Standalone classes

[lylsyly]

I've seen it stated that the Dragonfire Adept is pretty good as is, I've seen the same statement for the Duskblade class.

Are there any other classes (besides the obvious Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Sorcerer) that are considered to be pretty good/playable thru all 20 levels?

[ComaVision]

Basically every spellcaster.

[Bakkan]

I think the Tome of Battle classes qualify.

[Doctor Awkward]

I've seen it stated that the Dragonfire Adept is pretty good as is, I've seen the same statement for the Duskblade class.

Are there any other classes (besides the obvious Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Sorcerer) that are considered to be pretty good/playable thru all 20 levels?

Assuming this means which base classes are solid to take all the way to 20? Other than what you already mentioned...

Tome of Battle was noted, but I want to give special note to Warblade and Crusader. Swordsage is often better off as a dip or prestiged out of.


Factotum 20 is solid. Binder 20 is also solid.

Beguiler and Dread Necromancer can do just fine on their own.

Depending on the overall power level of the game, Bard 20 can do find as well, but it takes some serious op-fu with equipment selection and feat choices.
It probably falls into the same category as spellcasters, but all variants of Psion do just fine taken to 20.

[Thaneus]

Factotum is nice to have up to 20
The mentioned ToB classes
Erudite all the way
Bard with none Core Books

[Kelb_Panthera]

Incarnate and totemist do their thing best when you stick to them.

Soulborn; not so much, though they don't do much of anything well.

[khadgar567]

its odd but artificer wort 20 levels if you go little bit book keeping in munchkinery since every item in the game has some uses plus they can build custom items can break the game over their knee and let the dm weep in agony as you start to economically b*tch slap the entire kingdoms

[Grod_The_Giant]

Question: are you looking for classes with enough power that they don't need to boost themselves with multiclassing or PrCs, or for classes that specifically don't WANT to multiclass? Like, Sorcerer doesn't NEED a PrC, but he sure wants one; Druid neither needs nor, probably, wants.


Incarnate and totemist do their thing best when you stick to them.
Both are massively improved by a quick dip in the other.

[lylsyly]

Question: are you looking for classes with enough power that they don't need to boost themselves with multiclassing or PrCs, or for classes that specifically don't WANT to multiclass? Like, Sorcerer doesn't NEED a PrC, but he sure wants one; Druid neither needs nor, probably, wants.

I was typing while you were responding :smalltongue:

So we have votes for;

Dragonfire Adept, Duskblade, Warblade, Crusader, Factotum, Binder, Beguiler, Incarnate, and Totemist. I left Bard and Artificer out because of the optimization they require, Erudite because it is Psoinic, and left out Dread Necromancer because of its source.

The whole reason I am asking is that I am going to give the DM (whom fortunately never looks at the playground) a break for a bit so he can play and I want to twist things up a bit by not allowing classes/races from Core (3.5), and not allowing Multiclassing (on the fence about this, at least when it comes to PRCs).
We are not great optimizers (although we have almost every book), I probably try to do more than any of the others and I don’t bother squeezing every last drop out, just make a functional character.

One thing I am not seeing is a healer, of course Healer itself is not core …

I appreciate everyone’s input and would like to hear more of your thoughts on this.

[Thaneus]

You are missing Swordsage on your list of ToB classes.
Archivist is another non core solution.

Artificer does not need much optimization... its just hard to play when downtime is low.
Favored Soul, I nearly forgot this one..
Duskblade can also work on the 20 level marathon.

[noce]

Lurk is better almost pure than multiclassed. A couple level dips are ok, but pure Lurk is a sound choice.

Binder, too, is good as is.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm... Add to the suggestions Archivist, Shugenja, Scout, Warmage, and Favored Soul. The psionic types all work, though it sounds like you don't want them. I'd actually suggest avoiding the Factotum in a low-op group; I find them to be rather overrated on general, but the lack of native offense is killer if you're not breaking out Iajutsu Focus cheese or some such technique.

