Best spell for paladin with warcaster

[Iofdoom]

So I have a paladin with the warcaster feat, 20 cha, and is 8th level. I was wondering which spell would be the best to use with the op attack feature of warcaster. Command jumps to mind, as instantly ending the enemies turn when they try to get away sounds useful, especially when you can use grovel as the command to force them prone.
Any other suggestions?

[djreynolds]

So I have a paladin with the warcaster feat, 20 cha, and is 8th level. I was wondering which spell would be the best to use with the op attack feature of warcaster. Command jumps to mind, as instantly ending the enemies turn when they try to get away sounds useful, especially when you can use grovel as the command to force them prone.
Any other suggestions?

Hold person, yes the enemy does get a lot of chances to roll out of it, but if they fail others in your party will feast.

Banishment could be cool as are the smite spells

[Iofdoom]

Smite spells are bonus actions targeting myself, so they are not an option. Unless you mean hitting them with a melee attack and triggering the smite class feature.
Hold person is useful, but I am not vengeance (custom oath of the hellsworn), my oath spells are charm person, hellish rebuke, calm emotions and darkvision.
Also hold person would allow 2 saves, because they get one as the spell is cast, then another immediately as their turn ends.

[djreynolds]

Well a level of sorcerer would give you access to booming blade and green flame blade, you could use those cantrips in melee for AoO with war-caster

Charm person is an option.

Take a look at these threads about paladin/sorcerer builds, even a few levels will greatly increase you spells, same spell stat, and grab the shield spell for a +5AC bonus on an oft used reaction.

[Gastronomie]

Well a level of sorcerer would give you access to booming blade and green flame blade, you could use those cantrips in melee for AoO with war-caster

Charm person is an option.

Take a look at these threads about paladin/sorcerer builds, even a few levels will greatly increase you spells, same spell stat, and grab the shield spell for a +5AC bonus on an oft used reaction.Yeah, especially Booming Blade (which dramatically increases your OA damage with its extra effect). Look at mah siggy for the Paladin/Sorcerer build stuff.

Charm Person isn't very good in combat tho'; it gives advantage on the opponent's save. All in all, if you want to make the most out of War Caster, you should just spam Booming Blade. At level 8, your OA deals an extra 3d8 thunder damage. Increases to extra 5d8 at level 11 to 16, and extra 7d8 at level 17 and higher. Pretty good deal.

[Contrast]

It seems the only generic 1 action single target spells to target hostiles paladins get are Command, Dispel Magic (though this is also listed as an OoD add on?), Banishment and Geas.

Depending on your Oath, Command is about as good as its likely to get unless you want to try and nab a cantrip somehow. I wouldn't worry too much though - just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to. Nothing wrong with just stabbing people with a sword as they try to run away.

Edit - If you do go for BB then http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/10/war-caster-hitting-with-booming-blade/ is relevant.

[Zene]

Yeah I'd say of your current choices, command is probably the best... but Paladin already has one of the best op attack features without warcaster (attack+smite) so you may just want to use that.

[coredump]

Technically, Command won't stop them, since it says it effects them on their "next turn"

Instead of a spell, you could use the slot for Smite, and do 3D8+4(?) damage.

I probably would not have advised Warcaster in the first place.

[Iofdoom]

We haven't had the next game session yet, so the feat isn't locked in. Were doing Storm King's Thunder, which is why I'm not taking mounted combat, doesn't seem super useful with giants being huge.
I could go for 20 STR, (have 18) but I was thinking of something more useful than just a +1 to hit and dmg.

[Arkhios]

I probably would not have advised Warcaster in the first place.

I disagree.

War Caster has more benefits than just the spell instead of an op attack, such as help with concentration and ability to cast spells while wielding weapons and/or shield in both hands. War Caster is especially great feat for a paladin. Combined with Aura of Protection (with OP's Cha 20 that's +5 on top of Constitution modifier and with advantage on Concentration with such spells) it makes a paladin's spells very sticky, which is beneficial due to the lack of spell slots a full-caster would have.

[Solunaris]

I don't know how deep you'll be getting or if multiclassing is allowed but... See if you can find a way to gain Booming Blade from the SCAG. A single level of Sorcerer would do it, though you might not want to delay your Paladin stuff; otherwise you could take Magic Initiate Wizard for it, another Cantrip, and a single use per long rest 1st level spell.

Personally, I'd just wait until 12th for Magic Initiate, or take it at 8th and wait until 12th for Warcaster. But that's just me.

[Arkhios]

I don't know how deep you'll be getting or if multiclassing is allowed but... See if you can find a way to gain Booming Blade from the SCAG. A single level of Sorcerer would do it, though you might not want to delay your Paladin stuff; otherwise you could take Magic Initiate Wizard for it, another Cantrip, and a single use per long rest 1st level spell.

Personally, I'd just wait until 12th for Magic Initiate, or take it at 8th and wait until 12th for Warcaster. But that's just me.

