Warlock Mystic Arcanum question.

[Alter Requiem]

Do warlocks still need the materials associated with a mystic arcanum assigned spell to cast it?
I would assume yes, but the way that the rulebook says it implies that your patron "bestows" you the power/ability to cast the spell. Which to me sounds like theyre allowing you to just unleash the spell, rather than learn how to cast it. If no, does this apply to all bonus/perk spells with the description of "Can be cast without the use of a spell slot"?

{Scrubbed}

[JumboWheat01]

Generally exceptions are noted, rather than normal being stated. Mystic Arcanum doesn't explicitly state that you do not need to expend material components to cast the spell, so you do still need them.

[Erys]

Do warlocks still need the materials associated with a mystic arcanum assigned spell to cast it?
I would assume yes, but the way that the rulebook says it implies that your patron "bestows" you the power/ability to cast the spell. Which to me sounds like theyre allowing you to just unleash the spell, rather than learn how to cast it. If no, does this apply to all bonus/perk spells with the description of "Can be cast without the use of a spell slot"?

(Also first post, woot)

Welcome. :smallsmile:

Any ability that allows you to not use material components will say. See Fiendish Vigor as an example.

[Alter Requiem]

I guess im just curious why they wouldnt have just let warlocks have 1 level 6,7,8 and 9 slot rather than come up with some almost identical way to cast those spells with no tradeoff for not being able to cast the lower level spells in those higher slots. Just seemed like it would be a little more understandable if you didnt need non-cost specific components. As it is, just seems a little strange. Thx for the answers.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I guess im just curious why they wouldnt have just let warlocks have 1 level 6,7,8 and 9 slot rather than come up with some almost identical way to cast those spells with no tradeoff for not being able to cast the lower level spells in those higher slots. Just seemed like it would be a little more understandable if you didnt need non-cost specific components. As it is, just seems a little strange. Thx for the answers.

Because that would break the pattern of warlock slots always upgrading when the new one becomes available. Notice warlocks DON'T have the "Spellcasting" class feature (hence why their multi-classing is weird). They have the Pact Magic class feature which acts differently.

[Alter Requiem]

Ok so then warlocks have at level 20

4 cantrips
4 spells at level 5
And 4 mystic arcanums

right?

[NecroDancer]

Ok so then warlocks have at level 20

4 cantrips
4 spells at level 5
And 4 mystic arcanums

right?

And a bunch of invocations

[Naanomi]

Ok so then warlocks have at level 20

4 cantrips
4 spells at level 5
And 4 mystic arcanums

right?
And maybe a few more spells through Invocations, but yes seems about right

[Alter Requiem]

But most of the valuble invocations (such as polymorph) eat up a spell slot right? Or do they add another slot to be used only by polymorph?

[JakOfAllTirades]

But most of the valuble invocations (such as polymorph) eat up a spell slot right? Or do they add another slot to be used only by polymorph?

Yeah, some Invocations use a spell slot. Some don't.

Pact Magic is different. Mystic Arcanum is different but it doesn't work like Pact Magic does... it's kind of a mess.

Sometimes I wish WOTC would just start over on the Warlock and come up with a consistent set of mechanics for the class that work together from level 1 to 20.

[Alter Requiem]

Yeah so basically i have 4 POWERFUL spells able to be slotted at 20, not including stuff like trash false life and its 8hp. Honestly if i knew that my spell pool was going to be so shallow, i probably would have just made a necro school wizard or something. Spamming eldritch blast loses its luster after a few sessions.

[Rhedyn]

But most of the valuble invocations (such as polymorph) eat up a spell slot right? Or do they add another slot to be used only by polymorph?
I would say those are the worst invocations.

[Alter Requiem]

I would say those are the worst invocations. i guess i meant to say "powerful" not valuble.

[Rhedyn]

i guess i meant to say "powerful" not valuble.I wouldn't call them powerful either.

More akin to a "Trap option"

[Kane0]

Perhaps (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377591-Pact-making-101-A-guide-to-the-5th-edition-Warlock) relevant. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485736-Selling-your-Soul-at-a-Premium-The-Warlock-s-Guide-to-Power)

[Tanarii]

Ok so then warlocks have at level 20

4 cantrips
4 spells at level 5
And 4 mystic arcanums

right?correction:
4 x 5th level spell slots per short rest.

