OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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The Giant

2017-01-17, 04:12 PM

New comic is up.

Kalmegil

2017-01-17, 04:14 PM

This is gonna get worse before it gets better, isn't it?

Jasdoif

2017-01-17, 04:15 PM

I hereby nominate the Mechane with the Navigator's Got Nerves of Adamantine award.

Jay R

2017-01-17, 04:15 PM

Looks like Elan's 7th grade gym teacher was right after all.

Valerem

2017-01-17, 04:15 PM

Wait. We know Roy is intelligent due to it often being noted. But from this page, he's gotta be pretty wise as well. To pick up on the fact that the Rock Bombardment whilst in the middle of a pitched battle against two Frost Giants? That shows that he has very good ears... and Listen isn't on the Fighter's Skill list!

Edit: Then again. Rich has admitted he hardly ever references 3.5 any more to make sure he gets everything right...

dancrilis

2017-01-17, 04:16 PM

Well it is working out so far ... we will have to see where this goes.

Wait. We know Roy is intelligent due to it often being noted. But from this page, he's gotta be pretty wise as well. To pick up on the fact that the Rock Bombardment whilst in the middle of a pitched battle against two Frost Giants? That shows that he has very good ears... and Listen isn't on the Fighter's Skill list!

Always had half-way decent Wisdom. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)

Shining Wrath

2017-01-17, 04:17 PM

If "anyone have strong feelings about which way I should go around this next mountain" is not foreshadowing, I miss my bet.

Also, the ship is sinking lower, which means if the Mechane needed to take the normal route because it was the lowest elevation - guess what?

Also, "What the hell, Andi?" is not how you address your captain who just staged a popular mutiny.

The Shining Wrath future plot prediction of "Turning off the pass doesn't work, Bandana wakes up and saves the day, Andi and Bandana reconcile to a degree, but Andi leaves the ship" is slightly more likely.

SethoMarkus

2017-01-17, 04:17 PM

Well, Bandana seems still alive, crew seems more concerned with her well-being than with listening to Andi, and seems like they won't have to die in a fire for them to turn against Andi...

Promising...

Maybe?

Kish

2017-01-17, 04:17 PM

I regret that this is not, as it should be, the death-knell to all "the crew turned on Bandana in unison because Bandana's orders were so overtly preposterous and Andi is the embodiment of their will, therefore Andi is in the right here" arguments.

(I'd also like to point out that Andi's "turn!" order had one immediate consequence before we get to the longer-term consequences: Elan's spell fizzling. Whether that's good or bad for the crew is left as an exercise for the reader.)

Valerem

2017-01-17, 04:19 PM

Isn't there a thread that tracks the stats of the individual characters?

Shining Wrath

2017-01-17, 04:19 PM

I hereby nominate the Mechane with the Navigator's Got Nerves of Adamantine award.

Uh - the Mechane's Navigator is nominated for the Nerves of Adamantine award?

137beth

2017-01-17, 04:19 PM

I love the juxtaposition of how the Order used to act in OtOotPCs with how they are now.

Peelee

2017-01-17, 04:20 PM

Well, if the helmsman needs to take executive action here, then would this be the Flight of the Navigator?

I regret that this is not, as it should be, the death-knell to all "the crew turned on Bandana in unison because Bandana's orders were so overtly preposterous and Andi is the embodiment of their will, therefore Andi is in the right here" arguments.

I choose to believe it will be the death knell. Call me an optimist.

Spellbreaker26

2017-01-17, 04:20 PM

Bandana's alive, phew.

Roy's being absolutely brutal with that crack at V. What would you even call that spell, Alumnicide?

Oh, and thanks Andi, for ruining Elan's moment of impressing Roy. You monster.

Peelee

2017-01-17, 04:24 PM

Roy's being absolutely brutal with that crack at V. What would you even call that spell, Alumnicide?

For a second, I misread that, and thought that it would wipe out an entire element.

Jasdoif

2017-01-17, 04:24 PM

Uh - the Mechane's Navigator is nominated for the Nerves of Adamantine award?If that's valid, yeah! I wasn't sure if the bylaws on ships that "always arrive in the nick of time" required such awards be issued to the ship itself; whereas if the ship couldn't accept awards of its own behalf the airship guild regulations would transfer the award directly to responsible personnel.

I think.

Griffincat

2017-01-17, 04:25 PM

Thank you, sir. Darkest before dawn and all.

denthor

2017-01-17, 04:26 PM

Agnostik

2017-01-17, 04:27 PM

Those last two panels tho. :smalltongue: I smell a spin-off. :smallbiggrin:

No, wait, that's something different I smell. I gotta go.

bfl

2017-01-17, 04:30 PM

For a second, I misread that, and thought that it would wipe out an entire element.

I see what you did there

HandofShadows

2017-01-17, 04:31 PM

Well they do run away, when it's the smart thing to do. But otherwise I think Roy is correct. :smallamused:

Shining Wrath

2017-01-17, 04:32 PM

I see what you did there

I thought it was candid.

Ionbound

2017-01-17, 04:39 PM

Well, if the helmsman needs to take executive action here, then would this be the Flight of the Navigator?

I choose to believe it will be the death knell. Call me an optimist.

I believe it is always the helmsman's prerogative to take executive action, should the situation call for it.

Bobbybobby99

2017-01-17, 04:41 PM

Ha! "What the hell, Andy!" indeed.

Psyren

2017-01-17, 04:45 PM

No Roy, wrong conclusion. You're distracted, so it's understandable, but still - finish those losers and hightail it to the helm.

I love the juxtaposition of how the Order used to act in OtOotPCs with how they are now.

DCF really.

Hamste

2017-01-17, 04:47 PM

At least they got out of the range of the giants and forced them to stop tossing rocks. That is one bright side even if they are sinking.

Olinser

2017-01-17, 04:48 PM

At least this should finally destroy any argument that the rest of the crew was behind Andi.

Stabbey

2017-01-17, 04:48 PM

Ah ha ha. Roy is technically correct. HIS team doesn't do those things anymore. Unfortunately...

Ganbatte

2017-01-17, 04:50 PM

Man that mechanic girl is so whiny and annoying as ****. How did she even get to survive/stick in a pirate ship's adventures so long is beyond me, ready to turn tails at the mere sign of trouble.

Hope she gets kicked off the ship or something.

elros

2017-01-17, 04:51 PM

The Order of the Stick has evolved, but at least some things haven't changed.
"We'll get through because we're the ones who are too dumb to know when to quit" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)

Guess that's a lesson for the crew to learn!

ti'esar

2017-01-17, 04:55 PM

:roy: "Or my wizard killed them all and everyone they went to high school with, but let's not dwell on that."

Ouch. :smallbiggrin:

TRH

2017-01-17, 04:55 PM

Ah ha ha. Roy is technically correct. HIS team doesn't do those things anymore. Unfortunately...

And this is why later editions don't bother with hirelings. They're more trouble than they're worth.

DarthPenance

2017-01-17, 04:59 PM

Well, I hope at least Elan sees what's happening and can talk to the crew since he is the one that knows the more about them, he could also heal Bandana

JumboWheat01

2017-01-17, 05:02 PM

By the time a halfling's worked their way up to stabbing elbows, the giant in question is most certainly dead.

Syncrogti

2017-01-17, 05:02 PM

I think maybe Roy doesn't know exactly what's going on with his party.

Edit: also, love the Familiacide reference....

Hiro Quester

2017-01-17, 05:05 PM

I love the juxtaposition. We are no longer the team that.... but the crew of the Mechane still is, and you have hitched yourselves to their wagon.

This is a great meta-level example of the eternal recurrence of certain team dynamics, one repeated every time my friends and I start a new game, and eventually settle into our roles (!) and learn how to trust one another and cooperate just as we approach the end of our story.

JoeyTheNeko

2017-01-17, 05:06 PM

glad to see the rest of the crew is not all for andis mutiny.
still want her beheaded.

snowblizz

2017-01-17, 05:08 PM

How did she even get to survive/stick in a pirate ship's adventures so long is beyond me,
Nepotism. Although clearly she is a passable mechanic too. Considering Julio's reputation, maybe even in the literal sense originally envisioned by those who coined the expression.

ready to turn tails at the mere sign of trouble.

Well, in all fairness, that is *exactly* how pirates would roll. Dead men (nor women) can't spend loot.

Themrys

2017-01-17, 05:09 PM

Looks like Elan's 7th grade gym teacher was right after all.

Lies!

Pretty sure Elan's gym teacher only commented on Elan's ability to climb a rope, not on his ability to hang on a rope and cast a mending spell at the same time.

(Unless gym classes are a lot more interesting in OOTS-verse than in real life ....)

Random observation: The woman with the blue headscarf was most shocked when Andi hit Bandana, while the woman with the pink hair did not seem shocked at all (no lines around the eyes). Blue woman's kneeling next to Bandana makes sense in context, but what about pink hair woman? Is she secretly an ally of Andi and knew this would happen and now pretending to be shocked?

... okay, people react to shock differently. But that's boring. :smalltongue:

Spellbreaker26

2017-01-17, 05:12 PM

Well, I hope at least Elan sees what's happening and can talk to the crew since he is the one that knows the more about them, he could also heal Bandana

Elan spent a lot of time with Julio, but has he endeared himself particularly to the crew?

This is a great meta-level example of the eternal recurrence of certain team dynamics, one repeated every time my friends and I start a new game, and eventually settle into our roles (!) and learn how to trust one another and cooperate just as we approach the end of our story.

Yup. No matter who you're playing with, someone, sometime, will have a problem with another party member.

Although clearly she is a passable mechanic too.

Andi is almost certainly an excellent mechanic.

Spellbreaker26

2017-01-17, 05:13 PM

Is she secretly an ally of Andi and knew this would happen and now pretending to be shocked?

I'm pretty sure Andi didn't know what was happening till it happened. This was a foolish spur-of-the-moment attack, not a premeditated conspiracy.

Morquard

2017-01-17, 05:16 PM

Random observation: The woman with the blue headscarf was most shocked when Andi hit Bandana, while the woman with the pink hair did not seem shocked at all (no lines around the eyes). Blue woman's kneeling next to Bandana makes sense in context, but what about pink hair woman? Is she secretly an ally of Andi and knew this would happen and now pretending to be shocked?

... okay, people react to shock differently. But that's boring. :smalltongue:She lost initiative and only now gets to act (shocked).

PH7

2017-01-17, 05:18 PM

If they're all stand-ins for the early days OotS, does that mean Andi=Belkar just knocked out Bandana=Roy?
Blue headscarf=Durkon, rushing to heal/aid?
(Somewhat) emotionally indifferent helmsman=Vaarsuvius?
And Elan & Haley freaking out on the sidelines?

..I'm probably taking the comparison too far...:smallsmile:

KorvinStarmast

2017-01-17, 05:33 PM

"anyone have strong feelings about which way I should go around this next mountain" is improper nautical request for steering commands. A properly nautical helmsman would call out

Orders to the Helm?

In a loud voice.

Great strip, even though talky man got a little too talky for my liking.

Though I understand building tension, I experienced a major suckage moment due to the fizzle of Elan's most excellent attempt at using a low level spell to do major good things on the gas bag. I love it when low level spells can do big things.

In the other most pressing piratical concern, it is time for Andi to walk the plank or be tossed over the side. However, that would short circuit future drama by avoiding the "reckoning" exposition that would take an entire strip, or at least much of an entire strip. (maybe even multiple strips, given how long and unending the court room scene in Azure city took)

Pirates need to stop bickering and help Roy get those other two giants off of the ship. They are big, they are strong, they are motivated, and they are dangerous.

(Expect next scene to update us on Haley/V/Belkar who are being left further and further behind. )

Shining Wrath

2017-01-17, 05:45 PM

is improper nautical request for steering commands. A properly nautical helmsman would call out

Orders to the Helm?

In a loud voice.

Great strip, even though talky man got a little too talky for my liking.

Though I understand building tension, I experienced a major suckage moment due to the fizzle of Elan's most excellent attempt at using a low level spell to do major good things on the gas bag. I love it when low level spells can do big things.

In the other most pressing piratical concern, it is time for Andi to walk the plank or be tossed over the side. However, that would short circuit future drama by avoiding the "reckoning" exposition that would take an entire strip, or at least much of an entire strip. (maybe even multiple strips, given how long and unending the court room scene in Azure city took)

Pirates need to stop bickering and help Roy get those other two giants off of the ship. They are big, they are strong, they are motivated, and they are dangerous.

(Expect next scene to update us on Haley/V/Belkar who are being left further and further behind. )

Maybe the helmsman realizes no one is in charge at the moment. Bandana may not have clearly delineated a chain of command, or Andi may have just thrown a wrench into it by panicking. "It's fine! It's all fine! Let's get the hell out of here!" is not quite up there with "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" for inspiring speeches given by leaders in moments of crisis.

Belkar is the slowest, the only one with no access to flight, the hardest to spot from the air, and of the three not on the ship, the least intelligent / crafty / careful. This may be the end for Death's Little Helper. It would be an interesting approach to have Belkar's long-foretold death be clearly NOT Roy's fault.

Basement Cat

2017-01-17, 05:47 PM

While Roy's deductions are pretty logical I wonder if he'll be as clinical when he finds out the real reason for the bombardment being stopped.

I've got a suspicion that the Mechane's crew is more like a family than a group of people who work together. These folks have been together for years and they obviously aren't taking Andi's attack on Bandana in stride.

Andi could be in real trouble here: The fashionista with the sword looks like he's seriously angry. :smallfurious:

snowblizz

2017-01-17, 05:53 PM

Andi is almost certainly an excellent mechanic.
I don't rate mechanics getting fleeced by gnomes or knocking their acting captain out in a crisis due to petty tiffs an excellent mechanic.

Stabbey

2017-01-17, 05:57 PM

Maybe the helmsman realizes no one is in charge at the moment.

It's OBVIOUSLY a joke. Translated, the helmsman is saying in deeply sarcastic tones: "No one will hit me on the head with a wrench if I go left around the next mountain instead of right, will they?"

Onyavar

2017-01-17, 05:59 PM

pearl jam

2017-01-17, 06:04 PM

It's OBVIOUSLY a joke. Translated, the helmsman is saying in deeply sarcastic tones: "No one will hit me on the head with a wrench if I go left around the next mountain instead of right, will they?"

That's certainly one way to read her question, but it's not the way I read it.

I assumed it was pretty much face value because once they've turned out of the charted pass there is a real issue of finding another navigable way out and if they don't have/aren't referring to a map they may well be relying on gut instinct to decide which way won't lead them into a worse situation....

Your reading is certainly a possibility as well, though, but not one I'd have considered in this case had I not visited this thread.

ti'esar

2017-01-17, 06:04 PM

I don't rate mechanics getting fleeced by gnomes or knocking their acting captain out in a crisis due to petty tiffs an excellent mechanic.

That just proves she's inept at interpersonal skills (and as such would make an awful captain). You don't need to be a pleasant person to be technically gifted.

SethoMarkus

2017-01-17, 06:19 PM

That just proves she's inept at interpersonal skills (and as such would make an awful captain). You don't need to be a pleasant person to be technically gifted.

These Gnomes DID say that Andi's "maintenance" was a bunch of jury-rigging, though... I understand those were repairs done under duress, but...

nocoolnamejim

2017-01-17, 06:20 PM

Wonderful. The Order has matured and now their support characters commit the mistakes for them. Run away, infight and freak out, everyone!

On the mutiny aspect though, I wonder why commenters are swinging this wildly between 'Andi will succeed because Mateo called her captain' and 'Andi will fail because Felix is outraged'. Of course we must speculate, but once the crew has overcome the shock, there will probably be reasonable arguments.

It could be that a crashed/incapicitated airship needs a capable but cowardly engineer more than the legitimate but reckless youngster who flew them into a mess, and Bandana doesn't feel home anymore and joins the order on their mission. V could rest and prepare six overland flight spells to that end.

Or, the Mechane stays afloat, Andi loses a vote and Bandana agrees that the order can ride with them to Firmament, where they split ways amicably. At the moment, any outcome is possible.

I really like the idea that they'll keep Bandana as a replacement for dead Belkar, but the probability of that one is low, I admit. The party doesn't needs a low-mid-level rogue/fighter, IF that's what B actually is.

More information to go on when we previously only had a small amount. Previous comic it seemed possible that Andi's mutiny had popular support. New comic pretty convincingly makes it seem otherwise. Naturally people are going to extrapolate a lot based on the new data.

It also could definitely be argued that if the ship crashes it is going to be because of that reckless engineer who lost her cool and disrupted the mending spell and/or took them off a charted path in the middle of a mountain range to who knows where? There could be a literal dragon around the next bend for all the crew and the order know.

When/if the Mechane gets out of this mess I don't expect there to be a vote on the matter. Generally that's not how ships with captains work.

Personally, I like Bandana well enough as a supporting character, but she's never grown on me enough to suggest main party potential.

dasher

2017-01-17, 06:21 PM

"Mend linnnnnggg!!"

I know how that feels. Just when you think you might fix something...

JSSheridan

2017-01-17, 06:30 PM

Thanks Giant!

Jaxzan Proditor

2017-01-17, 06:32 PM

Roy gets an A for his attempts at guessing what exactly happened. I hesitate to say that the situation has improved, but I guess it'll make the fighting easier for now. I'm really eager to see the remainder of the crew's reactions.

Vinsfeld

2017-01-17, 06:32 PM

Still in 2016, Giant?

Onyavar

2017-01-17, 06:37 PM

Personally, I like Bandana well enough as a supporting character, but she's never grown on me enough to suggest main party potential.
Yep, she needs a major flaw for that, and some more traits that make people conflicted about her.

People suggested other party additions before - Thog, Miko, Hinjo, Celia, Veldrina, Ganji, golem Crystal...
All of them were as controversal as the main cast, which is why they were considered, I guess.
It's pretty weird how the level-headed Bandana hasn't shown any negative character traits, or did I miss them?

Emperor Demonking

2017-01-17, 06:44 PM

These Gnomes DID say that Andi's "maintenance" was a bunch of jury-rigging, though... I understand those were repairs done under duress, but...

