Turning Undead vs Other Creatures

[GilesTheCleric]

Turning is a neat mechanic, but like so many rules in this game, the RAW is sometimes vague. I've put together an argument for why all turning pools should apply for all instances of things requiring turning; I'd like to see how y'all agree or disagree. I'd appreciate if you could cite your sources so I know where to find rules I've overlooked.

The text of domains that grant different turning abilities states “Turn or destroy X creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster Y creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead” PHB 186 (eg Air domain).

It’s also noted that “Regardless of the effect, the general term is turning” PHB 159. Rules Compendium expands upon this idea of the ‘general term’: “Some creatures can channel positive energy, which can drive off or destroy undead, as well as rebuke, command, or bolster deathless. Others can channel negative energy, which can drive off or destroy deathless, as well as rebuke, command, or bolster undead. Some creatures have the ability to turn creatures of other types” RC 146. Deathless are most certainly not undead, and are powered by positive energy rather than negative energy. Despite this, they can be affected by turning even when it's not "turn deathless".

However, both CD and CC call out undead specifically when describing the requirements of feats that are powered by turns. “Instead of attempting to affect an undead creature, you expend a turn or rebuke undead attempt to trigger the benefit of a divine feat you have” CC 53. “The force that powers a divine feat is the ability to channel positive or negative energy to turn or rebuke undead” CD 77.

Defenders of the Faith muddies the waters a bit here (or alternatively, clarifies the quote from CD), in its section on channeling. “According to the Player’s Handbook, a cleric can make a turning check to accomplish effects other than turning or rebuking undead. Some other possible uses for positive or negative energy include the following… Several new feats allow clerics and paladins to use positive energy in new ways… Evil clerics and blackguards can use most of these feats as well, employing negative energy rather than positive energy” DotF 16.

If we return to the PHB, we can see that channeling positive/ negative energy is the key unifying factor amongst all types of turning: “Good clerics and paladins and some neutral clerics can channel positive energy, which can halt, drive off (rout), or destroy undead. Evil clerics and some neutral clerics can channel negative energy, which can halt, awe (rebuke), control (command), or bolster undead” PHB 159. When we read the only extant RAW relating to turning other creatures, it agrees that it works exactly like turning undead -- ie, by channeling energy. “Some clerics have the ability to turn creatures other than undead. For example, a cleric with the Fire domain can turn or destroy water creatures (as if he were a good cleric turning undead) and rebuke or command fire creatures (as if he were an evil cleric rebuking undead)” PHB 160.

The feats, as noted above, are powered by the positive or negative energy that otherwise would have created a turn attempt. From these conclusions, we can infer that "turning undead" is functionally identical to "turning X" or "rebuking Y", and thus any pool should be allowed to apply for effects that require turn attempts. That's provided that the effect's energy type (turning/ positive or rebuking/ negative) matches.

Turning undead is identical to turning other creatures, based on the language in the PHB. “Some clerics have the ability to turn creatures other than undead. For example, a cleric with the Fire domain can turn or destroy water creatures (as if he were a good cleric turning undead) and rebuke or command fire creatures (as if he were an evil cleric rebuking undead)” PHB 160.

The text parenthetically notes that when turning something other than undead, it's done exactly as if turning undead. Therefore, turning other things is identical to turning undead.

[Dagroth]

Well, at the very least it makes those other Domains actually attractive alternatives.

At the worst, it makes building a DMM super-monster even easier because of the wording of Extra Turning...

It also makes the Sovereign Speaker PrC the go-to class for DMM shenanigans.

[GilesTheCleric]

At the worst, it makes building a DMM super-monster even easier because of the wording of Extra Turning...

It does in one respect -- you can get more turns from your class features rather than WBL at lower levels. In a game that allows nightstick stacking, I think allowing alternate turning to be the more balanced solution. It takes away permanent character resources (feats, PrC levels, domain picks), rather than using something as fluid and easily-broken as WBL. I think you can ultimately end up with more turns via nightsticks than you can with your character resources (maybe I'll run the maths on that if I'm not lazy), so it's the lower-power option.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The problem is that there aren't any additional rule-sources for non-undead turning. I've checked, and i own most of the official 3.5 books.
It's never clarified if stuff like elemental turning is affected by items that increase turn undead level or other feats/items/abilities that interact with turning.