In the "typical" adventuring day that should work out to 12 x 5th level spell slots per long rest, since you should expect to have 2 short rests in between. Obviously that might vary, but it's the baseline standard.

In other words, if you're comparing them to casters with the spellcasting feature, multiply their spell slots by 3 to make the comparison.

[Millstone85]

it implies that your patron "bestows" you the power/ability to cast the spell.I would say this is already the fluff of Pact Magic.


not including stuff like trash false life and its 8hp.What is so trash about 1d4 + 4 temporary hit points at will?

[JellyPooga]

I would say this is already the fluff of Pact Magic.

What is so trash about 1d4 + 4 temporary hit points at will?

Because they're temp HP and 5-8 temp HP is nothing much to shout about when things are hitting you for 15-20 points of damage a hit. It's something, yes, but it's a drop in the ocean once you're past level 5.

If it scaled at all, only took a Bonus Action to cast, or didn't overlap another Class Feature possessed by the Warlock, I might consider it a bit better, but as it is? It's great at level 1...oh, that's right, you can't get it at the level it would be of most use :smallannoyed:

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Because they're temp HP and 5-8 temp HP is nothing much to shout about when things are hitting you for 15-20 points of damage a hit. It's something, yes, but it's a drop in the ocean once you're past level 5.

If it scaled at all, only took a Bonus Action to cast, or didn't overlap another Class Feature possessed by the Warlock, I might consider it a bit better, but as it is? It's great at level 1...oh, that's right, you can't get it at the level it would be of most use :smallannoyed:

Eh, it's a fairly good pick from 2-5ish. Your average 2nd level warlock has somewhere between 13-19 hp, which makes 8hp that you can freely restore between fights a pretty significant boost. Past 5ish it ages out badly, but then you can just swap it out.

[coredump]

Because they're temp HP and 5-8 temp HP is nothing much to shout about when things are hitting you for 15-20 points of damage a hit. It's something, yes, but it's a drop in the ocean once you're past level 5.


Its cast at-will... so it will always be 8hp. And 8hp is a pretty big deal at most levels, especially when you can get it for *every* fight. I have a War8 with 51hp. Getting a 16% boost that I can replenish for *free* after every fight is a pretty good boost And it helps all the time....every fight.... things like Devil's Sight is pretty cool, but doesn't come into play all that often.

Even at level 13 my War will have 81hp, getting a 10% boost is still pretty respectable.

[Tanarii]

And 8hp is a pretty big deal at most levels, especially when you can get it for *every* fight.
Looked at another way, in the average adventuring day of medium/hard fights it's around 8*6 hps, or 48 hps. A lvl 10 warlock might have 62 hps (con 12), *1.5 for Hit Dice spent, or 93. That means False Life at will is approximately 1/3 of a Warlocks daily hit points at level 10.

Of course, that's not a totally reasonable calculation. First of all, you don't expect characters, especially casters, to be using up their daily hit points, nor to fail to recieve any healing. But what really makes it less useful as you level up is that any Warlock likely to be losing their full allotment of hit points will be casting Armor of Agathys and probably also have Dark One's Blessing, which overlap.

But even just looking at it in terms of total hit points, it's still far more than 10% during any given any fight, and 50% of your total across a day. Its one of the best invocations for combat heavy campaigns.

[JellyPooga]

Eh, it's a fairly good pick from 2-5ish. Your average 2nd level warlock has somewhere between 13-19 hp, which makes 8hp that you can freely restore between fights a pretty significant boost. Past 5ish it ages out badly, but then you can just swap it out.

This I agree with. It's ok at early levels, but it's just not worth holding on to after that.


Its cast at-will... so it will always be 8hp.

This I don't. Given ample opportunity, yes, it will be 8HP at the start of a fight. You don't always have ample opportunity and, more importantly, the times when it really matters, you might not have a chance to cast it at all. Here's some examples of what I mean:

- During a Stealth mission
- During a chase (common both before and after combats)
- During a series of closely sequential combats
- If a social any scene immediately follows a combat scene and leads on to further combat down the line.