[Hunter Noventa]

Warlock can be a pretty fun class even without cheesing your way into Hellfire Warlock. It's closer to an archer than an arcanist, due to the emphasis on Eldritch Blast and limited utility, but some of the utility is amazing. Auto-disarm thanks to Shatter at low levels, Personal Flight and Invisibility at will. It's not as much of a team player sure, but it's still fairly amazing I say. And at higher levels can make magic items.

[Zaq]

Spellthief isn't a super strong class in general, but if you want to be a Spellthief, you want to pretty much go pure Spellthief. No other class advances your core features (including, but not limited to, Steal Spell Effect and Steal SLA)—the feat Master Spellthief makes other classes advance how big a spell you can steal, but only Spellthief advances how many spell levels you can hold, which is a pretty darn important thing. And since how much magic you can steal is extremely level-dependent, a Spellthief who dips around or who PrCs out won't actually be able to steal much magic from a CR-appropriate foe.

[Particle_Man]

Wu Jen does just fine up to 20th level (people compare it negatively to the wizard because the Wu Jen has fewer spells, but since you are not allowing wizards . . . ).

Spirit Shaman and Shukenja also do fine, for similar reasons. Generally, if you get 9th level spells you are going to be just fine sticking with the class until level 20. :smallsmile:

I mean War Mage isn't as good as sorcerer, but it isn't awful - it is just a type of archer with colourful missles. :smallsmile:

[lylsyly]

Okay so Archivist, Scout, Warmage, Favored Soul, Spellthief, and Warlock get added to the list. I skipped the Oriental flavored classes simply because I have never cared for the whole Oriental Flavor thing.

This gives the group 15 classes to choose from, and enough flexibility for the five players to build a decently competent party.

Dragonfire Adept, Duskblade, Warblade, Crusader, Factotum, Binder, Beguiler, Incarnate, and Totemist, Archivist, Scout, Warmage, Favored Soul, Spellthief, and Warlock.

I have come off the fence about the Multiclassing issue. I will allow them to have one PRC. If they get into it they must finish it or go back to their original class forever (probably won’t get any higher than level 12 or 15 anyway, although you never know).

I am also going to allow them one template (max LA +1 with buyoff in effect).

It’s going to be interesting to see what races they use since they cannot use the PHB or MM I races (again max LA +1 but this one is a freebie).

They already know that I am going to limit things, so no problems there (their glad I agreed not to do what I did the last time I Dmed, which was to toss them from a long running BECMI campaign right into a derelict starship in the Traveller universe :bigevilsneer: although all but one player had a blast).

Again I would like to thank everyone for their input.

[Zaq]

Also, I suppose I should mention the Truenamer. I won't get into how well a Truenamer can or can't contribute to an at-level encounter, but I will say that nothing* (not even the PrCs in ToM) advances utterances other than levels of Truenamer. It's still sometimes worth it to dip around outside of Truenamer (to shore up your baseline Truespeak mod or to get some different tricks), but if we're defining "standalone" as "nothing other than the class itself advances the class's main tricks," Truenamer should be on the list.

*Discounting Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster, but that's not unique to any one class.

[Troacctid]

Probably Paladin too. There are a few good prestige classes, but pretty much nothing that advances the special mount, which is by far your best class feature.

Erudite is in the odd position where you basically can't prestige even if you want to, because of how draconian the class's multiclass restriction is, on top of the inability of prestige classes to progress your unique powers per day.

I actually would include Healer, since, like Paladin, the companion is the class's most powerful ability by a mile, and the only way to gain access to the high-level companions is to go straight Healer.

[noce]

Dragon shaman, while on the low end of optimization, is better pure than multiclassed.
He is a hybrid class: melee, buffing, healing.

Given that your list lacks cleric, druid, bard, sorcerer and wizard, a buffer in the party could help.
The fact that it covers healing too is a bonus.