That's a sign of a genius, mechanic. don't you watch sci-fi?

SethoMarkus

2017-01-17, 06:47 PM

That's a sign of a genius, mechanic. don't you watch sci-fi?

Ah, yes, my mistake! The "genius" mechanic who doesn't understand any of that technical mumbo-jumbo but always gets the job done with duct-tape and gumption!:smalltongue:

Forikroder

2017-01-17, 06:54 PM

Ah, yes, my mistake! The "genius" mechanic who doesn't understand any of that technical mumbo-jumbo but always gets the job done with duck-tape and gumption!:smalltongue:

if the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy

theoretically though, the OoTS may have found the only situation where Familicide is justified

hell if they cast it on the dwarves that solves like 80% of the problem immediately

danielxcutter

2017-01-17, 07:02 PM

This strip was full of good ol' WIN. One to you, Giant!

...Mr. Burlew of course, not the half-naked frost giant barbarian.

Crusher

2017-01-17, 07:02 PM

For a second, I misread that, and thought that it would wipe out an entire element.

Its overrated anyway. You're better off with bamboo at least half the time.

8BitNinja

2017-01-17, 07:03 PM

I'm pretty sure that lack of infighting bit hasn't really changed.

Either that or we haven't seen enough time pass to see change proven.

Either that or I have a harder time being convinced.

danielxcutter

2017-01-17, 07:04 PM

I'm pretty sure that lack of infighting bit hasn't really changed.

Either that or we haven't seen enough time pass to see change proven.

Either that or I have a harder time being convinced.

Yes, yes, and yes. What did you expect, you're a paladin.

8BitNinja

2017-01-17, 07:14 PM

Yes, yes, and yes. What did you expect, you're a paladin.

When you have such high standards for yourself, it's hard to look at others without them.

It's a problem many have.

Anarion

2017-01-17, 07:41 PM

Oh Roy, when will you learn not to be arrogant? Fate always gives in to temptation.

Jay R

2017-01-17, 08:27 PM

By the time a halfling's worked their way up to stabbing elbows, the giant in question is most certainly dead.
This particular halfling has a Ring of Jumping.

I've got a suspicion that the Mechane's crew is more like a family than a group of people who work together.

Oh, yes. Far too dysfunctional to be a work crew. Has to be a family.

Ridureyu

2017-01-17, 09:23 PM

Looks like Andi needs to hit a few more crew members with a wrench. They aren't trusting her leadership properly.

Scarlet Knight

2017-01-17, 09:27 PM

That's a sign of a genius, mechanic. don't you watch sci-fi?

Yes, it's a shame she'll swing from the yardarm when Bandana awakes.

Stabbey

2017-01-17, 09:57 PM

That's certainly one way to read her question, but it's not the way I read it.

I assumed it was pretty much face value because once they've turned out of the charted pass there is a real issue of finding another navigable way out and if they don't have/aren't referring to a map they may well be relying on gut instinct to decide which way won't lead them into a worse situation....

Your reading is certainly a possibility as well, though, but not one I'd have considered in this case had I not visited this thread.

Well maybe I read it as a joke because out of 1000+ strips the overwhelming majority of them end with some kind of joke or punchline.

nocoolnamejim

2017-01-17, 10:51 PM

Yep, she needs a major flaw for that, and some more traits that make people conflicted about her.

People suggested other party additions before - Thog, Miko, Hinjo, Celia, Veldrina, Ganji, golem Crystal...
All of them were as controversal as the main cast, which is why they were considered, I guess.
It's pretty weird how the level-headed Bandana hasn't shown any negative character traits, or did I miss them?

No glaringly obvious ones. A few folks have argued against her competency as acting Captain - and I suppose she could have been more proactive in dealing with Andi/seeing her coming - but overall I think she's been fine in her duties.

And you may well be onto something. It's our flaws that make us interesting. Bandana has just struck me as...I dunno...bland? She's there to serve a role and fill a purpose. It isn't limited to her. I kind of feel that way about all of the Mechane crew and the ship itself.

O-Chul or that other Paladin travelling with him (spacing on the name at the moment) both strike me as interesting potential choices that I'd add to your list above. They're written far more interestingly than a lot of other Paladins that I've seen with their sense of humor, flexibility on certain matters like fleeting combat, etc.

Forikroder

2017-01-17, 11:23 PM

No glaringly obvious ones. A few folks have argued against her competency as acting Captain - and I suppose she could have been more proactive in dealing with Andi/seeing her coming - but overall I think she's been fine in her duties.

And you may well be onto something. It's our flaws that make us interesting. Bandana has just struck me as...I dunno...bland? She's there to serve a role and fill a purpose. It isn't limited to her. I kind of feel that way about all of the Mechane crew and the ship itself.

O-Chul or that other Paladin travelling with him (spacing on the name at the moment) both strike me as interesting potential choices that I'd add to your list above. They're written far more interestingly than a lot of other Paladins that I've seen with their sense of humor, flexibility on certain matters like fleeting combat, etc.

aside from Miko the paladins have been written with flexibility though

even though its really only Hinjo Ochul and lien though

Prospekt

2017-01-17, 11:27 PM

Also, "What the hell, Andi?" is not how you address your captain who just staged a popular mutiny.

How is this a popular mutiny? What other crew members have patted Andi on the back like, "Whew, good job there!" Literally only one crew member hasn't freaked out and that's because they're busy driving the damn ship while it's bombarded- they don't have the luxury to freak out.

Kish

2017-01-17, 11:34 PM

I believe that's Shining Wrath's point--that the people in the last strip's discussion thread who took the immediate obedience Andi received as meaning she spoke for the crew in her resistance to Bandana's leadership are not getting support from this strip.

darkelement

2017-01-18, 12:30 AM

I don't see why the Andi/Bandana/crew imbroglio has to be an either-or thing. Clearly a lot of them support her and a lot of them don't. Bandana was being a terrible leader, and Andi raised her objections to Bandana's decisions terribly. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Yes, Elan's spell fizzling might be bad, but I still think it needs to be pointed out that Andi's shortest-of-the-short-term objective of getting out of the rock bombardment was successful, and Bandana's prediction that any random side passage would have just as many giants waiting to ambush them seems to have been proven incorrect.

goodpeople25

2017-01-18, 12:45 AM

Rogar Demonblud

2017-01-18, 12:47 AM

goodpeople25

2017-01-18, 01:09 AM

Or the giants there are winding up their pitching arms, having not gotten to go in the surprise round.

Or Rich has something really nasty tucked away. Any bets we're about to see what a dragon looks like in the new art style?
As in them entering a suitable monster's territory due to not following the pass? Makes sense to me and nice idea if so. Not as sure about it being a dragon though.

keybounce

2017-01-18, 01:11 AM

Which is more believable:
1. A wide ranging peace plan that nets a profit,
2. A sexy shoeless god of war doing a kill-all spree
3. An unscheduled turn has put the ship both out of rock range AND out of "passing through the mountains" range,
4. A wizard kills you and all your school friends, or
5. Being sniped by three other people noting the same point of humor :-)

BriarHobbit

2017-01-18, 02:53 AM

What a fun episode. Hopefully, Elan can cast another Mending spell. I presume so, but there is trouble if he can't.

Centaur

2017-01-18, 03:07 AM

These Gnomes DID say that Andi's "maintenance" was a bunch of jury-rigging, though... I understand those were repairs done under duress, but...

Being able to implement fixes of any complexity is an INT-based skill.

Choosing a particular fix strategy that does not make further work overly difficult (in other words, avoiding technical debt) is a WIS-based skill.

Dealing with people is, of course, CHA-based.

factotum

2017-01-18, 03:07 AM

Knaight

2017-01-18, 03:22 AM

These Gnomes DID say that Andi's "maintenance" was a bunch of jury-rigging, though... I understand those were repairs done under duress, but...

Said "maintenance" also involved repairs from extensive damage involving being caught directly in a nasty storm and fixing up the ship with an utterly inadequate supply of spare parts. There's absolutely no reason to think that Andi is anything but competent at her job, other than people disliking the character and extrapolating ineptitude that wasn't there from the dislike.

Messenger

2017-01-18, 03:35 AM

How is this a popular mutiny? What other crew members have patted Andi on the back like, "Whew, good job there!" Literally only one crew member hasn't freaked out and that's because they're busy driving the damn ship while it's bombarded- they don't have the luxury to freak out.

Which, unfortunately, is what they're doing now while the helmsman, though remaining calm, has no idea where to go.

Now we get to see if Andi has the right stuff to be captain of the ship. My money's not on it, though.

And I'm glad Bandana isn't dead (as was feared last update), but this panic and disorder among the crew plus the Mechane's veering away from their flight path and destination is not going to be good for their current side (but very important) quest.

skim172

2017-01-18, 04:00 AM

Objectively, we can say Bandana's leadership has not been good because it led to her getting hit in the head with a wrench.

I mean, I don't know if she could've done it any better or if any changes would've improved the situation. But the ideal outcome of her leadership would probably include not getting wrenched in the head.

Maybe she could've been less insulting at that last point - try to keep her cool and her tongue when dealing with an annoying subordinate. Long-term, she could've tried to address Andi's obvious bitterness - ignoring a person's resentment towards you is a good idea in most relationships, but not when dealing with an employee. "Brushing off haters" is tough when said haters work for you and their performance is vital to your efforts. That's an important management lesson for us all - never ignore an employee's grievances. You don't have to give in to those grievances, but you do need to address them, because otherwise you're just ignoring a problem that will only grow bigger and bring down the whole team.

But c'mon - it's Bandana's first management position. She'll learn ... unless there's permanent brain damage from the aforementioned head-wrenching. But now we learn the important function that Human Resources provide. This could have all been potentially avoided with a proper HR department on-board the Mechane to hear out Andi's grievances, to mediate a discussion with Bandana, and to provide Andi with workshops on Anger Management and Constructive Criticism.

So really, this is ultimately Julio Scoundrel's fault for putting together a faulty corporate structure and a management system based primarily on Charisma checks. :smallannoyed:

Marlowe

2017-01-18, 05:48 AM

Objectively, we can say Bandana's leadership has not been good because it led to her getting hit in the head with a wrench.

A ship captain shouldn't have to walk on eggshells around her subordinates for fear of being assaulted.

This is ENTIRELY Andi's fault. Not Bandana's. Not Julio. She has failed to behave as a professional or as an adult. And that's the least that either of them could have expected of her.

factotum

2017-01-18, 07:14 AM

Maybe she could've been less insulting at that last point - try to keep her cool and her tongue when dealing with an annoying subordinate.

Look at the situation they're in at the time, though. I don't blame Bandana for losing her cool with someone who was making no effort whatsoever to help with the current situation and was just complaining.

Marlowe

2017-01-18, 07:28 AM

dancrilis

2017-01-18, 07:42 AM

Marlowe

2017-01-18, 07:46 AM

It depends on what you consider Andi's assigned duties.
A. Fixing the Ship
OR
B. Making sure the ship doesn't crash.

She is the CHIEF ENGINEER. Her duty is A. B is the job of a bridge officer. She is NOT this.

There's no "depends" here.

dancrilis

2017-01-18, 07:49 AM

She is the CHIEF ENGINEER. Her duty is A. B is the job of a bridge officer. She is NOT this.

There's no "depends" here.

I could have elaborated B to 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure' if that makes it suit your narrative better.

Marlowe

2017-01-18, 07:52 AM

"My" Narrative?:smallconfused:

In that case, there is also no "depends", because she is shirking BOTH duties. While interfering in Bandana's performance of duty.

Vynn

2017-01-18, 07:55 AM

Should be obvious, but in doubt her only duty is to do whatever the ship's captain wants of her.

dancrilis

2017-01-18, 08:11 AM

"My" Narrative?:smallconfused:
Different people can read the same thing and pick up different things from it - sometimes the text will show some of them that they were wrong but other times it will not, as such your reading of the text might differ than the authors (and many other peoples).
As such me refering to 'your narrative' is merely me fixing my earlier statement to suit what I saw as your reading of it - I did not convey my intention to you correctly by saying 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash' so I changed it to 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure'.

In that case, there is also no "depends", because she is shirking BOTH duties. While interfering in Bandana's performance of duty.
Not really 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure' includes not preventing mechanical failures from occuring, and Giants throwing rocks could have resulted in a mechanical failure - under that she would have been doing it duty in a proactive manner.

Spellbreaker26

2017-01-18, 08:20 AM

Not really 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure' includes not preventing mechanical failures from occuring, and Giants throwing rocks could have resulted in a mechanical failure - under that she would have been doing it duty in a proactive manner.

In that case she should have taken over before the ship left port; after all, the only surefire way to make sure that mechanical failures don't occcur is to never let the ship fly...

In reality, mechanics are employed to make sure that the ship keeps running while it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. In this case, the ship is supposed to be ferrying a group of people to their destinations so they can save the world.

pendell

2017-01-18, 08:34 AM

Bandana's alive! Yay!

Looks like the team is trying to handle this like a family rather than a crew, and not everyone is onboard with Andi's action. Regardless, the ship needs one CO at the moment rather than a committee.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Marlowe

2017-01-18, 08:38 AM

Different people can read the same thing and pick up different things from it - sometimes the text will show some of them that they were wrong but other times it will not, as such your reading of the text might differ than the authors (and many other peoples).
As such me refering to 'your narrative' is merely me fixing my earlier statement to suit what I saw as your reading of it - I did not convey my intention to you correctly by saying 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash' so I changed it to 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure'.

Do you agree that;
1, Andi, the chief engineer, debated with Bandana, the captain, as to the conning of the vessel, the Mechane then being under attack and in a tense situation.
2, Bandana rejected Andi's input, and reprimanded her for not attending to her duties.
3, Andi assaulted and incapacitated Bandana.

Do you debate this? Because this is the only "narrative" I need. The one the Giant wrote.

Not really 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure' includes not preventing mechanical failures from occuring, and Giants throwing rocks could have resulted in a mechanical failure - under that she would have been doing it duty in a proactive manner.

By this logic, Andi would be justified in preventing the vessel from ever taking off ever again, on the grounds that something might happen to it. Her duties are to repair the vessel and ensuring to the best of her ability that it may follow the maneuvers ordered by the officer of the bridge. Interfering with this officer in the performance of their duty is outside her duty and, since it comes while neglecting her own, grossly unprofessional.

This hardly matters. Because responding to a reprimand from a superior by assaulting them is both grossly unprofessional and an action of serious immaturity.

Peelee

2017-01-18, 08:48 AM

Objectively, we can say Bandana's leadership has not been good because it led to her getting hit in the head with a wrench.
That's some dangerous logic right there.

That's an important management lesson for us all - never ignore an employee's grievances. You don't have to give in to those grievances, but you do need to address them, because otherwise you're just ignoring a problem that will only grow bigger and bring down the whole team.
Bandana did address Andi's grievances. When Andi complained about not getting paid, Bandana agreed, and they got paid.When Andi wanted to turn around and try a different route, Bandana disagreed and explained why. When Andi wanted to turn off the marked pass into a side route, Bandana disagreed and explained why.

Please, show me Bandana ignoring her employee's grievances.

Stabbey

2017-01-18, 08:54 AM

What a fun episode. Hopefully, Elan can cast another Mending spell. I presume so, but there is trouble if he can't.

If I remember right, Bards cast their spells like sorcerers - they have a limit of X casts of X level spells, but can cast any spell they know as long as they have enough casts left for that spell level. And since I believe that's the first spell Elan's cast on this day, so...

Keltest

2017-01-18, 09:03 AM

If I remember right, Bards cast their spells like sorcerers - they have a limit of X casts of X level spells, but can cast any spell they know as long as they have enough casts left for that spell level. And since I believe that's the first spell Elan's cast on this day, so...

You remember correctly. Unless Elan has been throwing around bard spells left and right off screen, He can probably still fix it. The question is, will it be in time?

dancrilis

2017-01-18, 09:03 AM

In that case she should have taken over before the ship left port; after all, the only surefire way to make sure that mechanical failures don't occcur is to never let the ship fly...

By this logic, Andi would be justified in preventing the vessel from ever taking off ever again, on the grounds that something might happen to it.
There is a difference between allowing a ship to continue to be exposed to damage and allowing a situation where the ship may or may not be exposed to damage.
Your arguements could be argued but they are not the arguement I made.

ensuring to the best of her ability that it may follow the maneuvers ordered by the officer of the bridge.
Which she may have deemed only to be possible if the officer on the bridge was removed from command.

Interfering with this officer in the performance of their duty is outside her duty and, since it comes while neglecting her own, grossly unprofessional.
Not as you have laid it out.
If she has a duty to 'ensuring to the best of her ability that it may follow the maneuvers ordered by the officer of the bridge' and the officer on the bridge gives the order that they need to complete the pass which she believes to be impossible for the ship to survive that the solution is to alter the orders which can be done via altering the officer.

Please, show me Bandana ignoring her employee's grievances.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) Andi has a grievance that while she was working all night to prevent the ship crashing into the water, than all day supervising intrusive strangers on the ship (with an indication that she would be also working all night to ensure a dawn journey) - Bandana was not engaged in any such even general supervision activity (for example to note saboteurs, resolving disputes between her staff and the gnomes etc).

Marlowe

2017-01-18, 09:15 AM

So, dancrilis, your argument is essentially that anyone, at any time, can disobey any order they like; even up to assaulting superiors, simply because they think they have a better idea.

NO.

As for your example of "Bandana ignoring Andi's grievances", you've both totally misrepresented the conversation ("crashing into the water? WHAT?:smallconfused:) but failed to understand the nature of command. It is NOT Bandana's job to be supervising repairs. That's what Andi is for. Andi's "grievance" is little more than impertinent snark at having to do her JOB.

IntelectPaladin

2017-01-18, 09:35 AM

Oh, this won't end well. This doesn't seem like it will end well.
The Giant has come at us with surprises much worse than this before,
so I can't help but feel like the worst is yet to come.
And that we will never see it coming.
I would just love to be wrong about this,
so I'll just hold out a bit of hope until then.
Where there's life, there's hope. Then again, that statement makes an assumption...
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!

dancrilis

2017-01-18, 09:41 AM

So, dancrilis, your argument is essentially that anyone, at any time, can disobey any order they like; even up to assaulting superiors, simply because they think they have a better idea.