I'm curious, why Magic Initiate Wizard when you suggest a multiclass into sorcerer, which obviously has better synergy overall?

Surely you could just take Magic Initiate Sorcerer, pick booming blade and maybe Green-Flame Blade as well, and one 1st-level spell from sorcerer list. Wizard's and Sorcerer's lists are not that much different after all.

[jaappleton]

Bless.

Bless, Bless, Bless.

So let's say 16 Con, level 6, and 16 Charisma. That's +6 to Con saves, plus 1d4. You're saving on most, and you're giving 3+1d4 to saves for your allies.

You just made everyone succeed on that Fireball save.

[coredump]

I disagree.

War Caster has more benefits than just the spell instead of an op attack, such as help with concentration and ability to cast spells while wielding weapons and/or shield in both hands. War Caster is especially great feat for a paladin. Combined with Aura of Protection (with OP's Cha 20 that's +5 on top of Constitution modifier and with advantage on Concentration with such spells) it makes a paladin's spells very sticky, which is beneficial due to the lack of spell slots a full-caster would have.

I will back up a bit, I missed that he already had Cha20, and now we find out Str18. So going for stat bumps isn't as necessary.
But Paladins can already cast with weapon and shield, so that doesn't help.
I would prefer Res(Con) because it gives about the same ave boost, and will be a sure thing, it becomes even better if you have an odd Con score.
I assume you mean 'sticky' towards self-buffs like Haste or Hunter's mark. Then it will help, but would still prefer Res(Con), it does nothing to make them more 'sticky' when casting against enemies.


I don't know how deep you'll be getting or if multiclassing is allowed but... See if you can find a way to gain Booming Blade from the SCAG. A single level of Sorcerer would do it, though you might not want to delay your Paladin stuff; otherwise you could take Magic Initiate Wizard for it, another Cantrip, and a single use per long rest 1st level spell.

Personally, I'd just wait until 12th for Magic Initiate, or take it at 8th and wait until 12th for Warcaster. But that's just me.
Sounds like a big investment just to make OA a little better.... how many OA are people getting? Especially against 'important' enemies?

[Arkhios]

I will back up a bit, I missed that he already had Cha20, and now we find out Str18. So going for stat bumps isn't as necessary.
But Paladins can already cast with weapon and shield, so that doesn't help.
I would prefer Res(Con) because it gives about the same ave boost, and will be a sure thing, it becomes even better if you have an odd Con score.
I assume you mean 'sticky' towards self-buffs like Haste or Hunter's mark. Then it will help, but would still prefer Res(Con), it does nothing to make them more 'sticky' when casting against enemies.

Paladin's shield (when used as a holy symbol) only helps with spells that have a material AND somatic component. There remain quite a few spells that have only somatic and no material component, in which case War Caster is the real jewel of feats for a paladin, who is more inclined to use the shield as a spellcasting focus anyway.

I meant 'sticky' towards any spells that require a concentration from the paladin. That includes but isn't limited to haste or hunter's mark. Bless, Shield of Faith, All Smite spells, Aura spells, etc. I could list all of the spells that would benefit but it would take quite a bit of time (which I don't have now) and space.

[Iofdoom]

Since it seems to come up, stats are
18 STR
10 DEX
14 CON
14 INT
14 WIS
20 CHA
Half-elf, standard traits. (Drow for fluff)
Character wears plate with a shield and a sword (+2 with effectively the defender property), also I'm riding a nightmare. (Nightmare has a "bridle of disguise" to not freak out the natives)
Holy symbol on shield is a no go, being paladin of Asmodeus on the sword cost and all.
I'm personally not a fan of multiclassing, and have spoken out against it, so taking levels in sorcerer is kinda out.

[coredump]

Paladin's shield (when used as a holy symbol) only helps with spells that have a material AND somatic component. There remain quite a few spells that have only somatic and no material component, in which case War Caster is the real jewel of feats for a paladin, who is more inclined to use the shield as a spellcasting focus anyway. The number with somatic and material.....and that you might cast during combat....is very small. And even most of those would be cast the first round before you draw your weapon.
Even if you did get into a situation where you *really needed* to cast Lessor Restoration *during* combat.... you put away weapon, cast. Next turn draw weapon, attack. The only 'loss' is from potential OAs. Seems like an edge case of an edge case.


I meant 'sticky' towards any spells that require a concentration from the paladin. That includes but isn't limited to haste or hunter's mark. Bless, Shield of Faith, All Smite spells, Aura spells, etc. I could list all of the spells that would benefit but it would take quite a bit of time (which I don't have now) and space.No need, no one was asking for a comprehensive list. I was trying to distinguish how you were using the term. Normally I hear 'sticky' in reference to Casting on other creatures.
As for concentration spells.... yes the Con saves are important, just like I agreed previously also. But I think Res(Con) is a better choice for concentration checks than Warcaster will be. The vast majority of attacks will be doing <22hp of damage, so you mostly care about making DC10 saves. With Con 14 and Cha 20, advantage gives the average benefit equivalent to +1.8, while +Prof gives +3, and +4 at 9th level.
Looking at 9th level, the Paladin needs to take 28 damage per attack before Warcaster is more beneficial than ResCon. And that is on *average*. Res Con means you know you *always* pass when taking 23 or less damage. And even when Warcaster is better, it is less than +1 better.

