowing me to take extra attacks of opportunity per turn, the potential for battlefield control is immense.

That said, I'm still mulling that option over. Knowledge Devotion is a given, but I'm also considering if taking 2 feats of Font of Inpiration wouldn't be MORE useful. Doing so would allow me to be a lot more cavalier with my inspiration points in combat, especially when it comes to keeping my AC up. Tripping is a good tactic, but a lot of creatures will be resistant. I need only face a quadripedal large creature to lose most of my advantage on the roll, and some creatures fly or are immune to tripping. I can't trip an ooze. Also, enlarging myself makes me a target (My AC drops by 2, 1 for size, 1 for loss of dex, and I can only wear light armor.) Then again I also am getting Combat Expertise, which means I could take a hit on my attack rolls (Which I don't need that high for a trip attempt, and the subsequent attack would be against a prone target)

The group is a wizard, rogue, duskblade, and my factotum. Yes, I realize we don't have a healer. I actually am making sure to get the healing hands skill trick because of this.

The thing is, I have played in a game with that exact Duskblade before, and the character is a pretty heavy hitter in melee combat. What's more, the character uses a maneuver that knocks enemies prone anyway by means of teleporting them 10 feet directly in the air. (Attack, hit, no save teleport from the spell which moves them 10 feet straight in the air, they fall, land prone, and because they were technically MOVING when falling through a threatened square, they provoke an attack of opportunity. Oh and they take d6 fall damage on top and fall prone due to the fall.) I can't remember what that ability is called, but in our games it may as well be a Duskblade standard.

So I'm wondering if getting 3 more points of inspiration per encounter is better than tripping, considering that literally doubles my use per encounter at this level.

Decisions, decisions.

[Crake]

I'm personally a fan of Factotum 3/wizard 1/cleric 1, that will give you: int to damage, +3 to skills 1/day, int to str/dex skills, int to saves, and int to attacks. Since chameleon arcane casting is int based, it gives you a lot of good synergy, and while you don't have many inspiration points, that just means you need to use them sparingly each encounter.

Additionally, wizard 1 can give you access to a whole slew of options, including my favourite for chameleons: eidetic spellcaster. Cleric 1 is just always awesome (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0).

I would recommend taking practised spellcaster for either wizard or cleric as well, to help meet CL pre-requisites for things like item crafting and extra spell for adding spells to your eidetic spellbook. Note that the whole "one level lower than you can cast" part of that feat is not a pre-requisite, so it can be applied to chameleon without issue.

[Segev]

What does the Doppelganger minor bloodline offer the a different major bloodline wouldn't do better?

Mainly, it (a) fits a "chameleon" concept better than any of the others, and (b) doesn't require taking a bloodline level before you actually get into the Chameleon PrC.

[danielxcutter]

Once someone suggested a Rogue 1/Incarnate 2/Totemist 2 for Chameleon to me, because the front-loaded Incarnum classes mesh well with the rear-loaded Chameleon and you can qualify for Craven.

[bean illus]

Oh I am completely aware of the whole tripping thing.

Oh I already thought about getting a larger size for the bonus to trip. Enlarge person is a first level arcane spell and I can get that using Arcane Dilettante.

I was considering building a whole, well BUILD over this tripping deal,...

Tripping is a good tactic, but a lot of creatures will be resistant. I need only face a quadripedal large creature to lose most of my advantage on the roll, and some creatures fly or are immune to tripping.

So I'm wondering if getting 3 more points of inspiration per encounter is better than tripping, considering that literally doubles my use per encounter at this level.

Decisions, decisions.

My point about wishing to start with a large size is, when you enlarge you would enlarge even more. As far as quadruped; you will have polymorph or some thing eventually, and you will be quadruped also. So in the middle that will likely happen, but by then you should have some other options.

I would split the FoI cost, and even though it will come slow, get one soonish, so your next one is worth it. As for the 'extra Insp at this level'; to do what? BoB is free, and the others are situational.

