Looking to make a skill monkey will spell utility and combat staying power.

[Reprimand]

I wanted to make a build that can adapt to multiple situations without being necessarily optimal/game breaking but also not being weak. I'm not worried about get 9th level spells or being able to outfight most warriors but just something that has enough utility to pull through in most situations.

1. I do not want a full caster, I do not care about 9th level spells I want to play at maybe a tier 4/3/2 level max in end game.

2. I don't want to break the game. Smart tricks/strats/combos > infinites/loops

3. I want to retain a skill monkey/utility focus.

5. I want to stay around this build maybe with minor changes: Human Poison use(drow of the underdark)/Penetrating Strike(Dungeonscape) rogue 4/Generalist Wiz 1/Unseen Seer 10/Abjurant Champion 5

6. I plan to take feats like able learner/combat expertise/practiced spellcaster/Knowledge Devotion and maybe TWF feats and still spell and item crafting feats.

7. I put very high value on knowledge skills and social skills in game because my DM rewards them a lot. I'd like to invest in these as much as possible.

Point buy is 30. My stats are: Str:12 Dex:14 Con:12 Int:14 Wis:12 Cha: 14

What can I do to improve this character without super drastic changes.

What would be some good spells for someone focused on staying back in combat (until I get greater invisibility) or good utility spells like telepathic bond. web. grease. gaseous form. Illusions. etc.

Magic Item Choices would be welcome as well assume average WBL

[Rebel7284]

First of all, that's a reasonably good build for what you want to do. With that said, here are some things to consider:
- Possibly use Spellthief instead of Rogue. While it complicates your skills slightly, being able to leave your opponent partially depleted of spells is really useful. Also, Master Spellthief feat would allow you to cast in armor without having to go out of your way to get 0 spell failure armor.
- I am a big fan of replacing one of the Rogue levels with Hit-and-Run variant Fighter. Dex to damage against flat footed opponents is nice. If you want to stay Invisible a bunch, you are likely going to leave many opponents flat footed. Also an extra feat OR extra die of Sneak Attack is never amiss.
- If you get into the late game, you're going to be tier 1. High level wizard spells are just that flexible/strong, even 4 levels behind.

Some feat ideas:
Craven
Darkstalker
Extend Spell
Practiced Spellcaster

Some spell ideas:
Wraithstrike (Extended if possible)
Blockade
Alter Self
Ray of Stupidity
Hunter's Eye (Extended if possible, from advanced learning)
you already mentioned Grease

Also, if you want knowledge devotion AND a focus on skills AND considering your casting, I would boost your int score at least to 16 if at all possible. Your Wisdom and Charisma can wait...
Alternatively, if 16 is impossible, at least swap Charisma and Constitution. 1 Extra HP/HD adds up.

[Reprimand]

First of all, that's a reasonably good build for what you want to do. With that said, here are some things to consider:
- Possibly use Spellthief instead of Rogue. While it complicates your skills slightly, being able to leave your opponent partially depleted of spells is really useful. Also, Master Spellthief feat would allow you to cast in armor without having to go out of your way to get 0 spell failure armor.
- I am a big fan of replacing one of the Rogue levels with Hit-and-Run variant Fighter. Dex to damage against flat footed opponents is nice. If you want to stay Invisible a bunch, you are likely going to leave many opponents flat footed. Also an extra feat OR extra die of Sneak Attack is never amiss.
- If you get into the late game, you're going to be tier 1. High level wizard spells are just that flexible/strong, even 4 levels behind.

Some feat ideas:
Craven
Darkstalker
Extend Spell
Practiced Spellcaster

Some spell ideas:
Wraithstrike (Extended if possible)
Blockade
Alter Self
Ray of Stupidity
Hunter's Eye (Extended if possible, from advanced learning)
you already mentioned Grease

Also, if you want knowledge devotion AND a focus on skills AND considering your casting, I would boost your int score at least to 16 if at all possible. Your Wisdom and Charisma can wait...
Alternatively, if 16 is impossible, at least swap Charisma and Constitution. 1 Extra HP/HD adds up.

I'm personally more of a fan of rogue over spellthief mostly for the skill points and access to alternate class features I'm not too worried about armor anyway if I'm in a prolonged combat encounter chances are something has already gone terribly wrong.

What do you think of 10 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 15(16@lvl 4) int, 10 wis, 14 cha? Or would 10 str 14 dex 14 con 16 int 10 wis and 12 cha be better?

