Flat-footed condition and immediate actions outside of combat.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Basically, the question is the following - can a character be flat-footed outside of combat? The definition I see in both SRD and rules compendium for this condition strictly imply a combat situation and defined through "start of combat." What about a non-combat situation?

Example 1: A wizard walks along a bridge, which suddenly collapses under him. Can said Wizard cast feather fall to avoid plummeting to his death, or is he considered flat-footed and thus can't take immediate actions?

Example 2: A rogue is trying to disarm a trap, while the rest of the party patiently waits for him to finish. Rogue fails his check, and springs a chain lightning trap which proceeds to hit several party members including a Elan Psion. Can said Psion use his immediate action to manifest damp power to save himself and the rest of the party or use his elan resilience racial ability to boost his reflex save?

[Flickerdart]

Try to think in terms of encounters, rather than simply combat. "Hey, a trap, let's see if I can disarm it" is the start of an encounter. Nobody is flat-footed against the trap because they are all aware of it.

A walking wizard is, by definition, taking his turn (since you can't take move actions outside your turn), and characters whose turn it is normally can't be flat-footed.

[Pleh]

When crossing a rickety bridge or waiting for the Rogue to disable a trap, I'd say that characters are anticipating trouble and are not flat footed.

Either way, I'd give my players the benefit of the doubt and let them use it.

[Geddy2112]

Flat footed is a combat based condition. In these circumstances, it is non combat so they should be able to use an immediate action to react to what is happening.

[denthor]

As for the wizard feather fall is a swift action spell 10 foot fall is more than enough time five foot fall does no damage.

Thief thing reflex save is right in the spell for 1/2 damage. Now if it were a wave of fatigue yes they are flat footed no save.

[Crake]

Try to think in terms of encounters, rather than simply combat. "Hey, a trap, let's see if I can disarm it" is the start of an encounter. Nobody is flat-footed against the trap because they are all aware of it.

A walking wizard is, by definition, taking his turn (since you can't take move actions outside your turn), and characters whose turn it is normally can't be flat-footed.

So a wizard walking down the road when he's ambushed isn't flat-footed either? Since he was taking his turn moving? Flat footed specifically references combat, not encounters. An encounter is when you meet the bandits, combat is when the first offensive action is stated to be taken, and is when initiative is rolled. Outside of combat people don't take move actions, they just move.

[KillianHawkeye]

As for the wizard feather fall is a swift action spell 10 foot fall is more than enough time five foot fall does no damage.

That's incorrect. Feather fall is indeed an immediate action. Swift actions can only be taken on your own turn.

[Deophaun]

When crossing a rickety bridge or waiting for the Rogue to disable a trap, I'd say that characters are anticipating trouble and are not flat footed.
If anticipation is enough, then no one infiltrating a castle would be caught flat-footed, nor would the guards after a general alarm is raised. That's a major nerf to rogues for the purpose of saving an inattentive wizard.

[ryu]

If anticipation is enough, then no one infiltrating a castle would be caught flat-footed, nor would the guards after a general alarm is raised. That's a major nerf to rogues for the purpose of saving an inattentive wizard.

Wrong for one simple reason. You're conflating immediate anticipation of danger from a known source with general anticipation of danger which could come from any direction, at any time over the next few rounds or minutes.

[Deophaun]

Wrong for one simple reason. You're conflating immediate anticipation of danger from a known source with general anticipation of danger which could come from any direction, at any time over the next few rounds or minutes.
Not really: you hear noises from behind a door, peeking through the keyhole you see a group of enemy soldiers. That's a known source. Anticipate!

Except the game doesn't work that way. Combat begins after you open the door; you're still flat-footed until you've acted. Anticipation gets you squat by RAW.

[ryu]

Not really: you hear noises from behind a door, peeking through the keyhole you see a group of enemy soldiers. That's a known source. Anticipate!

Except the game doesn't work that way. Combat begins after you open the door; you're still flat-footed until you've acted. Anticipation gets you squat by RAW.

Actually that's going to lead to you initiating with surprise round as a bonus. You knew about them while they didn't know jack all that you even existed much less your location.

[Deophaun]

Actually that's going to lead to you initiating with surprise round as a bonus. You knew about them while they didn't know jack all that you even existed much less your location.
How do you know they didn't know jack? That's not in the scenario I posted. And if they knew about you and were ready for that door to open to a fight, they are still flat-footed until they act. Anticipation gets everyone squat.

