Wizard Tradition: Theurge changes

[Theodoxus]

I'm interested in playing a Theurge, but after researching the option, there's a lot of backlash regarding the abilities - most specifically, the 14th level wizard ability that grants the 17th level cleric ability.

Now, there's a few combinations that are particularly strong as well - such as the Tempest domains' maximized lightning and thunder damage - but for most of your career, it's 1 per rest - so probably not too bad (and easily obtained by a 2 level dip, which also grants heavy armor and weapon proficiencies - a decent compromise, IMO).

What I wanted to address specifically was the 14th level ability as well as Spell Mastery.

First, in keeping with the other arcane tradition abilities, I think the 14th should replicate a lower level ability. As such, I don't think it would be out of line to grant the 8th level Arcane/Knowledge/Light ability of adding spellcasting modifier to damage. One could argue that the ability to cast curative magics on top of force walls and disintegrates is good enough, to not also have permanent flight or maximized heals... The damage bonus is on par with Evocation, but comes at a much later level.

Second, in an attempt to keep the theurge from being a better healer than any cleric, Spell Mastery would be updated to read "spells chosen must be on the Wizard's spell list as well as in the characters spell book." This would keep the wizard from getting unlimited Cure Wounds and Lesser Restorations. One shouldn't be better at relieving an entire village of some rampant disease than a Life cleric...


Would you consider these two changes to be balanced or would they make the tradition underpowered and never utilized?

[xyianth]

I don't like it. If you are going to give the 8th level feature of a domain, it should match the domain you chose. Cherry picking the +mod to damage, changing the mod to int, and making it apply to all spells feels like you are making it stronger than it is for clerics/evocation wizards. The Theurge tradition is a problem because of far more than just the 14th level feature. It was lazily designed; If a theurge tradition is needed (I firmly believe it isn't) then it should have been implemented as a prestige class. That way you could trade spell progression as a wizard for more cleric casting options. Stealing (and improving upon) cleric domain features is a cop out that has the side effect of making the wizard a better cleric than the cleric.

TL;DR: Cleric domain features were designed for clerics. The Theurge tradition is a bad idea because those features were never intended to be found on a full wizard chassis. The 14th level feature is a problem, but it isn't the only one.

[Falcon X]

These are just my two cents:
A. The wizard is already overpowered. Getting the cleric's ability a few levels earlier won't push them much higher. It's within the realm of normal variability.
It's the access to cleric spells that can make the difference. I would try limiting that. Here are a couple proposals:
- Purchase domain spells as stated. After that, you must pick a single spell school that you can purchase cleric spells from.
- Purchase domain spells as stated. You may purchase one cleric spell per spell level after that.
B. Spell Mastery: I think your solution is a good one. However, as you don't get it till VERY late levels, it likely won't be as important. The cleric will still be a better healer in battle, and 5e tends to not care about breaking characters once they hit that level anyway.
That is all to say: That is a good rule mod, but I wouldn't care in my home game.

[Theodoxus]

Yes, but there's an opportunity cost for choosing Theurge which doesn't seem to factor into discussions.

The first is you're sacrificing quicker access to wizard spells by taking a cleric spell every level (if your intention is to open up additional cleric spell choices). Most players I know use the 2 spells per level automatically known to grab the spells they consider 'must haves' for their wizard. Reducing that to one 1 for their career basically puts the wizard on par with sorcerer for their own spells - yes, opening up cleric options certainly helps, but there is a reason the player chose wizard and not cleric, correct? There is no guarantee you'll find scrolls or spellbooks containing the missing spells you're giving up - especially if you have a tightfisted DM or one who just doesn't think about wizard resources.

The second is you're trading away other wizarding tradition options. The two that are generally considered the strongest; abjuration and divination, offer options no cleric domain can recreate.

We already have a cleric domain that replicates a lot of the feel of wizard, without the struggle to find the spells they want. I see no reason why a wizard can't also tap into that sentiment. Given that the Theurge obtains the cleric features so much later - at level 6, gaining the first level features; in most games, that's upwards of 10 sessions later. At level 10, gaining the 6th level feature; again, in most games, that's upwards of another 8-10 sessions later. if one wanted the features as soon as possible, one would play a cleric!

You might be right, in regards to my suggestion on the 14th level ability. Perhaps it should be based on the domain itself. I would hazard, given the direction of the PDF itself, most theurges would pick Arcane, Knowledge or Light - and thus would get the +Mod to damage. Those that pick more martial domains would get the bonus damage to their weapon attacks... But again, if damage to attacks was desired, I suspect one would have picked an Arcane Cleric instead - gaining it 6 levels sooner. But it is definitely a lot more balanced than all the 17th level domain abilities!

TBH, I think it does what it's trying to do fairly well. Cleric spells can only be obtained with the free spells per level. At most, that's 19 cleric spells - and other than grabbing the essential and rituals, it's pretty expensive. The 3.P theurge did similar. Sure, make it a prestige class - but we've had all of one UA on prestige classes - I think they kind of flopped. Even if this concept wasn't well executed in your estimation, it points homebrewers in a direction for mixing two classes more seamlessly.

After dealing with gestalt, the theurge is a good compromise between cleric and wizard without being cleric//wizard.

[xyianth]

Obviously, only you can know if something is balanced in your campaign. If the DM is preventing a wizard from acquiring new spells, then that constitutes a significant nerf to wizards on its own, regardless of the tradition chosen. (Not saying it is a bad idea or anything, but it is significantly reducing the power of the wizard class)

My real point of contention is how little thought went into the theurge tradition. For a contrasting example, look at the arcane cleric. That is much better designed as a theurge. Why? Because it mixes the spells without reducing the concept of class based spell lists to a bookkeeping exercise. Because it has features that are designed to be used in conjunction with the class it belongs to. Because it feels like it had more forethought than simply "screw it; replace the tradition features with the domain features and let's call it a day."

Can it work? Sure, anything can work. I think the very fact that it basically requires the DM to prevent the use of one of the class's fundamental class features to even approach balance is what some would call a 'clue' though. Personally I would much prefer a new tradition that granted some cleric-like spells and some cleric-like features as that would at least mean that those spell choices and features were designed to work on a wizard.

And even supposing that all the above is ignored, from a story perspective, what exactly is the theurge tradition accomplishing that an arcane or knowledge cleric wouldn't adequately cover? In 5e, there is no such thing as divine or arcane magic anymore. It is all just magic. The concept of a theurge doesn't really fit with that. And if the intent is to merge together cleric and wizard class powers/spells, well there are already rules for multiclassing that don't give up slots. The theurge tradition as written seems to me just a way for someone who wants to play a multiclass wizard/cleric to not have to pay the cost of that concept. (delayed progression into higher level spells)

All that said, I don't believe in BadWrongFun. If you think it can be made to work, and that it will be fun to play, I say go for it. Just because I don't allow it at my table doesn't mean you can't use it at yours. If someone came to my table wanting to use the theurge tradition, I would rather work with them to find a better way to express that concept, even if it means homebrewing something. (I have tons of homebrew options, adding more is not an issue for me)