I was considering darkstalker for later levels but I'll probably end up taking it just because its so strong. I'm definitely taking practiced spellcaster though those extra caster levels are so useful.

Where are wraithstrike, hunter's eye, blockade and ray of stupidity from? I'm assuming spell compendium.

Would I honestly be tier 1? I thought the lack of level 9 spells would knock me down quite a bit though I suppose it's very versatile without them.

[gorfnab]

5. I want to stay around this build maybe with minor changes: Human Poison use(drow of the underdark)/Penetrating Strike(Dungeonscape) rogue 4/Generalist Wiz 1/Unseen Seer 10/Abjurant Champion 5


Are you taking the 4th level Rogue ACF Disruptive Attack (PHBII)? If not I would suggest maybe switching out the 4th level of Rogue for 1 level of Swashbuckler for the free Weapon Finesse.



6. I plan to take feats like able learner/combat expertise/practiced spellcaster/Knowledge Devotion and maybe TWF feats and still spell and item crafting feats.

Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster, and Knowledge Devotion are decent options for a build like yours. Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Fighting don't normally mix that well since you really end up tanking your attack bonus, granted the Wraithstrike spell can somewhat get around that. I would suggest choosing either a Two Weapon Fighting based feat progression (ie. Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting) or a based Combat Expertise (ie. Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Deadly Defense, Einhander) based feat progression, not both. I'm wondering what you plan to do with item crafting feats. Crafting takes a lot of time and resources to fully pull off. Unless you're an artificer or have other ways to reduce crafting time and resources it is really not that feasible of an option in most campaigns.

As usual there are handbooks for your build idea.
Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240) - for other options for your type of build
The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6) - covers some other feat suggestions, skill tricks, and other Rogue based stuff
A Guide to Wizards (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394) - the spell listings are really handy

[Reprimand]

Are you taking the 4th level Rogue ACF Disruptive Attack (PHBII)? If not I would suggest maybe switching out the 4th level of Rogue for 1 level of Swashbuckler for the free Weapon Finesse.


Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster, and Knowledge Devotion are decent options for a build like yours. Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Fighting don't normally mix that well since you really end up tanking your attack bonus, granted the Wraithstrike spell can somewhat get around that. I would suggest choosing either a Two Weapon Fighting based feat progression (ie. Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting) or a based Combat Expertise (ie. Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Deadly Defense, Einhander) based feat progression, not both. I'm wondering what you plan to do with item crafting feats. Crafting takes a lot of time and resources to fully pull off. Unless you're an artificer or have other ways to reduce crafting time and resources it is really not that feasible of an option in most campaigns.

As usual there are handbooks for your build idea.
Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240) - for other options for your type of build
The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6) - covers some other feat suggestions, skill tricks, and other Rogue based stuff
A Guide to Wizards (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394) - the spell listings are really handy

Combat expertise is for early game survival I'll probably retrain it later.

No penetrating strike from dungeonscape lets you get half your sneak attack dice on creatures noramally immune to precision damage including but not limited to undead constructs elementals etc. you trade trap sense for it and you trade trapfinding for the poison use one in drow of the underdark.

When I say item creations feats I'm more leaning towards things like craft contingency though I've had success with item creation feats with the 8/8/8 rule. eight hours of adventuring, eight hours of crafting, eight hours of sleeping. We often have quite a bit of down time in my group so its not uncommon for me to have time to make use of them.

[gorfnab]

No penetrating strike from dungeonscape lets you get half your sneak attack dice on creatures noramally immune to precision damage including but not limited to undead constructs elementals etc. you trade trap sense for it and you trade trapfinding for the poison use one in drow of the underdark.

Your build has 4 levels of Rogue though. Level 1 covers the poison use acf and level 3 covers the penetrating strike acf. Level 4 of Rogue nets you Uncanny Dodge which can be traded out for the Disruptive Attack ACF instead.

[Reprimand]

Your build has 4 levels of Rogue though. Level 1 covers the poison use acf and level 3 covers the penetrating strike acf. Level 4 of Rogue nets you Uncanny Dodge which can be traded out for the Disruptive Attack ACF instead.

Personally I'd rather retain dex to AC when flat footed. But I see what your saying I was thinking trap sense kicked in at 4 for some reason. I made this build quite a while ago I probably figured uncanny dodge was just nice to have and also I needed to meet the skill reqs for unseen seer

[gorfnab]

Personally I'd rather retain dex to AC when flat footed.
The Warning +1 weapon enhancement from Magic of Faerun (not the MIC version) would get you that.