[ryu]

How do you know they didn't know jack? That's not in the scenario I posted. And if they knew about you and were ready for that door to open to a fight, they are still flat-footed until they act. Anticipation gets everyone squat.

If both sides are aware it's rolled initiative. Conflict occurs either when two hostile parties meet and are both aware, or when one hostile party first acts directly against an unaware enemy. That's how sneak attack without flanking or other combat flatfooted tricks works. It's also how you determine who acts in a surprise round or if there is any.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Guys, you are talking about combat situation at the moment which is pretty clear by RAW - from the moment the combat starts everyone is flat-footed until they've taken their turn. The question is about a non-combat situation. Also, is there any clear rules regarding to when the combat is started? Can it be started earlier?

[ryu]

Guys, you are talking about combat situation at the moment which is pretty clear by RAW - from the moment the combat starts everyone is flat-footed until they've taken their turn. The question is about a non-combat situation. Also, is there any clear rules regarding to when the combat is started? Can it be started earlier?

Assuming two hostile parties as more would just complicate things? There's really only two ways combat can start. Both parties become aware of each other at the same time and initiative is rolled, or one party is aware of the other first giving them the advantage to make the first overt hostile action. Even if the unlucky victims don't know who's attacking or even necessarily where they are, the knowledge that there is an active threat is grounds for initiative to be rolled. Do note that you can take many kinds of covert action such as laying traps, otherwise effecting the environment to your advantage, scouting for information if you've a way of doing so without raising alarm, or any number of other things. The important thing is the hapless party not being in combat mode. You can also void this entire process by fastening a small non-dangerous animal to bite you every round for low damage which continually heal off. No surprise round if you never left combat after all. You can even kill the animal if you didn't like your initiative. After all any new entrants to combat don't reroll the entire initiative table. They just roll for their place in it.

[Deophaun]

If both sides are aware it's rolled initiative. Conflict occurs either when two hostile parties meet and are both aware, or when one hostile party first acts directly against an unaware enemy. That's how sneak attack without flanking or other combat flatfooted tricks works. It's also how you determine who acts in a surprise round or if there is any.
I believe you have lost the plot.

Guys, you are talking about combat situation at the moment which is pretty clear by RAW
Which is why it was brought up: it is clear from RAW that anticipation doesn't matter, because it doesn't affect the flat-footed condition at the start of combat.

[Kuu Lightwing]

From RAW it's also clear that flat-footed condition occurs only in combat and that combat clearly has some starting point. Assuming that everybody is flat-footed outside of combat opens a whole new can of worms - specifically inability to use any immediate actions at all, unless you carry an angry hamster in your pocket.

[Deophaun]

From RAW it's also clear that flat-footed condition occurs only in combat and that combat clearly has some starting point.
Exactly; anticipation has nothing to do with the flat-footed condition. If you're never flat-footed outside of combat, you are still fully reactive even if you are oblivious.

[Elkad]

Wandering off-topic here.
But having never actually cast Feather Fall in a 3.5 game, I was just looking at it...
Why the heck did they change it from area (with weight limit) to targets?
And you can't hit missiles with it any more, just falling rocks.

[ryu]

I believe you have lost the plot.

Which is why it was brought up: it is clear from RAW that anticipation doesn't matter, because it doesn't affect the flat-footed condition at the start of combat.

No I mean initiative is rolled before the door is even opened because both sides are aware of each other. Technically if the rogue wins initiative he can take a move action to open the door and get sneak attack with a ranged weapon as I assume the guards aren't dumb enough to stand in melee range of the square on the other side of the door. I really rather doubt this is the case though because archery sucks, and a rogue smart enough to be using damaging AoE flasks probably has better and more reliable means of scouting than this.

[Deophaun]

No I mean initiative is rolled before the door is even opened because both sides are aware of each other. Technically if the rogue wins initiative he can take a move action to open the door and get sneak attack with a ranged weapon as I assume the guards aren't dumb enough to stand in melee range of the square on the other side of the door.
As I said, you lost the plot. If the rogue could get a sneak attack with the guards anticipating him, then anticipation has nothing to do with the flat-footed condition. You are attempting to argue... something... I'm not sure what, but it's sure not the point under contention.

[ryu]

As I said, you lost the plot. If the rogue could get a sneak attack with the guards anticipating him, then anticipation has nothing to do with the flat-footed condition. You are attempting to argue... something... I'm not sure what, but it's sure not the point under contention.

