Arcane Trickster: Straight Rogue or MC Rogue/Wizard?

[Kobard]

One of my friends has the itch to GM a game of D&D, so I may get another shot at being a player instead of the GM, so I'm pre-planning a possible character.

Tentatively, my character would be a high elf arcane trickster. But I was also wondering along those lines whether I should play a full Arcane Trickster or multiclass as a Rogue/Wizard for broader magical utility. (Or even just pick a wizard with a criminal or charlatan background.) If I did the MC character, my choices obviously become a bit more complex. In particular, should I even stay with the Arcane Trickster archetype or should I choose another (e.g. thief, assassin, etc.)? Or which wizard school should I pick: bladesinger (for the bladesong and extra attack), illusion, or some other one? What are some of the best places for such a multiclass combo? What do you see as the main advantages of the full Arcane Trickster and the Arcane Trickster/Wizard or more broadly Rogue/Wizard archetype?

Thanks.

[Specter]

Depends on what you want and if school features interest you. But I would definitely go Wizard, taking the first two levels after Rogue 9 (for Magical Ambush). After, some Rogue to taste (probably Rogue 14) and the rest Wizard.

Definitely go Arcane Trickster; that will give you a few more spell slots to upcast.

[JellyPooga]

If you want that little bit of extra magical "oomph", then a Wizard dip is definitely not wasted on an Arcane Trickster. Being able to swap out all of your 1st level Arcane Trickster spells known for higher level ones is a great boon in the mid to late game. In the early game, the additional spell slots will make you feel more like a spellcaster, faster.

Depending on which school you pick, Wizard can offer some great stuff to a Rogue; Portent is always great for anyone, but with Rogues tending to make a higher number of rolls than, perhaps, other characters (picking locks, stealth, Perception to find traps, whatever Expertise skills they have; skill monkeys roll more dice), that Portent goes a little bit further. Abjuration isn't a bad choice if you're going tanky, but it's dependence on Wizard levels makes this a better choice for a Wizard with a few levels of Rogue than the other way around. Necromancy, for Grim Harvest, might also be an interesting option if you've got a decent Int score.

I would probably look at going Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 3/Wizard (whatever) 2 as a starting point. You'll have 2nd level spell slots (as a 3rd level caster), Cunning Action, 2d6 Sneak Attack, Expertise and whatever School feature you've gone for. It's a nice MC base to work from. From there you can choose which direction you want to take the character; if you find yourself enjoying the spellslinging more, you can advance Wizard; if you find yourself enjoying the skills and combat, or are feeling vulnerable, then you can advance Rogue.

Arcane Trickster and Wizard is one of those Multiclass combinations you can't really get wrong. Whether you aim for Arcane Trickster 3/Wizard 17, Arcane Trickster 18/Wizard 2, a 10/10 split or whatever...it all gels quite nicely. The only real advice I'd give is to take Rogue levels in blocks of 3, if only because AT has a 1/3 spellcasting progression.

[DivisibleByZero]

I would probably look at going Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 3/Wizard (whatever) 2 as a starting point.
<snip>
The only real advice I'd give is to take Rogue levels in blocks of 3, if only because AT has a 1/3 spellcasting progression.

Completely agree, for the most part. But realistically, taking one level of wiz is more powerful for spellcasting than three levels of rogue, so the latter point is debatable. Rogue17/wiz3 has the same slots as rogue18/wiz2.

I'd go with Eladrin instead of High Elf. Same stat boosts, you don't need another cantrip, and Misty Step on a short rest is awesome.
If you're aiming for more of a Trickster, I'd start 3 rogue, then grab a level of wiz (BS, as you're an elf). Take the second wiz level either immediately for a faster slot progression, or wait for rogue 6 or 9 if you want. I'd follow the former and grab it immediately.

[Parra]

Have you considered just going full Wizard and just having a high dex and rogue skills?

With the right background and skill choices you can tick all the 'classic' rogue boxes (stealth, trap disarming, lockpicking etc) and have the full range of the wizard class behind you.