[Eladrinblade]

The Warning +1 weapon enhancement from Magic of Faerun (not the MIC version) would get you that.

So would a robe of eyes, but relying on an item isn't usually the best idea. Besides, he needs as many skill-granting levels as possible if he wants to be a skill monkey. That said, another level of caster would grant 9th level spells.

Why are you going generalist, btw? Might as well go Diviner since you're an unseen seer and lose necromancy.

[bean illus]

This is one of my favorite types of builds, and i have dabbled with a few similar to this. I agree that two combat chains are too much, and encourage the AoO chain, with maybe some crit fishing. If you have those d6 you should use them.

Crafting time has a lot to do with DM style. If there are few magic shops then you might want to be able to make potions for the non-casters or etc. Splash weapons are touch AC and that can be worth remembering at lower levels.

I would consider adding one more level of caster, but either way; You might consider the Int boost discussed. One of the questions might 'are you chasing UMD'? If not Wis over Cha.
10, 14, 12 - 17, 12, 10 will pay off when you can start boosting everything but Int. Meanwhile the skill points (Knowledge Devotion) will build up/etc, with your 20th level Int being 22.

and You could possibly save yourself a feat by staggering the Unseen Seer and Abjurant Champion levels.

[Reprimand]

What would some must have magic items, weapons, and divination spells be?

[Eladrinblade]

If you have a build built, mind posting it?

[Reprimand]

If you have a build built, mind posting it?

Human rogue 4 (penetrating strike (dungeonscape) and poison use (drow of the underdark) alternate class features/wizard 1/Unseen Seer 10/Abjurant Champion 5 ( may stagger levels to get advanced learning at other levels based on spell suggestions.

Skill trick ideas?

Feats I want: TWF (improved/greater), Able Learner, Craft Contingency, Still Spell, ( I get silent spell from unseen seer), Darkstalker, Practiced Spellcaster, Combat Casting, Knowledge Devotion ( I need to drop two of these unless I take flaws.)

Spells that fit my playstyle: magic missile (general purpose damage spells always hits (even ethereal and so on), mage armor or shield, grease, invisibility (greater as well), Web, Telepathic Bond (group communication), Gaseous Form (combine with silent and still illusions to trick people, image spells, dimension door, Overland Flight, teleports, dimensional anchor, plane shift. Need suggestions on divination/illusion/defensive buff spells that work well and ideas on how to implement them to be most effective.

Main poisons: Sassone leaf residue, Oil of taggit, Drow poison, Black adder venom

Main weapons: +x Daggers, Need weapon crystal recommendations, Need material recommendations.

Bracer ideas?

Amulet ideas?

Ring ideas?

Cloak ideas?

Gloves of Dex +x

Anklets of translocation

Headband of Int +x

Some simple tactics I employ are casting invisibility on doors so we can see whats on the other side before opening it. Gaseous Form + Silent Still Image Spells to fool less intelligent creatures. Escape via Dimension Door/Teleports. Greater invis myself multi sneak attack a caster and poisoning casters with con poison then using sleep poisons.

[Crake]

I would honestly prefer master of poisons feat rather than the poison use ACF. It gives you poison use AND the ability to apply poisons as a swift action which is a nice boost to poison users, and trapfinding can't be gained as a feat, wheras poison use can be.

[Darrin]

I would honestly prefer master of poisons feat rather than the poison use ACF. It gives you poison use AND the ability to apply poisons as a swift action which is a nice boost to poison users, and trapfinding can't be gained as a feat, wheras poison use can be.

There are two ways to gain trapfinding as a feat. 1) Shape Soulmeld: Theft Gloves + Open Least Chakra: Hands. 2) Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment -> Kobold domain power (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a).

[Eladrinblade]

TWF (improved/greater), Able Learner, Craft Contingency, Still Spell, ( I get silent spell from unseen seer), Darkstalker, Practiced Spellcaster, Combat Casting, Knowledge Devotion ( I need to drop two of these unless I take flaws.)

Were it me, I'd drop craft contingency (because I don't know it) and combat casting (which you don't really need). Able Learner also isn't too necessary. If you save some unseen seer levels for later, you can use them to max out various skills; you intent to stagger your levels anyway. I agree with the other guy about the swift poisoner feat, if you don't care about taking a flaw, BUT, you're already starved for skill points so it may not matter.