Simple. How long were the guards aware of the rogue and his position? If they literally laid an ambush inside the room and would've gotten a surprise round if the rogue hadn't checked they can hardly be called unprepared. You cannot be both flatfooted and waiting to ambush the thing you're flatfooted to.

[Deophaun]

Simple.
What's simple? That's not a logical response to anything you quoted.

How long were the guards aware of the rogue and his position?
I don't understand how, but you've managed to end up with a natural 1 while taking 20 on a Search check.

I'm just not going to respond to you further here, because I'm 99.99% certain that--despite quoting my text--you aren't responding to me.

[Zanos]

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation.
Seems pretty clear to me you can only be flat-footed in combat.

[Duke of Urrel]

Basically, the question is the following - can a character be flat-footed outside of combat? The definition I see in both SRD and rules compendium for this condition strictly imply a combat situation and defined through "start of combat." What about a non-combat situation?

Example 1: A wizard walks along a bridge, which suddenly collapses under him. Can said Wizard cast feather fall to avoid plummeting to his death, or is he considered flat-footed and thus can't take immediate actions?

Example 2: A rogue is trying to disarm a trap, while the rest of the party patiently waits for him to finish. Rogue fails his check, and springs a chain lightning trap which proceeds to hit several party members including a Elan Psion. Can said Psion use his immediate action to manifest damp power to save himself and the rest of the party or use his elan resilience racial ability to boost his reflex save?

I am intrigued by these questions and by the diversity of answers you have received. Here are mine.

Example 1. In my understanding, you are always caught flat-footed by attacks and accidents that befall you either (1) before you have acted for the first time on your initiative count or (2) before you have made an initiative check at all.

Being caught flat-footed is worse than being considered flat-footed, which happens when you stand on a precarious surface with less than five ranks of Balance skill. Being considered flat-footed means: (1) you cannot add your Dexterity bonus, if any, to your Armor Class; and (2) you cannot make attacks of opportunity.

In contrast, being caught flat-footed means being surprised, in which condition you cannot act at all until your first turn begins and you act for the first time on your initiative count. When you're caught flat-footed, you cannot take any action, not even an immediate action.

My recommendation for your wizard is to acquire a Ring of Feather Falling, which always works automatically.

Discussion: It intrigues me that opinions differ on whether traps that attack you catch you flat-footed or not. Creatures that attack you before you have rolled an initiative die or acted on your first initiative count catch you flat-footed; this is clearly written in the rules. But the rules nowhere state clearly what condition you are in when a trap attacks you outside of combat. The rules are also silent on your condition when you suddenly fall outside of combat.

My interpretation follows this reasoning: If being engaged in combat makes you wary, then not being engaged in combat should make you unwary. But this kind of reasoning is not the only argument to be made. What about balance, fairness, and fun? How powerful should the Feather Fall spell be? As I mentioned above, my advice is to get a Ring of Feather Falling. Some may regard this as an unfairly costly solution. (Consider, though, that even strictly by the rules as written, being bull-rushed over a precipice while you are surprised catches you flat-footed, so you are still well advised to invest in a Ring of Feather Falling.)

Example 2. In my understanding, a rogue trying to disarm a trap acts on an initiative count, because acting with awareness of enemies or any other kind of danger nearby means acting in initiative order. Indeed, if I am the dungeon master and you and your allies go looking for traps, I always have you roll initiative dice first. So if a trap-disarming rogue fails badly and triggers the trap's attack, she (and her allies) will not be caught flat-footed by it.

Indeed, if the rogue has attained the fourth level of experience, the question is moot, because at this level, the rogue gets the Uncanny Dodge special ability and adds her Dexterity bonus to her Armor Class even when she is caught flat-footed.

[Efrate]

Flat footed prevents dodge bonuses doesnt it? Doesnt that invalidate trap sense? I think thats a dodge bonus. Not that its good anyways but might matter sometimes.

Wizard on bridge, he can cast fine. Otherwise short of angry hamster all reactive everything for non combat becomes pointless. RAI VS RAW IMO.

As for the corpse, i mean, rogue, are the guards on alert? Are they hanging out playing dice? Opposed move silently vs. Their listen. Even if on alert they still need to try. If the rogue specifically told me hes not trying to be silent and making noise, and they are on alert, the guards still get a check, its just easier. Only if they are aware of the rogue do they get to do much. Even if they are ambushing they still need to be aware of whom they are ambushing. If they somehow are, and they are ambushing, have them take 20 on intiative.