Furthermore, chances are the party will contain strange/wild races, and this class has good flavour for wild races.

[Troacctid]

Dragon shaman, while on the low end of optimization, is better pure than multiclassed.
Absolutely not. Dragon Shaman is frontloaded with very clear break points and badly wants to multiclass or prestige. You should never be single-classing a Dragon Shaman.

[lylsyly]

I actually would include Healer, since, like Paladin, the companion is the class's most powerful ability by a mile, and the only way to gain access to the high-level companions is to go straight Healer.

Thought about Healer, if a player asks, I will probably let them have anything not core (except psions)


Dragon shaman, while on the low end of optimization, is better pure than multiclassed.
He is a hybrid class: melee, buffing, healing.

Furthermore, chances are the party will contain strange/wild races, and this class has good flavour for wild races.

Good flavor for wild races yes, but as far as the class goes ... I agree with Troacctid, sorry.


Absolutely not. Dragon Shaman is frontloaded with very clear break points and badly wants to multiclass or prestige. You should never be single-classing a Dragon Shaman.

[Doctor Awkward]

Knight 20 is also functional. The class is almost always better served as a dip, but for single-classed builds it's hard to argue with a capstone that can be summarized as, "Not dying to HP damage if you do not wish to."

How viable any of these classes are really depends on the overall power of the party.

A Knight 20 is great in a party with a group of squishy melee types and maybe one primary spellcaster. But with a Crusader, a Binder, DFA, or a lot of spellcasters he isn't going to be doing a whole lot.

[Troacctid]

Knight 20 is also functional. The class is almost always better served as a dip, but for single-classed builds it's hard to argue with a capstone that can be summarized as, "Not dying to HP damage if you do not wish to."
Disagree again. The class is full of dead levels and break points. It very much wants to multiclass.

[Doctor Awkward]

Disagree again. The class is full of dead levels and break points. It very much wants to multiclass.

You can make the same argument about Crusader, where a 2 level dip "fixes" stance progression, and allows you to pick up things you would want as soon as they become available.

Most of the classes on the list so far are improved, or at the least equally viable, with dips. Or function just as well as dips as they do taken straight.

Obviously Knight has break points. So does Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Scout.

The point is it's hard to get the Knight's capstone when you dip with it.

[Troacctid]

You can make the same argument about Crusader, where a 2 level dip "fixes" stance progression, and allows you to pick up things you would want as soon as tehy become available.
Disagree. Crusader doesn't have any dead levels, and offers good abilities from 1–20. That's not true of Knight.

[Doctor Awkward]

Disagree. Crusader doesn't have any dead levels, and offers good abilities from 1–20. That's not true of Knight.

No, but Crusader does have messed up stance progression.

Thicket of Blades is THE tanking stance, and the biggest reason to play them.

A straight crusader 20 would not be able to pick up the stance until level 8.

On the other hand, a Fighter 6/Crusader 2 gets way more tanking related feats, and has an IL of 5 at level 8, so qualifies for it as his second stance at Crusader 2. Alternatively, since a Ruby Knight Vindicator gets a stance at first level, a Cleric 2/Crusader 3/RKV 1 gets an IL of 5 and can pick up the stance at level 6.

This follows with a bunch of stances one might want on a crusader. You only get four stances ever, and you get them at levels 1, 2, 9, and 14. But he meets the IL requirement for Thicket of Blades two levels too late, Crushing Weight of the Mountain three levels too late, Aura of Chaos two levels too late, and Immortal Fortitude one level too late.

The class was practically designed to be dipped, specifically with either 2, 4 or 6 non-initiator levels.

But it can still function just fine taken to 20.


Just like with Knight.

[lylsyly]

I have to agree once again with Troacctid: Knight just ain't that good to me.

In the mean time. I talked to one of the players, knowing that she plays a Bard every time. I will be allowing Prestige Bard for her (I ain't even gonna look at how she is going to get into it, that's her problem) :bigevilsneer:

[legomaster00156]

Truenamer.