NO.
That is for the rest of the crew to decide - and you are mischaracterising the scenario not 'simply a better idea' but a firm belief that the lives of them and all other people required it.

For example was the mutiny in Crimson Tide justified, there are different sides to this and I am not picking one but I can see them and understand where people are coming from.

As for your example of "Bandana ignoring Andi's grievances", you've both totally misrepresented the conversation ("crashing into the water? WHAT?:smallconfused:) but failed to understand the nature of command. It is NOT Bandana's job to be supervising repairs. That's what Andi is for. Andi's "grievance" is little more than impertinent snark at having to do her JOB.
Bandana might not have been able to supervise repairs but Bandana knows that Elan's father might come after them (she assumed as much here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0972.html)), she also should know that Julio has enemies (Julio implies here he has more impressive villians (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html)), and she can likely assume that a powerful group of adventurers will also have other enemies.
As such her being present at the ship to watch for saboteurs etc while Andi focuses on repairs while strangers are around is not unreasonable - but she didn't do that (also it was the perfect opportunity to be 'in charge' of a situation without issue and build up the crews trust in her command).
Effectively she left Andi in charge for the day (after she had worked all night and commited to working all night again) - as such any issues of any nature became Andi's responsibility to decide (even if none came up).

("crashing into the water? WHAT?:smallconfused:)
Bandana flat out admits that would have happened without Andi's late night work. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html)

Had Bandana responded here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html) to Haley's invite with "thanks but I need to be around so the crew gets used to me as Captain, and I need to plan our operations for the next few months, and I need to ensure that there are no issues with the Gnomes - outside of repairs which Andi can cover if she doesn't lose it due to sleep deprivation, and :) ... well you get the idea" my issues with her captaincy would be much reduced.

tjcross

2017-01-18, 09:55 AM

Snip due to links I can' post.

Had Bandana responded #0966 here to Haley's invite with "thanks but I need to be around so the crew gets used to me as Captain, and I need to plan our operations for the next few months, and I need to ensure that there are no issues with the Gnomes - outside of repairs which Andi can cover if she doesn't lose it due to sleep deprivation, and :) ... well you get the idea" my issues with her captaincy would be much reduced.

Yes, because we all know everyone is perfect and will always do exactly what can be seen clearly with hindsight. Bandana was a competent beginning captain with a crewmember who was determined to do things herown way instead of the captains and being needlessly personal and aggerssive at every opprotunity she had to the point of ignoring her work to whine at the captain instead of keeping the ship fixed. You can try to justify this any way you want, but Andi has through your example patched up the ship in times of dire need to avoid sinking in the ocean so I think she can handle a few cracked planks and holes from boulders.

I do not understand where your blind defense of Andi is coming from, but she is the one most at fault for continually poking and prodding to get a reaction out of Bandana. Andi is nothing but a petulant bully while Bandana while not the most effective was trying to be the better person until she couldn't take Andi's bull anymore.

KorvinStarmast

2017-01-18, 10:01 AM

ManuelSacha

2017-01-18, 10:08 AM

"Aaaahh, Schoolmateicide!
One of my finest spells.
Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't just kill everyone you went to high school with, but also anyone you went to junior high, primary school and kindergarten with.
It's meant for those people who value friendship more than family, or that just had a bigger impact on their peers than on their offspring.
Also, I was kinda bored with Familicide. It seems everyone is using it, nowadays.
I really shouldn't have let those fiends Soul Splice me to that verbose androgynous elf.
I hope s/he didn't steal anything else from my repertoire." :smallconfused:

Keltest

2017-01-18, 10:08 AM

That is for the rest of the crew to decide - and you are mischaracterising the scenario not 'simply a better idea' but a firm belief that the lives of them and all other people required it.

For example was the mutiny in Crimson Tide justified, there are different sides to this and I am not picking one but I can see them and understand where people are coming from. Lest you have forgotten, theyre pirates who regularly pick fights with a bloodthirsty tyrant with an entirely disproportionate sense of revenge. This cannot possibly be the first time that they've been in danger, and yet you don't see Julio walking around on deck with a helmet on all the time.

Bandana might not have been able to supervise repairs but Bandana knows that Elan's father might come after them (she assumed as much here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0972.html)), she also should know that Julio has enemies (Julio implies here he has more impressive villians (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html)), and she can likely assume that a powerful group of adventurers will also have other enemies.
As such her being present at the ship to watch for saboteurs etc while Andi focuses on repairs while strangers are around is not unreasonable - but she didn't do that (also it was the perfect opportunity to be 'in charge' of a situation without issue and build up the crews trust in her command).
Effectively she left Andi in charge for the day (after she had worked all night and commited to working all night again) - as such any issues of any nature became Andi's responsibility to decide (even if none came up). What are you even trying to prove here? Andi would have had to have done exactly what she did regardless of where Bandana was, what she was doing or who she was doing it with. That's part of her JOB as chief engineer.

Bandana flat out admits that would have happened without Andi's late night work. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html)

Had Bandana responded here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html) to Haley's invite with "thanks but I need to be around so the crew gets used to me as Captain, and I need to plan our operations for the next few months, and I need to ensure that there are no issues with the Gnomes - outside of repairs which Andi can cover if she doesn't lose it due to sleep deprivation, and :) ... well you get the idea" my issues with her captaincy would be much reduced.

You do realize that the crew (sans Andi, who's presence was required on ship) got to go ashore as well, right? Youre suggesting that Bandana should have taken advantage of shore leave... to seclude herself and do more work? Theyre about to leave on a journey for, at the very least, days of largely uneventful travel time. That is plenty of time for her to plan what they will do after they drop the Order off, and secluding herself on the ship will not make the crew "more used to her". It will just change Andi's complaint to "you sat alone in Julio's cabin doing who knows what instead of joining your crew."

Marlowe

2017-01-18, 10:14 AM

It is not "up to the rest of the crew to decide". All units and organisations; ESPECIALLY ships, have set duties, responsibilities, and heirarchies. These are so people know what they have to do in a crisis (or even in routine matters) and do not step on others toes in doing so.

I work with elderly people. My job is to keep them comfortable, fed, clean, and in possession of their health and dignity. It is not my job to distribute or administer medicine or drugs. No matter how "firm" my belief is that such might be required. If I exceed my responsibilities by doing so I will be fired and probably face criminal charges. If I do the equivalent of what Andi has done, neglect my own duties to argue with the person responsible, assault and incapacitate said specialist, and then do what my "firm belief" tells me to do, I am most certainly going in the slammer.

And this is taking place in a context where there is much more time to make debate and discuss than there is on a ship in the middle of a fight.

This covers only routine, default duties and responsibilities, still more when direct orders are involved. And Bandana gave Andi a direct order. After giving rather more acknowledgment of her objections than were required of a captain speaking to a subordinate.

Andi has utterly failed to understand the power structure under which she's lived. She's been loyal to the man rather than the position of captain.

Your other comments are totally irrelevant to the discussion. Your uninformed second-guessing of Bandana and Andi's skill as a chief engineer (the very role she chose to neglect in order to pull this stunt) do nothing to justify anything.

Peelee

2017-01-18, 10:26 AM

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) Andi has a grievance that while she was working all night to prevent the ship crashing into the water, than all day supervising intrusive strangers on the ship (with an indication that she would be also working all night to ensure a dawn journey) - Bandana was not engaged in any such even general supervision activity (for example to note saboteurs, resolving disputes between her staff and the gnomes etc).

They'd contracted gnomes to fix the ship. Andi didn't need to hang around, she just wanted to. She can't complain to the captain about work she doesn't need to do yet volunteers for anyway. Well, imean she can, but it's a crap complaint.

littlebum2002

2017-01-18, 10:28 AM

I work with elderly people. My job is to keep them comfortable, fed, clean, and in possession of their health and dignity. It is not my job to distribute or administer medicine or drugs. No matter how "firm" my belief is that such might be required. If I exceed my responsibilities by doing so I will be fired and probably face criminal charges. If I do the equivalent of what Andi has done, neglect my own duties to argue with the person responsible, assault and incapacitate said specialist, and then do what my "firm belief" tells me to do, I am most certainly going in the slammer.

Right, but you're forgetting the fact that this is a pirate ship. If the majority of the crew believes Andi was correct, and that Bandana deserved to be overthrown, then Andi will be fine and possibly will become captain.

I mean, I may be wrong, but I don't think the second-in-command at the elderly care facility can take over control of the facility by killing/incapacitating the person in charge, so it's not exactly a perfect comparison.

Marlowe

2017-01-18, 10:31 AM

Similarly, my RN isn't actually going to hang me or make me walk the plank for violating my ethical responsibilities. She's just going to fire my ass and call the police. Chaosism cuts both ways.

Keltest

2017-01-18, 10:34 AM

Right, but you're forgetting the fact that this is a pirate ship. If the majority of the crew believes Andi was correct, and that Bandana deserved to be overthrown, then Andi will be fine and possibly will become captain.

I mean, I may be wrong, but I don't think the second-in-command at the elderly care facility can take over control of the facility by killing/incapacitating the person in charge, so it's not exactly a perfect comparison.

As a general rule, pirate ships were, if anything, even more tightly run than regular ships. besides the usual problems they had, they also had the whole "everyone fears and reviles us" thing going for them. Unless your captain was genuinely incompetent and dangerous to the crew, Klingon promotions were not any more common on pirate ships than other ships.

Spellbreaker26

2017-01-18, 10:40 AM

As a general rule, pirate ships were, if anything, even more tightly run than regular ships. besides the usual problems they had, they also had the whole "everyone fears and reviles us" thing going for them. Unless your captain was genuinely incompetent and dangerous to the crew, Klingon promotions were not any more common on pirate ships than other ships.

Indeed. Some pirates even had laws governing the compensation for injuries sustained during the course of their activities.

I'm starting to rethink my characterization of pirates as chaotic, come to think of it.

dancrilis

2017-01-18, 10:44 AM

You can try to justify this any way you want, but Andi has through your example patched up the ship in times of dire need to avoid sinking in the ocean so I think she can handle a few cracked planks and holes from boulders.

Alternatively if the person that can keep it patched up in one time of dire need says they are doomed if they continue as they are perhaps they should be listened too.

... or a 'verse dreamed up by dancrilis.
Never said it was acceptable to hit your superiour officer (but made an allowance for it in the interest of crew safety/ exceptional circumstances, and while no one was attacked here as a demonstration of such circumstances Riker's attitude here would be normally unacceptable but fine in context (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcme3dPXARc), context not provided by me).

Lest you have forgotten, theyre pirates who regularly pick fights with a bloodthirsty tyrant with an entirely disproportionate sense of revenge. This cannot possibly be the first time that they've been in danger, and yet you don't see Julio walking around on deck with a helmet on all the time.
Not sure what you mean.

What are you even trying to prove here? Andi would have had to have done exactly what she did regardless of where Bandana was, what she was doing or who she was doing it with. That's part of her JOB as chief engineer.
Andi was not airing a grievance about her actions she was airing one about Bandana's actions - namely that she didn't seem to think it was far that Bandana was swanning around town all day.

Theyre about to leave on a journey for, at the very least, days of largely uneventful travel time.
... no?
The plan was get teleport orb (succeeded), get Durkon raised (failed), teleport to Xykon (delayed due to potential to get Durkon raised) - in the event that Durkon was just Durkon (which they all thought) and had they not heard about a potential meeting (and Durkon not pushing for that) they would not have travelled with the ship any further.
Now Bandana cannot be faulted for not knowing that they were going to get a teleport orb but she should have had a plan for her crew in the event that they did.

And lets be fair management do something (that is why there are jobs in management) being available for her staff when there working is something that a manager can be expected to do (first on the ship last off and all that kind of stuff).

They'd contracted gnomes to fix the ship. Andi didn't need to hang around, she just wanted to. She can't complain to the captain about work she doesn't need to do yet volunteers for anyway. Well, imean she can, but it's a crap complaint.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html), Bandana says 'Andi's overseeing repairs so I ain't got much else to do' the implication being that if Andi was not overseeing repairs Bandana would be.

I do not understand where your blind defense of Andi is coming from, but she is the one most at fault for continually poking and prodding to get a reaction out of Bandana. Andi is nothing but a petulant bully while Bandana while not the most effective was trying to be the better person until she couldn't take Andi's bull anymore.

I started on this discussion (with the exception of the first page with a generic comment) with.

I will say in Bandana's defence (despite me thinking that she is inept as a captain) Andi should have taken a vacation from the ship in Tindertown if she was unable to follow Bandana as a captain (and if the ship couldn't function without Andi and they were all grounded so be it) - she should have known that adventurer transport would be hazardous and that Bandana might not be willing to follow reason (or at least what Andi viewed as the most reasonable course of action, if Bandana saw things differently or got caught up in the moment) ... but ah well.

Andi in my opinion should have walked away from the ship rather then serving on it if she could not see Bandana as the captain - perhaps a conversation on how things would be handled given the management change could have also solved this, and while Bandana should have talked about how she wanted things handled on her ship if she didn't offer that conversation Andi could have seen about demanding it and left if she was unsatisfied.
But as the conversation didn't happen (that we saw) and as both were serving on the ship than the lives of the crew might be the dominant factor on the ship charter (if one exists) and so protecting them from imminent death (as Andi saw it) may be within the rules.

Marlowe

2017-01-18, 10:48 AM

Chaotic doesn't mean "lawless" or "every man for himself". It means focussing on small-scale tangibles like "the safety and prosperity of myself and the people I care about" rather than big, abstract things like "king and country" or "the rights of Man". At least, that's how I tend to play it.

So yes, a LAW to reimburse people for injuries is something a Chaotic might want. To protect himself. A Lawful person might want it as well, to protect the welfare of people in general.

Keltest

2017-01-18, 11:01 AM

Not sure what you mean. I mean they risk their lives all the time. This is hardly an abnormal occurrence, except that Andi felt the need to interfere with the captain instead of doing her job, and thus made things significantly more dangerous.

Andi was not airing a grievance about her actions she was airing one about Bandana's actions - namely that she didn't seem to think it was far that Bandana was swanning around town all day. Which, as I pointed out, has little to do with anything that is or is not actually occurring and is entirely based on Andi wanting to find something about Bandana to complain about. It doesn't actually matter what she did, Andi would still have said it was wrong. You can tell by how, when Bandana actually gave into her demand once, she was still unhappy with the situation.

... no?
The plan was get teleport orb (succeeded), get Durkon raised (failed), teleport to Xykon (delayed due to potential to get Durkon raised) - in the event that Durkon was just Durkon (which they all thought) and had they not heard about a potential meeting (and Durkon not pushing for that) they would not have travelled with the ship any further.
Now Bandana cannot be faulted for not knowing that they were going to get a teleport orb but she should have had a plan for her crew in the event that they did. The plan, as far as Bandana knew, was to try and get the order to the North where Kraagor's gate was, then drop them off and leave. The plan changed because of a number of changing circumstances (the godsmoot being the biggest one of them), but at the time she was leaving the ship, they had a journey of several days, if not longer, ahead of them.

And lets be fair management do something (that is why there are jobs in management) being available for her staff when there working is something that a manager can be expected to do (first on the ship last off and all that kind of stuff). And should Andi have needed Bandana's help with something, she could have sent a gnome to go get her. "being available" does not mean "sitting around doing nothing but waiting for problems to arise." Managers who do that are generally bad managers.

Peelee

2017-01-18, 11:07 AM

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html), Bandana says 'Andi's overseeing repairs so I ain't got much else to do' the implication being that if Andi was not overseeing repairs Bandana would be.

OK, let's say it's a legitimate complaint that Bandana waves off. This is still pretty minor, and every other complaint - which are much more important, and made in the heat of battle - were all explained as to why they wouldn't be followed. So, as far as Bandana needing to address Andi's concerns, she did get better about it, and did address her actual concerns every time after. So Andi is still a petulant child (regardless of her actual age).

Marlowe

2017-01-18, 11:09 AM

"Liasing with paying customers" (the Order) is very distinctly one of Bandana's duties as Captain. She wasn't goofing off, she was doing part of her job.

And second-guessing Bandana's use of her own time does nothing to justify Andi's dereliction of duty, interference with another in the performance of their duty, and assault upon a superior.

Also, an interpretation thing; but how did Andi refer to the gnomes?

"Grubby little" are the adjectives used.

I somehow don't think someone who uses such slighting language against another ethnicity is someone we're supposed to be sympathising with. Insofar as Andi's actions don't put her so far beyond the Pale she's standing on Rockall anyway.

SethoMarkus

2017-01-18, 11:27 AM

Being able to implement fixes of any complexity is an INT-based skill.

Choosing a particular fix strategy that does not make further work overly difficult (in other words, avoiding technical debt) is a WIS-based skill.

Dealing with people is, of course, CHA-based.

Said "maintenance" also involved repairs from extensive damage involving being caught directly in a nasty storm and fixing up the ship with an utterly inadequate supply of spare parts. There's absolutely no reason to think that Andi is anything but competent at her job, other than people disliking the character and extrapolating ineptitude that wasn't there from the dislike.

You misunderstand, I am not arguing that Andi doesn't get the job done (when she is actually doing her job). I am just pointing out that, as far as I am aware, we only know two things about Andi's mechanical repairs:

1) They keep the ship flying,
2) They make it difficult for "real repairs" later

Obviously she is accomplishing her job. However, as far as I remember, the only comment about the quality of her work was that it is a jury-rigging mess.

Whether or not she is able to perform any repairs in the middle of this combat is irrelevant. Her duties as Chief Engineer should be to engage in any repairs she can, direct other engineers on what they should be doing, delivering a status update to the Captain and/or helmsman, or, failing everything else, assisting in fighting off the attackers. At the very least, stay out of the way of others.

She didn't even do this correctly, however.

She may be a genius, competent, miracle-worker of a mechanic, but, from what we have seen in-panel, she is not "Chief Engineer" material, in my eyes.