[martixy]

@Duke:
You can't possibly be serious...
There is absolutely no difference in the way flat-footed works, regardless of how you acquire the condition. Caught vs considered is completely pointless semantics.
There is however a difference between being flat-footed and having your dexterity bonus denied.
The former is a strict superset of the latter. In addition to losing Dex bonus to AC, flatfooted carries the following additional penalties: Cannot make attacks of opportunity(unless you have Combat Reflexes). Cannot use immediate actions.

While this is not covered by the rules in a satisfactory and unambiguous manner, I'd rule that, you first need to be in a stressful situation or otherwise occupied, to be eligible to getting caught flat-footed(being surprised).

A bridge collapsing under the feet of a wizard walking upon it will become his focus of attention immediately.
A bridge collapsing under the bum of a wizard who is preparing his spells will catch him flat-footed.

[Duke of Urrel]

@Duke:
You can't possibly be serious...
There is absolutely no difference in the way flat-footed works, regardless of how you acquire the condition. Caught vs considered is completely pointless semantics.

I am serious. What I have stated above checks out.


There is however a difference between being flat-footed and having your dexterity bonus denied.
The former is a strict superset of the latter.

This is true.


In addition to losing Dex bonus to AC, flatfooted carries the following additional penalties: Cannot make attacks of opportunity(unless you have Combat Reflexes). Cannot use immediate actions.

This is not quite true.

Being considered flat-footed does not mean you can't take any actions at all; it only means that you can't make attacks of opportunity. The flat-footed condition, as defined by the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted), doesn't entail the inability to take any actions at all, only the inability to make attacks of opportunity. When you are on a precarious surface, you are considered flat-footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) unless you have five or more ranks of Balance skill. (The same words appear on page 90 of the Rules Compendium.) You can still take actions during your turn, and you can still take immediate actions outside your turn. But you can't do this while you're surprised, that is, caught flat-footed. When you're surprised, you can't take any actions at all until your first turn begins.



While this is not covered by the rules in a satisfactory and unambiguous manner, I'd rule that, you first need to be in a stressful situation or otherwise occupied, to be eligible to getting caught flat-footed(being surprised).

A bridge collapsing under the feet of a wizard walking upon it will become his focus of attention immediately.
A bridge collapsing under the bum of a wizard who is preparing his spells will catch him flat-footed.

I can see that everybody draws the line somewhere. I am still curious to see what other opinions people have about whether you're generally flat-footed or generally alert outside of combat.

[Crake]

~snip~

Your use of the words caught and considered confuse me. There is literally no mechanical difference between the two. In one case you are flat footed, and someone has caught you as such, in the other case you aren't really flat footed, but are treated as if you are.

Yes it is a little strange that balance makes you flat footed, meaning you cannot use immediate actions or get attacks of opportunity (unless you have combat reflexes), though one can simply argue that you're too focused on trying to balance to be able to react to situations (such as by using an immediate action, or making attacks of opportunity, hence losing dex to AC to begin with.

[Duke of Urrel]

Your use of the words caught and considered confuse me. There is literally no mechanical difference between the two. In one case you are flat footed, and someone has caught you as such, in the other case you aren't really flat footed, but are treated as if you are.

Yes it is a little strange that balance makes you flat footed, meaning you cannot use immediate actions or get attacks of opportunity (unless you have combat reflexes), though one can simply argue that you're too focused on trying to balance to be able to react to situations (such as by using an immediate action, or making attacks of opportunity, hence losing dex to AC to begin with.

I am not convinced that this alleged rule, "balance makes you flat footed, meaning you cannot use immediate actions" actually exists. Please help me out here if I'm wrong, but the description of flat-footedness in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted) makes no mention of immediate actions, free actions, or any action at all except attacks of opportunity. The same description appears on page 35 of the Rules Compendium.

The inability to take actions of any kind belongs to being flat-footed only in the sense of being surprised, i.e., what I have referred to above as being caught flat-footed. This phrase is not my own invention; the rule books often use the phrase "caught flat-footed," for example in the descriptions of the rogue and barbarian classes. Being caught flat-footed is also the commonest way to be flat-footed, so I can understand why some people believe flat-footedness always entails the inability to act, or at least the inability to act outside your turn. But this is not so. It's not true when you're standing on a precarious surface with four or fewer ranks of Balance skill, in which case you are considered flat-footed. Again, this is the phraseology of the rulebooks and the SRD, not my own invention. When you're balancing, you are flat-footed only in the less common, but also stricter sense of the term, which is flat-footed as defined by the SRD and the Rules Compendium, as follows:


A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

I had no idea that what I said above was so controversial. I do understand, though, that whereas flat-footedness in the common sense of the term is not the same as flat-footedness in the strict sense of the term, it's usually okay to assume that flat-footedness is what it's commonly understood to be.

