Two-Handed or One-handed and shield

[DarthPenance]

Well, up until now I have been the party meat shield, since there were no other who were made for such a thing or wanted to, and thus my fighter used a shield for higher ac but the lowest damage while the others nuked the opponents. However recently a new member joined and he is a paladin with duelist style, so he will use a shield, also I'm almost at lvl 5, (6300 exp), and so, by my calculations, I could deal the highest amount of damage of the team with action surge if I use a greatsword (8d6 + 20) if all attacks connect ( they usually do). This is my first time playing a fighter and if it's possible I'd like to learn if there is any style that is possibly better for my party than the other.
The party consists of a swashblucker rogue (was/is our main damage dealer) an open palm monk ( helps with advantage) a warlock ( for magic and imp) and now a paladin ( he is more tanky than me with higher con than str or cha)
Stats:
Lvl 4 Champion
20/16/16/8/12/10
Ac: 20 (half plate + defense style + shield)
44 Hp
Thanks for reading and sorry if it's messy

[GlenSmash!]

Greatsword is pretty solid on a Champion. And since Champs pick up another fighting style at level 11 you can still grab GWF. If your table uses feats, GWM is a great one. You'll do a lot of damage and still be solidly tanky even without the shield.

[coredump]

Being Champion, I would be tempted to go Greataxe instead of Greatsword.

[MeeposFire]

Being Champion, I would be tempted to go Greataxe instead of Greatsword.

I am curious on why that is since as far as i can tell he is not a half orc or multiclassing barbarian so the great axe has no benefit over the great sword and the sword gets more of a benefit from the fighting style.

[Jarlhen]

I am curious on why that is since as far as i can tell he is not a half orc or multiclassing barbarian so the great axe has no benefit over the great sword and the sword gets more of a benefit from the fighting style.

Because you crit more. And when you crit you add 1 die, not 2. So you add 1d12 over 1d6.

[Foxhound438]

Because you crit more. And when you crit you add 1 die, not 2. So you add 1d12 over 1d6.

I would recommend you re-read the rule on critical hits, because you're definitely wrong here.

[Jarlhen]

I would recommend you re-read the rule on critical hits, because you're definitely wrong here.

You're absolutely right, I am dead wrong. We homebrew it and I forgot those aren't the official rules. We run almost everything by RAW but we max critical damage and add just 1 damage die. My apologies.

[djreynolds]

Well, up until now I have been the party meat shield, since there were no other who were made for such a thing or wanted to, and thus my fighter used a shield for higher ac but the lowest damage while the others nuked the opponents. However recently a new member joined and he is a paladin with duelist style, so he will use a shield, also I'm almost at lvl 5, (6300 exp), and so, by my calculations, I could deal the highest amount of damage of the team with action surge if I use a greatsword (8d6 + 20) if all attacks connect ( they usually do). This is my first time playing a fighter and if it's possible I'd like to learn if there is any style that is possibly better for my party than the other.
The party consists of a swashblucker rogue (was/is our main damage dealer) an open palm monk ( helps with advantage) a warlock ( for magic and imp) and now a paladin ( he is more tanky than me with higher con than str or cha)
Stats:
Lvl 4 Champion
20/16/16/8/12/10
Ac: 20 (half plate + defense style + shield)
44 Hp
Thanks for reading and sorry if it's messy

Well for me, you have a 16 in dex, one level of rogue coupled with expertise in athletics and shield master, down they go and you all get advantage now, thus increasing your chances to just land hits and the possibility of critical hits. And shield master gives you evasion.

Please select at some point resilient wisdom, I know the paladin is nearby and has plenty of auras but then you are glued to him in melee after 6th level.. which ain't bad but paladins love to charge ahead into danger.

[DarthPenance]

I'm sorry I forgot to mention but my character is Vuman and has the Healer feat (there were no healers), however we're allowing a max of 1 feat per person, so if I were to pick another I'd give on this one, the healer feat saved our party a lot of times before so for now I'll keep it.
As for multiclassing, the DM doesn't like it but he said if it made sense RP wise he'd allow it, the problem being my character is a Lawful Good honorful person, so I don't know how to make multiclassing rogue something he'd do.
Thanks for replying, for now I'll keep the greatsword until I action surge, then switch to shield (it takes 1 action, correct?)