There's only three things - there's divine feats that explicitly require elemental turning/earth elemental turning in Dragon Magic and Races of Stone, but that could just be a case of "specific trumps general".
The second is Divine Spell Power which is unique in that it references "turning/rebuking" instead of "turning/rebuking undead". Which could be intentional or not, it's never clarified.
The third is the Rebuke Dragons ACF and the Azurin Cleric sub level with Channel Incarnum, which explicitly count as turn undead. You can infer from that that other turning pools do not (and most people do), but it could just be that the books were printed later in 3.5's run.

That's all there is on non-undead turning pools and their interactions with Turn Undead stuff. Specifics that let you conclude certain general things, if you want to. Or not.
Everything else is balance and RAI discussion, but not RAW.

Most people therefore accept the literal ruling - things like DMM/various boosting items require/affect turn undead, and nowhere does it say that other turning pools count as turn undead.
Yes, it makes non-undead turning pretty much useless outside very specific builds, but that's not exactly unique in 3.5.

[Gemini476]

Well, at the very least it makes those other Domains actually attractive alternatives.

At the worst, it makes building a DMM super-monster even easier because of the wording of Extra Turning...

It also makes the Sovereign Speaker PrC the go-to class for DMM shenanigans.

...Not necessarily? Googling around it looks like Balinor has Earth and Air while Onatar has Fire, and no-one has Necromancy or Water or whatever other alternative pools there are. So all Sovereign Speaker is getting you is one more turning pool. I think. I don't know much about Eberron, so this is just from a quick google.

And since Sovereign Speaker doesn't give you spell progression on level 1, that seems like it may or may not be worth it?

[Dagroth]

The problem is that there aren't any additional rule-sources for non-undead turning. I've checked, and i own most of the official 3.5 books.
It's never clarified if stuff like elemental turning is affected by items that increase turn undead level or other feats/items/abilities that interact with turning.

Extra Turning gives you 4 extra turning attempts in each pool that affects a different creature type.

So, if you have Rebuke Undead, Rebuke Dragons, Rebuke Air creatures & Turn Undead only 3 of those would gain the bonus. You would have to choose between Turn Undead & Rebuke Undead gaining the bonus, since they both affect the same creature type.


...Not necessarily? Googling around it looks like Balinor has Earth and Air while Onatar has Fire, and no-one has Necromancy or Water or whatever other alternative pools there are. So all Sovereign Speaker is getting you is one more turning pool. I think. I don't know much about Eberron, so this is just from a quick google.

And since Sovereign Speaker doesn't give you spell progression on level 1, that seems like it may or may not be worth it?

Domains that grant alternate Turning:
Air, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water
Warforged, Cold, Moon, Scalykind, Slime, Spider

Arawai: Plant
Balinor: Air, Earth
Onatar: Fire, Warforged

So, you can start with 2 of those (and Rebuke Dragons) and then take 3 levels of Sovereign Speaker... then a level of Death Delver, then go into Sacred Exorcist.

That gives you 8 turning pools of 3+Cha. Every time you get Extra Turning, it adds to 7 of those.

Given a Cha of 18 (you're DMM cheesing, after all)... you'd have 56 turn attempts. You need 1 feat to qualify for Sovereign Speaker, 1 feat for Extend Spell, 1 Feat for Persist Spell and 1 Feat for DMM. Since you're losing 2 caster levels, you don't get 4th level spells until Level 9. We don't like that, so we'll dump Death Delver (it's not getting the bonus from Extra Turning, after all). That means we only have 49 turn attempts at level 9 (the earliest we can get into Sacred Exorcist).

As a Human, we go Extend Spell & Persist Spell at 1st level. Worldly Focus at 3rd level, DMM at 6th level and Extra Turning at 9th Level.

We've got 77 turn attempts. Each shot of DMM Persist uses 7, so that's 11 Persisted spells per day. Every time we get Extra Turning that's another 28 attempts, or 4 more Persisted spells per day. Every 2 points of Charisma gives you another 7 attempts, too!

Don't forget, we've got the Spell or Magic Domains from Aureon (stopping at level 5 of Sovereign Speaker, unless you really want War Domain, Glory Domain or one of those other ones).

