Rough sketch of sorcerer variant

[belboz]

The sorcerer is one of those classes that's perennially being fixed. A lot of people think it's underpowered, especially when compared to its close cousin, the wizard, because its spell flexibility, while it seems high, is really very low in the short term.

I've seen a lot of variants proposed that I actually like a lot, but in the interest of one more lump in the stew, here's a random idea for a spontaneous arcane caster with, I think, a bit more flexibility than the standard sorcerer. I won't plot out tables, because this sorcerer uses most of the mechanics of the standard one. Exceptions:

Less spells/day: Because of its vastly increased flexibility, the variant sorcerer's spells/day will be like a cha-based Wizard (not the superior spells/day of a standard Sorcerer), to avoid going too far in the other direction.

School specialization: The big one. When a variant sorcerer is created, they pick one specialty school, and 1-2 barred schools (depending on specialty), just like a wizard. The sorcerer also picks 2 "schools of competence".


A sorcerer can spontaneously cast any spell from his/her specialty school, provided he/she has a slot of the appropriate level or higher to burn.
A sorcerer can spontaneously cast any spell from his/her schools of competence, but this uses a spell slot 3 levels higher than normal.
A sorcerer can spontaneously cast any spell from a school that is not a specialty, competence, or barred school, but this uses a spell slot 6 levels higher than normal.
A sorcerer cannot cast any spells from the barred school/schools.


Thoughts? Another way to go would be to just pick a specialty school at the start, have everything else start as barred, and have basic competence (school), competence (school), and extra specialty (school) as sorcerous metamagic feat chains, and give them bonus feats as Wizards. Generally weaker, but more customizable.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Umm... no.

People keep trying to fix Sorcerer because it is sub-par to a Wizard. Making it suck worse will not help unless you plan on nerfing Wizard in a similar manner to try and put them on par with the melee classes.

[belboz]

Umm... no.

People keep trying to fix Sorcerer because it is sub-par to a Wizard. Making it suck worse will not help unless you plan on nerfing Wizard in a similar manner to try and put them on par with the melee classes.

Would this really make it "suck worse"? For example, at first level, instead of having 4 cantrips and 2 1st level spells known, a variant sorcerer with, say, a transmutation specialty would have 6 cantrips and 8 1st-level spells known. Say, a level 18-20 sorcerer with:

Transmutation as specialty
Divination and Conjuration as competence
Evocation and Necromancy as banned

Would effectively have the following spells known:

All Transmutation/Universal
Divination and Conjuration up to 6th level
Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion up to 3rd level

That's spells known of:

13/32/38/33/15/20/20/5/3/4

That's *much* better than a sorcerer at levels 0-6, a bit better at 7 and 9, and no worse at 8. And I didn't really min/max those schools for spells known (although Transmutation and Conjuration certainly have a lot, Divination doesn't).

I'm open to the possibility that, because you don't get quite as much choice in which spell combos you have access to (those 7th-9th level spells would all be transmutations in the previous case, except for Limited Wish and Wish), that this is still worse than the standard sorcerer...but I'd take some convincing. The idea here is definitely to buff, not weaken, the class. My impression was that the reason sorcerers were considered inferior to wizards had mostly to do with spells known.

[Kurald Galain]

Why would you want to cast a first-level spell in a seventh-level slot (except if you're quickening and empowering it)?

[DracoDei]

The spell-level jumps may be too much... 1 for competence and 2 for neutrality MIGHT be enough...

[belboz]

Why would you want to cast a first-level spell in a seventh-level slot (except if you're quickening and empowering it)?

Because it's a spell you absolutely need. A standard sorcerer can't cast the spell at all, if it's not on their spells known list.

But maybe +3/+6 is too rough. +1/+2, as DracoDei suggests? I *don't* want the sorcerer to come close to being a wizard without the need to memorize spells or maintain a spellbook; that's extremely overpowered. But maybe +1/+2 doesn't do that. Or split the difference? +2/+4?

Basically, I want to give sorcerers access to a much wider range of spells than they have now, but if they're going to stay spontaneous, it can't be as wide a range as a wizard (because spontaneity has to have *some* tradeoff).