A similar admission can be made in regard to the rules of the Polymorph Subschool, which appeared on pages 95 ad 96 of the Player's Handbook II and were later added to the Player's Handbook (in the final issue of 2012). You can safely ignore most of these rules most of the time, because the specific rules that appear in the descriptions of most spells of the Polymorph subschool negate most of the general rules of the subschool. But these general rules do apply to one spell: the Baleful Polymorph spell.

Similarly, flat-footedness in the strict sense of the word is a rare condition indeed. It's a condition that you're in (as far as I know) only when you're on a precarious surface and you have fewer than five ranks in Balance skill. You can safely assume most of the time that flat-footedness entails surprise, that is, the inability to act until your first (or next) turn begins (or the inability to act outside your turn). But this is not true of being flat-footed while you are on a precarious surface with four or fewer ranks in Balance skill. In this condition, you can act during your turn and take immediate actions outside your turn, but you can't make attacks of opportunity.

But despite all the words I've written on this matter (to bolster my own ego, mainly, but also because I believe I'm right), I think it's pretty trivial.

I am much more concerned about what people feel about my assumption (wholly outside the rules) that one is generally flat-footed outside of combat. I feel that this is an unpopular view, and this concerns me. I don't want to hold unpopular assumptions about or interpretations of the rules. I would like to know how many people think one should generally not be flat-footed except when one has been surprised by a creature, but neither before nor after this time. I can see that this is an allowable interpretation of the rules, and I can easily be persuaded to abandon my earlier assumption – unless my earlier assumption turns out to be popular, after all.

[Menzath]

I see lots of in combat references, but not a while lot of what the OP is asking for.

For one feather fall has the clause
"You may even cast this spell when it isn't your turn."
Making that moot as to when you can or cannot cast it.

As for being able to react to a trap.
Is it detected? Yes?
Then the trap "encounter" has started. It is a known source of danger you can react to.

But for the bridge scenario let's say it's a different spell. Does said caster know the bridge might be cut, or is old and decrepit or rickety or has any other reason to believe the bridge might give out and be on guard unless the PC says otherwise? No?
Then he's SOL down the creek.

[martixy]

@Duke:
The original definition of "flat-footed" does not mention immediate actions, because there were added LATER.
As in not the same book where flat-footed first appeared.
Can you not realize the world works in ways different than you imagine? WotC doesn't have the power to magically alter the text in every printed copy sold.

Veering off to the topic at hand, if you can't find a neat solution, the rule is, always look for the next best thing, the least silly option out of your remaining ones.

And having characters be unable to react to anything while out of combat is most definitely NOT the least silly option.

Another potential solution I see is to force a flat initiative roll. Say 10. If you roll below, you can't react, if you roll above, go right ahead. Sadly it has the drawback of adding another, almost pointless roll to the game.

[Deophaun]

I am not convinced that this alleged rule, "balance makes you flat footed, meaning you cannot use immediate actions" actually exists.
It does, in the RC:


IMMEDIATE ACTION
An immediate action consumes a tiny amount of time. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time during a round, even when it isn’t your turn. Using an immediate action on your turn counts as your swift action for that turn. If you use an immediate action when it isn’t your turn, you can’t use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn. You can’t use an immediate action when you’re flat-footed.

[Duke of Urrel]

It does, in the RC:

Thank you for this. This does change things!

So it turns out that people on precarious surfaces with fewer than five ranks of Balance skill cannot take immediate actions! Well, how about that! Too bad if they should fall, then. Presumably they can still speak outside their turns, but that is about all. So my distinction between being considered flat-footed and being caught flat-footed has diminished to next to nothing. I shall have to revise my notes! And I shall have to read the Rules Compendium more carefully. There always turns out to be more new stuff in that book than I realize.

Thanks again, Deophaun. And you were both right, Crake and Martixy. I didn't expect to be wrong about this little side issue, but I was and now I can correct myself. As I've often confessed before, THIS is why I read these threads!