So yeah, you would be the master of DMM cheese.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Extra Turning gives you 4 extra turning attempts in each pool that affects a different creature type.

So, if you have Rebuke Undead, Rebuke Dragons, Rebuke Air creatures & Turn Undead only 3 of those would gain the bonus. You would have to choose between Turn Undead & Rebuke Undead gaining the bonus, since they both affect the same creature type.


Not what i'm talking about. The discussion is about how non-undead turning is affected by things that only reference turn undead.
Things like divine feats or items like the Ephod of Authority or other items that increase effective turning level, turning damage and so on.

The problem is that the strict reading (turn undead means turn undead, not turn air) makes non-undead turning that doesn't specify it counts as turn undead almost useless.
There is a grand total of one divine feat (Divine Spell Power) that doesn't specify undead, and no items or feats to boost non-undead turning level at all.

So you can't use them to fuel anything, and without turning level boosters even a single-classed cleric 20 will have trouble commanding anything relevant with them.
It doesn't really matter if Extra Turning gives you extra uses if those uses don't do anything? What use is a 10 HD minion at level 20, at best?

That's probably the reason Giles started this argument (i assume). It even makes sense. I doubt those alternative turning pools were meant to be useless, and they are even in non-optimized campaigns.
The problem is that there is no clear ruling one way or the other anywhere. And because of DMM most people go with the stricter interpretation.

[Gemini476]

The alternative turning pools aren't useless in unoptimized campaigns - they're just thoroughly outclassed by other stuff, much like Turn Undead is.

You can control a 2HD elemental at level 4, for instance, when that's still halfway relevant. You can also, well, turn them. Control isn't the only use, y'know - sending a [fire] creature of equal hit dice into a panic may or may not be a worthwhile use of a standard action in an unoptimized game. Or a [water] creature cowering.

Remember, the assumption seems to be that PC clerics will Turn Undead while villainous NPC clerics Command them. Divine metamagic and other alternative uses for turn Undead don't show up until much later, once the designers realised the mechanic was a bit underpowered.

[Troacctid]

Other types of turning/rebuking can certainly be used for things that require turning/rebuking, provided they do not specify that they require turn/rebuke undead. If they do specify that, then you have to use turn/rebuke undead, as per the text of the ability. This is fairly straightforward—refer to the text.


Not what i'm talking about. The discussion is about how non-undead turning is affected by things that only reference turn undead.
Things like divine feats or items like the Ephod of Authority or other items that increase effective turning level, turning damage and so on.

The problem is that the strict reading (turn undead means turn undead, not turn air) makes non-undead turning that doesn't specify it counts as turn undead almost useless.
There is a grand total of one divine feat (Divine Spell Power) that doesn't specify undead, and no items or feats to boost non-undead turning level at all.

So you can't use them to fuel anything, and without turning level boosters even a single-classed cleric 20 will have trouble commanding anything relevant with them.
It doesn't really matter if Extra Turning gives you extra uses if those uses don't do anything? What use is a 10 HD minion at level 20, at best?

That's probably the reason Giles started this argument (i assume). It even makes sense. I doubt those alternative turning pools were meant to be useless, and they are even in non-optimized campaigns.
The problem is that there is no clear ruling one way or the other anywhere. And because of DMM most people go with the stricter interpretation.
Uh, they're obviously not useless, because you can use them to turn and rebuke/command creatures. As they are intended to be used.

And there are absolutely ways to increase your effective turning level for non-undead. There's literally a feat for it right in the Player's Handbook.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Other types of turning/rebuking can certainly be used for things that require turning/rebuking, provided they do not specify that they require turn/rebuke undead. If they do specify that, then you have to use turn/rebuke undead, as per the text of the ability. This is fairly straightforward—refer to the text.
Except there is only one divine feat that doesn't specify undead, aside from those that specify elemental/earth. Which is the whole problem.


Uh, they're obviously not useless, because you can use them to turn and rebuke/command creatures. As they are intended to be used.
Even assuming you stay single-classed turning rapidly loses power as levels increase, simply because of the fact that most creatures have HD higher than their CR.
If you PrC you may as well not bother.


And there are absolutely ways to increase your effective turning level for non-undead. There's literally a feat for it right in the Player's Handbook.
Okay, Improved Turning raises all turning levels by 1. My bad. But it doesn't change the fact that all/most of the other things don't.