This is actually what Im playing at the moment (lvl 4 conjurer), I have deliberately avoided most direct damage spells in favour of utility and control stuff, though my group has a lot of heavy hitters to dish out the damage. And I gotta say I quite enjoy playing the wizard-as-a-rogue.

[SilverStud]

I have a player who is doing just that, only it's sorcerer-as-a-rogue. He's a fast-talking, Subtle-casting, slippery punk. One minute talking nice, the next minute stealing all your nice things.

[Biggstick]

Have you considered just going full Wizard and just having a high dex and rogue skills?

With the right background and skill choices you can tick all the 'classic' rogue boxes (stealth, trap disarming, lockpicking etc) and have the full range of the wizard class behind you.

This is actually what Im playing at the moment (lvl 4 conjurer), I have deliberately avoided most direct damage spells in favour of utility and control stuff, though my group has a lot of heavy hitters to dish out the damage. And I gotta say I quite enjoy playing the wizard-as-a-rogue.

How are you enjoying the level 2 Conjuration ability? In the hands of a creative player, it can be incredible. ^_^

There is another player in my game who is playing a Human Arcane Trickster 7//Conjuration Wizard 2 with the Mobile feat as her starting feat. She is loving the Rogue, plus the nice little bonus of being able to make anything that fits in a 3' by 3' box is pretty incredible utility. I'll definitely recommend Conjuration as a school for the OP's AT/Wizard combination.

I would just be aware that Conjuration doesn't really do well imo for the later Wizard levels. I wouldn't push past Wizard 9 if I went Conjuration, as the level 10 Conjuration Wizard doesn't do much help for this particular multiclass. I'd view Conjuration Wizard 6 as a great ability to get out of trouble should you ever get caught, and all the other levels past 6 as being choices for higher level spells (Greater Invisibility, Arcane Eye, Polymorph, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Scrying, etc).

[EDL]

I'm playing Arcane Trickster \ Bladesinger now and i find it pretty fun.
I would suggest starting with Rogue 3 and going Wiz 3 after for lvl 2 spells. With bladesong + shield spell + blur at lvl6 you are very hard to hit with enemy attacks so you can freely move through battlefield and hit enemies with booming or green-flame blade. And don't forget about familiar who can give you free advantage and sneak attacks.
And out of the battle you are still have lot's of useful rituals, great stealth and familiar for scouting, mage hand for disarming\activating traps from the distance and so on.

[Gignere]

If I ever do a rogue-like character I would probably do a rogue blade singer, and abuse the crap out of bladesong and uncanny dodge and be a tanky spell caster, like that.

A rogue warlock is kind of cool 😎 too.

[Parra]

How are you enjoying the level 2 Conjuration ability? In the hands of a creative player, it can be incredible. ^_^

I love it, its gotten me out of some incredibly sticky situations. Couple it with the Minor Illusion Cantrip an the list of shenanigans you can get up to is just massive.

While its true that the level 10 & 14 conjuration abilities are a bit 'meh' for the rogue type character, they still have their uses. The unbreakable concentration on conjurations being quite handy if you have your summoned gribblies causing trouble. But by that point you are mostly just try to achieve higher level spell slots.

With my character I will take some Rogue levels, though probably only 2 and certainly not before lvl 6 (likely after level 7 just so I can get the 4th level spells)

[Kobard]

Thank you, everyone, for the advice so far.


Depending on which school you pick, Wizard can offer some great stuff to a Rogue; Portent is always great for anyone, but with Rogues tending to make a higher number of rolls than, perhaps, other characters (picking locks, stealth, Perception to find traps, whatever Expertise skills they have; skill monkeys roll more dice), that Portent goes a little bit further. Abjuration isn't a bad choice if you're going tanky, but it's dependence on Wizard levels makes this a better choice for a Wizard with a few levels of Rogue than the other way around. Necromancy, for Grim Harvest, might also be an interesting option if you've got a decent Int score.Right now, my strongest contenders (in no particular order) are probably Divination, Illusion, and Bladesinger. Bladesong provides a nice buff to mobility and defense, plus the extra attack, but it is also somewhat redundant: i.e. armor and weapon proficiencies. Illusionist doesn't really shine until Illusory Self and Reality.