I agree there is a lot of undue dislike towards her (I am guilty of that bias myself), but I see a lot of support for her that I cannot understand. I haven't seen many admirable qualities in her...

Douglas

2017-01-18, 12:11 PM

2) They make it difficult for "real repairs" later
We don't actually know that one. That's something the gnomes said, and there's strong reason to believe they were deliberately exaggerating the problems and required work in order to scam Bandana out of an extortionate price for the repairs - that's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for how Haley was able to bargain them down so far.

Quibblicious

2017-01-18, 12:13 PM

Kish

2017-01-18, 12:14 PM

JumboWheat01

2017-01-18, 12:16 PM

We don't actually know that one. That's something the gnomes said, and there's strong reason to believe they were deliberately exaggerating the problems and required work in order to scam Bandana out of an extortionate price for the repairs - that's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for how Haley was able to bargain them down so far.

Haley has a dangerous bluff skill and she's not afraid to use it.

Peelee

2017-01-18, 12:20 PM

Haley has a dangerous bluff skill and she's not afraid to use it.

"You'll get paid in exposure?"

Rogar Demonblud

2017-01-18, 12:28 PM

As in them entering a suitable monster's territory due to not following the pass? Makes sense to me and nice idea if so. Not as sure about it being a dragon though.

Since frost giants are generally accompanied by white dragons when you encounter them in small groups, I'd say we're overdue for one showing up. Which probably mean Belkar's going to be the one to encounter the winter wolves.

They'd contracted gnomes to fix the ship. Andi didn't need to hang around, she just wanted to. She can't complain to the captain about work she doesn't need to do yet volunteers for anyway. Well, I mean she can, but it's a crap complaint.

I always figured part of the reason Andi had to stay behind was to explain her juryrigging to the engineers.

dancrilis

2017-01-18, 12:29 PM

I don't think there's supposed to be a reasonable explanation for Haley bargaining them down so far. Magic makes sense. What she does defies the natural order. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html)

This bloke here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18480383) posts a bit showing that logically the shipyard owner inflated the time it would take before Haley spoke to them.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-01-18, 12:31 PM

Yeah, it's a fairly standard mechanic's con. Over-inflate the time required, demand more money.

Scotty kind of lampooned it in the TNG episode 'Relics'.

nocoolnamejim

2017-01-18, 12:41 PM

Jasdoif

2017-01-18, 12:42 PM

It's pretty weird how the level-headed Bandana hasn't shown any negative character traits, or did I miss them?I think she gets unduly hard on people when captaining. How she treats Andi has the same general scope as how Andi treats her, so that could be just be the baseline for their relationship; but how she talks to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html)?

Chei

2017-01-18, 12:54 PM

I think she gets unduly hard on people when captaining. How she treats Andi has the same general scope as how Andi treats her, so that could be just be the baseline for their relationship; but how she talks to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html)?

It's funny because she treated Roy more brusquely there than she treated anyone on the crew for the whole book until Andi provoked her. I actually thought shanghaiing Roy was one of her better moments as captain.

Spellbreaker26

2017-01-18, 12:57 PM

I think she gets unduly hard on people when captaining. How she treats Andi has the same general scope as how Andi treats her, so that could be just be the baseline for their relationship; but how she talks to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html)?

Either way, Bandana is probably one of the less interesting side characters in the series; she's certainly no replacement for Belkar like some people were suggesting, and I highly doubt Belkar will die in this particular encounter anyway.

KorvinStarmast

2017-01-18, 01:35 PM

Either way, Bandana is probably one of the less interesting side characters in the series; she's certainly no replacement for Belkar like some people were suggesting, and I highly doubt Belkar will die in this particular encounter anyway. The sexy-shoeless-god-of-war is in his element. Not his time, yet, and if winter wolves show up I suspect he'll do that ranger thing (as he did with the dinosaur) and end up riding one into battle -- for cool points if for no other reason.

Sans.

2017-01-18, 01:58 PM

I don't suppose there's some sort of spell Vaarsuvius could cast to refill the helium in one of the myriad 3.5 supplements?

nocoolnamejim

2017-01-18, 02:27 PM

I don't suppose there's some sort of spell Vaarsuvius could cast to refill the helium in one of the myriad 3.5 supplements?

Limited Wish would do the trick.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm

But I'd be surprised if that's what happens. Doubt Giant wants to go down the rabbit hole of V having access to Wish spells.

Ezekiel

2017-01-18, 02:35 PM

For some reason I can't stop laughing at: :roy: "but chances are, my ranger stabbed all your friends in the elbows..."

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-01-18, 02:48 PM

I don't suppose there's some sort of spell Vaarsuvius could cast to refill the helium in one of the myriad 3.5 supplements?

There is in OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1049.html)

GW

dancrilis

2017-01-18, 02:53 PM

There is in OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1049.html)

GW

Although Vaarsuvius can't conjure (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html), assuming the spell is from the conjuration school of course.

Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) might allow for it if the Giant is feeling generous though.

darkelement

2017-01-18, 02:57 PM

There's been so much discussion of the clash of personalities between Andi and Bandana, and the buildup to this explosion and what each of the two characters could have said or done differently, that I feel like the very immediate clash of priorities, as opposed to personalities, is getting missed.

At bottom, I see this as a case of an irreconcilable conflict between the goals and morality of these two women, not either one of them being contrary just for the sake of spiting the other (not even Andi). Put simply, Bandana wants to be a self-sacrificing hero and Andi isn't on board with it. I feel like one of Bandana's failings as a leader was obfuscating her motives and making excuses instead of being forthright about the fact that she was signing them all up for a suicide mission (And if we're going to go all Elan about this and discuss the shape of the narrative; signing up to ferry the heroes on some crucial mission in the final act to save the world is the definition of a suicide mission in fantasy stories).

The basic genesis of this conflict, and the reason Bandana got wrenched, is that Bandana was willing to risk her life and those of the crew (and their livelihood in the ship) to help save the world, and Andi is not. As has been explained before, these pirates are one of the very select few in a position to escape the destruction of the world and go on living rather than sacrificing themselves in a desperate attempt to avert the coming doom. Bandana has, by her actions, shown that she will gladly sacrifice herself and everyone else on board the ship if it helps the OotS complete their mission. I take the proof of this to be when a frost giant cuts three crew members in half, and Andi reacts to it while Bandana ignores it, still maintaining a laser-like focus on getting the adventurers through the pass.

With that in mind, I think that Andi is (correctly) taking Bandana's insistence that pushing through to reach the other side of the mountains is actually the safest course with a gargantuan grain of salt.

I mean, how is it that "Continuing to fly into an overwhelming barrage of surface-to-air missile fire" has been taken to be the safe and sane course of action here? Do we have any evidence that is the case aside from Bandana's say-so? Whereas taking evasive action and turning out of the ambush is considered reckless to the point of insanity? How do you figure that? We'll have to see what the next strip brings but the benefits to the ship's odds of survival from Andi's mutiny so far have been obvious and immediate.

This is not the same as me saying that Bandana is 'wrong' per se, or acting badly. She clearly has a good alignment while Andi and some of the other pirates don't. But I think that Andi was 100% correct in her assessment that keeping the ship and crew alive is not Bandana's top priority anymore, and I can't really blame her for resenting that. Bandana was well aware that something like this (if not this exact ambush) might happen as a result of her continuing to ferry the OotS, and now the ship is close to wrecked and the crew is being killed but she's still prioritizing the needs of the adventurers (and, well, the world) above all else. I mean, good on her for having such a heroic spirit, but I can't bring myself to blame Andi for reacting the way she has.

nocoolnamejim

2017-01-18, 03:06 PM

Put simply, Bandana wants to be a self-sacrificing hero and Andi isn't on board with it. I feel like one of Bandana's failings as a leader was obfuscating her motives and making excuses instead of being forthright about the fact that she was signing them all up for a suicide mission

Captain Scoundral was pretty upfront about that. He quite literally read his letter putting Bandana in charge towards that very end from the deck of the ship.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html

Not sure you can really blame Bandana for following the orders of her captain. And if Andi had objections to Scoundral's decision she could have spoken up then rather than bitching, moaning and whining about it ever since.

Although to be fair, I don't see her in any of the panels of that strip so I suppose it is possible that Andi doesn't know that Bandana is just following the orders of a captain she's wished back in charge multiple times previously.

But I don't think Bandana has been at all unclear about her motives. In addition to Julio's letter being read outloud by Julio himself, Bandana has on multiple occasions mentioned that they're in the process of saving the world. Most notably here.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html

She's completely open about what they're doing and the crew - with Andi being the sole exception - are completely okay with it so long as they get paid.

Kish

2017-01-18, 03:06 PM

The basic genesis of this conflict, and the reason Bandana got wrenched, is that Bandana was willing to risk her life and those of the crew (and their livelihood in the ship) to help save the world, and Andi is not. As has been explained before, these pirates are one of the very select few in a position to escape the destruction of the world and go on living
You'll need to support that assertion a little better than handwaving "as has been explained before."

I mean, how is it that "Continuing to fly into an overwhelming barrage of surface-to-air missile fire" has been taken to be the safe and sane course of action here? Do we have any evidence that is the case aside from Bandana's say-so? Whereas taking evasive action and turning out of the ambush is considered reckless to the point of insanity? How do you figure that?

You mean other than the immediate "the balloon didn't get patched directly because of that swerve, and continues to lose air" and "the helmsman no longer has an actual destination and is requesting immediate input on which way to go around the mountain right in front of them while the rest of the crew, including Andi, freak out" examples of what you're scoffing at being something the audience is being beaten over the head with?

This is not the same as me saying that Bandana is 'wrong' per se,

Sure looks like it to me. With a side of "but I'd rather my obvious and extreme weighting be viewed as purest objectivity."

hroþila

2017-01-18, 03:22 PM

I definitely don't see Bandana as a self-sacrificing hero. She's simply brave and cool-headed enough to have come up with a plan that is very dangerous, but perfectly rational and designed to maximize their chances of survival.

Jasdoif

2017-01-18, 03:29 PM

The basic genesis of this conflict, and the reason Bandana got wrenched, is that Bandana was willing to risk her life and those of the crew (and their livelihood in the ship) to help save the world, and Andi is not.Really? 'cause I seem to remember (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html) Andi lashing out over Bandana's short-term view of Andi, not Bandana's long-term view of the Mechane.

nocoolnamejim

2017-01-18, 03:44 PM

Really? 'cause I seem to remember (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html) Andi lashing out over Bandana's short-term view of Andi, not Bandana's long-term view of the Mechane.

There's also this here.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html

Andi's beef clearly seems personal to me. She felt she deserved to have the ship and be in charge and assumes that the only reason Scoundrel left Bandana in charge was to get her some experience because she's "just a kid". (A phrase that has come up repeatedly.) She sees no other explanation for why Julio passed her over...like maybe that her people skills suck and a Captain has to have those?

Also, she's fixed the ship for 15 years so she'd have more of a "claim" on it if Scoundrel was really retiring? That typically isn't how these things work. She has no claim on the ship just because she's worked on it for a lot of years. Whomever owns the ship gets to decide that sort of thing.

She's basically been stewing ever since Scoundrel picked Bandana over her to run the ship in his absence.

luagha

2017-01-18, 03:51 PM

As an aside, it's an indication of how far Roy has come in that he's been taking hits/parrying/swinging with two Giants (likely tougher ones with class levels) and he's barely showing any injury.

They must be afraid of his high-ish fighter armor class and not be Power Attacking.

arrowed

2017-01-18, 04:00 PM

Is there any official ruling on Andi/Bandana/the crews' alignments? I'd peg most of the crew as neutral on the good-evil slider, with the whole 'getting paid' strip, and probably Andi too, but I'm not sure whether I'd call Bandana good or neutral. :smallconfused: On one hand Bandana is risking herself, her friends and her ship for the survival of the world. On the other hand, she lives on the world. But at the same time, the rest of the crew, who know the stakes to some extent, are not as committed. Is the difference made up by her somewhat stronger relationship with the Order?
Chaos seems a given for a crew that indiscriminately ignores the laws of wherever they are when convenient, but like most alignment questions this is probably way different from the right perspective. :smallsmile:

Keltest

2017-01-18, 04:06 PM

Christian

2017-01-18, 04:07 PM

Similarly, my RN isn't actually going to hang me or make me walk the plank for violating my ethical responsibilities. She's just going to fire my ass and call the police. Chaosism cuts both ways.

Man, now I'm hoping that when I'm too old to care for myself, my kids put me in a pirate-run nursing home.

Spellbreaker26

2017-01-18, 04:10 PM

She sees no other explanation for why Julio passed her over...like maybe that her people skills suck and a Captain has to have those?

I actually don't think her people skills suck outright. Her interactions with Roy and Belkar show a more-or-less reasonable personality. It's only when Bandana's in the room that she acts like a brat.

It's possible that Julio thinks that Bandana would make a better captain based on other factors. I suspect having a level head in a crisis is one of these; this is a vital skill for any captain.

Kish

2017-01-18, 04:22 PM

Quibblicious

2017-01-18, 04:46 PM

8BitNinja

2017-01-18, 04:51 PM

When I get old, I want to live in a home where I can take it over by conquest.

Q

Then why didn't you become a fighter or barbarian?

KorvinStarmast

2017-01-18, 04:56 PM

When I get old, I want to live in a home where I can take it over by conquest. Q I just reviewed the strip where Elan and Roy discuss Helium and the ship.

The Giants can crash the ship by cutting the lines/ropes that suspend the ship from the gas bag. (I am not referring to Roy). However, they may be smart enough (or their leader may be smart enough) to realize that they only need to get it leaking for it to settle down (rather than crash) which puts the crew and their passengers on the ground where more of the giants can get at them. Were they to cut the lines, it would be a suicide mission for the frost giants who'd then also go down with the ship.

Or, they could cut the lines on one side and the ship would list heavily to that side. With the propellers configured as they are, the ship would mostly fly in circles with all hand on deck either sliding off or hanging on for dear life.

All of this based on "how the airship works" discussion Roy and Elan had, and the drawing of the ship as presented.

Chei

2017-01-18, 05:20 PM

Now that Andi's, for the moment anyway, an important enough character to remember the name of from one strip to the next, I'm looking back at her interaction with Belkar and wondering about her incuriosity when Belkar outright says that holy water hurts him.

I wonder just how thoroughly "Captain Andi" would ditch the "heroic" in "heroic pirates," if the choice was hers.

Eh, I'm thinking that panel is meant to be glossed over for the sake of a joke. She didn't comment on his sophisticated Halfling palette either. Even if we're meant to take Andi's dismissal absolutely seriously, she was still the person least on board with having Greg on board aside from Belkar himself. So unless it's only Evil people who naturally distrust vampires, I think we give her a pass here. She's just a huge Neutral jerk, in my book.

Snails

2017-01-18, 05:44 PM

If the previous order to launch still stood, then the other ships would still launch. The Captain was clearly acting irrationally. He was willing to destroy the world without full information.

To be fair to the captain, there are specific standard operating procedures for ignoring apparent partial transmissions for a good reason: some order style encryptions could be partially hacked, such that you find a key that can only correctly decode or encode a portion of the full message. The working assumption is that your communications are secure enough that full and complete false orders are unlikely, but you can never really know about a partial message. So the captain was not crazy to assert that partial messages are not messages.

The Brits ran into this a lot with their project Ultra during WW2. When the beginning portion of the message indicated the full message was very important, they would keep cranking the magic machine to search for the correct key. In most cases, the partial decrypt demonstrated that the particular message could be ignored, or the full message was not so important as trying to crack more recent messages.

skim172

2017-01-18, 06:15 PM

The bridge of a ship in a crisis is no time or place for a debate. A ship in GENERAL is no place for a debate. Bandana had the right to expect that the crew would attend to their assigned duties (in Andi's case this means fixing things) and follow her orders. Andi was doing neither and Bandana was entirely right to call her out on it.

Not that this should matter, because in what universe is it acceptable to assault a superior because they spoke to you sharply for shirking your duties?

Oh, no doubt about Andi being in the wrong here. I'm pretty sure wrenching your boss in the head is a bad idea in many situations.

But this certainly isn't the ideal outcome. Taking a wrench in the head from a subordinate is unlikely to be considered the best outcome in any situation, even if said subordinate is a total jerk. And so looking at it purely from the consequences, Bandana's leadership has not gone well.

Morally, Bandana is totally in the right. Andi is being a jealous petty jerk who's failing to do her job or help our her crewmates.

But using the example of military command structures, it's a lot more complicated than "I am your commander, you obey me." That statement is true, but the modern military trains its officers over years to learn how to manage and get the most out of their subordinates. Asserting seniority might get a subordinate to obey you, but they'll be more effective in their duties if you and they have a good relationship.

With that in mind, I would say Bandana hasn't necessarily adapted to leadership all that well. Ignoring Andi's grousing for so long was a poor - if understandable - decision. Andi's bad behavior was affecting her work and causing friction with her crewmates. Either Bandana should've tried to work out something with Andi, or found an alternative solution for her chief engineer.

Losing your cool in a crisis is quite understandable - but isn't good leadership. There's a reason why the modern navy tends to prefer even-tempered, easygoing captains. The captains of nuclear missile subs in particular are known as the friendliest, most laid back, calmest people you'll ever meet.

Again, Andi is completely in the wrong here. There's few situations where wrenching someone in the skull puts you in the right.

But that is an important facet of leadership: sometimes, being right isn't enough to be a good leader. Learning how to manage complete jerks is a vital skill in leadership - and not an easy one.

That said, I still blame Julio for all this. Suddenly abandon a crew which is almost entirely united by their cult-like adoration of you, and put a young first-timer in charge with nary a word of endorsement. The least Julio could've done is give a speech like, "Hey, guys - Bandana is the awesomest. Listen to her, why not."

dancrilis

2017-01-18, 06:27 PM

Again, Andi is completely in the wrong here. There's few situations where wrenching someone in the skull puts you in the right.

Well ... if Andi knew (based on her skill set) that any more boulder strikes would certainly kill them and was trying to say '... but Little Miss Junior Captain here won't listen to me tell her that a single additional strike will compromise the ships structural integrity and kill us all and we can do nothing about that with the tool on hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html)' than she might not be in the wrong at all.