So no, I disagree with the notion that it's a reasonable assumption that you'll have opportunity to cast it over and over until you get the max. Further; HP are an abstract concept. The Character doesn't know what you've rolled. There is an argument that a GM shouldn't allow the "infinite re-roll for max HP".

The difference between 5 and 8 isn't that great, but even at max, it still remains a fraction of most individual hits you'll be likely to take and it's unlikely you're ever going to renew it during the course of a combat.


Looked at another way, in the average adventuring day of medium/hard fights it's around 8*6 hps, or 48 hps.

Of course, that's not a totally reasonable calculation.

As you say, this is a misleading figure. To add to your points, see above about it not always being 8HP (though I concede that it commonly will be 8HP). Secondly, not every encounter is a combat one. If you're playing a combat-only campaign; great, it's worth between 30 and 48 HP over the course of an average day (assuming 6 encounters). If the campaign you're playing supports all three of the adventuring pillars, though...well, that figure drops dramatically.


any Warlock likely to be losing their full allotment of hit points will be casting Armor of Agathys and probably also have Dark One's Blessing, which overlap.

This is probably the biggest reason I consider it a "trap" invocation. The most likely Warlock to want it has far better options that it doesn't stack with.

[Tanarii]

As you say, this is a misleading figure. To add to your points, see above about it not always being 8HP (though I concede that it commonly will be 8HP). Secondly, not every encounter is a combat one. If you're playing a combat-only campaign; great, it's worth between 30 and 48 HP over the course of an average day (assuming 6 encounters). If the campaign you're playing supports all three of the adventuring pillars, though...well, that figure drops dramatically.If it isn't using up a portion of party resources, it's not an encounter. Or (at best) it's an Easy encounter.


This is probably the biggest reason I consider it a "trap" invocation. The most likely Warlock to want it has far better options that it doesn't stack with.Calling it a "trap" is pure delusion.

[JellyPooga]

If it isn't using up a portion of party resources, it's not an encounter. Or (at best) it's an Easy encounter.

Calling it a "trap" is pure delusion.

Just because it's not combat, doesn't mean it won't use resources. Many spells have a sole use outside of combat, for example, and some resource based Class Features can be or are often used outside of combat (e.g. Bardic Inspiration). Dismissing all non-combat Encounters as "at best Easy" would be a delusion :smallbiggrin:

It's not a trap trap like Eyes of the Runekeeper is, no, but it's a far cry from one of the better options available. It's one of those ones that's "kinda nice to have", but it's hardly an integral part of any build that expects to punch much above its weight and it's well worth switching out in higher level play, if you took it at low level. I'd never even consider picking it up past level 10.

[coredump]

This I don't. Given ample opportunity, yes, it will be 8HP at the start of a fight. You don't always have ample opportunity and, more importantly, the times when it really matters, you might not have a chance to cast it at all. Here's some examples of what I mean:

- During a Stealth mission
- During a chase (common both before and after combats)
- During a series of closely sequential combats
- If a social any scene immediately follows a combat scene and leads on to further combat down the line.
You cast it first thing in the morning, you don't wait until you are sneaking up on the guards to cast it. It takes 30-60 seconds in all but the most extreme cases.... if you are not getting 30 seconds between combats, you are running a very different campaign than most.
Yes, there are some edge cases where you will not have the chance to multi-cast it, but the vast majority of times, you will have a minute between combats.



This is probably the biggest reason I consider it a "trap" invocation. The most likely Warlock to want it has far better options that it doesn't stack with.
Just because it isn't as useful for certain specific builds, doesn't mean it isn't useful. The only time I would use 1/2 of my slots for AoA, is if I was going to be in melee on a regular basis. Whereas False Life helps even against ranged attacks, spell attacks, traps, etc Further, AoA only lasts 1 hr, while FL lasts until it is needed/used.
Now, of course FL isn't quite as useful if you have the Fiend patron....but lots of warlocks have someone else. Even then, FL has the advantage of being cast before combat and not requiring you to get the killing blow to trigger the THP.
No one is saying its a great invocation for every build of every warlock. But getting a consistent 8 HP is a pretty good boost to your survivability.

[JellyPooga]

No one is saying its a great invocation for every build of every warlock. But getting a consistent 8 HP is a pretty good boost to your survivability.