I would probably look at going Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 3/Wizard (whatever) 2 as a starting point. You'll have 2nd level spell slots (as a 3rd level caster), Cunning Action, 2d6 Sneak Attack, Expertise and whatever School feature you've gone for. It's a nice MC base to work from. From there you can choose which direction you want to take the character; if you find yourself enjoying the spellslinging more, you can advance Wizard; if you find yourself enjoying the skills and combat, or are feeling vulnerable, then you can advance Rogue.

Arcane Trickster and Wizard is one of those Multiclass combinations you can't really get wrong. Whether you aim for Arcane Trickster 3/Wizard 17, Arcane Trickster 18/Wizard 2, a 10/10 split or whatever...it all gels quite nicely. The only real advice I'd give is to take Rogue levels in blocks of 3, if only because AT has a 1/3 spellcasting progression.My worry with starting Rogue 3/Wizard 2 is that it delays my ASI/feat by two levels. I could go Rogue 4 and then Wizard 2.


I'd go with Eladrin instead of High Elf. Same stat boosts, you don't need another cantrip, and Misty Step on a short rest is awesome.
If you're aiming for more of a Trickster, I'd start 3 rogue, then grab a level of wiz (BS, as you're an elf). Take the second wiz level either immediately for a faster slot progression, or wait for rogue 6 or 9 if you want. I'd follow the former and grab it immediately.Thanks for the suggestion. 1) I'm not sure how the GM will rule on the inclusion of eladrin. 2) The nice thing about going high elf is that the cantrip provides me with a bit of magic right out of the door - probably Minor Illusion or one of the SCAG melee cantrips - instead of having to wait until level 3 to start feeling like an arcane trickster. Sure you get more than enough cantrips between the high elf, AT, and Wiz, but for such a magical dabbler, that may be appropriate.


Have you considered just going full Wizard and just having a high dex and rogue skills?

With the right background and skill choices you can tick all the 'classic' rogue boxes (stealth, trap disarming, lockpicking etc) and have the full range of the wizard class behind you.

This is actually what Im playing at the moment (lvl 4 conjurer), I have deliberately avoided most direct damage spells in favour of utility and control stuff, though my group has a lot of heavy hitters to dish out the damage. And I gotta say I quite enjoy playing the wizard-as-a-rogue.I mentioned the possibility of going full wizard at the top in parentheses. I favor, however, having the skills, expertise, mobility, and utility that a rogue's abilities can bring. My character's aspiration is less about being a master of magic and more about being a master of the magic market. He who controls the high level spell component market controls magic!

[Rhedyn]

I would suggest either pure rogue, pure wizard, or AT 3/ Wizard X.

Rogue doesn't multi class that well beyond dips. Your damage doesn't scale well without rogue levels. You'll end up relying on cantrips for round by round damage or you are just doing far less than a normal rogue without the slots of a full wizard.

AT 3 gets the cool stuff with mage hand, and you have expertise plus all the skills. 3 levels is a lot to lose but your SA should carry you for the few levels it takes for the spell casting to take back over.

IMHO pure AT or wizard would be better.

[Gignere]

I would suggest either pure rogue, pure wizard, or AT 3/ Wizard X.

Rogue doesn't multi class that well beyond dips. Your damage doesn't scale well without rogue levels. You'll end up relying on cantrips for round by round damage or you are just doing far less than a normal rogue without the slots of a full wizard.

AT 3 gets the cool stuff with mage hand, and you have expertise plus all the skills. 3 levels is a lot to lose but your SA should carry you for the few levels it takes for the spell casting to take back over.

IMHO pure AT or wizard would be better.

Rogue to 5 is real good uncanny dodge is amazing. Yes decide whether you want to cast more or fight more and determine final split based on that.

[JellyPooga]

My worry with starting Rogue 3/Wizard 2 is that it delays my ASI/feat by two levels. I could go Rogue 4 and then Wizard 2.