[vasilidor]

warlock, favored soul (surprised it went unmentioned, i think),spirit shaman, duskblade, anything from ToB, psychic warrior, psion, UA spell caster, Lurk
all I can think of at the moment.

[Gruftzwerg]

my vote goes to warlock.

- unlimited SLA resource
- can use any magic item (take 10 on UMD) / spell-scroll
- shatter, charm, invisibility, raise dead and fly at will will help you out of most situations
- Mass Control Invocations: "Nightmares made real" should handle any kind of big mobs.
- "Wall of Perilous Flame": seems weak at first glance, but you can cast one each round and stack em between you and the mobs stuck in your "Nightmares made real"

Let's see what we've got so far.
Charm helps with social encounters and when dealing with commoner npc.
Shatter is handy in many situations. Break doors, weapons, spell components .. just be creative ;)
Invisibility and fly invocation will turn you into a good infiltrator and good escape abilities.
Raise Dead gives you a few meat shields. Further you'll even out the numbers the longer the fight lasts. Every enemy that drops will aid you (take the free of gold charge temporary option for this). You can mass control with "Nightmares made real" , hide in it, be invisible and annoy your enemies with your undead army or "Wall of Perilous Flame".

If you wanna be more versatile and cheat character wealth balance with crafting, go for Chameleon 2 for the floating feat. In downtime's you can craft (crafting feats) and Raise Dead (extra invocation feat), later when you head into adventures you exchange it for something else.

[RedWarlock]

Wait, you're disallowing Dread Necromancer because of its source, despite being a recommended class, but allowing Archivist? They're from the same book.

[Particle_Man]

Will you allow non-core subraces of core races? Some prestige classes might require "dwarf" or "elf" but if one were a non-core sub-race of elf could they still be allowed?

Also, some prestige classes are designed for multi-classing. I assume those are right out?

[lylsyly]

Dragonfire Adept, Duskblade, Warblade, Crusader, Factotum, Binder, Beguiler, Incarnate, and Totemist, Archivist, Scout, Warmage, Favored Soul, Spellthief, and Warlock.

I will allow them to have one PRC.




Wait, you're disallowing Dread Necromancer because of its source, despite being a recommended class, but allowing Archivist? They're from the same book.

I should have said flavor, because I never use undead. But if one of them asks for a non-core class that is not on the list I will consider it.


Will you allow non-core subraces of core races? Some prestige classes might require "dwarf" or "elf" but if one were a non-core sub-race of elf could they still be allowed?

Also, some prestige classes are designed for multi-classing. I assume those are right out?

Any race not core is okay (including Subraces), including the UA variants. PRCs? See the quote above.

As I said, they are used to me limiting things and are okay with it.

It only for a "couple" of weekends, so ...

Friday 7pm-11pm, Saturday Noon - ?? (usually 10 or 12 hours), and Sunday 9amish until 5 or 6 pm. We normally get 20 to 24 hours in each weekend.

I'll know Friday what they have come up with (3 have already finished their characters but wont say what, lol).

They know me, and know that they had better show up with a balanced party.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I should have said flavor, because I never use undead. But if one of them asks for a non-core class that is not on the list I will consider it.
Dread Necro is a pretty solid class even if you're not raising (or fighting!) undead. Their spell list has plenty of nasty damage and debuff type spells. (And the Summon Undead line, which is a nicely controlled way to have skeleton minions)

[lylsyly]

I never use undead. But if one of them asks for a non-core class that is not on the list I will consider it.

These guys and gals already know my style, and they know I will at least consider anything they ask for within limits. Besides, it is kinda late to change things at this point.

Anyway, I will know what they have come up with at 7pm tomorrow night.

[lylsyly]

In case anyone is interested, here is what they did (please note, I ain't gonna say whether I agree or disagree).