I'm not saying it's complete trash. I'm saying that it's simply not a priority Invocation and by the time any given build gets around to considering picking it up as a tertiary, or even secondary, option it's probably already passed its prime.

[Tanarii]

Just because it's not combat, doesn't mean it won't use resources. Many spells have a sole use outside of combat, for example, and some resource based Class Features can be or are often used outside of combat (e.g. Bardic Inspiration). Dismissing all non-combat Encounters as "at best Easy" would be a delusion :smallbiggrin:Oh, you mean it might not be an encounter that specifically uses Hit Point resources. Ya, totally true.

And I'm not dismissing all non-combat encounters as at best Easy. I'm dismissing all Encounters that doesn’t tax the characters’ resources or put them in serious peril as at best Easy, and thus should not be rewarded XP beyond Easy encounter level, using the DMG guidelines. I'm talking about the term 'Encounter' as used by the DMG & 5e, not colloquially by D&D players. Thus, the term relevant to things like baseline for determining balance of things like how useful at-will False Life is.


It's not a trap trap like Eyes of the Runekeeper is, no, but it's a far cry from one of the better options available. It's one of those ones that's "kinda nice to have", but it's hardly an integral part of any build that expects to punch much above its weight and it's well worth switching out in higher level play, if you took it at low level. I'd never even consider picking it up past level 10.'past level 10' isn't really a relevant to me and I'm never really considering it when discussing balance of things, since that's high level play and not really anything I participate in very often. I really should sig that or something, because that obviously thoroughly biases my view. OTOH almost all public and private play groups I'm aware of play primarily in the 5-10 range anyway. IMX is the WotC devs are right on the money considering that the primary range of levels in games.

So with that rambling caveat ... it's sky blue at level 1-4, and blue at levels 5-10. IMO and YMMV etc etc weasel words. :smallwink:

Also sorry for the delusion comment that wasn't polite. :smallredface:

[JellyPooga]

And I'm not dismissing all non-combat encounters as at best Easy.

Also sorry for the delusion comment that wasn't polite. :smallredface:

No worries; I should have clarified that I wasn't trying to accuse you of dismissing all non-combat encounters. Just saying that, you know, if you did...:smalltongue:


'past level 10' isn't really a relevant to me and I'm never really considering it when discussing balance of things
[snip]
So with that rambling caveat ... it's sky blue at level 1-4, and blue at levels 5-10. IMO and YMMV etc etc weasel words. :smallwink:

I'll admit I've never played any D&D past level 14 (except on a CRPG) and the one time I played even that high I didn't much like it! So yeah, most of my experience is with below 10th and I agree that WotC are pretty spot on with their demographics. Your colour analysis is a little generous IMO, but it depends on the scale; if it's something along the lines of [Best, Good, Average, Poor, JUST NO], I'd definitely adjust both down a step; even at levels 2-4 I wouldn't call it great, let alone one of the best choices. After 10th, it's definitely in Poor territory I reckon, but it probably stays there all the way up to 20th; if you've found a niche for it and are getting use out if at 10th level, you'll probably continue to get similar use and despite slipping further down the scale the higher your level, it never becomes downright terrible.

As you say, mileage varies :smallbiggrin:

[Captain Morgan]

This I agree with. It's ok at early levels, but it's just not worth holding on to after that.



This I don't. Given ample opportunity, yes, it will be 8HP at the start of a fight. You don't always have ample opportunity and, more importantly, the times when it really matters, you might not have a chance to cast it at all. Here's some examples of what I mean:

- During a Stealth mission
- During a chase (common both before and after combats)
- During a series of closely sequential combats
- If a social any scene immediately follows a combat scene and leads on to further combat down the line.

So no, I disagree with the notion that it's a reasonable assumption that you'll have opportunity to cast it over and over until you get the max. Further; HP are an abstract concept. The Character doesn't know what you've rolled. There is an argument that a GM shouldn't allow the "infinite re-roll for max HP".

The difference between 5 and 8 isn't that great, but even at max, it still remains a fraction of most individual hits you'll be likely to take and it's unlikely you're ever going to renew it during the course of a combat.