[djreynolds]

Rogues are no longer bound by alignment and you can pick rogue skills that are not thieves tools and stealth. You could pick persuasion or even medicine.

Your paladin has the potential to be a very good healer and debuffer.

I like to think of a rogue a striker, and your champion is just picking up some training to augment his abilities.

Also since you are in half plate, medium armor, barbarian who can be lawful good at second level can attack with reckless attack and with advantage, making feats like GWM easier to use and increasing chances of landing critical hits.

My first make of a samurai was with the barbarian and I refluffed his rage as his code of Bushido.

Yes it one hole action to switch, also to consider is your very high dexterity coupled with improved critical for all weapons makes grabbing archery style at 10th level... an idea. It adds +2 to hit which makes that 16 dexterity look like a 20. And you spike your great sword into the ground, fire an arrow and then go melee.

Enjoy, I played 4 champions so far and they are lots of fun and remember you can give up an attack at 5th and on, to topple someone over or disarm them and then attack.

[MeeposFire]

You're absolutely right, I am dead wrong. We homebrew it and I forgot those aren't the official rules. We run almost everything by RAW but we max critical damage and add just 1 damage die. My apologies.

However you would be correct if this was a barbarian or half orc because they do have abilities that work that way hence why I mentioned them in my response.

[ApplePen]

The +2 AC from a shield is really unimportant if you already have Defensive. If you really want to maximize your AC you'd have gone Eldritch Knight and taken the Shield spell.

Champion fighter is really good at DPS, and that's best served with a two handed weapon.

[coredump]

I am curious on why that is since as far as i can tell he is not a half orc or multiclassing barbarian so the great axe has no benefit over the great sword and the sword gets more of a benefit from the fighting style.

Because my brain seized up for a minute..... it makes no sense.

[Sir cryosin]

Go great sword but drop hints to the DM that you would like a animated shield.

[DarthPenance]

Go great sword but drop hints to the DM that you would like a animated shield.
Animated shield? I'm sorry but I don't know what that is. It'd be helpful if you could enlighten me.


The +2 AC from a shield is really unimportant if you already have Defensive. If you really want to maximize your AC you'd have gone Eldritch Knight and taken the Shield spell.

Champion fighter is really good at DPS, and that's best served with a two handed weapon.
My previous games I have played full casters (2 wizards, 1 cleric and 1 bard), so I didn't want eldritch knight, also low int.


Rogues are no longer bound by alignment and you can pick rogue skills that are not thieves tools and stealth. You could pick persuasion or even medicine.

Your paladin has the potential to be a very good healer and debuffer.

I like to think of a rogue a striker, and your champion is just picking up some training to augment his abilities.

Also since you are in half plate, medium armor, barbarian who can be lawful good at second level can attack with reckless attack and with advantage, making feats like GWM easier to use and increasing chances of landing critical hits.

My first make of a samurai was with the barbarian and I refluffed his rage as his code of Bushido.

Yes it one hole action to switch, also to consider is your very high dexterity coupled with improved critical for all weapons makes grabbing archery style at 10th level... an idea. It adds +2 to hit which makes that 16 dexterity look like a 20. And you spike your great sword into the ground, fire an arrow and then go melee.

Enjoy, I played 4 champions so far and they are lots of fun and remember you can give up an attack at 5th and on, to topple someone over or disarm them and then attack.

I see, thanks, I know from guides that the archery fighting style is very powerful, but my character is a front liner and he only uses ranged weapons when he can't reach the enemies. So I don't know if it would be wise to take it.
The paladin player isn't the type to support and heal, more of a front liner.
I'm sorry but I don't understand the part of barbarian.
Could I ask you some questions about champions then?

[Sir cryosin]

It a magic shield that floats around you. giving you the shield bonus but frees up you other hand so you can use greatsword.

[DarthPenance]

It a magic shield that floats around you. giving you the shield bonus but frees up you other hand so you can use greatsword.

It's an official magic item, correct? Could you put it's page and rarity so I could see if I could acess it.

[Willie the Duck]

That is very rare, requires attunement, takes your first bonus action, and lasts for 10 rounds. It is awesome, but I would not plan my character around it.

To the OP-given that you can only have 1 feat, and have already taken it, this becomes an interesting choice. In general, I think that two-handed fighting (as opposed to sword and board) really comes into its' own when you can take all of the cool feats (and fighter options) that up the damage (or utility, for polearm 2 handed fighting). However, I would only do sword and board if I were creating a new character or reaching level 11 with your champion, as the dueling fighting style really helps out the one-hander.