Looking back on this thread, I see that Geddy2112, Zanos, and Martixy have all come down solidly in favor of the rule that flat-footedness is not the default condition except in combat after you have already started your first turn; on the contrary, the default condition is always being able to add your Dexterity bonus to your Armor Class, both in or out of combat, except when you are flat-footed, which may be either when you're surprised or when you're on a precarious surface with fewer than five ranks of Balance skill.

So I shall recant what I wrote above and declare myself satisfied with the reading of the rules recommended by Geddy2112, Zanos, and Martixy. It makes Balance skill just a little more important, which I like. It makes characters generally less vulnerable to accidents, such as sudden falls, attack traps, and rolling rocks, because these things are not creatures, do not roll initiative dice, and therefore do not "surprise" you in the strict sense of the rules, so that they don't make you flat-footed. (The dungeon master in me is far from disappointed about this; on the contrary, he is now eager to put more of these hazards in the path of his players than ever before, confident that he will add to their frustration, but not significantly to their chance of untimely death.) Finally, this reading of the rules is fully in line with the rule that everybody can also make Reflex saves outside of combat, so that attack traps and saving-throw traps are more equal.

So my revised answer to Kuu Lightwing is that his wizard on a collapsing bridge can go ahead and cast that Feather Fall spell. But if the wizard had been balancing on a beam with fewer than five points of Balance skill, he would be out of luck, just as he would be if a bugbear surprised him and bull-rushed him off the bridge.

[Deophaun]

Thank you for this. This does change things!
You're welcome. Without that, I actually thought you had the better argument, but I went to the RC at martixy's comment because that did reprint the flat-footed rules after immediate actions were introduced.

It makes sense in hindsight that WotC would have put that exception in the rules for immediate actions when they were first introduced (you can also see it in Complete Arcane) instead of under flat-footed for the reason martixy mentioned.

[Crake]

So my revised answer to Kuu Lightwing is that his wizard on a collapsing bridge can go ahead and cast that Feather Fall spell. But if the wizard had been balancing on a beam with fewer than five points of Balance skill, he would be out of luck, just as he would be if a bugbear surprised him and bull-rushed him off the bridge.

To be fair, when the wizard falls, he's not actually balancing anymore, meaning he can cast all the immediate actions he wants. He couldn't however cast feather fall on a friend that fell.

I'm actually personally an advocate for flat footedness outside of combat, because it seems silly to me that the action of someone attacking you REMOVES your dex to AC, but at the same time I think it's silly that walking across a clearly rickety bridge, you don't get to use an immediate action to cast feather fall, so I think it's more to do with the lack of comprehensiveness in the flat footed rules.

[Zombimode]

Thank you for this. This does change things!

It is also in the SRD, under Immediate Actions:

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

Emphasis mine.

[ryu]

To be fair, when the wizard falls, he's not actually balancing anymore, meaning he can cast all the immediate actions he wants. He couldn't however cast feather fall on a friend that fell.

I'm actually personally an advocate for flat footedness outside of combat, because it seems silly to me that the action of someone attacking you REMOVES your dex to AC, but at the same time I think it's silly that walking across a clearly rickety bridge, you don't get to use an immediate action to cast feather fall, so I think it's more to do with the lack of comprehensiveness in the flat footed rules.

And this ladies and gentlemen is why I respond with hamsters and continual healing. Either we have a reasonable agreement about when flatfooted can and cannot occur, or I will use demonstrably true RAW to become immune to it.

[Zombimode]

Either we have a reasonable agreement about when flatfooted can and cannot occur, or I will use demonstrably true RAW to become immune to it.

Demonstrably true RAW? Your hamster idea?

First, Show me how having a rodent in your pocket will programmatically (because that is what you Need here) result in you being always in combat. It Needs to happen without DM adjucation.
I'll wait.

Second, how is your "master plan" not defeated by the DM simply saying: "your hamster doesn't attack you anymore"?

[ryu]

Demonstrably true RAW? Your hamster idea?

First, Show me how having a rodent in your pocket will programmatically (because that is what you Need here) result in you being always in combat. It Needs to happen without DM adjucation.
I'll wait.

Second, how is your "master plan" not defeated by the DM simply saying: "your hamster doesn't attack you anymore"?

Oh you want to play hardball? Undead hamster with a programmed task of biting every round. As attack actions are being made every round upon a creature, combat is occurring.

[Zombimode]

As attack actions are being made every round upon a creature, combat is occurring.