As you say, this is a misleading figure. To add to your points, see above about it not always being 8HP (though I concede that it commonly will be 8HP). Secondly, not every encounter is a combat one. If you're playing a combat-only campaign; great, it's worth between 30 and 48 HP over the course of an average day (assuming 6 encounters). If the campaign you're playing supports all three of the adventuring pillars, though...well, that figure drops dramatically.



This is probably the biggest reason I consider it a "trap" invocation. The most likely Warlock to want it has far better options that it doesn't stack with.

HP might be an abstraction, but the character still has to be aware of this abstractly. Meaning, if you cast the spell more than once, you'll notice sometimes you feel more invigorated than others. It's no more meta than your PC knowing he's acting under haste, or doesn't need any more healing spells because he's at full.

I also think if you are getting consecutive battles where you can't even recast false life, the Warlock is a bad class anyway. You need those naps.

And if you want social or exploration tools, there are plenty of invocations for that. Personally, I don't prioritize false life either because I'd rather have a sexy new tool in the kit like silent image, but I can certainly see the appeal if you want to be combat focused.

[JellyPooga]

HP might be an abstraction, but the character still has to be aware of this abstractly. Meaning, if you cast the spell more than once, you'll notice sometimes you feel more invigorated than others. It's no more meta than your PC knowing he's acting under haste, or doesn't need any more healing spells because he's at full.

I don't particularly agree with the argument I put forward on this point, I was just pointing that there is an argument to be had along those lines. I can definitely see some stricter GMs advocating it.


I also think if you are getting consecutive battles where you can't even recast false life, the Warlock is a bad class anyway. You need those naps.

Consecutive battles? Yes, I would tend to agree. Consecutive encounters or activity? Not so much. Warlocks need Short Rests, true, but Pact Magic isn't their only ability and pushing characters to their limits is one way of creating tension and excitement. For example;

"As you slay the final Orc, the door behind you slams and you feel a tremor in the ground beneath your feet. A booming voice echoes through the dungeon "Well done foolish mortals! Let's see how you deal with this!". The tremors increase to a shaking, you hear the sharp retort of stone sundering under great strain. A great crack spreads across the ceiling and a chuck of rock falls to the floor. It feels as if the whole dungeon is being shaken by an immense titan. WHAT DO YOU DO?"

You gonna stand there for a minute to recast False Life until you've got 8hp? Or are you going to make a bolt for the door and run? Once you get to safety, let's say you (literally) run straight into a social encounter. Do you want to risk the outcome of that encounter by busting out a wand and casting spells over and over.
"Uh...what's he doing?"
"Oh nothing, he's just calling on the dark unfathomable powers of things beyond mortal ken to reinvigorate his body"
"Umm...okay then" [Trust: -10]

What if the outcome of that social scene ends in a fight (the social encounter went really badly)? No tempHP for you, unless you want to waste some actions on it (or, I suppose, if it only ended in a fight because you were standing at the back casting spells instead of helping with your high Charisma).

I agree that most of the time, you'll get a chance to re-max your tempHP with this Invocation. I think it's probably more common than some might think that you won't have that opportunity though. I certainly wouldn't agree to any player "assuming" he's always got 8 tempHP at the start of every fight; if I were GMing, he'd need to tell me when he's doing it to get them.

[Captain Morgan]

The thing is, what are you comparing false life to? Beyond your staple invocations like Agonizing Blast, Book of Secrets, or Thirsting Blade, most combat relevant invocations cost a spell slot. So in the scenario you outlined, odds are you also expended your two spell slots. So all of those are out. Even stuff like Devil's Sight isn't relevant if someone else fails to cast Darkness, since you are out.

The at will invocations are, for the most part, utility oriented. Repelling Blast and Silent Image can both have combat applications in the right situation, but unless your dm is really creative with your battle field terrain, they probably come up less often than False Life does. Again, this assumes combat is your jam. I like to build warlocks for utility and scouting and deception, but other people want to be an arcane fighter instead.

[Tanarii]

Repelling Blast and Silent Image can both have combat applications in the right situation, but unless your dm is really creative with your battle field terrain, they probably come up less often than False Life does.Repelling Blast is pretty much exclusively a combat application ...