We have no way of knowing that of course - but Andi might.

hroþila

2017-01-18, 06:33 PM

Xyril

2017-01-18, 06:39 PM

I actually don't think her people skills suck outright. Her interactions with Roy and Belkar show a more-or-less reasonable personality. It's only when Bandana's in the room that she acts like a brat.

It's possible that Julio thinks that Bandana would make a better captain based on other factors. I suspect having a level head in a crisis is one of these; this is a vital skill for any captain.

Respectfully, I think you're setting the bar way too low with regards to what counts as people skills that don't suck. The ability to make small talk with acquaintances with whom you have no substantial conflicts without flying into a rage--or alternately, the ability to deal with customers without going out of your way to offend them--is the full extent to which Andi's people skills have been demonstrated. To me, that takes her out of "has an obvious, debilitating cognitive disorder" territory, but doesn't by itself raise her to even the low bar of "doesn't suck." The measure of your people skills isn't about how you get along with guys you are apathetic towards, or guys you really like, or guys who agree with you on everything--it's about whether you're able to work productively with people who you dislike, who disagree with you, even in stressful situations.

Regardless of how you split that particular hair though, I think we can both agree that Andi's have demonstrably fallen short of being "good," which is what you would want in a Captain. As others have pointed out, a coherent chain of command is perhaps even more important on an outlaw ship than on a conventional military vessel, and it's even harder to keep together because a pirate ship lacks the indoctrination and enforcement institutions of an official navy. That's why in the case of real pirates, the successful captains are the ones who are able to convince people to voluntarily submit to another's orders on the long term, to the extent that they're essentially consenting in advance to be punished later if they disobey orders or commit some other infraction. Knowing what people want and how to give it to them, how to balance enforcing discipline with creating a a sense that your crew is valued, that requires good people skills.

I believe Julio left Bandanna in charge because of her demonstrated ability not to panic in battle, and because she has the potential to develop good people skills. As others have pointed out, she has a lot of room to improve. Particular, the situation with Andi demonstrates a lack of ability to proactively spot issues arising from other people's personality problems--the management equivalent of defensive driving. Nonetheless, Bandanna is far more talented in this area than Andi, whose people skills are self-sabotaging. To extend the driving metaphor, Andi's the driver who keeps running red lights and yelling at the people who almost hit her, while Bandanna's main failing is that she isn't watching out for bad drivers. In terms of the management aspect of people skills, Andi was unable to convince any of the crew to see her side of things--which demonstrates a substantial lack of ability considering that, objectively speaking, Andi's position on helping the Order is much safer and more beneficial to the crew than following Bandanna/Julio's directives. In terms of the introspective side, Andi is even worse. As much as Andi (and dancrilis) might convince herself that trying to murder her captain was a selfless act motivated purely by some previously unmentioned duty to protect the ship at all costs, Andi is clearly quite jealous that Bandanna was put in charge, which led to a major deterioration in their relationship and caused substantial bias in her judgment. While the animosity goes both ways, I believe Bandanna is actually aware of this bias and tries not let it cloud her judgment. Bandanna has not obviously allowed her dislike of Andi's attitude to undermine her opinion of Andi's technical skills and advice, and she has enough self-control not to yell momentarily satisfying, but ultimately unproductive, crap back at her.

Alternately, other pirate captains manage to succeed by being flippin' terrifying, to both their targets and their own crews. You could call that a subset of people skills, and in that respect Andi is heading int he right direction.

dps

2017-01-18, 06:49 PM

Xyril

2017-01-18, 06:50 PM

If Andi believes the Mechane can't take a single additional hit, she should have said so. She got off quite a few speech balloons there before Bandana cut her off. Giving the captain a clear picture of the mechanical state of the ship is Andi's responsibility too, so if what you're saying is true, well, that'd be another way her professionalism fell short of sterling.

Exactly. If the engines canna take anymore, Captain, that's the very first thing out of Scotty's mouth. If instead he first spends five minutes on a whiny, passive-aggressive rant questioning why the hell Starfleet put Kirk in charge of a star ship, no reasonable captain would spend another five minutes listening on the off chance there's some critical information coming later. If anything, coddling a spoiled child in a combat situation instead of dedicating that time and attention to another crew member who has something useful to say is completely irresponsible.

Chei

2017-01-18, 06:59 PM

To extend the driving metaphor, Andi's the driver who keeps running red lights and yelling at the people who almost hit her, while Bandanna's main failing is that she isn't watching out for bad drivers.

What this logicfolk said. And yeah, most of the people rushing to defend Andi either ignored or missed the rather crucial timing of her wrench-smack. It didn't happen because Bandana disagreed with Andi's absolute authority on the ship's condition. It happened because Andi was insulted. Full stop.

8BitNinja

2017-01-18, 07:29 PM

Vynn

2017-01-18, 07:51 PM

It didn't happen because Bandana disagreed with Andi's absolute authority on the ship's condition. It happened because Andi was insulted. Full stop.

The important point being that the criticism, while using exaggerated imagery, was completely justified. So she overloaded and shot the messenger, so to speak, rather than acceping the truth of it and getting a grip on herself.

Some life wisdom from the Giant there, as this seems to be the more common reaction. :p

Knaight

2017-01-18, 07:59 PM

You misunderstand, I am not arguing that Andi doesn't get the job done (when she is actually doing her job). I am just pointing out that, as far as I am aware, we only know two things about Andi's mechanical repairs:

1) They keep the ship flying,
2) They make it difficult for "real repairs" later

Obviously she is accomplishing her job. However, as far as I remember, the only comment about the quality of her work was that it is a jury-rigging mess.

The quality of that particular work, yes. The argument here seems to be along the lines of "Sure, she fixed a bunch of dramatic damages without adequate parts in a necessary rush, but the fix wasn't up to the standard of a fix with adequate parts where there wasn't a rush." That's not a particularly convincing argument.

Marlowe

2017-01-18, 08:33 PM

I don't know about that. How else is the Coast Guard supposed to have debate night?

Specific trumps general.

SirElderberry

2017-01-18, 08:47 PM

Well ... if Andi knew (based on her skill set) that any more boulder strikes would certainly kill them and was trying to say '... but Little Miss Junior Captain here won't listen to me tell her that a single additional strike will compromise the ships structural integrity and kill us all and we can do nothing about that with the tool on hand[/URL]' than she might not be in the wrong at all.

We have no way of knowing that of course - but Andi might.

Let us, for a moment, assume this is true. That still does not explain her actions as anything other than an angry rant by a highly unprofessional engineer. If in fact her professional opinion is that another hit would almost certainly destroy the ship and kill the crew, then including "stubborn little brat" and "Little Miss Junior Captain" is still wrong and likely to get this ignored. Deciding to leave this statement until after explicitly rejecting the captain's status and authority as captain is wrong. Which means even under the ridiculous assumption that Andi's next statement was going to be some validation of her actions and not simply "but Little Miss Junior Captain isn't paying attention to me," she still did the wrong thing and acted in a manner that is unacceptable on any ship, pirate included.

Jasdoif

2017-01-18, 09:59 PM

The quality of that particular work, yes. The argument here seems to be along the lines of "Sure, she fixed a bunch of dramatic damages without adequate parts in a necessary rush, but the fix wasn't up to the standard of a fix with adequate parts where there wasn't a rush." That's not a particularly convincing argument.Yeah; Andi being capable of patching the problem on the spot, that a dedicated facility required hours to fix, seems to me like the most important take-away from that.

F.Harr

2017-01-18, 10:37 PM

No, Roy, that happens to be the people running the boat you're standing on.

But it's all for drama, it'll be fine. Beneath the Planet of the Apes . was . . . very very sad at the end.

Sybarith

2017-01-19, 12:05 AM

:roy: : Or my Wizard killed them all and everyone they went to high school with, but let's not dwell on that.

You commit one little act of genocide and the party leader never lets you live it down

Quibblicious

2017-01-19, 10:46 AM

Then why didn't you become a fighter or barbarian?

Because conquest via charisma is much more effective. You turn your opponents into allies and let them fight the battles.

Or back you up while you convince the next target that "Gee, he'd make a great leader! Let's follow him!" so no one has to fight at all.

Q

Shining Wrath

2017-01-19, 11:12 AM

I think we're heading for a mountainside crash at this point. Elan's Mending fizzling and the navigator announcing there's a mountain in front of them suggest things aren't going to go well. As for Andi, she maybe might have considered that the reason the frost giants are all along the mainline of the pass is because it's the only way through, and they're not stupid?

There's one path marked on the map. The Frost Giants, who live there, lined that path. Either everyone has missed a perfectly acceptable secondary path, or Andi's screwed the proverbial pooch.

Said "maintenance" also involved repairs from extensive damage involving being caught directly in a nasty storm and fixing up the ship with an utterly inadequate supply of spare parts. There's absolutely no reason to think that Andi is anything but competent at her job, other than people disliking the character and extrapolating ineptitude that wasn't there from the dislike.

I think Andi has been clearly portrayed as being good at fixing the ship.

Objectively, we can say Bandana's leadership has not been good because it led to her getting hit in the head with a wrench.

I mean, I don't know if she could've done it any better or if any changes would've improved the situation. But the ideal outcome of her leadership would probably include not getting wrenched in the head.

Maybe she could've been less insulting at that last point - try to keep her cool and her tongue when dealing with an annoying subordinate. Long-term, she could've tried to address Andi's obvious bitterness - ignoring a person's resentment towards you is a good idea in most relationships, but not when dealing with an employee. "Brushing off haters" is tough when said haters work for you and their performance is vital to your efforts. That's an important management lesson for us all - never ignore an employee's grievances. You don't have to give in to those grievances, but you do need to address them, because otherwise you're just ignoring a problem that will only grow bigger and bring down the whole team.

But c'mon - it's Bandana's first management position. She'll learn ... unless there's permanent brain damage from the aforementioned head-wrenching. But now we learn the important function that Human Resources provide. This could have all been potentially avoided with a proper HR department on-board the Mechane to hear out Andi's grievances, to mediate a discussion with Bandana, and to provide Andi with workshops on Anger Management and Constructive Criticism.

So really, this is ultimately Julio Scoundrel's fault for putting together a faulty corporate structure and a management system based primarily on Charisma checks. :smallannoyed:

I don't know if you've ever read any of H. Beam Piper's alternative reality stuff, but imagine that every time any sentient being makes a decision, a new set of universes are spawned, one for each of the possible choices they could have made. Some decisions are insignificant, and those choices don't spawn too many children; some important with lots and lots of repercussions.

I'm going to argue that almost all of the universes spawned by Julio's decisions to leave Bandana in charge of the Mechane, with Andi still on board, and Julio not telling Andi in no uncertain terms that Bandana was in charge, Andi winds up trying to usurp Bandana's authority in some fashion. That's not Bandana's fault. And most of the other universes wind up with the world destroyed by failure of the Order's mission, which is not a good goal for Bandana to aim for.

Bandana's alive! Yay!

Looks like the team is trying to handle this like a family rather than a crew, and not everyone is onboard with Andi's action. Regardless, the ship needs one CO at the moment rather than a committee.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Which is another way that Andi's panic has negative consequences - no one can be sure who's in charge at a moment of crisis.

Correct.
In a universe dominated by Millenials, or a 'verse dreamed up by dancrilis.

Seriously, the apologia for negligence, picking the wrong time to air a grievance (during combat on the bridge of the ship), direct insubordination, and mutiny ... is both lame and uninformed. (Note for dancrilis: in Crimson Tide, Gene Hackman's Captain was the one violating the book, hence the grudging support for the XO from from C.O.B! Not so in Bandana's case. Andi is violating multiple duties and rules).

Mateo's frustration is well earned, since Andi (senior officer present with the Captain incapacitated for any reason) has ordered a course deviation from the charted course into shoal water. Uncharted waters ... usually a sign of trouble.

Thought:

Based on a previous post about Wis, Int, and Cha, it occurs to me that Andi's dump stat is as likely to be Wis as Cha. Her competence as a mechanic/engineer is already established, so I'll guess here Int is solid. Plenty of smart people lack sense/common sense/judgment. Her lack of judgment argues for Wis being low.

for Keltest:
So long as it's in the Nick of Time, Elan's following his calling as a bard and the mentorship of Julio will be confirmed.

No need to insult millennials. They are in large part living in a world they didn't make.
Anyway, heading into uncharted waters at 2/3 full with no clear officer in charge and under fire from enemy forces sounds like panic to me.

Indeed. Some pirates even had laws governing the compensation for injuries sustained during the course of their activities.

I'm starting to rethink my characterization of pirates as chaotic, come to think of it.

Lawful evil or Lawful neutral sounds right to me. They lived by rules, but THEIR rules, not society's.

I think she gets unduly hard on people when captaining. How she treats Andi has the same general scope as how Andi treats her, so that could be just be the baseline for their relationship; but how she talks to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html)?

She was brusque but not insulting. And it was a moment of crisis.

When I get old, I want to live in a home where I can take it over by conquest.

Q

Live by yourself with only a dog, then. Dogs submit easily. If you get a cat, you're screwed.

Quibblicious

2017-01-19, 11:18 AM

I don't know about that. How else is the Coast Guard supposed to have debate night?

They do it on shore.

Q

Shining Wrath

2017-01-19, 11:55 AM

They do it on shore.

Q

They do it while they are coasting, obviously.

Werbaer

2017-01-19, 12:34 PM

I'm wondering if we will see the "Falling Rocs" soon, now that we leave the "Falling Rocks" region.

anonymsly

2017-01-19, 12:43 PM

Andi. It's not all fine. It's not even some fine. You stupid felonious jerkface.

Thanks to Andi, the Mechane is now losing magic air and altitude in an uncharted-airspace situation, the person trying to fix the 'losing air and altitude' bit has been thwarted, the person whose whole job is to fix things, is continuing to have her oh-so-commanding temper tantrum, and there are still two giants tearing up the ship itself.

If Bandana were still upright and commanding, at the very least Elan would have been able to Mend that air leak. If Andi bothered to take time out of her busy tantrum schedule to do her job (or follow the orders of her captain), some of the nav fins (or whatever) might be unstuck. And hey, if Elan had been able to complete his Mending, he'd be able to shimmy back down to deck and speed up the removal of the two giants Roy is currently failing to solo.

I wouldn't even wait for a port to put Andi off the ship. Toss her into a snowdrift and leave her there. She might die, she might not, but at least she wouldn't be taking anyone else with her. Her decisions have already cost the crew and the Mechane a LOT and we're only minutes into her usurped command.

I don't think Julio's getting his ship back after all.

anonymsly

2017-01-19, 12:51 PM

She was brusque but not insulting. And it was a moment of crisis.

Agreed! And it's worth pointing out that the rest of the order had already volunteered to help and take useful roles aboard ship to deal with that crisis. (Belkar hadn't, but no one in their right mind expects Belkar to help with anything.) Roy was just standing around on deck doing nothing. I'd've gotten annoyed at that too, if I were Bandana. Especially since it turned out that all he had to do to be useful was 'hold a rope so my engineer can go back to fixing things so we don't all die here'.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-01-19, 01:10 PM

the Mechane is now losing magic air

There is nothing magical about the Helium (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1049.html), other than the method by which is obtained.

(Also, a friendly reminder that mods prefer us to not double post)

GW

Chei

2017-01-19, 01:11 PM

If Bandana were still upright and commanding, at the very least Elan would have been able to Mend that air leak. If Andi bothered to take time out of her busy tantrum schedule to do her job (or follow the orders of her captain), some of the nav fins (or whatever) might be unstuck. And hey, if Elan had been able to complete his Mending, he'd be able to shimmy back down to deck and speed up the removal of the two giants Roy is currently failing to solo.

Further, since they're off the pass and now have to maneuver around every mountain, it's possible that they will have to keep turning and delaying Elan's patch job. I mean, it's dramatic and all to show the spell fizzling, but that in itself is still only a six second delay. My read is that those panels were there to indicate that Elan straight-up can't fix the tear unless the ship is taking a relatively smooth course.

pendell

2017-01-19, 01:15 PM

Agreed! And it's worth pointing out that the rest of the order had already volunteered to help and take useful roles aboard ship to deal with that crisis. (Belkar hadn't, but no one in their right mind expects Belkar to help with anything.) Roy was just standing around on deck doing nothing. I'd've gotten annoyed at that too, if I were Bandana. Especially since it turned out that all he had to do to be useful was 'hold a rope so my engineer can go back to fixing things so we don't all die here'.

Check me on this, but isn't part of the reason DIs yell in boot camp is to accustom one to dealing with stress, and the fact that when people are under stress they tend to ignore the polite courtesies of normal conversation? :smallamused:

Also, you've got to expect people to yell in a battle or onboard a ship in combat. Machinery is loud. Guns are loud. Frost Giants smashing the ship are loud. Rocks hitting the ship are loud. It's not a time for your inside voice or for subtle conversation. It's a time to say what you mean as loudly, clearly, as forthrightly as possible.

Bandanna's snapping at Andi wasn't even a provocation. If a little screaming gets to you, your place is on the ground working in a library or an office ,not as chief engineer of a pirate ship.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Shining Wrath

2017-01-19, 03:36 PM

Further, since they're off the pass and now have to maneuver around every mountain, it's possible that they will have to keep turning and delaying Elan's patch job. I mean, it's dramatic and all to show the spell fizzling, but that in itself is still only a six second delay. My read is that those panels were there to indicate that Elan straight-up can't fix the tear unless the ship is taking a relatively smooth course.

Elan should have high dexterity, it's normally stat #2 for a bard (right after charisma, of course).

Check me on this, but isn't part of the reason DIs yell in boot camp is to accustom one to dealing with stress, and the fact that when people are under stress they tend to ignore the polite courtesies of normal conversation? :smallamused:

Also, you've got to expect people to yell in a battle or onboard a ship in combat. Machinery is loud. Guns are loud. Frost Giants smashing the ship are loud. Rocks hitting the ship are loud. It's not a time for your inside voice or for subtle conversation. It's a time to say what you mean as loudly, clearly, as forthrightly as possible.