[BW022]

DarthPenance,

You can't rely on others 'tanking' if you are up front in melee. The idea of a tank is that they (and only they) remain up front and that they take all the attacks. They are so hard to hit or have abilities to reduced/negate damage that you want all the attacks going at them. The other party members should be staying back -- either with ranged, spells, or tactics such as disengage to do damage. If someone is tanking, you only want to enter melee if your tank can't block everyone or they are disabled or low on hit points.

If you stand next to a tank and start melee attacking whatever they are tanking... presumably that creature could easily decide to just attack you. Many creatures will quickly ignore a 'tank' if they can get at a creature easier to hit and/or they'll always attack the creature in reach who is the largest threat. Worst case, they completely ignore the tank and just go at you. Without a shield (depending upon your levels) that could mean getting hit 50%-100% more often and taking a lot more damage. This means more healing, healers having to heal you rather than adding to damage, you possibility having to use resources to stay in the fight.

My recommendation... if you are going melee damage and you have someone who is tanking... use a reach weapon. Damage is only slightly less, but it often forces enemies to continue fighting the tank and/or drawing opportunity attacks if they try breaking off. If you take polearm mastery... you can really make it painful for creatures to break off the tank. Also remember to move... move attack from 10' away, and then move away.

[Foxhound438]

You're absolutely right, I am dead wrong. We homebrew it and I forgot those aren't the official rules. We run almost everything by RAW but we max critical damage and add just 1 damage die. My apologies.

That's understandable. Definitely would do a lot more good with a greataxe in that case.

[Foxhound438]

I'm sorry I forgot to mention but my character is Vuman and has the Healer feat (there were no healers), however we're allowing a max of 1 feat per person, so if I were to pick another I'd give on this one, the healer feat saved our party a lot of times before so for now I'll keep it.
As for multiclassing, the DM doesn't like it but he said if it made sense RP wise he'd allow it, the problem being my character is a Lawful Good honorful person, so I don't know how to make multiclassing rogue something he'd do.
Thanks for replying, for now I'll keep the greatsword until I action surge, then switch to shield (it takes 1 action, correct?)

Personally I'd stick to the shield plan, since the ac boost gets increasingly more relevant at higher AC values. Plus, when you get your second style, the longsword isn't far behind the greatsword in damage.

[DarthPenance]

DarthPenance,

You can't rely on others 'tanking' if you are up front in melee. The idea of a tank is that they (and only they) remain up front and that they take all the attacks. They are so hard to hit or have abilities to reduced/negate damage that you want all the attacks going at them. The other party members should be staying back -- either with ranged, spells, or tactics such as disengage to do damage. If someone is tanking, you only want to enter melee if your tank can't block everyone or they are disabled or low on hit points.

If you stand next to a tank and start melee attacking whatever they are tanking... presumably that creature could easily decide to just attack you. Many creatures will quickly ignore a 'tank' if they can get at a creature easier to hit and/or they'll always attack the creature in reach who is the largest threat. Worst case, they completely ignore the tank and just go at you. Without a shield (depending upon your levels) that could mean getting hit 50%-100% more often and taking a lot more damage. This means more healing, healers having to heal you rather than adding to damage, you possibility having to use resources to stay in the fight.

My recommendation... if you are going melee damage and you have someone who is tanking... use a reach weapon. Damage is only slightly less, but it often forces enemies to continue fighting the tank and/or drawing opportunity attacks if they try breaking off. If you take polearm mastery... you can really make it painful for creatures to break off the tank. Also remember to move... move attack from 10' away, and then move away.

I apologize, what I meant by tanking I meant eating damage/turns of the enemy, as in, making my teamates not take damage, not as blocking the path. For example:
We 4 were fighting an Oni as the final boss of a quest, lvl 3, the DM used a heart that was the source of his regeneration, so I went and started dueling the Oni by myself so the others could kill the heart (we saw it giving it regeneration), thanks to bad rolls they managed to kill the heart after 5 turns, where I took his cone of cold, two attacks and another spell until he used hold person, then, almost dying from 1 attack from him each, they manage to kill it. In this sceario my "tanking" was more like being a meat shield, what I usually did until the paladin arrived.
Also we had no healers, I made a pseudo one using the fighters heal and the healer kit.
I have a reach weapon, but I only used it once, against a monster that was too big to pass the door, but I will see how it does, thanks for the recommendation.