[Captain Morgan]

Repelling Blast is pretty much exclusively a combat application ...
True, I just meant it probably doesn't have profound effects in encounters without cliffs to shove people off of. You may prevent the occasional damage by shoving someone out of reach, but your more likely to do that when you get multiple beams, and he false life invocation is losing luster by then anyway.

[Yagyujubei]

Yeah so basically i have 4 POWERFUL spells able to be slotted at 20, not including stuff like trash false life and its 8hp. Honestly if i knew that my spell pool was going to be so shallow, i probably would have just made a necro school wizard or something. Spamming eldritch blast loses its luster after a few sessions.

seems like you were unclear as to what a warlock was from the start :/ The whole meat and potatoes of warlock is EB and the pact magic is just icing on the cake. warlock is a ranged blaster with a handfull of tricks and spells, not a wizard

[JellyPooga]

The thing is, what are you comparing false life to? Beyond your staple invocations like Agonizing Blast, Book of Secrets, or Thirsting Blade, most combat relevant invocations cost a spell slot. So in the scenario you outlined, odds are you also expended your two spell slots.

You're only out of spell slots if you decided (or had) to burn them on the first fight. Warlocks have very few slots and can expect 2 or 3 encounters before getting to replenish them; they've got to be stingy.

As for comparisons, well, let's rack 'em and stack 'em:
Pretty much every Warlock wants these (if they can have them).
- Agonizing Blast
- Book of Ancient Secrets (Tome)
- Devil's Sight
- Misty Visions
- Thirsting Blade (Blade, 5th)
Not every Warlock wants them, but..they're nice.
- Armour of Shadows
- Ascendant Step (9th)
- Chains of Carceri (Chain, 15th)
- Eldritch Sight
- Lifedrinker (Blade, 12th)
- Mask of Many Faces
- Master of Myriad Forms (15th)
- Mire the Mind (5th)
- Repelling Blast
- Sculptor of Flesh (7th)
- Sign of Ill Omen (5th)
- Thief of Five Fates
The situationals, the sub-par, the infrequently used.
- Beast Speech
- Eldritch Spear
- Minions of Chaos (9th)
- Visions of Distant Realms (15th)
- Voice of the Chain Master (Chain)
- Whispers of the Grave
The truly awful, often not good or obsolete even when you do get a chance to use it.
- Bewitching Whispers (7th)
- Dreadful Word (7th)
- Eyes of the Rune Keeper
- Gaze of Two Minds
- One with Shadows (5th)
- Otherworldy Leap (9th)
- Witch Sight (15th)
Now opinions vary of course, but I don't think I'm too far off here. You only get three Invocations whilst in Fiendish Vigours "sweet spot" of level 2-5 and eight over the entire course of your career. What are you giving up for it? One of the No.1 spots? Maybe, but I doubt it. One of the No.2's? More likely, but there's some tasty tasty goodness in that list.

I'm not saying Fiendish Vigour belongs in the dross of the Trap pile, but I'm not entirely convinced it's good enough to claw it's way out of the "Eh" category. There's too many other Invocations, both combat and non-combat orientated that are just...better. If Invocations weren't such a rare commodity, I'd think better of it, but 8 over 20 levels? That's a precious slot you don't want to waste with something that isn't all that impressive.

[Millstone85]

Now opinions vary of courseMine is that Pact of the Chain isn't complete without Voice of the Chain Master.
Do you want your tiny messenger-scout-spy or not?

[Tanarii]

- One with Shadows (5th)One with Shadows is amazing!

... provided you don't pay a lot of close attention to how it appears to be worded in a way that makes going invisible and hiding from being possible. Or at least, very difficult normally, and not possible in combat (when Hiding takes an action).

[coredump]

I would put Fiendish VIgor ahead of a number of your Nice Things choices. (And I also think Chain Master is all but required if you are a chainlock.)

And I disagree with the premise that FV isn't very useful after level 5..... its a pretty significant boost in HP throughout tier 2, and even a bit of tier 3.

[Captain Morgan]

You're only out of spell slots if you decided (or had) to burn them on the first fight. Warlocks have very few slots and can expect 2 or 3 encounters before getting to replenish them; they've got to be stingy.