Opinions vary, but on the whole I'm of the impression that ASI's/Feats are largely overrated, especially for some builds. For a Fighter or Barbarian, getting that first Feat is practically as vital as riding the single-class train to 5th level for Extra Attack. Rogues and Wizards, on the other hand, are both Classes that...well, they like having ASI's and Feats, but don't really need them.

Think about it; what are you missing by delaying that ASI a couple of levels, compared to what you gain in return?

Assuming you take Rogue 3 first, you've then got a choice at level 4. Take another level in Rogue and get;
- an ASI
- one Spell Known (illusion/enchantment only)
- one extra Spell per day.
OR you take a multiclass into Wizard and get
- Ritual Casting
- Arcane Recovery
- Six spells (of any school) in your spellbook
- 3 Cantrips
- one extra Spell per day
- the ability to use an Arcane Focus

Come level 5, you've got another choice; Rogue or Wizard. If you take your second level of Wizard at this point, you get;
- two 2nd level spell slots
- a further additional 1st level slot
- two spells for your spellbook
- your Arcane Tradition feature(s).

Compared to a 5th level Arcane Trickster, Rogue3/Wiz2 has;
- seven additional spells known
- three additional Cantrips
- one additional 1st level slot
- two 2nd level slots (useful only for up-casting at this level)
- the ability to Ritually cast any ritual spells in your book (note that AT's can't cast spells as a ritual)
- one of the very very handy Arcane Tradition 2nd level features
- the ability to use an Arcane Focus

At the price of;
- Uncanny Dodge
- 1d6 additional Sneak Attack damage
- one ASI

Even playing more Rogue-like than Wizard-like, the sheer utility and versatility this opens up is everything a Rogue can want.

Bear in mind that the lower your level, the more useful those 1st level spells will be and feel. Picking up a bunch of 1st level spells when the "current average" is 3rd level spells or higher...they're going to feel a little underwhelming; the "pew-pew" of a 1st level Magic Missile is a bit of a pop-gun compared to the "ROAR" of Fireball, for example. Grabbing a whole heap of 1st level spells at 4th level though; they'll still feel pretty relevant and being able to upcast them to 2nd level at 5th gives you that little bit of extra oomph when you need it (or even just an additional spell per day...4x1st level slots and 2x2nd level slots is really just 6 slots compared to the single class AT's 3).

[Kobard]

Good point.

[hymer]

Bear in mind that the lower your level, the more useful those 1st level spells will be and feel. Picking up a bunch of 1st level spells when the "current average" is 3rd level spells or higher...they're going to feel a little underwhelming; the "pew-pew" of a 1st level Magic Missile is a bit of a pop-gun compared to the "ROAR" of Fireball, for example. Grabbing a whole heap of 1st level spells at 4th level though; they'll still feel pretty relevant and being able to upcast them to 2nd level at 5th gives you that little bit of extra oomph when you need it (or even just an additional spell per day...4x1st level slots and 2x2nd level slots is really just 6 slots compared to the single class AT's 3).

All you say is very true, and worth noting for spell selection, too. Some first level spells don't go out of style like burning hands and magic missile: Absorb Elements, Mage Armor and Shield leap to mind.

[Talionis]

AT3/Warlock3/X

Warlock grants Ebon Vision/Devils Sight that allows you to see in Magical Darkness. Two level two casting slots that recharge on short rest. They are perfect for Shield Spell or Mirror Image. Lots of competition for Invocations always on Disguise Self. If you want ranged attacks Agonizing Blast is great for Elsritch Blast.

Hex is awesome awesome for a Rogue. Hex is okay for damage, but for a skill player like a thief being able to give disadvantage on perception checks can be game breaking.

Warlock is particularly good if you go the rest AT Rogue, but it can be good even if you throw in some Wizard levels. Armor of Agathys is fun when up cast on Rogues that can keep it up longer than most with Uncanny Dodge. Gets even better if you have a Paladin / Cleric in the party that can cast Warding Bond on you. AoA is useless if you don't ramp up level slots with either more Warlock or heavy Wizard levels. If you do this Abjurer Wizard maybe a good option.

[Ovarwa]

pure bladesinger or F1/BladesingerX and just call it Nasty Cheatsy Elvish Tricksiness