Catfolk (RotW) Mystic Ranger (I allowed it), aiming for Order of the Bow Initiate

Uldra (Frostburn) Spellthief

Fire Mephling (PlH) Beguiler aiming for swiftblade

Celadrin (DR 350) Favored Soul (this is the one that wanted to play a Bard, probably still gonna try Prestige Bard)

Astral Deva (race and class from Savage Species) Okay … if thats what you really want. Since it is a 20 level racial class you have to stay in it!

[mabriss lethe]

In case anyone is interested, here is what they did (please note, I ain't gonna say whether I agree or disagree).

Catfolk (RotW) Mystic Ranger (I allowed it), aiming for Order of the Bow Initiate

Uldra (Frostburn) Spellthief

Fire Mephling (PlH) Beguiler aiming for swiftblade

Celadrin (DR 350) Favored Soul (this is the one that wanted to play a Bard, probably still gonna try Prestige Bard)

Astral Deva (race and class from Savage Species) Okay … if thats what you really want. Since it is a 20 level racial class you have to stay in it!

That Astral Deva is going to hurt. 12 HD over 20 levels does not work. (yeah, I know it'd the player's choice and all,) I'd recommend allowing/suggesting some custom modifications. Mainly beefing up its HD progression to at least match the number of HD of the rest of the party. Outsider HD and attendant skills are pretty nice and would allow the Deva to remain, if not competitive, then at least moderately useful. Being behind the curve that badly will mean that you'll either have to weaken encounters to allow the character to be able to participate (and thus making it so the other players simply breeze through the encounters) or relegate the PC to dead weight (making it harder on the rest of the party due to having one character that can't meaningfully contribute)

[lylsyly]

I fixed the HD right at the start (1d8 at each level). Everything else is up to him. He is the normal DM, said he picked it just to see what it could do. I bet you anything that he is checking it out because he's got something on his mind for down the road.

Meh, we'll see. I am not going to change the encounters I have planned since it's only going to be for three weekends. They will survive or they won't.

I will say this though, he never rolls secret dice when he DMs (or plays), and over the years we have all been playing together he has to be the luckiest roller I have ever seen.

[Remuko]

I fixed the HD right at the start (1d8 at each level). Everything else is up to him. He is the normal DM, said he picked it just to see what it could do. I bet you anything that he is checking it out because he's got something on his mind for down the road.

Meh, we'll see. I am not going to change the encounters I have planned since it's only going to be for three weekends. They will survive or they won't.

I will say this though, he never rolls secret dice when he DMs (or plays), and over the years we have all been playing together he has to be the luckiest roller I have ever seen.

Id allow him to buy off the level adjustment of the astral deva racial class as he levels. that way if you guys get to lvl 20 by the end he may be able to squeeze in a class level or 2.

[lylsyly]

Id allow him to buy off the level adjustment of the astral deva racial class as he levels. that way if you guys get to lvl 20 by the end he may be able to squeeze in a class level or 2.

Maybe, if he asks. I gave everyone the +1 racial LA for free. Interestingly, no one added a template. I would have thought I would have gotten a couple of them at least, since we all usually do.

He is hamming it up a bit as a deranged celestial who thinks he is a god and the others work for him.

Key thing is everyone is having a blast.

(breaks over, back to the table)

[Vizzerdrix]

Basically every spellcaster.

Accept sorcerer. Sorcerer is best prced out of as soon as possable as it gets nothing at all.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Accept sorcerer. Sorcerer is best prced out of as soon as possable as it gets nothing at all.

That's true of most dedicated casters. Archivist was mentioned above but the benefits you get for sticking to it are utterly dwarfed by the features of most PrC's that you'd apply to it. Same goes for warmage. Full casters outside the PHB get fewer dead levels but what they get isn't generally very good by any stretch, except the dread necro's undead mastery and craft wondrous item features.

Druid dgaf but most everybody else wants a caster PrC ASAP.