You can actually make turning undead pretty powerful if you invest in it, even without using Sun domain. Turning boosters aren't even all that expensive, so it's a pretty valid use of WBL in an undead-heavy campaign.
The others tend to fall behind against anything level-appropriate, and spending build resources on abilities that will only affect mooks is pretty suboptimal.

[Gemini476]

While there's a lot of undead/elementals/dragons with hit dice far in excess of their CR, that's less of an issue at the lower levels where most play apparently takes place and also, well, you can probably turn whatever your counterparts can control.

A good cleric can turn the undead minions of an evil cleric, and a cleric with the Water domain comes in direct opposition with a cleric with the Fire domain. It's situational, but it's a thing.

Here's what a core Cleric is dealing with, according to the Monster Manual: (difference between hit dice and CR in paranthesis)
(Air):
air mephit, (+0)
arrowhawk, (+0, +2, +7)
cloud giant, (+6)
dust mephit, (+0)
green dragon, (+2, +4, +6, +6, +6, +7, +7, +8, +10, +11, +13, +14)
ice mephit, (+0)
will-o’-wisp. (+3)

Elemental (Air):
belker, (+1)
air elementals, (+1, +1, +3, +9, +12, +13)
invisible stalker (+1)

(Earth):
blue dragon, (+3, +5, +6, +7, +7, +7, +8, +9, +11, +12, +13, +14)
copper dragon, (+2, +3, +4, +5, +6, +6, +7, +7, +9 ,+10, +12, +13)
earth mephit, (+0)
gargoyle, (+0)
salt mephit, (+0)
stone giant. (+6, +5)

Elemental (Earth):
earth elementals, (+1, +1, +3, +9, +12, +13)
thoqqua. (+1)

(Fire):
azer, (+0)
brass dragon, (+1, +3, +4, +5, +6, +7, +7, +8, +9, +11, +13, +14)
fire giant, (+5)
fire mephit, (+0)
gold dragon, (+3, +4, +5, +6, +6, +7, +7, +8, +10, +11, +13, +14)
magma mephit, (+0)
pyrohydra, (-1)
red dragon, (+3, +5, +6, +6, +6, +7, +7, +8, +10, +11, +13, +14)
steam mephit. (+0)

Elemental (Fire):
fire elementals, (+1, +1, +3, +9, +12, +13)
magmin, (-1)
thoqqua. (+1)

(Water):
black dragon, (+1, +3, +5, +6, +7, +8, +8, +9, +10, +12, +14, +15)
bronze dragon, (+3, +4, +5, +6, +6, +6, +7, +8, +10, +11, +13, +14)
ooze mephit, (+0)
water mephit. (+0)

Elemental (Water):
water elementals. (+1, +1, +3, +9, +12, +13)

Undead:
allip, (+3)
bodak, (+1)
devourer, (+1)
ghast, (+3)
ghost, (+2?)
ghoul, (+3)
lich, (+2?)
mohrg, (+6)
mummy, (+3)
nightshades, (+7, +5, +3)
shadow, (+2, +1)
skeletons, (+1/3rds - +12, human +2/3rds)
spectre, (+2)
vampire, (+2?)
vampire spawn, (+2)
wight, (+1)
wraith, (+2, +5)
zombie. (+3/8ths - +14, human +1 1/2nds)

Things to consider when skimming through this: if you have two creatures it's +2CR, four +4CR, eight +6CR; maximum hit dice turned is a 1d20+CHA check, ranging from cleric level -4 (0 or lower) through level +0 (10-12) to level +4 (22+); turning damage (i.e. number of hit dice turned) is 2d6+level+CHA.

For instance, consider the Mummy (+3 HD over CR): the "warden squad" of 2-4 mummies brings that down to +1 or -1, and the "guardian detail" of 6-10 ends up at -2 to -4. Easy turning for the Cleric, but they're not likely to be able to turn more than two of them.
The Mohrg's +6 is scary, but in the "mob" (2-4 plus 5-10 zombies) it's really more of a +3. (The zombies act as a shield, though.)

Elemental Clerics are mostly limited to mephits and weak elementals, but if you find one of those groups of mated dragons you can mind-control their young. They probably won't be that useful, though.