As for comparisons, well, let's rack 'em and stack 'em:
Pretty much every Warlock wants these (if they can have them).
- Agonizing Blast
- Book of Ancient Secrets (Tome)
- Devil's Sight
- Misty Visions
- Thirsting Blade (Blade, 5th)
Not every Warlock wants them, but..they're nice.
- Armour of Shadows
- Ascendant Step (9th)
- Chains of Carceri (Chain, 15th)
- Eldritch Sight
- Lifedrinker (Blade, 12th)
- Mask of Many Faces
- Master of Myriad Forms (15th)
- Mire the Mind (5th)
- Repelling Blast
- Sculptor of Flesh (7th)
- Sign of Ill Omen (5th)
- Thief of Five Fates
The situationals, the sub-par, the infrequently used.
- Beast Speech
- Eldritch Spear
- Minions of Chaos (9th)
- Visions of Distant Realms (15th)
- Voice of the Chain Master (Chain)
- Whispers of the Grave
The truly awful, often not good or obsolete even when you do get a chance to use it.
- Bewitching Whispers (7th)
- Dreadful Word (7th)
- Eyes of the Rune Keeper
- Gaze of Two Minds
- One with Shadows (5th)
- Otherworldy Leap (9th)
- Witch Sight (15th)
Now opinions vary of course, but I don't think I'm too far off here. You only get three Invocations whilst in Fiendish Vigours "sweet spot" of level 2-5 and eight over the entire course of your career. What are you giving up for it? One of the No.1 spots? Maybe, but I doubt it. One of the No.2's? More likely, but there's some tasty tasty goodness in that list.

I'm not saying Fiendish Vigour belongs in the dross of the Trap pile, but I'm not entirely convinced it's good enough to claw it's way out of the "Eh" category. There's too many other Invocations, both combat and non-combat orientated that are just...better. If Invocations weren't such a rare commodity, I'd think better of it, but 8 over 20 levels? That's a precious slot you don't want to waste with something that isn't all that impressive.
Your solid choices list strikes me as off. Two of them are level dependent AND pact dependent, meaning only some Locks get them at all. Agonizing Blast is something everyone would like, but a Bladelock might choose to forgo because they want to commit to, you know, using their blade. (Which is admittedly sub optimal, but so is playing a Bladelock.) Devil's Sight is a waste before level 3 at minimum, and I don't bother with it when I play a chainlock who can see through an imp's eyes anyway. Misty Visions is awesome though.

And at a certain point, too much hoarding of slots translates to never getting to use them. While TomeLocks might be able to get away with this thanks to rituals and extra cantrips, and maybe chainlocks as well, I think the Bladelock really suffers if he isn't throwing out spells like Darkness, Armor of A, Mirror Image, Hellish Rebuke, etc. Bladelocks are also the best candidates for Fiendish Vigour. FV and Hellish Rebuke offers several distinct advantages over Armor of A. Archfey has no features flashing with FV, and even Dark One's Blessing can pair with it. After all, it doesn't kick in until you've actually killed something, at which point may have taken damage anyway.

Fiendish Vigour is definitely build dependent, but more than that I think what this debate is making me realize is that it's play style dependant. If you like playing the Lock as someone who is sneaky, subtle, and who plays it safe FV probably isn't a priority. If you like to leap into the fray and believe you should go hard or go home, FV offers a buffer for not dying.

[JellyPooga]

Your solid choices list strikes me as off. Two of them are level dependent AND pact dependent, meaning only some Locks get them at all.

The reason I include them there is that if you've gone for that Pact, you're almost certainly taking the Invocation to go with it. Not so much with Chain Pact and VotCM; the familiar alone is good and VotCM isn't so good that it's a complete shoe-in.


Agonizing Blast is something everyone would like, but a Bladelock might choose to forgo because they want to commit to, you know, using their blade. (Which is admittedly sub optimal, but so is playing a Bladelock.)

Answered your own comment there. I won't expand further! :smallbiggrin:


Devil's Sight is a waste before level 3 at minimum

I disagree. Devil's Sight + Darkness is a great, if somewhat cheesy/annoying, "trick" you can play but that's not the only purpose of it. Human, Halfling and Dragoborn Warlocks, particularly, might want DS just so they don't have to bother with light. In addition, Roguish or other sneaky types will enjoy being able to see in perfect darkness without penalty (something that ordinary Darkvision requires a Feat to do). A two level dip into Warlock, solely for that Invocation is a solid move for some.