Citation needed.

[ryu]

Citation needed.

That's literally what combat is. You literally cannot make an attack against a creature that survives and have not combat.

[Kuu Lightwing]

If I'm not mistaken, an attack action is defined in combat, therefore you can't attack out of combat... I mean, it entered the silly territory a long time ago, so why stop there...

[Zombimode]

That's literally what combat is. You literally cannot make an attack against a creature that survives and have not combat.

So you actually DON'T have a "demonstrably true RAW" method here, right?

And no, "my personally programmed undead pet nagging inconsequentially at my toe" is not literally what combat is.


Bottom line is that while it is clear by the rules what happens at the start of a combat, when exactly a combat Encounter occurs is not codified by the rules.
And there is no Need for that, anyway. Most People know what a combat is and can correctly identify a combat Encounter as such.

[Duke of Urrel]

To be fair, when the wizard falls, he's not actually balancing anymore, meaning he can cast all the immediate actions he wants. He couldn't however cast feather fall on a friend that fell.

Good observation, Crake! Thank you.


And this ladies and gentlemen is why I respond with hamsters and continual healing. Either we have a reasonable agreement about when flatfooted can and cannot occur, or I will use demonstrably true RAW to become immune to it.

As we all know, the area of overlap between the RAW and what we call "reasonable" is not always a very big area.

I am leaning toward an all-or-nothing general rule about flat-footedness outside of combat, and I am also leaning toward the side of nothing. There could be exceptions to this rule, but I think it seems reasonable to me now to assume that you're (almost) never flat-footed outside of combat, just as you (almost) always can make a Reflex save outside of combat.

In fact, why not use the few cases in which you can't make Reflex saves as a starting point for creating a list of exceptional situations outside of combat in which you are flat-footed?

There are surprisingly few situations in which the rules actually forbid you to make Reflex saves, that is, require your Reflex save to fail automatically. You can make a Reflex save even if you are helpless (asleep, magically held, or paralyzed), immobilized (that is, unable to leave the space that you occupy), petrified, or pinned. I have counted no more than three conditions under which you are forbidden to make a Reflex save.

The following is my summary of the conditions that prohibit Reflex saves.

1. The first condition is lacking a Dexterity score. A few Plant creatures, notably shriekers and violet fungi, have no Dexterity score and are therefore forbidden to make Reflex saves. In effect, these creatures make Reflex saves that automatically fail.

Unattended objects do not lack Dexterity scores. On the contrary, every unattended magic item has a Dexterity score of zero. It therefore makes Reflex saves, but because its Dexterity score is maximally low, it adds a maximally poor Dexterity modifier of -5.

2. The second condition is lacking room to move in order to evade, because you are either bound with rope or squeezing through a tight space.

3. The third condition – by far the commonest condition, I think – is running or moving recklessly toward a covered pit trap. I consider you to be moving recklessly while you either run or charge.

So if you (2) don't have any room to dodge or (3) run recklessly toward an attack trap, we may decide that you're flat-footed, even outside of combat. I'll leave condition (1) out of consideration, because I think violet fungi should always be able to make attacks of opportunity.

In conclusion, you can usually leave that Undead attack hamster at home.

[ryu]

Good observation, Crake! Thank you.



As we all know, the area of overlap between the RAW and what we call "reasonable" is not always a very big area.

I am leaning toward an all-or-nothing general rule about flat-footedness outside of combat, and I am also leaning toward the side of nothing. There could be exceptions to this rule, but I think it seems reasonable to me now to assume that you're (almost) never flat-footed outside of combat, just as you (almost) always can make a Reflex save outside of combat.

In fact, why not use the few cases in which you can't make Reflex saves as a starting point for creating a list of exceptional situations outside of combat in which you are flat-footed?

There are surprisingly few situations in which the rules actually forbid you to make Reflex saves, that is, require your Reflex save to fail automatically. You can make a Reflex save even if you are helpless (asleep, magically held, or paralyzed), immobilized (that is, unable to leave the space that you occupy), petrified, or pinned. I have counted no more than three conditions under which you are forbidden to make a Reflex save.

The following is my summary of the conditions that prohibit Reflex saves.

1. The first condition is lacking a Dexterity score. A few Plant creatures, notably shriekers and violet fungi, have no Dexterity score and are therefore forbidden to make Reflex saves. In effect, these creatures make Reflex saves that automatically fail.