Overall it just really confirms that turning in general is meant for weak mobs. (Not that you couldn't already tell from the whole "maximum hit dice affected" vs. "total hit dice affected" mechanic. You'll turn or destroy a bunch of weaklings without issue, but will have issues with turning a single strong one.)

It's a no-save-just-lose towards a not-insignificant number of monsters, though, so it's probably worth keeping in your back pocket?

[sleepyphoenixx]

While there's a lot of undead/elementals/dragons with hit dice far in excess of their CR, that's less of an issue at the lower levels where most play apparently takes place and also, well, you can probably turn whatever your counterparts can control.

A good cleric can turn the undead minions of an evil cleric, and a cleric with the Water domain comes in direct opposition with a cleric with the Fire domain. It's situational, but it's a thing.

Here's what a core Cleric is dealing with, according to the Monster Manual: (difference between hit dice and CR in paranthesis)
(Air):
air mephit, (+0)
arrowhawk, (+0, +2, +7)
cloud giant, (+6)
dust mephit, (+0)
green dragon, (+2, +4, +6, +6, +6, +7, +7, +8, +10, +11, +13, +14)
ice mephit, (+0)
will-o’-wisp. (+3)

Elemental (Air):
belker, (+1)
air elementals, (+1, +1, +3, +9, +12, +13)
invisible stalker (+1)

(Earth):
blue dragon, (+3, +5, +6, +7, +7, +7, +8, +9, +11, +12, +13, +14)
copper dragon, (+2, +3, +4, +5, +6, +6, +7, +7, +9 ,+10, +12, +13)
earth mephit, (+0)
gargoyle, (+0)
salt mephit, (+0)
stone giant. (+6, +5)

Elemental (Earth):
earth elementals, (+1, +1, +3, +9, +12, +13)
thoqqua. (+1)

(Fire):
azer, (+0)
brass dragon, (+1, +3, +4, +5, +6, +7, +7, +8, +9, +11, +13, +14)
fire giant, (+5)
fire mephit, (+0)
gold dragon, (+3, +4, +5, +6, +6, +7, +7, +8, +10, +11, +13, +14)
magma mephit, (+0)
pyrohydra, (-1)
red dragon, (+3, +5, +6, +6, +6, +7, +7, +8, +10, +11, +13, +14)
steam mephit. (+0)

Elemental (Fire):
fire elementals, (+1, +1, +3, +9, +12, +13)
magmin, (-1)
thoqqua. (+1)

(Water):
black dragon, (+1, +3, +5, +6, +7, +8, +8, +9, +10, +12, +14, +15)
bronze dragon, (+3, +4, +5, +6, +6, +6, +7, +8, +10, +11, +13, +14)
ooze mephit, (+0)
water mephit. (+0)

Elemental (Water):
water elementals. (+1, +1, +3, +9, +12, +13)

Undead:
allip, (+3)
bodak, (+1)
devourer, (+1)
ghast, (+3)
ghost, (+2?)
ghoul, (+3)
lich, (+2?)
mohrg, (+6)
mummy, (+3)
nightshades, (+7, +5, +3)
shadow, (+2, +1)
skeletons, (+1/3rds - +12, human +2/3rds)
spectre, (+2)
vampire, (+2?)
vampire spawn, (+2)
wight, (+1)
wraith, (+2, +5)
zombie. (+3/8ths - +14, human +1 1/2nds)

Things to consider when skimming through this: if you have two creatures it's +2CR, four +4CR, eight +6CR; maximum hit dice turned is a 1d20+CHA check, ranging from cleric level -4 (0 or lower) through level +0 (10-12) to level +4 (22+); turning damage (i.e. number of hit dice turned) is 2d6+level+CHA.

For instance, consider the Mummy (+3 HD over CR): the "warden squad" of 2-4 mummies brings that down to +1 or -1, and the "guardian detail" of 6-10 ends up at -2 to -4. Easy turning for the Cleric, but they're not likely to be able to turn more than two of them.
The Mohrg's +6 is scary, but in the "mob" (2-4 plus 5-10 zombies) it's really more of a +3. (The zombies act as a shield, though.)

Elemental Clerics are mostly limited to mephits and weak elementals, but if you find one of those groups of mated dragons you can mind-control their young. They probably won't be that useful, though.