And at a certain point, too much hoarding of slots translates to never getting to use them.

When you expect 2-3 encounters before getting to replenish, is it so hard to have a "1 spell per encounter, unless you don't think it's needed" rule? Break it if need be, but splurging both of your slots (for any Warlock pre-11th) on one fight and then complaining about being "underpowered" until the next rest is just as bad as a Wizard expending all his slots on the first two or three encounters and demanding a Long Rest because he's out of juice. Perhaps it was necessary to burn all your spells in one, but that was your choice.


Fiendish Vigour is definitely build dependent, but more than that I think what this debate is making me realize is that it's play style dependant.

Indeed and I will gladly admit to having a greater respect for it as a result of this conversation than I did previously. Not a lot greater...:smallbiggrin:

[Dalebert]

In addition, Roguish or other sneaky types will enjoy being able to see in perfect darkness without penalty (something that ordinary Darkvision requires a Feat to do). A two level dip into Warlock, solely for that Invocation is a solid move for some.

Thank you for making this point. A lot of people overlook this limitation on Darkvision. In total (normal) darkness, you have disadvantage on perception whereas Devil's Sight causes you to see normally. That means a rogue with DS sneaking in total darkness will have no penalties to see his enemies, but almost every darkness-dwelling monster will still have disadvantage on its perception making his stealth much more effective.

I actually make a point to bring this up to DMs when my monk is scouting ahead since most DMs won't think of it. That also means -5 to passive perceptions in the dark.

It's worth noting that Devil's Sight doesn't nothing in dim light whereas most racial Darkvision (but not the spell) makes you see without penalty, so if DS is all you have, you have no penalties in darkness but disadvantage in dim light. Crawford described it as "eerie" I believe and said it was intended to be that way.

[Tasuki]

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

I know that mystic arcanum grants a 6th, 7th, etc spell that can be cast once per long rest.

My question is, could you choose a lower level spell to fill that arcanum slot that would be set for the appropriate level? For example, could you fill your 11th level mystic arcanum with a level 6 Witch's Bolt (1st level spell)?

I only ask because for some of the arcanum choices, you only a choice of 4 spells, with only a couple being decent and most being very situational. It would be nice to know that your warlock might actually be different than anyone else's of the same pact. Actually have some flavour instead of having to pick the 'one obvious choice' per slot.

Thoughts?

[Aett_Thorn]

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

I know that mystic arcanum grants a 6th, 7th, etc spell that can be cast once per long rest.

My question is, could you choose a lower level spell to fill that arcanum slot that would be set for the appropriate level? For example, could you fill your 11th level mystic arcanum with a level 6 Witch's Bolt (1st level spell)?

I only ask because for some of the arcanum choices, you only a choice of 4 spells, with only a couple being decent and most being very situational. It would be nice to know that your warlock might actually be different than anyone else's of the same pact. Actually have some flavour instead of having to pick the 'one obvious choice' per slot.

Thoughts?

First off, this is quite the thread necro for this. You'd likely be better off just making a new post, usually.

Secondly, the Mystic Arcanum says that:


You can cast your arcanum spell once without expending a spell slot.

Since you're not using a spell slot to do it, you can't upcast a lower level spell.

[Vogie]

I'm not saying Fiendish Vigour belongs in the dross of the Trap pile, but I'm not entirely convinced it's good enough to claw it's way out of the "Eh" category. There's too many other Invocations, both combat and non-combat orientated that are just...better. If Invocations weren't such a rare commodity, I'd think better of it, but 8 over 20 levels? That's a precious slot you don't want to waste with something that isn't all that impressive.

It's effectively a first-level, self-cast Healing Word that also gives you 8 THP at the beginning of each fight.
While they are a rare commodity, they aren't universally available. Remember that:

Invocations can be swapped every time you level up in Warlock. These choices aren't permanent.
Many of the powerful ones have level requirements
Only Bladelocks use AoA, only Fiend Warlocks generate their own THP starting at level 1.
Celestial Warlocks also generate THP, but only at levels 10-onward

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please don't revive year-old threads. See the Forum Rules re: Thread Necromancy.