Bandanna's snapping at Andi wasn't even a provocation. If a little screaming gets to you, your place is on the ground working in a library or an office ,not as chief engineer of a pirate ship.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I think it's more to ensure people realize they are no longer civilians and that obeying orders is not something they get to think about.

I think the basic story on Andi is:

She trusted Julio but not Bandana
Because she doesn't trust Bandana, she panicked in the first combat situation with Bandana in command
Both smacking Bandana with a wrench, and turning off the only known path through the mountains, are bad decisions driven by fear
No rational crew member will want Andi on the Mechane if they survive this, because panic in combat is not so good on a pirate ship. Unless Julio comes back, which seems unlikely

arrowed

2017-01-19, 04:15 PM

Not fluffing a spell in bad weather or similar circumstances uses the concentration skill, which is constitution based, which might be less high for Elan.

JumboWheat01

2017-01-19, 04:27 PM

Unfortunately the Wiki (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Elan)doesn't help in that regard. All we know is that his Con score is the same as his brother's, and that apparently Concentration's not one of the skills he has ranks in, meaning he has to rely on his natural modifier.

Never a smart idea for a caster of any sort, really, but then again, Elan isn't known for smarts. Only for that Charisma.

pendell

2017-01-19, 04:49 PM

Elan should have high dexterity, it's normally stat #2 for a bard (right after charisma, of course).

I think the basic story on Andi is:

She trusted Julio but not Bandana
Because she doesn't trust Bandana, she panicked in the first combat situation with Bandana in command
Both smacking Bandana with a wrench, and turning off the only known path through the mountains, are bad decisions driven by fear
No rational crew member will want Andi on the Mechane if they survive this, because panic in combat is not so good on a pirate ship. Unless Julio comes back, which seems unlikely

Observation: This appears to be a failure of the chaotic alignment, at least in Rich's universe. Lord Shojo in Azure City had the same problem; he created a delicate political machine to run Azure City which entirely depended on his own personal abilities. When he was removed from the picture, his successor Hinjo did not command the respect of the city nobles. With the result that, rather than pitch in wholeheartedly to save the city, they were among the first to abandon it and sic ninja assassins on him to further their own ambitions.

We're seeing a replay of that same situation here. Andi is a "noble" on board ship who doesn't trust the upstart whippersnapper taking the place of the aged responsible leader whom the entire social order revolves around. So that rather than giving her best effort she's sabotaging Bandanna's efforts. Being too poor to afford ninjas, she has to do the job herself with a wrench. But her motivations and actions aren't all *that* different from what Lord Kubota did in the same situation.

As I said -- chaotics seem to be very good at building things that rely heavily on one person's personal abilities, which fall apart if that person absents zirself for even a short period of time.

ETA: Okay, that's a little bit unfair to Andi because she snapped in a fit of passion and didn't intend to kill Bandanna. Of course, she doesn't respect the new leader any more than Kubota did. But she's not a cold-blooded murderer of her captain.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Shining Wrath

2017-01-19, 04:56 PM

Observation: This appears to be a failure of the chaotic alignment, at least in Rich's universe. Lord Shojo in Azure City had the same problem; he created a delicate political machine to run Azure City which entirely depended on his own personal abilities. When he was removed from the picture, his successor Hinjo did not command the respect of the city nobles. With the result that, rather than pitch in wholeheartedly to save the city, they were among the first to abandon it and sic ninja assassins on him to further their own ambitions.

We're seeing a replay of that same situation here. Andi is a "noble" on board ship who doesn't trust the upstart whippersnapper taking the place of the aged responsible leader whom the entire social order revolves around. So that rather than giving her best effort she's sabotaging Bandanna's efforts. Being too poor to afford ninjas, she has to do the job herself with a wrench. But her motivations and actions aren't all *that* different from what Lord Kubota did in the same situation.

As I said -- chaotics seem to be very good at building things that rely heavily on one person's personal abilities, which fall apart if that person absents zirself for even a short period of time.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I think it's at least possible that any highly charismatic person who rules for a long time and then departs suddenly will leave their successor in a difficult situation, regardless of alignment.

Chei

2017-01-19, 05:08 PM

Elan should have high dexterity, it's normally stat #2 for a bard (right after charisma, of course).

Both smacking Bandana with a wrench, and turning off the only known path through the mountains, are bad decisions driven by fear

Concentration is a Constitution skill, and it's not a bard skill IIRC. Elan should actually be pretty bad at casting a spell in such adverse conditions.

Also, I agree with your entire list except the part quoted. Andi did not smack Bandana with a wrench out of fear. It's really, really clearly shown that she did it out of anger and a bruised ego.

Kish

2017-01-19, 05:14 PM

Concentration is a class skill for bards. I can't think of any class with spells that doesn't have in-class Concentration, offhand.

JumboWheat01

2017-01-19, 05:19 PM

Concentration is a Constitution skill, and it's not a bard skill IIRC. Elan should actually be pretty bad at casting a spell in such adverse conditions.

Also, I agree with your entire list except the part quoted. Andi did not smack Bandana with a wrench out of fear. It's really, really clearly shown that she did it out of anger and a bruised ego.

The bard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise
(Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con),
Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha),
Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump
(Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis),
Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive
(Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int),
Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha). See
Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Of course, Elan probably doesn't have the INT modifier to get all the useful skills he needs, like Concentration...

dancrilis

2017-01-19, 05:28 PM

Concentration is a class skill for bards. I can't think of any class with spells that doesn't have in-class Concentration, offhand.

Assassin I believe - but you might not be counting Prestige Classes.

snowblizz

2017-01-19, 05:30 PM

Observation: This appears to be a failure of the chaotic alignment, at least in Rich's universe. Lord Shojo in Azure City had the same problem; he created a delicate political machine to run Azure City which entirely depended on his own personal abilities. Actually Shojo neither created nor exactly ran it on personal abilities. At least visibly. Remeber he fakes senility to be able to rule as he wished (mandatory meatloaf!) by subterfuge after being opposed directly. So in a sense he uses his chaotic "abilities" to game the system. Which is specifically the lesson he teaches Belkar. Cheat the system.

We're seeing a replay of that same situation here. Andi is a "noble" on board ship who doesn't trust the upstart whippersnapper taking the place of the aged responsible leader whom the entire social order revolves around.

As I said -- chaotics seem to be very good at building things that rely heavily on one person's personal abilities, which fall apart if that person absents zirself for even a short period of time.

Seeing as chaotic doesn't believe in the systems, only the characters, that makes sense. But is the natural weakness of "system" that's person centric too. Not that I can say senile-Shojo would represent a responsible leader in the same way as say Julio, but I get your gist, and do agree with a basic premise that chaotic rely on people's abilities.
Chaotic Evil rules through personal power, Chaotic Good through force of personality, essentially same for both. There are no "failsafes" for lack of personal ability as a more lawbased system likely would have.

I think it's at least possible that any highly charismatic person who rules for a long time and then departs suddenly will leave their successor in a difficult situation, regardless of alignment.
The track record of real world historical rulers would certainly agree.

Shining Wrath

2017-01-19, 06:04 PM

8BitNinja

2017-01-19, 06:11 PM

Of course, Elan probably doesn't have the INT modifier to get all the useful skills he needs, like Concentration...

Concentration is based off of CON, it's in the list.

dancrilis

2017-01-19, 06:16 PM

Concentration is based off of CON, it's in the list.

I believe the point being made was that Elan has limited skill points due to low Intelligence and Concentration may have been skipped in favour of Perform Kazoo (for example).

8BitNinja

2017-01-19, 06:28 PM

I believe the point being made was that Elan has limited skill points due to low Intelligence and Concentration may have been skipped in favour of Perform Kazoo (for example).

Oh, I forgot how INT decides your skill amount. My bad.

Xyril

2017-01-19, 06:33 PM

No need to insult millennials. They are in large part living in a world they didn't make.

This is technically true of every generation who has ever lived. I suppose you could argue that during long centuries where societies didn't advance perceptibly, then each generation can be more fairly blamed for their own circumstances, because the world they created for the next generation is identical to the one they inherited, but for the most part, we're all stuck with what we inherited, so by this logic, either we ALL are absolved of any personal responsibility for who we become, or we all actually take some responsibility.

You make a fair point that maybe it's a bit sloppy to make sweeping generalizations about millennials, but from context the intent seemed obvious to me. I don't think Korvin was disparaging the millennials who are living with their parents graduating with a ton of debt and terrible job prospects, circumstances that as you note was largely out of their control. From the context (i.e., the part you quoted), it's clear that Korvin was referencing the attitude among Andi and her defenders that overemphasizes being considerate towards Andi's feelings and opinions, to the point where they are being given priority over everything else, including the well-being of everybody.

Now, if you're arguing that it was an unfair shot to take at millennials because not all of them are narcissistic and self-absorbed, I would agree. But if you're arguing that the narcissism should somehow be excused because "They are in large part living in a world they didn't make," then I strongly disagree.

I feel the same way about some of the arguments supporting Andi. Yes, Julio could have handled his departure better. Yes, Bandanna could have realized that she needed to go out of her way to handle Andi. Yes, had other people handled things differently, it's quite possible that Andi's glaring personal issues never would have become such a huge problem. But why are Andi's problems so important that the responsibility falls to everyone else to go out of their way to accommodate them?

Chei

2017-01-19, 06:33 PM

She was angry, but she gave into her anger out of fear and panic. Why was she standing next to Bandana arguing? Because she was scared for her life.

The lack of respect, the fear, and the anger all built on one another.

Like, I get it - I'm not going to say that fear was at 0% when she swung the wrench. But really, seriously, she did not give into her anger out of fear and panic. If anything, anger overrode the fear and panic for that one moment.

In fact, Andi was already getting angry the longer Bandana rejected her suggestions. It just reached a tipping point when Bandana attacked Andi's ego. The Giant has shown us enough characters whose escalating anger increasingly guides their actions, and Andi shows every sign of it. At times like that, anger is the major controlling force, not any other underlying concerns.

A person who is genuinely, immediately afraid for her life does not continue to passive-aggressively snap at someone's heels. She does not vent long-running frustrations about little brats who won't listen. She definitely doesn't wrench them in the back of the head when they snap back harder. It's anger.

I wouldn't have even taken an issue originally, except you completely left out that anger and egoism, which made me think you forgot. If you didn't and just felt it didn't need mentioning, mea culpa.

I believe the point being made was that Elan has limited skill points due to low Intelligence and Concentration may have been skipped in favour of Perform Kazoo (for example).

Yeah, I would buy this, but it's weird. Bards have a huge number of skillpoints naturally, like a 6+Int/Level, second only to a rogue's +8. Where are they all going?

JumboWheat01

2017-01-19, 06:39 PM

Yeah, I would buy this, but its weird. Bards have a huge number of skillpoints naturally, like a 6+Int/Level, second only to a rogue's +8. Where are they all going?

Well, according to the OotS Wiki, Elan has between 4-10 INT, which means he gets 7 skill points MAX per level (he is human.) Of course, INT is noted as his dump stat, so he most likely has less.

Also, supposedly, this is Elan's known skill set:

Craft: Shiv 0
Diplomacy
Hide
Listen (Higher than Sir François)
Move Silently < 3
Perform: Riddles 2+
Perform: Sing 12+
Perform: String instruments 15+
Perform: kazoo
Ride 2+
Spot 0
Spellcraft 2+
Tumble

Kish

2017-01-19, 06:48 PM

Well, according to the OotS Wiki, Elan has between 4-10 INT, which means he gets 7 skill points MAX per level (he is human.) Of course, INT is noted as his dump stat, so he most likely has less.

Also, supposedly, this is Elan's known skill set:

Craft: Shiv 0
Diplomacy
Hide
Listen (Higher than Sir François)
Move Silently < 3
Perform: Riddles 2+
Perform: Sing 12+
Perform: String instruments 15+
Perform: kazoo
Ride 2+
Spot 0
Spellcraft 2+
Tumble
I don't have any direct contradictions for that, but let's be clear on the weight here: the only difference between quoting that stuff from the OotS wiki and quoting it from some random not-mod's forum post is that you'd know the person's screen name if it was a forum post.

JumboWheat01

2017-01-19, 06:57 PM

I haven't been around here long enough to know any of the good info posts by heart and/or have them under my subscriptions or bookmarks, I just go with what I know I can access fast.

Peelee

2017-01-19, 07:11 PM

I haven't been around here long enough to know any of the good info posts by heart and/or have them under my subscriptions or bookmarks, I just go with what I know I can access fast.

Ctrl+F for "class" on the first page of this subforum hits the Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485983-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIV-We-are-the-Geek-Pantheon) thread. Which is just as unofficial as anything else, but is much more quickly accessible.

JumboWheat01

2017-01-19, 07:13 PM

Ctrl+F for "class" on the first page of this subforum hits the Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485983-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIV-We-are-the-Geek-Pantheon) thread. Which is just as unofficial as anything else, but is much more quickly accessible.

And adding such a tasty thread to my bookmarks and subscriptions makes it even faster.

Xyril

2017-01-19, 07:26 PM

I don't have any direct contradictions for that, but let's be clear on the weight here: the only difference between quoting that stuff from the OotS wiki and quoting it from some random not-mod's forum post is that you'd know the person's screen name if it was a forum post.

Sounds like it's time to update the wiki with direct citations to strips or 'credible' forum posts to justify the information. That way, the author becomes irrelevant--everyone is able to view the sources and determine for themselves how credible the wiki is.

Xyril

2017-01-19, 07:27 PM

I don't know about that. How else is the Coast Guard supposed to have debate night?

Wrenchlessly, I hope.

Keltest

2017-01-19, 08:35 PM

I think it's at least possible that any highly charismatic person who rules for a long time and then departs suddenly will leave their successor in a difficult situation, regardless of alignment.

I'm inclined to agree with this. From what Shojo said, the nobles were always like that, and he just played along to get things done. I rather suspect that Hinjo's failures in dealing with the nobles is more of a result of his being unwilling to stoop to their level and make it clear that he is in charge, rather than because Shojo set up a situation that nobody else could manage.

SkinTaker

2017-01-19, 11:51 PM

Like, I get it - I'm not going to say that fear was at 0% when she swung the wrench. But really, seriously, she did not give into her anger out of fear and panic. If anything, anger overrode the fear and panic for that one moment.

I thought we all knew that fear leads to anger, which leads to hate and finally suffering. Or this the wrong crowd for that?

Chei

2017-01-20, 01:05 AM

I thought we all knew that fear leads to anger, which leads to hate and finally suffering. Or this the wrong crowd for that?

I knew that, just, you know, not in that order. I can never remember the order. They need a catchy mnemonic for it.

Still, I think it's pretty important, with characters like Andi in this situation, to remember what actually drives them and brings out their true colors.

Elberik

2017-01-20, 01:32 AM

And that is why you never get on boats.

zimmerwald1915

2017-01-20, 01:58 AM

From what Shojo said
And Shojo would never massage the truth in a self-serving way, right?

factotum

2017-01-20, 03:36 AM

And Shojo would never massage the truth in a self-serving way, right?

Well, no, he wouldn't. Every time he lied, he did it in the belief it would help his city and his people--there is zero evidence that he ever did so for purely self-serving reasons. Also, how would lying about that particular thing actually help him? He was explaining to Roy and Haley why he was doing the senile act, I don't see how massaging the truth at that point would be useful.

darkgolem1

2017-01-20, 08:06 AM

dancrilis

2017-01-20, 08:16 AM

This fight on the ship has sort of hurt my ability to suspend reality (or fantasy reality) for this comic. This is because the likelihood of a:

1. Group of people trying to save the world being attacked by
2. Enemies who can attack an airship while with
3. A crew of people who go into full on mutiny at this particular stressful situation

is remote.

This crew of people have known each other for a long time. I agree that a crew of people having a mutiny when they haven't known each other for a while is one thing, but regardless of whether you are or are not in a leadership position of fellow crew members, if you've known them for a while, you already know who is the sort of person to behave that way or not, and treat them accordingly.

This just seems like too much bad luck for anyone. Even to build conflict in a story. Every time I read it I'm sort of like : Really? Can anything not horrible happen to them?

They have been working together for a while but they are likely working under a very different leadership structure.

For example: Julio is off the ship, Andi keeps the crew in check when they are about to break his rules. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html)*

If Bandana operated like Julio it is possible that she would be out fighting Frost Giants and that Andi might be directing the operations of the crew (as trusted to do by the captain).

Essentially the issue that Bandana and Andi might be having may be merely that Bandana has not held sufficent management meetings to explain any changes in ships operations in advance of situations such as this one ... hmph didn't expect to find myself arguing for more management meetings today.

*It could be argued that Bandana actually disobeyed Julio's standing order when she attempted to prevent Tarquin reboarding the ship to continue his duel with Elan - but crew judgement is likely allowed).

snowblizz

2017-01-20, 08:28 AM

This fight on the ship has sort of hurt my ability to suspend reality (or fantasy reality) for this comic. This is because the likelihood of a:

1. Group of people trying to save the world being attacked by
2. Enemies who can attack an airship while with
3. A crew of people who go into full on mutiny at this particular stressful situation

is remote.

This crew of people have known each other for a long time. I agree that a crew of people having a mutiny when they haven't known each other for a while is one thing, but regardless of whether you are or are not in a leadership position of fellow crew members, if you've known them for a while, you already know who is the sort of person to behave that way or not, and treat them accordingly.

This just seems like too much bad luck for anyone. Even to build conflict in a story. Every time I read it I'm sort of like : Really? Can anything not horrible happen to them?
I'd keep in mind we see a different story to those actually in it. (Ie we know facts and circumstances the pirate crew aren't aware of)
1) Group of heroe's of the week your boss who decided to go on vacation straddled you with fighting cliched scenery-chewing villain. Again. (we know this is different, or do we? happy ending guaranteed after all, somehow... maybe they are right and it will be corrected somehow in someone else's story)
2) Actual enemies (monster of the week) who it seems only really care about the 1) anyway, so pooh this we don't need this aggravation
3) There's no full mutiny. There's a childish brat who just wrenched the person she was told was in charge because she is a jealous former lover..