[Reinboom]

It's important to look at both spells per day and spells known together as one. They are directly influencing each other here.

Aside, lets take the one you already given out:
Transmutation*
C on Divination and Conjuration
N on Abj, Ench, and Illu

barring Necro and Evoc.

The two power schools, in my opinion, is transmutation and conjuration. This covers into them, that's a start for looking at it. I'll be taking into account as core only, this is easier to cover. So, you can't cast conjurer or transmutation spells of a decent effect (level 1) until you reach level 8. And then only the most basic ones. Also, and then only conjuration and divination. I hope you are not the main arcanist of the party.
Also, they are using higher spell slots, no? If I have less spell slots than a sorcerer already would have, then, I would be extremely worried about doing anything out my school until level 10 even. really, using 4th level spell slots on 1st level spells is harsh, I mean, you're using 4th level spell slots. You only have so many, this will not be worth it.
Side tracked onto transmutation, yes you will be the main buffer of the party at 6th level, but that's it. A drone of no tricks, and really no options (which sort of defeats the purpose). Spells of the same school do similar things, and are normally only an enhancement onto themselves.
I would also say +1 and +2 split. It would at least allow you to be the main arcanist.

[belboz]

OK, I'm convinced. +3/+6 definitely is too harsh. +1/+2 it is.

Maybe don't even require barred schools, but just have one/two "opposed schools" at +3?

[Draz74]

Hmmm. +1/+2 seems a little too powerful at high levels. (Level 18 Divination specialist: I cast ALL spells spontaneously except Evocation, as long as they are 7th level or lower!)

But then again, it seems harsh if you can't cast, say, Detect Magic until Level 4, just because Divination is your "neutral" school, not a specialty. And even then, Detect Magic takes one of your highest spell slots. And Mage Armor - unless you're a Conjuration affiliate, you can't cast it until Level 6??? And then it will always take a 3rd-level spell slot? Harsh.

That said, if you're going to keep this system at all, +1/+3 or +1/+4 seems like the fairest set of penalties.

[belboz]

Hmmm. +1/+2 seems a little too powerful at high levels. (Level 18 Divination specialist: I cast ALL spells spontaneously except Evocation, as long as they are 7th level or lower!)


...and as long as you're willing to use up a superior spell-slot for them.



But then again, it seems harsh if you can't cast, say, Detect Magic until Level 4, just because Divination is your "neutral" school, not a specialty. And even then, Detect Magic takes one of your highest spell slots. And Mage Armor - unless you're a Conjuration affiliate, you can't cast it until Level 6??? And then it will always take a 3rd-level spell slot? Harsh.

Well, you do get three affiliated schools. That's almost half of them. And I think you're off by a level--spells/day is as a wizard, not a standard sorcerer--so you're casting those spells at levels 3 and 5, respectively, *if* you don't choose either school as a specialty or competence.


That said, if you're going to keep this system at all, +1/+3 or +1/+4 seems like the fairest set of penalties.

Perhaps...and you're right, I'm starting to sour on the idea generally. I might withdraw it, if it were actually entered in anything.

[Jack_Simth]

I honestly can't see any reasonable way to balance the original idea, as it stands.

Suppose, instead, a Sorcerer had a different kind of specialty, based on spells known rather than the Wizard's Spells Per Day - pick a School; you get one bonus spell known at each spell level, provided it is from that school. However, you can no longer take spells from two forbidden schools.

Honestly, though, it's not the Sorcerer that needs strengthening; it's still a Full Caster; past about level 10 (+/- about 4 levels), with a reasonable build, it'll beat a similar-skill (player skill, that is) Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Monk, Rogue, or Bard (although those last two are iffy, due to mostly to UMD) for usefulness.

If you're after class balance, you need to find a way to strengthing the Wizard and Sorcerer at low levels, weaken the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid at higher levels, and strengthen the Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, and Monk at high levels (possibly also Rogue and Bard, but not as much).

It's actually easier done with OOC conversation convincing the higher power classes to be deliberately non-optimal, mind....