[coredump]

Since it seems to come up, stats are
18 STR
10 DEX
14 CON
14 INT
14 WIS
20 CHA
Half-elf, standard traits. (Drow for fluff)
Character wears plate with a shield and a sword (+2 with effectively the defender property), also I'm riding a nightmare. (Nightmare has a "bridle of disguise" to not freak out the natives)
Holy symbol on shield is a no go, being paladin of Asmodeus on the sword cost and all.
I'm personally not a fan of multiclassing, and have spoken out against it, so taking levels in sorcerer is kinda out.
Hmmmm...... With high stats, all even stats, and no device on the shield.... Warcaster may work out better for you. There aren't that many spells you want to cast in combat even with S&M components, but there are a few, and it probably outweighs the better Con saves from ResCon. (Especially if you are only playing a few levels.)

[Joe the Rat]

Command for "Halt"/"Kneel"/"Approach" is a clear choice. They may leave reach (see "next turn" discussion), but next round they do nothing, do nothing and get prone, or come back to you. Hold person is pricier, but functions similarly.
I can see situational uses for dispel magic and remove curse.
Pity about the drow thing - if you went Half High Elf, you could take the alt. feature to get a free wizard cantrip.
A MC level, or Magic Initiate in a Charisma-Caster-class-of-your-choice-but-with-the-Asmodeus-schtick-why-not-Warlock would get you your booming blade. It doesn't stop them from running away, it punishes them for doing it. And you can still smite with it.

(Fiend patron, booming blade and greenflame blade or lightning lure for the cantrips, Command to free up prep space on the paladin prep list, a short rest slot for smiting, and 6 thp every time you drop something. Show them how to do MC the right way.)

[Davemeddlehed]

Smite spells are bonus actions targeting myself, so they are not an option. Unless you mean hitting them with a melee attack and triggering the smite class feature.
Hold person is useful, but I am not vengeance (custom oath of the hellsworn), my oath spells are charm person, hellish rebuke, calm emotions and darkvision.
Also hold person would allow 2 saves, because they get one as the spell is cast, then another immediately as their turn ends.

Technically you wouldn't need Warcaster to apply Divine Smite to an opportunity attack, since it's not a spell at all.

[Arkhios]

Technically you wouldn't need Warcaster to apply Divine Smite to an opportunity attack, since it's not a spell at all.

True, but there are Smite spells and Divine Smite, two completely different things.

[Videkus]

Your best option damage-wise would be to forgo the use of the Warcaster perk to cast a spell and just take a normal OA.

[Arkhios]

Your best option damage-wise would be to forgo the use of the Warcaster perk to cast a spell and just take a normal OA.

In all honesty, I'm sorry but I believe you've misunderstood the purpose of that War Caster perk. Everything doesn't have to be related to dealing damage, damage, and some more damage.

The question was "which spell is best for a paladin with War Caster", not "which spell is best to deal damage instead of a regular opportunity attack via War Caster".

[bid]

So I have a paladin with the warcaster feat, 20 cha, and is 8th level. I was wondering which spell would be the best to use with the op attack feature of warcaster. Command jumps to mind, as instantly ending the enemies turn when they try to get away sounds useful, especially when you can use grovel as the command to force them prone.
Any other suggestions?
If you are vengeance, hold person... and the target has 2 saves before others can act. If the only effect is stopping the target, sentinel would have done as well as warcaster.
Even 3rd, bestow curse (save at start at least) and dispel magic are the best you can do.

Damage-wise, I don't think there's anything better than a normal attack with divine smite added.

So warcaster is mostly fluff and RP concept.
- saves at +7 with advantage or +10 without... changes very little
- no Asmodeus holy symbol is an RP issue
- casting on OA has little use.


I think I'll go with Joe the Rat and pick command, even if the target will finish his turn and won't be prone for another full round.

[Davemeddlehed]

True, but there are Smite spells and Divine Smite, two completely different things.

That's true, however I can't really think of a scenario, at least one that isn't highly specific, where any of the Smite spells are out-and-out better than Divine Smite other than Blinding, or Banishing on an opportunity attack.

[Arkhios]

That's true, however I can't really think of a scenario, at least one that isn't highly specific, where any of the Smite spells are out-and-out better than Divine Smite other than Blinding, or Banishing on an opportunity attack.

Now, I wasn't saying that any Smite spell would even work with the War Caster perk (=cast a spell as a reaction instead of an opportunity attack; the spell must normally be cast as an Action. Smite spells are cast as a Bonus Action).

I was merely correcting that those two (Divine Smite and Smite spells) both exist at the same time instead of being one and same thing.