Question on Claw attacks/hands

[Bad Wolf]

Does a creature with claw attacks that is not expressly noted to have fine manipulation able to use a weapon?

Specifically, I'm talking about the Murderjack. It can cast spells as a bard, so it's able to cast spells. Not sure about the weapon, though.

[Thurbane]

I think it's pretty much always a DMs call.

Are we talking this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040828a) Murderjack?

[Bad Wolf]

Yup. Don't know of any other.

[Inevitability]

It depends. There's clawed creatures that explicitly can use weapons (kobolds), and there's clawed creatures that explicitly can't (such as the formian worker).

Try to follow common sense, to the degree that such a thing is applicable to D&D.

[Irreverent Fool]

It has to be a DM call. There are too many creatures with claw-like appendages that don't say specifically. One can usually work it out or come up with a reasonable explanation.

In this case, the Murderjack has hands with fingers. Although it has talons, it still has fingers. Nowhere does it say it isn't capable of fine manipulation.


Its long arms each end in three-fingered hands tipped with long, curved talons

A Rakasha also has hands with claws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm), but is clearly capable of using a weapon (even though its hands are backwards.)

The Murderjack also has 15 intelligence and is capable of using language. Creatures of the Fey type have proficiency with simple weapons. All of these factors seem to suggest that it would be capable of using weapons if it chooses.

[Thurbane]

Yup. Don't know of any other.

Wasn't sure if there might b a Pathfinder creature of the same name. :smallwink:

I think it's pretty safe to assume that a creature that casts spells (and as such, uses somatic and material components, which require fine manipulation) should have no issue wielding weapons.

[KillianHawkeye]

I would say this issue is less about claws and more whether or not the creature has hands (or a similar enough appendage). Like, a fiendish monstrous spider has claws, but they're at the end of its pointy spider legs. Or maybe something has pincer claws like a giant crab or monstrous scorpion. It can grip and lift things, but they're still not hands. No hands = no fine manipulation.

Exceptions exist, obviously, like maybe some tentacles (and yes, you can put claws on tentacles).

[John Longarrow]

Something to note, the monster IS listed wearing leather armor. From the description I'd say it is putting this on itself (unlike monsters used as guards that have another put armor ON them) so it would have to have rather fine motor skills. I'd go with can use weapons.

[Thurbane]

On a side-note, I was previously unaware of this creature. Wow.

15HD, good stat mods, 7d6 sneak attack, 10th level bard casting, plus other goodies...CR 9?

I'm always suspicious of monsters with CR less than their caster level, but when you throw the sneak attack of a 13th level rogue in there?

I'm confident a decently optimized 9th level could take it, but still CR 9 seems a little low to me.

[KillianHawkeye]

Also, isn't it basically a Slender Man with forest camouflage?

[Inevitability]

Also, isn't it basically a Slender Man with forest camouflage?

It's Slender Man with forest camouflage if he was also a mid-level bard with inflated sneak attack progression. So, slightly scarier than 'absolutely terrifying'.