Unattended objects do not lack Dexterity scores. On the contrary, every unattended magic item has a Dexterity score of zero. It therefore makes Reflex saves, but because its Dexterity score is maximally low, it adds a maximally poor Dexterity modifier of -5.

2. The second condition is lacking room to move in order to evade, because you are either bound with rope or squeezing through a tight space.

3. The third condition – by far the commonest condition, I think – is running or moving recklessly toward a covered pit trap. I consider you to be moving recklessly while you either run or charge.

So if you (2) don't have any room to dodge or (3) run recklessly toward an attack trap, we may decide that you're flat-footed, even outside of combat. I'll leave condition (1) out of consideration, because I think violet fungi should always be able to make attacks of opportunity.

In conclusion, you can usually leave that Undead attack hamster at home.

Yes I know that RAW and reasonable are almost always antithetical to each other. This is why I phrased it as either or. You wanna be reasonable? Okay lets find a agreement point. You wanna RAW? Congratulations. You probably lose because I've been doing this longer than most and have an excessively large number of loopholes and tricks memorized.

[KillianHawkeye]

If anything, having a small, murderous rodent in your pocket would distract you from other potential dangers rather than making you more ready to react.

[ryu]

If anything, having a small, murderous rodent in your pocket would distract you from other potential dangers rather than making you more ready to react.

There's rules for that. They say I can't take 10. Considering I can restrain, control or otherwise incapacitate the hamster prior to any action I'd get to take ten on anyways? Done deal.

[Crake]

There's rules for that. They say I can't take 10. Considering I can restrain, control or otherwise incapacitate the hamster prior to any action I'd get to take ten on anyways? Done deal.

You'd also be constantly distracted, taking a -5 penalty to spot and listen checks, so you'll most likely not actually spot an ambush whey they DO happen. They might not necessarily get a surprise round, but they can still attack from hiding, and you can't react to an attack you didn't see coming.

[ryu]

You'd also be constantly distracted, taking a -5 penalty to spot and listen checks, so you'll most likely not actually spot an ambush whey they DO happen. They might not necessarily get a surprise round, but they can still attack from hiding, and you can't react to an attack you didn't see coming.

Ah but I can, because I'm not flat footed, and thus immediate action abrupt jaunt at low levels, and crafted contingent spells at high ones.

[Crake]

Ah but I can, because I'm not flat footed, and thus immediate action abrupt jaunt at low levels, and crafted contingent spells at high ones.

When are you going to abrupt jaunt? When the arrow has already stuck inside your body? I think it's a bit late by then, and before that, you may not have been flat footed, but you didn't know the arrow was there until it was stuck inside your back, so.... too bad so sad?

[Pleh]

When are you going to abrupt jaunt? When the arrow has already stuck inside your body? I think it's a bit late by then, and before that, you may not have been flat footed, but you didn't know the arrow was there until it was stuck inside your back, so.... too bad so sad?

Since when is mundane arrow>magic? How do you jaunt before an attack you didn't know about hits you?

Magic.

[Deophaun]

Since when is mundane arrow>magic? How do you jaunt before an attack you didn't know about hits you?

Magic.
Unless you're putting cover between yourself and the archer, that jaunt does nothing. You either jaunt before the attack roll, in which case there was no attack and the action can be retasked to... attack you... or you jaunt after the attack roll, in which case there are already a bunch of mechanical dominoes falling that don't stop just because you're now a thousand miles away on a different plane in a box made of walls of force.

[ryu]

Unless you're putting cover between yourself and the archer, that jaunt does nothing. You either jaunt before the attack roll, in which case there was no attack and the action can be retasked to... attack you... or you jaunt after the attack roll, in which case there are already a bunch of mechanical dominoes falling that don't stop just because you're now a thousand miles away on a different plane in a box made of walls of force.

Which is why you jaunt pre-attack roll behind the biggest sack of HP/ defense you have in party. Good bets would be the druid's bear, the druid, and the cleric. Fighter if you've got one. Let him feel useful by doing his job.

[Crake]

Which is why you jaunt pre-attack roll behind the biggest sack of HP/ defense you have in party. Good bets would be the druid's bear, the druid, and the cleric. Fighter if you've got one. Let him feel useful by doing his job.

That only provides a soft cover bonus of +4 to AC, which is completely negated by a 2500gp item, goggles of foefnding which ignore cover bonuses to AC. But again, you can't abrupt jaunt before an attack roll if you don't realise the attack roll is being made.