Personally I'd stick to the shield plan, since the ac boost gets increasingly more relevant at higher AC values. Plus, when you get your second style, the longsword isn't far behind the greatsword in damage.

Well, I will probably stick to the greatsword for now, it is silvered and the longsword isn't, we didn't have a lot of money.

[CaptainSarathai]

I apologize, what I meant by tanking I meant eating damage/turns of the enemy, as in, making my teamates not take damage, not as blocking the path. For example:
We 4 were fighting an Oni as the final boss of a quest, lvl 3, the DM used a heart that was the source of his regeneration, so I went and started dueling the Oni by myself so the others could kill the heart (we saw it giving it regeneration), thanks to bad rolls they managed to kill the heart after 5 turns, where I took his cone of cold, two attacks and another spell until he used hold person, then, almost dying from 1 attack from him each, they manage to kill it. In this sceario my "tanking" was more like being a meat shield, what I usually did until the paladin arrived.


That scenario is a really bad example, though. If the Oni knew that its heart was the source of its power, then why didn't it just leave you alone and go slaughter your party members? It took you 5 rounds going solo, and they still had to help you finish it off; that Oni shouldn't have been afraid of a little Opportunity Attack.

There really are very, very few true 'tank' options in 5e, and strangely, the Fighter doesn't get many at all. The Paladin can run Oath of the Crown, and take damage for allies, use spells like Compelled Duel, and so on. The Bard gets Cutting Words and Vicious Mockery.
Had you gone Battle Master, you could use Goading Strike. If you had taken Defender style you could have don't a little tanking by enforcing Disadvantage if the enemy attacked your adjacent friends.

By far, the best ability for a tank is probably the Sentinel feat. In your example above, if you had brought Sentinel to the table, once that Oni started hitting you, it could not move away from you, because every time it ate an Opportunity Attack, it would stop moving.

If you cannot get the Sentinel Feat, and missed the opportunity to run as a BattleMaster, then I'd stick with a big sword and just go for maxing out your damage. I would, however, pass the "how to tank" information on to your new Paladin friend.

[Temperjoke]

I'd go with the 2-handed weapon as your initial weapon, now that you have an additional damage-absorber out in front with you. If circumstances change, switching back to the sword and board if circumstances change, like you get additional enemies in battle, or you have a chance to pick up the additional fighting style.

[djreynolds]

I see, thanks, I know from guides that the archery fighting style is very powerful, but my character is a front liner and he only uses ranged weapons when he can't reach the enemies. So I don't know if it would be wise to take it.
The paladin player isn't the type to support and heal, more of a front liner.
I'm sorry but I don't understand the part of barbarian.
Could I ask you some questions about champions then?

I just want to provide you with options, for instance, one champion I played we rolled stats. He had a high dex and strength and I was able to use both the bow and maul with to great effect. So I took GWM and SS

But if it is your want to specialize in melee with a greatsword.

Consider most advice is based on players using the 15/14/13/12/10/8 or standard array, but you rolled very well--20/16/16/8/12/10

1 You took defensive style, so right now you can use any weapon and benefit from this AC increase

2. Your dexterity is atypical, 16. So I suggest putting it to use, you have the stats to grab medium armor master. Now you can stealth with the monk and rogue in half-plate and your AC is 19 with MAM and defensive style (15 +3 +1), same as plate armor and defensive style. Add a shield its AC 21.

3. Because of your improved critical I suggest GWM as it offers a bonus attack everytime you score a critical hit in melee. This first part of the feat isn't concerned with the melee weapon, only second part of the feat specifies the use of a heavy weapon

4. You already have a 20 in strength, +5 to hit and the paladin can cast bless +1d4 to hit, so landing GWM for an extra +10 damage should be easy at 4th level-- here is where that greatsword will really shine... in blood

5. Unless you are going to stay on the paladin's hip for his 6th level Aura of protection, resilient wisdom is a feat you should consider to shore up your wisdom saves

6. I like the lucky feat, alert provides immunity to surprise attacks and an increase in initiative, max out con.

7. I got to play 2 high level champions, survivor at 18th level is simply awesome

8. With these stats I would've suggested a dip in barbarian but since you have defensive style it would be wasted on the barbarian's unarmored defense, but reckless attack is great for a champion and you can rage in medium armor.