And anything remote in world runnning on drama is as Elan would have said, guaranteed.

As I disagree with the whole mutiny thing I can't respond to that but the other basic problem here is, if there was no struggle the whole thing would have been wrapped up in comic #2, titled "nothing ever happened so we didn't need 15 years to tell the story". Many long sections are in part artificial struggles where we get to see what makes the heroes tick and how they grow.
The people the universe picks on are the ones we hear about.

yellowrocket

2017-01-20, 08:41 AM

And that is why you never get on boats.

https://youtu.be/avaSdC0QOUM

But it sounds and looks so fun.

Quibblicious

2017-01-20, 09:17 AM

Of course, Elan probably doesn't have the INT modifier to get all the useful skills he needs, like Concentration...

Maybe there's some sort of camp or retreat he could go to to learn the skill...

Q

Quibblicious

2017-01-20, 09:24 AM

I thought we all knew that fear leads to anger, which leads to hate and finally suffering. Or this the wrong crowd for that?

Considering you just ninja'd me, no, this is not the wrong crowd.

Q

Shining Wrath

2017-01-20, 09:26 AM

Maybe there's some sort of camp or retreat he could go to to learn the skill...

Q

He tried to go to Camp Concentration, but he was bard from doing so due to low Int.

JumboWheat01

2017-01-20, 09:30 AM

He tried to go to Camp Concentration, but he was bard from doing so due to low Int.

We need to make saving throws for a pun like that.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-01-20, 10:07 AM

Putting aside all other logic...if the fighter you're fighting takes an axe bigger than he is to the chest and only briefly grunts in pain before continuing on his argument, you should probably seriously consider the possibility that his friends are strong enough to have beaten up your comrades.

This is gonna get worse before it gets better, isn't it?
Doesn't it always?

Side note: "Andana" would be a good ship name for them. snowblizz take note.

Also, "What the hell, Andi?" is not how you address your captain who just staged a popular mutiny.
I'm still not sure where people got the idea that this was a popular mutiny. From the fact that the crew were complaining briefly until their complaints were addressed, except for Andi who continued to complain?

Man that mechanic girl is so whiny and annoying as ****. How did she even get to survive/stick in a pirate ship's adventures so long is beyond me, ready to turn tails at the mere sign of trouble.
On one hand, frost giants destroying the ship is a bit more than a mere sign of trouble. On the other hand, she is the one who complained about accepting the Order's offer to pay them for being a ferry on the grounds that "We're pirates, dammit!"

I don't rate mechanics getting fleeced by gnomes or knocking their acting captain out in a crisis due to petty tiffs an excellent mechanic.
It's not a mechanic's job to bargain, concerns over if they'll survive aren't a "petty tiff," and succession crises in the face of frost giant ambushes have no relevance to how well Andi can hit things with a wrench. She'd be a terrible captain, but as a mechanic, she's good.
If only she knew that...

Objectively, we can say Bandana's leadership has not been good because it led to her getting hit in the head with a wrench.
I mean, I don't know if she could've done it any better or if any changes would've improved the situation. But the ideal outcome of her leadership would probably include not getting wrenched in the head.
Objectively, we can say that Romulus Augustulus's leadership was not good because it lead to the fall of the Western Roman Empire. I mean, I don't know if he could have done it any better or if any changes would've improved the situation. But the ideal outcome of his leadership would probably include not having your entire empire effectively collapse.
Objectively, we can say that Montezuma's leadership was not good because it lead to his empire being devastated by the Spanish. I mean, I don't know if he could have done it any better or if any changes would've improved the situation. But the ideal outcome of his leadership would probably include not being invaded by a technologically superior nation.
Objectively, we can say that Abraham Lincoln's leadership was not good because it lead to the Civil War. I mean, I don't know if he could have done it any better or if any changes would've improved the situation. But the ideal outcome of his leadership would probably include not having the nation torn asunder, disrupting the economy of half the country.
"Bandana did poorly. There probably wasn't anything she could do about it, but she still did poorly." Not a logical argument.

Her duties are to repair the vessel and ensuring to the best of her ability that it may follow the maneuvers ordered by the officer of the bridge.
Which she may have deemed only to be possible if the officer on the bridge was removed from command.
...What? When did Bandana order anything counter to Bandana's current orders?

-snip-
I think the biggest problem is the "uncharted waters" off the path. And really, "uncharted waters" isn't the half of it. You don't just have unknown (air) currents, you've got tons of mountains and monster lairs and all sorts of nasty stuff. And, of course, the ship is already taking...um...whatever the equivalent of "taking water" is for an airship. If you stay on the pass past the ambush and Andi can't fix the ship (perhaps due to arguing with and/or supplanting the captain), you want to be somewhere that other people have a chance of flying by.

As for "fly through the barrage of SAM fire," I think you're overestimating the range and effectiveness of the rocks, and the amount of time needed to get out of the ambush.

I actually don't think her people skills suck outright. Her interactions with Roy and Belkar show a more-or-less reasonable personality. It's only when Bandana's in the room that she acts like a brat.
I'm not convinced that a captain candidate who only acts like a brat around some people is a lot better than someone who does so around most people.

Thanks to Andi, the Mechane is now losing magic air and altitude in an uncharted-airspace situation, the person trying to fix the 'losing air and altitude' bit has been thwarted, the person whose whole job is to fix things, is continuing to have her oh-so-commanding temper tantrum, and there are still two giants tearing up the ship itself.
Hey, that's completely unfair! Andi isn't having a temper tantrum anymore; she's moved on to a panic attack.

Chaotic doesn't mean "lawless" or "every man for himself". It means focussing on small-scale tangibles like "the safety and prosperity of myself and the people I care about" rather than big, abstract things like "king and country" or "the rights of Man". At least, that's how I tend to play it.
So yes, a LAW to reimburse people for injuries is something a Chaotic might want. To protect himself. A Lawful person might want it as well, to protect the welfare of people in general.

Lawful evil or Lawful neutral sounds right to me. They lived by rules, but THEIR rules, not society's.
The annoying thing about these sorts of alignment discussions is that, 99% of the time, both interpretations are valid.

Observation...
Observant.
Though when you think about it, it's basically saying that orderly systems created by chaotic people don't work very well.

I think it's at least possible that any highly charismatic person who rules for a long time and then departs suddenly will leave their successor in a difficult situation, regardless of alignment.
Lawful people tend to be better at arranging succession than chaotic ones. It's like how mathematicians tend to be better at accounting than mathophobes—math is as integral to accounting as order is to succession.

If they're all stand-ins for the early days OotS, does that mean Andi=Belkar just knocked out Bandana=Roy?
Blue headscarf=Durkon, rushing to heal/aid?
(Somewhat) emotionally indifferent helmsman=Vaarsuvius?
And Elan & Haley freaking out on the sidelines?
..I'm probably taking the comparison too far...:smallsmile:
I like the comparison anyways.
(And I'm pretty sure the dreadlocked one would be their Elan. Elan tends to react poorly to Belkar's crap...and Dreadlocks was the one to give the giants fashion advice.)

People suggested other party additions before - Thog, Miko, Hinjo, Celia, Veldrina, Ganji, golem Crystal...
For some reason, I want to see all of those people in a party together. With Bandana, of course.
I wonder how Hinjo would stop Miko from killing Thog and Crystal...

Oh Roy, when will you learn not to be arrogant? Fate always gives in to temptation.
It's not arrogance if it's accurate. The Order is a bunch of high-level PCs, the frost giants are a bunch of high-level mooks. The result is unsurprising.
Roy's problem is that he's missing information, like the higher-level frost giants on the other side of the mountain holding up V and Haley and the surprise mutiny.

Eh, I'm thinking that panel is meant to be glossed over for the sake of a joke.
Even if we don't, there's a chance Andi did. "This annoying halfling is just pulling my leg."

There is nothing magical about the Helium (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1049.html), other than the method by which is obtained.
Doesn't stop people from calling it "magic air".
Once Elan calls something something, it's fair game as a forum nickname.

Ctrl+F for "class" on the first page of this subforum hits the Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485983-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIV-We-are-the-Geek-Pantheon) thread. Which is just as unofficial as anything else, but is much more quickly accessible.
It's technically unofficial, but well-documented and well-researched. If we make the assumption that everything in the comics is based on a consistent, accurate application of D&D 3.5 rules, the conclusions made by that thread are accurate. (The assumption is false, but OotS is consistent enough and D&D-ey enough that it's still an accurate enough approximation.)

Not that this should matter, because in what universe is it acceptable to assault a superior because they spoke to you sharply for shirking your duties?

She is the CHIEF ENGINEER. Her duty is A. B is the job of a bridge officer. She is NOT this.

So, dancrilis, your argument is essentially that anyone, at any time, can disobey any order they like; even up to assaulting superiors, simply because they think they have a better idea.

NO..

You do realize that the crew (sans Andi, who's presence was required on ship) got to go ashore as well, right? Youre suggesting that Bandana should have taken advantage of shore leave... to seclude herself and do more work?...

"Liasing with paying customers" (the Order) is very distinctly one of Bandana's duties as Captain. She wasn't goofing off, she was doing part of her job. And second-guessing Bandana's use of her own time does nothing to justify Andi's dereliction of duty, interference with another in the performance of their duty, and assault upon a superior.

Captain Scoundral was pretty upfront about that. He quite literally read his letter putting Bandana in charge towards that very end from the deck of the ship...

Really? 'cause I seem to remember (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html) Andi lashing out over Bandana's short-term view of Andi, not Bandana's long-term view of the Mechane.

If Andi believes the Mechane can't take a single additional hit, she should have said so.

The argument here seems to be along the lines of "Sure, she fixed a bunch of dramatic damages without adequate parts in a necessary rush, but the fix wasn't up to the standard of a fix with adequate parts where there wasn't a rush." That's not a particularly convincing argument.

No need to insult millennials. They are in large part living in a world they didn't make.

Also, you've got to expect people to yell in a battle or onboard a ship in combat. Machinery is loud. Guns are loud. Frost Giants smashing the ship are loud. Rocks hitting the ship are loud. It's not a time for your inside voice or for subtle conversation. It's a time to say what you mean as loudly, clearly, as forthrightly as possible.

How else is the Coast Guard supposed to have debate night?

We need to make saving throws for a pun like that.

dancrilis

2017-01-20, 10:20 AM

...What? When did Bandana order anything counter to Bandana's current orders?
Not sure what you mean here.

So, dancrilis, your argument is essentially that anyone, at any time, can disobey any order they like; even up to assaulting superiors, simply because they think they have a better idea.

NO..

That is not truth as that was not my argument.

pendell

2017-01-20, 10:26 AM

dancrilis

2017-01-20, 10:38 AM

What say you? Is there a better way to handle it?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Ideally before they left port.
Bandana: <Details expectations for her time as Captain>
Andi: <Offers critiques, and what she expects from the Captain>
Bandana: <Counters and/or adopts critiques>
Andi: <If she still has issues that would prevent her serving well she should leave>
Bandana: <If she feels she cannot trust Andi based on her reaction she should ask her to leave - and demand it in the event that it is not complied with>

Bandana has been on board from childhood, and Andi for fifteen years (likely the same amount of time) it is possible that Andi used to babysit Bandana when her parents went on romantic shore leave - either of them should have been able to figure out if they could work together in the new structure fairly easily.
But neither sought the conversation.

But not sure if you mean in a more immediate sense to this specific giant attack (you also assume that Bandana could beat Andi in a fight - something I am dubious about given the additional 15~ years experience and associated levels that Andi might have gained).

pendell

2017-01-20, 10:46 AM

Ideally before they left port.
Bandana: <Details expectations for her time as Captain>
Andi: <Offers critiques, and what she expects from the Captain>
Bandana: <Counters and/or adopts critiques>
Andi: <If she still has issues that would prevent her serving well she should leave>
Bandana: <If she feels she cannot trust Andi based on her reaction she should ask her to leave - and demand it in the event that it is not complied with>

Bandana has been on board from childhood, and Andi for fifteen years (likely the same amount of time) it is possible that Andi used to babysit Bandana when her parents went on romantic shore leave - either of them should have been able to figure out if they could work together in the new structure fairly easily.
But neither sought the conversation.

But not sure if you mean in a more immediate sense to this specific giant attack (you also assume that Bandana could beat Andi in a fight - something I am dubious about given the additional 15~ years experience and associated levels that Andi might have gained).

I'd meant in the context of the giant fight, but this works too. The point is to learn about handling these situations, and I'm learning something, so it's good.

I don't have many doubts that Bandana could handle Andi. My read is that Andi has Expert NPC levels, while Bandanna has PC class levels, which she just leveled up at their last port of call. Besides, if "I challenge you for leadership of the bandits" is a thing among pirates as well, Julio wouldn't have left the ship in the hands of someone who couldn't hold their own against the rest of the crew.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

dancrilis

2017-01-20, 10:51 AM

I'd meant in the context of the giant fight, but this works too. The point is to learn about handling these situations, and I'm learning something, so it's good.

Actually apologies, read your earlier post and than seemed to miss/gloss over the first line:

Question for the military types here.
I wouldn't properly consider myself as fitting into that category so treat the earlier answer with a due grain of salt (wouldn't want to misrepresent myself).

Keltest

2017-01-20, 10:59 AM

Ideally before they left port.
Bandana: <Details expectations for her time as Captain>
Andi: <Offers critiques, and what she expects from the Captain>
Bandana: <Counters and/or adopts critiques>
Andi: <If she still has issues that would prevent her serving well she should leave>
Bandana: <If she feels she cannot trust Andi based on her reaction she should ask her to leave - and demand it in the event that it is not complied with>

Bandana has been on board from childhood, and Andi for fifteen years (likely the same amount of time) it is possible that Andi used to babysit Bandana when her parents went on romantic shore leave - either of them should have been able to figure out if they could work together in the new structure fairly easily.
But neither sought the conversation.

But not sure if you mean in a more immediate sense to this specific giant attack (you also assume that Bandana could beat Andi in a fight - something I am dubious about given the additional 15~ years experience and associated levels that Andi might have gained).

Unfortunately, removing Andi from the ship is not a feasible solution, as Bandana is only acting captain. She cant really make any major modifications to the crew without extenuating circumstances (like Andi's assault right here). Even throwing Andi in the brig and/or relieving her of her duties for the duration of her captaincy has the potential to be problematic, since Bandana and Andi will both be on the ship and working together when Scoundrel returns.

snowblizz

2017-01-20, 11:13 AM

Side note: "Andana" would be a good ship name for them. snowblizz take note.

It took me a while to figure out ship did not refer to an airship, I was confused...:smallamused:

I'm rooting for "Bandi". If nothing else just to be contrary :P

Chei

2017-01-20, 11:38 AM

Andi herself clearly considers Bandana x Wrench to be the OTP.

Jasdoif

2017-01-20, 11:43 AM

Andi herself clearly considers Bandana x Wrench to be the OTP.But Andi's still holding onto the wrench....

Chei

2017-01-20, 11:59 AM

But Andi's still holding onto the wrench....

Any good parent has trouble letting go.

KorvinStarmast

2017-01-20, 11:59 AM

From the context (i.e., the part you quoted), it's clear that Korvin was referencing the attitude among Andi and her defenders that overemphasizes being considerate towards Andi's feelings and opinions, to the point where they are being given priority over everything else, including the well-being of everybody.

Now, if you're arguing that it was an unfair shot to take at millennials because not all of them are narcissistic and self-absorbed, I would agree. You grokked my meaning; also that criticism of my comment is fair.

nocoolnamejim

2017-01-20, 12:09 PM

Okay. Question for the military types here. How should Bandanna have handled the situation with Andi?

My first thought is that -- although I normally I don't have time for these games -- is that now if ever is the time to pull rank.

"Engineer, thank you for your report. Return to your post and do your best to keep this thing flying."

If that doesn't get the hint through, the next sally will be a bit more blunt: "Engineer, this is not your duty station. Return to your post. "

If the message still doesn't get through. Step 3: "Engineer, this is a DIRECT ORDER from your CAPTAIN. RETURN TO YOUR POST". And touch my cutlass for emphasis.

If that doesn't work I'm going to knock her flat with subdual damage, have her carried to the brig, put her second in her place, and fight the ship.

The most important thing is not to turn my back on her until she's off the bridge.

And, really, if there's a crewer on board you can't turn your back on, they need off the ship as soon as possible.

What say you? Is there a better way to handle it?

ETA: It occurs to me that this is why officers aren't allowed to be friends with ratings. Because you really need to be establishing that respect for the office long before the critical point in the heat of battle. You want the crew to think of the officers as authority figures to be obeyed, not friends you can argue or shoot the breeze with.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

In a combat situation I doubt I give the subordinate three strikes before enforcing discipline. In a non-combat situation, sure, you can be a bit more patient particularly with a longterm (15 years) crew member.

But in combat you don't have that kind of time to stand there and argue the point.

Edit: Disclosure - I'm not in the least a military type.

Ralanr

2017-01-20, 12:14 PM

I hereby nominate the Mechane with the Navigator's Got Nerves of Adamantine award.

It's probably shock.

Snails

2017-01-20, 12:34 PM

Okay. Question for the military types here. How should Bandanna have handled the situation with Andi?

My first thought is that -- although I normally I don't have time for these games -- is that now if ever is the time to pull rank.

"Engineer, thank you for your report. Return to your post and do your best to keep this thing flying."

If that doesn't get the hint through, the next sally will be a bit more blunt: "Engineer, this is not your duty station. Return to your post. "

If the message still doesn't get through. Step 3: "Engineer, this is a DIRECT ORDER from your CAPTAIN. RETURN TO YOUR POST". And touch my cutlass for emphasis.

If that doesn't work I'm going to knock her flat with subdual damage, have her carried to the brig, put her second in her place, and fight the ship.

The most important thing is not to turn my back on her until she's off the bridge.

And, really, if there's a crewer on board you can't turn your back on, they need off the ship as soon as possible.

What say you? Is there a better way to handle it?