Spells that fit my playstyle: magic missile (general purpose damage spells always hits (even ethereal and so on), mage armor or shield, grease, invisibility (greater as well), Web, Telepathic Bond (group communication), Gaseous Form (combine with silent and still illusions to trick people, image spells, dimension door, Overland Flight, teleports, dimensional anchor, plane shift. Need suggestions on divination/illusion/defensive buff spells that work well and ideas on how to implement them to be most effective.

Mage armor AND shield, you mean. Spells listed are good, though as someone with decent sneak attack, I don't think you need magic missile; those precious slots should go to something more useful, for one the damage isn't much, for two you can't sneak attack with it. Stoneskin + shield other from a cleric = you not taking much damage. You'll want a freedom of movement effect; a ring works fine. Haste is a biggie; extra attack, small boosts, big boost to speed and jump. Reduce person is a big nice buff for rogues and casters, but there's the whole "you must be able to reach the vulnerable areas of your targets" clause for sneak attack to consider.

Other spells I would add: Accelerated movement, ray of enfeeblement, protection from evil, feather fall (for jumping off cliffs to escape enemies), mirror image, protection from energy (save it until you know what kind to pick), water breathing, aerial alacrity, dragonskin, nondetection, wind wall, break enchantment, greater dispel magic, ruby ray of reversal, true seeing, protection from arrows (consider that arrows themselves need to be enhanced to bypass DR/magic), dragonsight (so good), and faerie fire if you could somehow get access to it (it's great for neutralizing things that negate sneak attack).

Hold portal is a pariah that's actually useful, assuming you're in a dungeon. It can separate an enemy from yourself, or from it's buddies. This allows you to fight part of a group at a time, or it gives you time to hide, escape, or cast buffing spells. It can also trap an enemy somewhere you want to ambush them. Arcane lock is the same, but lets you pass. Hold Portal is good for a wand.

Silent image is a barrel of fun; there is so much you can do with this spell that there are threads devoted to it; good for a wand.

Lowly disguise self can get you close enough to an enemy to give you time for a sneak attack; good for a wand.

Arcane Eye would let you search for traps from a safe distance, if you were a traps guys.

Project Image always sounded like a fun spell to me, but you'd have to really sit down and think about it's applications to make it worthwhile.

Statue is fun; basically you get hardness 8 when it's not your turn.

Make a full sneak attack against an enemy, then use swift etherealness to fall through the floor to a level below (or wall or ceiling, i guess).

Higher level spells are typically more of the same, but better. Mostly, a spell's uses are obvious, but some aren't. Like using disintegrate to make a hole under somebody, so they have to waste actions getting out on their turn. Or using temporal stasis on a buddy to make them immune to all damage until you release them (volcano about to go off and you can't get the whole team out? friend about to get murdered by a tough monster? about to die from poison? temp stasis).


Main poisons: Sassone leaf residue, Oil of taggit, Drow poison, Black adder venom.
-I don't know poisons very well. Consider putting "assassination" enhancement on a dagger that's +5 (or use greater magic weapon). If it doesn't have a high DC, it's generally not worth using. Obviously don't try using them against tough enemies; save em for rogues, arcane casters, aberrations, etc.

Main weapons: +x Daggers, Need weapon crystal recommendations, Need material recommendations.
-Crystals: Revelation is nice; let's you start sneak attacking if you otherwise couldn't see them. But the objective best for you is probably truedeath and demolition, with the greater varieties, so you can sneak attack undead and constructs.
-Materials: Generally I go with one weapon being adamantine, another being cold iron. If you really need silver, you can use alchemical silver, but I usually just have one of my spiked gauntlets be silver.
-an idea: wear two spiked gauntlets, one being +1 silvered eager bloodstone, the other being a different material and having warning instead of eager. Both have auto-empowered vampiric touches in them. That can be a LOT of extra damage on a full round of sneak attacks, plus some temp hp for you. Also, a pair of gauntlets is another two uses of poison.
-also, put wand chambers in every weapon; wraithstrike is a biggie, I also like silent image in one. Burning sword, too.

Bracer ideas?
-since you don't need bracers of armor, you're free here. Personally I love armbands of might, but they're not so useful for you. Other than bracers of archery (which you don't really want), there's not much to take. Your DM may allow you to have bracers of protection instead of a ring.

Amulet ideas?
-nat armor or constitution. Dragonskin spell grants nat armor and energy resist, if that helps you choose.