Overall it just really confirms that turning in general is meant for weak mobs. (Not that you couldn't already tell from the whole "maximum hit dice affected" vs. "total hit dice affected" mechanic. You'll turn or destroy a bunch of weaklings without issue, but will have issues with turning a single strong one.)

It's a no-save-just-lose towards a not-insignificant number of monsters, though, so it's probably worth keeping in your back pocket?
If you're going to invest into turning you probably want to go for the destroy/command. Just turning/rebuking isn't really worth the investment, considering it's creature-type specific.
Otherwise it's like pretty much everything else in the game - if you want to be really good at something you need to invest in it.
Out of the box turning is barely good enough for mooks, as you noted. Probably not even that unless you're out of spells, otherwise you have better things to do with your actions.

The difference is that there are a lot of methods to boost turning/rebuking undead, to the point where you can command even undead with HD higher than yours. They also tend to be pretty affordable.
Those methods flat-out don't exist for the non-standard turning options, if you go by RAW. Using non-undead turning as divine feat fuel is also out for most cases.

Turning level boosters aren't really worth it for good clerics - Sun domain and any one of the better turn level boosters takes care of anything halfway level appropriate pretty easily for less investment- but for evil clerics and dread necros who want to command undead minions they're a decent investment.
Having two minions that match or exceed your HD is pretty damn good, especially if you customize them (like resurrecting humanoid enemies with class levels with an appropriate template and then commanding them).

[Holydarkness]

Extra Turning gives you 4 extra turning attempts in each pool that affects a different creature type.

So, if you have Rebuke Undead, Rebuke Dragons, Rebuke Air creatures & Turn Undead only 3 of those would gain the bonus. You would have to choose between Turn Undead & Rebuke Undead gaining the bonus, since they both affect the same creature type.



Domains that grant alternate Turning:
Air, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water
Warforged, Cold, Moon, Scalykind, Slime, Spider

Arawai: Plant
Balinor: Air, Earth
Onatar: Fire, Warforged

So, you can start with 2 of those (and Rebuke Dragons) and then take 3 levels of Sovereign Speaker... then a level of Death Delver, then go into Sacred Exorcist.

That gives you 8 turning pools of 3+Cha. Every time you get Extra Turning, it adds to 7 of those.

Given a Cha of 18 (you're DMM cheesing, after all)... you'd have 56 turn attempts. You need 1 feat to qualify for Sovereign Speaker, 1 feat for Extend Spell, 1 Feat for Persist Spell and 1 Feat for DMM. Since you're losing 2 caster levels, you don't get 4th level spells until Level 9. We don't like that, so we'll dump Death Delver (it's not getting the bonus from Extra Turning, after all). That means we only have 49 turn attempts at level 9 (the earliest we can get into Sacred Exorcist).

As a Human, we go Extend Spell & Persist Spell at 1st level. Worldly Focus at 3rd level, DMM at 6th level and Extra Turning at 9th Level.

We've got 77 turn attempts. Each shot of DMM Persist uses 7, so that's 11 Persisted spells per day. Every time we get Extra Turning that's another 28 attempts, or 4 more Persisted spells per day. Every 2 points of Charisma gives you another 7 attempts, too!

Don't forget, we've got the Spell or Magic Domains from Aureon (stopping at level 5 of Sovereign Speaker, unless you really want War Domain, Glory Domain or one of those other ones).

So yeah, you would be the master of DMM cheese.

While I know this may count as thread Necromancy, I just came across this. I want to make a distinction for anyone who looks this up.

In Dragon 340 the Sage makes a clear ruling that non-undead turning/rebuking cannot power Divine Metamagic, or any other divine feat that calls out for the ability to turn or rebuke undead.

[GilesTheCleric]

While I know this may count as thread Necromancy, I just came across this. I want to make a distinction for anyone who looks this up.

In Dragon 340 the Sage makes a clear ruling that non-undead turning/rebuking cannot power Divine Metamagic, or any other divine feat that calls out for the ability to turn or rebuke undead.

A good note for folks to know, thanks for bringing it up. It's also worth noting that around here, Sage rulings are considered just another perspective -- they're not RAW.

Reading the text for each feat usually makes it clear whether that feat accepts turning generally (which would include rebuking, commanding, and destroying for any type of creature), or explicitly turn undead only. I made the original post in an attempt to suss out whether that distinction actually mattered.