Also, i have to agree, you could get huge mileage out of Cloistered Cleric 1, especially if there is no other healer.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Once someone suggested a Rogue 1/Incarnate 2/Totemist 2 for Chameleon to me, because the front-loaded Incarnum classes mesh well with the rear-loaded Chameleon and you can qualify for Craven.
I discussed that with one potential DM; he said that he'd just introduce me as a new character each day and let the other players wonder why I was allowed to keep re-rolling characters.

[Stealth Marmot]

I would split the FoI cost, and even though it will come slow, get one soonish, so your next one is worth it. As for the 'extra Insp at this level'; to do what? BoB is free, and the others are situational.


I'll grab it at 6th level, then 9th level, then 12th, then that should be enough. Sucks that it takes up all my feat slots, but I'll have so many damned class abilities that I don't need them as much.

I'm going to ask the DM about equipment availability when we do rolling on Sunday, it is possible I might switch it up and ditch tripping overall depending on whether I will actually be able to get a guisarme any time soon.

[bean illus]

I'll grab it at 6th level, then 9th level, then 12th, then that should be enough. Sucks that it takes up all my feat slots, but I'll have so many damned class abilities that I don't need them as much.

I'm going to ask the DM about equipment availability when we do rolling on Sunday, it is possible I might switch it up and ditch tripping overall depending on whether I will actually be able to get a guisarme any time soon.

Do you have an idea what actual levels you hope to play through? and if the dm has actually ever managed a long campaign? It really is a bit pertinent. I would look at the build more with you, but it's easier with more info. Keep us posted.

[Stealth Marmot]

Character creation finished and holy CRAP did I luck out.

No joke, My DM actually runs with the rules that when rolling stats you reroll 1s ONCE, but that never actually came into play until I got to the 7th Stat, and even then the reroll was a 1 I didnt use anyway.

So I naturally, even using 3.5 core rules on 4d6 drop lowest, got the following stats:

18, 17, 16, 15, 15, 14.

The 7th stat was for appearance and I got a 15. (Cant swap out appearance, not that I needed to)

I went with:

Str 16
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 15
Cha 15

App 15

We are starting at 3rd level, and we did central casting, which brings a backstory into play which can add some bonuses or ranks.

From that I got 2 ranks in Survival and Weapon Focus (club) for free. The club one might come into play seeing as we are going to start off as gladiators and need to escape the gladiator pits.

Here are my choices for feats and skills:

Feats: Knowledge Devotion, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip

Skill Tricks: Healing Hands, Collector of Stories

Languages: Common, Dwarven, Gnomish, Elven, Draconic, Orc, Goblin (2 ranks used on languages)

Skills (Total bonus): Balance +9*, Bluff +7, Decipher Script +5, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +5, Disguise +7(+9), Escape Artist +7*, Heal +7, Hide +8, Intimidate +4*, Jump +9*, Knowledge (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, The Planes) +5, Knowledge (Nature) +7, Knowledge (Religion) +9, Listen +3, Move Silently +8, Open Lock +8, Ride +7*, Search +5, Sense Motive +7, Sleight of Hand +8, Spellcraft +5, Spot +3, Survival +8, Swim +7*, Tumble +13, Use Magic Device +8, Use Rope +7*

*No ranks/not trained

I also rolled a total of 26 total hit points including con bonus.

Point of note: I only invested a few ranks in arcana skills because we have a wizard, and only a few ranks in disable device and stealth because we have a dedicated rogue. I did put a rank into these skills though in order to serve as a backup or as an aid another.

We don't use Lord of Madness so I'm not going to invest too much into intimidate.

Our group duskblade appears to be an archer mainly, so I will likely be on the front line. Good thing I took Combat expertise to give myself some AC bonuses. I might go sword and board to give myself some extra AC as well. Between a chain shirt and a heavy steel shield, my AC would be 19 without magic, 23 when using cunning defense. 20 and 24 next level when I up my dex.