Ring ideas?
-freedom of movement, counterspells (greater dispel magic); so you can avoid debuffs once per battle

Cloak ideas?
-resistance

Robe ideas?
-robe of eyes, ask DM if uncanny dodge will combine with your own for improved uncanny dodge

Gloves of Dex +x
Anklets of translocation
Headband of Int +x
-yup

Some simple tactics I employ are casting invisibility on doors so we can see whats on the other side before opening it. Gaseous Form + Silent Still Image Spells to fool less intelligent creatures. Escape via Dimension Door/Teleports. Greater invis myself multi sneak attack a caster and poisoning casters with con poison then using sleep poisons.
-good tactics

The main thing I want to ask about is your skills. Since you want face and knowledge skills, you won't have room for rogue skills.
[/QUOTE]

[Reprimand]

Actually I need combat casting as feat tax for abjurant champion the thing about craft contingency is it lets me essentially use the contingency spell but have no limit on how many I can have. Like Oh fighting orcs? Contingent orcbane spell goes off etc etc. oh my hp dropped below 25% teleport triggers I'm back at my base. There's literally no limit to the utility.

I like the spiked gauntlets idea for a source of silver. I'm just worried about my daggers being of mixed materials.

I might ask for a armored greatcoat that grants an ac bonus (like a +2 or something) that stacks with other armor sources and grants like dr 5/bludgeoning rather than robe of eyes.

Digging the recommendations for spells/wands!

What book is dragon skin (that nat armor bonus one so I don't need to take an amulet of nat armor) from? I like the idea of more hit points a lot.

Not sure my DM would allow bracers of protection he's kind of a stickler for items in the appropriate slots. What about bracers of murder? It's 8k gold and lets me reroll 1s on my sneak attack.

Whats that battle wizard variant that gives me a fighter bonus feat rather than scribe scroll? I might net a bonus feat that way to cover twf so I can take combat casting later. might not be a great idea though because making scrolls of stuff like knock is super useful.

Someone mentioned trapfinding over poison use and I'd just like to say it's not an issue in my game I can literally count the number of disarmable traps I've run into over the course of a 5 year campaign with this DM on one hand. I'd rather outsource all trapfinding and lockpicking to an npc hireling unless I have knock scrolls to spare or something.

[Eladrinblade]

Actually I need combat casting as feat tax for abjurant champion the thing about craft contingency is it lets me essentially use the contingency spell but have no limit on how many I can have. Like Oh fighting orcs? Contingent orcbane spell goes off etc etc. oh my hp dropped below 25% teleport triggers I'm back at my base. There's literally no limit to the utility.

I like the spiked gauntlets idea for a source of silver. I'm just worried about my daggers being of mixed materials.

I might ask for a armored greatcoat that grants an ac bonus (like a +2 or something) that stacks with other armor sources and grants like dr 5/bludgeoning rather than robe of eyes.

Digging the recommendations for spells/wands!

What book is dragon skin (that nat armor bonus one so I don't need to take an amulet of nat armor) from? I like the idea of more hit points a lot.

Not sure my DM would allow bracers of protection he's kind of a stickler for items in the appropriate slots. What about bracers of murder? It's 8k gold and lets me reroll 1s on my sneak attack.

Whats that battle wizard variant that gives me a fighter bonus feat rather than scribe scroll? I might net a bonus feat that way to cover twf so I can take combat casting later. might not be a great idea though because making scrolls of stuff like knock is super useful.

Someone mentioned trapfinding over poison use and I'd just like to say it's not an issue in my game I can literally count the number of disarmable traps I've run into over the course of a 5 year campaign with this DM on one hand. I'd rather outsource all trapfinding and lockpicking to an npc hireling unless I have knock scrolls to spare or something.

Oh, on the combat casting. I'll have to look up that contingency feat; sounds neat.

Dragonskin is from the draconomicon, but is also in the spell compendium.

The bracers slot "affinity" is "combat", according to the DMG. It's worth a shot to ask him. Barring that, murder sounds good. If you have a cleric buddy, you'll have easy access to deflection AC anyway.

Yes to the martial wizard. If you can ever get partially charged wands, they beat scrolls hands down.

If you don't have to deal with traps, that's two skills you can ignore. Opening locks is less of an issue than traps, because of knock, adamantine weapons, shatter, etc. The skill just lets you do it quickly, with no fuss or noise, and no evidence you were there.