Good luck

[Gort]

The +2 AC from a shield is really unimportant if you already have Defensive. If you really want to maximize your AC you'd have gone Eldritch Knight and taken the Shield spell.

Champion fighter is really good at DPS, and that's best served with a two handed weapon.


Please realise that at moderate character levels you will likely have a magic shield. That +2 bonus will be +3 or more before too long.
It stacks with magic armour and the defensive fighting style. An AC in the low 20s is quite achievable and very desirable. It only starts to be a waste if you get it to AC30 - which I haven't seen yet.

Personally I feel the main role of a fighter is to stand in front and be able to stay there. Damage output is important but so is resilience. I would recommend sword and board with the Duelling fighting style. You are losing 5% in damage output but you could be adding 30% to your durability.

At least one PC needs to be a hard nut to crack in melee.

As suggested an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster with a Shield spell can be very tough for a few rounds. But sword and board is better if you have long adventuring days.

[djreynolds]

Please realise that at moderate character levels you will likely have a magic shield. That +2 bonus will be +3 or more before too long.
It stacks with magic armour and the defensive fighting style. An AC in the low 20s is quite achievable and very desirable. It only starts to be a waste if you get it to AC30 - which I haven't seen yet.

Personally I feel the main role of a fighter is to stand in front and be able to stay there. Damage output is important but so is resilience. I would recommend sword and board with the Duelling fighting style. You are losing 5% in damage output but you could be adding 30% to your durability.

At least one PC needs to be a hard nut to crack in melee.

As suggested an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster with a Shield spell can be very tough for a few rounds. But sword and board is better if you have long adventuring days.

Excellent advice, very good insights

Also a champion makes a great tank but really at 18th level.

For me a tank isn't just a tough nut to crack. With High AC

1. High AC-paladins and fighters and clerics

2. Enough HP or damage mitigation or healing (could be team mate provided) to eat up resources--and one reason is like a barbarian with rage and a rogue with uncanny dodge and the champion at 18th eat up resources

Imagine fighting a paladin, if they keep missing you.. that ain't losing an smites and in time will just turn on a weaker opponent, so yes you need high AC... but you still want to get hit otherwise they will just leave you alone and find that silly bard and his guitar

3. A reason to attack you.. you have to lay down some hurt

4. You need good saves in at least IMO very humbly wisdom and con, dex and charisma are nice but they are bonuses and shield master will help out with dex saves

[Gignere]

I just want to provide you with options, for instance, one champion I played we rolled stats. He had a high dex and strength and I was able to use both the bow and maul with to great effect. So I took GWM and SS

But if it is your want to specialize in melee with a greatsword.

Consider most advice is based on players using the 15/14/13/12/10/8 or standard array, but you rolled very well--20/16/16/8/12/10

1 You took defensive style, so right now you can use any weapon and benefit from this AC increase

2. Your dexterity is atypical, 16. So I suggest putting it to use, you have the stats to grab medium armor master. Now you can stealth with the monk and rogue in half-plate and your AC is 19 with MAM and defensive style (15 +3 +1), same as plate armor and defensive style. Add a shield its AC 21.

3. Because of your improved critical I suggest GWM as it offers a bonus attack everytime you score a critical hit in melee. This first part of the feat isn't concerned with the melee weapon, only second part of the feat specifies the use of a heavy weapon

4. You already have a 20 in strength, +5 to hit and the paladin can cast bless +1d4 to hit, so landing GWM for an extra +10 damage should be easy at 4th level-- here is where that greatsword will really shine... in blood

5. Unless you are going to stay on the paladin's hip for his 6th level Aura of protection, resilient wisdom is a feat you should consider to shore up your wisdom saves

6. I like the lucky feat, alert provides immunity to surprise attacks and an increase in initiative, max out con.

7. I got to play 2 high level champions, survivor at 18th level is simply awesome

8. With these stats I would've suggested a dip in barbarian but since you have defensive style it would be wasted on the barbarian's unarmored defense, but reckless attack is great for a champion and you can rage in medium armor.

Good luck

Great advice except the OP is limited to one feat which he/she has picked already.