ETA: It occurs to me that this is why officers aren't allowed to be friends with ratings. Because you really need to be establishing that respect for the office long before the critical point in the heat of battle. You want the crew to think of the officers as authority figures to be obeyed, not friends you can argue or shoot the breeze with.

I basically agree with you. Bandanna made a very understandable error in getting baited by Andi, and allowing a personal insult to color her response. She should have framed the situation as not personal at all, but they each have an extremely urgent specific role to serve the ship right now. Andi's role is to find out exactly the status of the ship and offer plans to mitigate, not guess that the propellers were "probably" bent and similar.

The captain has a singular burden, that requires some emotional distance from all the crew and officers especially in a situation where the professionalism of the underlings is less certain. The reason Captian FitzRoy tapped Charles Darwin for the most famous voyage of the HMS Beagle was that he needed a personal companion with whom to dine without the crushing usual formality of a table with his officers, FitzRoy having concern that emotional troubles ran in his family.

darkgolem1

2017-01-20, 12:39 PM

As I disagree with the whole mutiny thing I can't respond to that but the other basic problem here is, if there was no struggle the whole thing would have been wrapped up in comic #2, titled "nothing ever happened so we didn't need 15 years to tell the story". Many long sections are in part artificial struggles where we get to see what makes the heroes tick and how they grow.
The people the universe picks on are the ones we hear about.

That is a very good point.

In writing there has to be down times for people to catch their breath, absorb information, and avoid feeling rushed to the end, (paraphrasing a book Becoming Your Own Critique Partner), but none of that seems to be an issue for me in this case.

It's hard to nail down what I have issue with in terms of writing technique. I'll say that I'm definitely irritated by this subplot, and it seems be a feeling of "What, another problem? Does anyone do anything correctly in this world".

darkgolem1

2017-01-20, 12:55 PM

Okay. Question for the military types here. How should Bandanna have handled the situation with Andi?

This is from observation as a grunt, not an officer.

Normally, if someone questions you, your non-comms (I.e. sergeants) address it. Officer don't directly chastise those below them, especially non-comms, except VERY rarely, because it erodes their authority.

If they don't have a non-comm handy, also VERY rare, I guess they'd distract the person. One way to work with malcontents is give them something to be in charge of. Oftentimes the malcontent will get very interested in being in charge of whatever is given to them. It just has to a task that involves supervision of others, and doesn't look like condescension or busy work.

On a pirate ship, I imagine it's different. I would think a captain would either have enough members of the crew liking him or her through previous effective leadership that malcontents are unwilling to risk mutiny, or have scary enforcers. More likely the latter. Any ship needs tight discipline, but leaders on a pirate ship would need to have some amount of intuitive understand of motivating people. The normal military methods of leading groups of people aren't usable when everyone is to some extent or another a criminal.

I think Bandanna should have had someone who is trustworthy and able watching her back. If I was a pirate captain (argh), I'd make that a priority. Then she could deal with Andy with confidence.

Also, it's always better to show respect for the person in question, even if you don't feel any real respect. Sometimes that is super hard, but always worth it. Insulting those below you, even if completely justified, is a bad idea because it feeds resentment.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-01-20, 01:20 PM

Her duties are to repair the vessel and ensuring to the best of her ability that it may follow the maneuvers ordered by the officer of the bridge.
Which she may have deemed only to be possible if the officer on the bridge was removed from command.
...What? When did Bandana order anything counter to Bandana's current orders?Not sure what you mean here.
I would have complained about you leaving out context, but holy carp nested quotes are a pain.
As the above nested quote-stack indicates, this discussion started when Marlowe said Andi's duties are to repair the Mechane and to make sure it can follow the maneuvers ordered by Bandana. dancrilis suggested there might be a situation where the only way to do so would be to incapacitate Bandana. I questioned when Bandana ordered any maneuvers which were counter to her prior orders, because there's sure as heck no way that bonking Bandana would help to fix the Mechane. dancrilis, evidently unaware of one or more of the assumptions I had made, was not sure what I meant. I explained it in what is likely a needlessly loquacious manner.

That is not truth as that was not my argument.
You said that Andi has the right and duty to judge if her orders given by Bandana were counterproductive to the goals of the ship and crew as she perceives them, and to ignore such orders—to the point of attacking and usurping her commanding officer. How is that not essentially what Marlowe said?
I also notice a lack of such clear disagreement from when he originally said the statement.

I don't have many doubts that Bandana could handle Andi. My read is that Andi has Expert NPC levels, while Bandanna has PC class levels, which she just leveled up at their last port of call. Besides, if "I challenge you for leadership of the bandits" is a thing among pirates as well, Julio wouldn't have left the ship in the hands of someone who couldn't hold their own against the rest of the crew.
I doubt he'd appoint someone who easily resorted to beating up the rest of the crew, either.

It took me a while to figure out ship did not refer to an airship, I was confused...:smallamused:
Oops. I sometimes forget that most other people aren't as fluent in Troperese as I.

Bandanna made a very understandable error in getting baited by Andi, and allowing a personal insult to color her response.
If only we could have inanimate objects or computers or something control these airships. They're not nearly as...you know...human.

dancrilis

2017-01-20, 01:47 PM

I would have complained about you leaving out context, but holy carp nested quotes are a pain.
Yes they are.

You for example left out.

Not really 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure' includes not preventing mechanical failures from occuring, and Giants throwing rocks could have resulted in a mechanical failure - under that she would have been doing it duty in a proactive manner.
Which went before your first nested quote, that was a response to another quote by Marlowe which was a responce to a comment of mine which was a responce to a quote of their's etc for more steps.
I am not going to create an X deep nested quote for this you can if you like but suffice to say:

As the above nested quote-stack indicates, this discussion started when Marlowe said Andi's duties are to repair the Mechane
This is not true - as your nested quote was not the start of the discussion.

To paraphrase the initial discussion:
Marlowe: Andi has a duty to fix the ship.
dancrilis: Andi may regard her primary duty is to prevent the ship crashing, and that Bandana's leadership was going to result in a crash scenario.

I also notice a lack of such clear disagreement from when he originally said the statement.
Than perhaps you have failed a spot, search, gather information or sense motive check.

So, dancrilis, your argument is essentially that anyone, at any time, can disobey any order they like; even up to assaulting superiors, simply because they think they have a better idea.

NO.
That is for the rest of the crew to decide - and you are mischaracterising the scenario not 'simply a better idea' but a firm belief that the lives of them and all other people required it.

Essentially I had a scenario where Andi may have believed that imminent death was about to occur and felt that action needed to be taken to avoid it (we will likely never know if this was true).
That was characterised as 'anyone, at any time, can disobey any order they like' which is a mischaracterisation of my position.

TheNecrocomicon

2017-01-20, 01:50 PM

It's hard to nail down what I have issue with in terms of writing technique. I'll say that I'm definitely irritated by this subplot, and it seems be a feeling of "What, another problem? Does anyone do anything correctly in this world".

I have to agree that the relentless cavalcade of recent misfortune has long since transitioned from reasonable to downright absurd.

The only things that have conclusively gone well for the protagonists so far in this entire book is that fewer of the vampire spawn survived to accompany Lurkon than he expected, that Malack's necromantic staff got destroyed, and that Roy has been learning a bit more about how to unlock his greatsword's true potential. Oh, and Crystal getting her final demise, in a storyline tangent. That's it. Literally everything else has been a stalemate, a fiasco, or nullified/subverted to serve the villains' goals.

I get that this is supposedly "early" in the book (almost three years since it began), and of course things aren't going to go well, because it builds for later confrontations between the heroes and the villains. But on the current trajectory, we're rapidly approaching the need for a deus-ex-machina to extricate the protagonists from an ambush by second-string allies of a secondary villain who isn't even the main Big Bad of the whole webcomic (i.e. Xykon).

I can only guess some very intentional method is in the works that will allow the Order to move on and confront Lurkon & Co. in time to save the world, but would it kill anyone to have something end up with a positive outcome for once?

Keltest

2017-01-20, 01:53 PM

Essentially I had a scenario where Andi may have believed that imminent death was about to occur and felt that action needed to be taken to avoid it (we will likely never know if this was true).
That was characterised as 'anyone, at any time, can disobey any order they like' which is a mischaracterisation of my position.

its not a mischaracterization, just the logical extension. Especially on a pirate ship, where the risk of injury or death is a basic fact of life. If Andi wasn't comfortable with that, she shouldn't have signed on to the crew of a pirate ship.

To put it another way, It is never a safe assumption that you know better than the captain. Ever. It is their job to know things, not yours.

Kish

2017-01-20, 02:11 PM

The only things that have conclusively gone well for the protagonists so far in this entire book is that fewer of the vampire spawn survived to accompany Lurkon than he expected, that Malack's necromantic staff got destroyed, and that Roy has been learning a bit more about how to unlock his greatsword's true potential. Oh, and Crystal getting her final demise, in a storyline tangent. That's it. Literally everything else has been a stalemate, a fiasco, or nullified/subverted to serve the villains' goals.
As Elan said, they mostly run away or have mixed victories. Still as true now as it was then. If you want Salvatore-style "the mighty badasses tear through their enemies like mighty badasses," that's not a wrong thing to want in a story, but it's a strange thing to look for here, this far into this story. When has the Order ever won a big battle without a turnaround? It's always "going bad for the Order->going bad for the Order->going bad for the Order->going bad for the Order->going bad for the Order->going bad for the Order->going bad for the Order->going bad for the Order->turnaround." Even the battle in Cliffport started off with Leeky smashing down Vaarsuvius while Durkon and Haley fled from him, and Yokyok chasing a defenseless Belkar, and that one was planned by Nale for the Order to win easily.

Beyond that, your objections prominently feature downplaying Greg and complaining about the rate at which comics go up on the website; neither is a perspective that will result in anything but frustration. Greg is the main villain of the book we're in, and the only relevant time-scale is "one strip since #1062, three strips since #1060, ten strips since #1053, etc." without reference to the amount of real-time between any of those strips. Again a puzzling thing to expect this late; Xykon only showed up long enough to teleport away in the previous book (and that one had a Gate in it).

dancrilis

2017-01-20, 02:15 PM

its not a mischaracterization, just the logical extension. Especially on a pirate ship, where the risk of injury or death is a basic fact of life. If Andi wasn't comfortable with that, she shouldn't have signed on to the crew of a pirate ship/

People often use 'logical extension' for when an statement is exaggerated for effect - the effect in question is often to make it easier to attack as logically unfeasible, that is mischaracterization.

You saying you 'don't like dwarves and think they offer nothing of value to society' does not mean that you 'don't like all dwarves' but it could be a logical extension, however saying that it is a logical extension to say you 'want all dwarves to die' could be formulated as a arguement but would likely be a mischaracterization.

On risk of injury and death I disagree - for example Andi and company here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) discuss finding a nice fat merchant blimp and presumedly as pirates they are engaged in ambushing slow moving ships at lower altitudes such as the one mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1044.html).

When you are the ambusher against soft targets risk of death is likely lower than when you are ambushed by Giants - this is in fact the first time we have seen any member of the crew die (they did not when assaulting Azure city, or when Tarquin attacked).

When has the Order ever won a big battle without a turnaround?
This battle preceeding this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html) (subject to you regarding it as a big battle).

Keltest

2017-01-20, 02:25 PM

People often use 'logical extension' for when an statement is exaggerated for effect - the effect in question is often to make it easier to attack as logically unfeasible, that is mischaracterization.

You saying you 'don't like dwarves and think they offer nothing of value to society' does not mean that you 'don't like all dwarves' but it could be a logical extension, however saying that it is a logical extension to say you 'want all dwarves to die' could be formulated as a arguement but would likely be a mischaracterization.

On risk of injury and death I disagree - for example Andi and company here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) discuss finding a nice fat merchant blimp and presumedly as pirates they are engaged in ambushing slow moving ships at lower altitudes such as the one mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1044.html).

When you are the ambusher against soft targets risk of death is likely lower than when you are ambushed by Giants - this is in fact the first time we have seen any member of the crew die (they did not when assaulting Azure city, or when Tarquin attacked).

Let me give you an example as to why your train of thought is dangerous and wrong for anybody on a ship, pirate or otherwise. Imagine, for a moment, that there is a ship navigating through an area known to have reefs. Its risky, but the captain knows how to navigate it safely and the crew has the skill to pull it off, having done so before. However, a new crew member does not know this, and only sees the captain sailing directly towards the reefs. In response, they KO the captain and tell the crew to turn... at which point they strike a reef and sink, because the crew member has no idea what theyre doing or how to navigate that area safely, and they just KOed the person who did.

It is the captain's job to know whats going on and to make the decisions. If you don't trust them to do that, the appropriate response is to leave the ship before a crisis happens, not attack them mid crisis and make things worse.

nocoolnamejim

2017-01-20, 02:25 PM

One thing that I'd argue has gone well for the Order that wasn't mentioned is the fact that the world is still in existence.

Hel supposedly had the winning votes among the demigod tie-breaker locked up before this...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html

And now she's had to move onto her backup plan. I call that a win for the Team Stick.

HerbieRAI

2017-01-20, 02:34 PM

Since Bandana will most likely wake up from that hit, I wonder if she will kick Andi off the crew. It's not so much a "will Bandana want to" or "should Bandana do it", more of a "can she". Andi seems like the kind of engineer that would keep her knowledge of how the ship works to herself. So without Anid, Bandana won't be able to fly.

nocoolnamejim

2017-01-20, 02:35 PM

Keltest

2017-01-20, 02:38 PM

snowblizz

2017-01-20, 02:41 PM

That is a very good point.

In writing there has to be down times for people to catch their breath, absorb information, and avoid feeling rushed to the end, (paraphrasing a book Becoming Your Own Critique Partner), but none of that seems to be an issue for me in this case.

It's hard to nail down what I have issue with in terms of writing technique. I'll say that I'm definitely irritated by this subplot, and it seems be a feeling of "What, another problem? Does anyone do anything correctly in this world".
You might not simply like some of the characters or what's going on. I know parts of the comic has not appealed to me at the time I was reading it, though I'd be hard pressed now to point one of those out. The Giant has in his commentary pointed out how the episodic nature of the publishing doesn't always gel with the story pacing, e.g. Haley's loss of speech worked better in a book than stretched out in instalments online. The entire book of "Don't Split the Party" is a giant (no pun!) detour of misery and nothing can go right. The Giant points this out in the commentary and even even take a pot shot at it with the last minute problem of diamonds ably solved by Haley breaking the 4th wall (and that is still one of the most awesome things I hadn't realised before getting the books). The BritF was also a long downward spiral of "come on for the love of Thor how can it get any worse no...oh...OH NO!". Both seem less bad in the books when you can quickly read to the satifying conclusions.

Another common complaint is when ppl confused this for a story about how the lich Xykon was stopped from using the gates, and everything not forming a straight path the the lootboss and lvl up is "filler". I wasn't actually certain at first if this was where you were coming from. But Xykon, the Gates, and now the saving of the world is all just window dressing to the "character drama/comedy" of the OOTS. We only really care about Hel's plan because she's got Durkon and we want him back! After learning more about him as a character and seeing him grow preferrably.

I actually find this rather interesting since it showcases how the early OOTS would have looked if *they* were compared with a seasoned adventurer party. But I also look forward to the day we are allowed to measure the OOTS with the "gatebuilders" whose name I can't recall now.

But on the current trajectory, we're rapidly approaching the need for a deus-ex-machina to extricate the protagonists from an ambush by second-string allies of a secondary villain who isn't even the main Big Bad of the whole webcomic (i.e. Xykon).

Who says Xykon is the main Big Bad? Evil god compared to lazy sorceror? I'd bet on evil god. And wouldn't discount the Directors either. Don't make Tarquin's mistake and think you know what the story is and try and shoehorn everything into boxes that line up with that assumption. Not that'd I'd be disappointed if he were. If Hel being a second stringer is required to get Durkon back, so be it.

dancrilis

2017-01-20, 02:46 PM

If you don't trust them to do that, the appropriate response is to leave the ship before a crisis happens, not attack them mid crisis and make things worse.

Agreed see here.

I will say in Bandana's defence (despite me thinking that she is inept as a captain) Andi should have taken a vacation from the ship in Tindertown if she was unable to follow Bandana as a captain (and if the ship couldn't function without Andi and they were all grounded so be it) - she should have known that adventurer transport would be hazardous and that Bandana might not be willing to follow reason (or at least what Andi viewed as the most reasonable course of action, if Bandana saw things differently or got caught up in the moment) ... but ah well.

To your other point Bandana is not an experienced captain and Andi is an experienced crew member - it is entirely possible that Andi is second in command on the ship, this is supported - weakly - here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html) where she instructs the crew on how to behave. It is not unreasonable (but also not supported) to consider that she may not only have seen more of these scenarios than Bandana but is used to being in control when they go down (as Julio does heroic stuff and looks awesome).

We will see how it plays out but I think the Giant has a lot of room to:
1. Have Bandana be in the right.
2. Have Andi be in the right.
3. Have both Andi and Bandana to be at fault (with a wide variance on how has more fault or if it is equal).

Since Bandana will most likely wake up from that hit, I wonder if she will kick Andi off the crew. It's not so much a "will Bandana want to" or "should Bandana do it", more of a "can she". Andi seems like the kind of engineer that would keep her knowledge of how the ship works to herself. So without Anid, Bandana won't be able to fly.

I don't think that Andi would be irreplaceable (a loss yes and a dangerous loss at that), but others have assisted with repairs and so likely have at least some ranks in the craft/profession needed.

nocoolnamejim

2017-01-20, 02:54 PM

Who says Xykon is the main Big Bad? Evil god compared to lazy sorceror? I'd bet on evil god. And wouldn't discount the Directors either. Don't make Tarquin's mistake and think you know what the story is and try and shoehorn everything into boxes that line up with that assumption. Not that'd I'd be disappointed if he were. If Hel being a second stringer is required to get Durkon back, so be it.

Wouldn't count out Redcloak ending up as the Big Bad.

Kish

2017-01-20, 03:01 PM

Clearly Andi is the main villain of the comic. Pfft, goblins and undead.

(Would post a close-up of Andi's face in panel seven of #1062, but Rich objects to us altering his images.)