Dnd 3.5 - DM need help with last challenge

[Dlabuga]

Hello ppl.

The grp reach lvl20 and now they will face a group of enemys (important NPCs)

The grp:

Human Half fiend 15ranger/3scout swifthunter
Human 3bard/17paladin word of creation charism based
Human 20 wizard
Human 2fighter/1barb pounce variant/exotic wep master/11warblade/5bloodstorm blade
Human 20 paladin charism based
Human 7 cleric/3 prestigepaladin/10 fist of raziel charism based
Dwarf 20 cleric of moradin wisdom based
Dwarf 6fighter/3barb pounce variant/1 exotic weapon master/10 frenzied berserker
Kender 20 beguiler
Elf noldor half vampire ranger/scout/barb pounce/champion of corellon/swashbuckler CR22

Yes 10 dudes !!!

Atm they can pretty much smash anything... but i really want to put a hard challenge!

I got 5 NPCs.. they are part of the campaign history, lets see:

human Death Knight template fighter 3/ human paragon 1/ paladin red falcon variant 2/ ur priest 8/ human paragon 8/ blackguard 2/ fighter 1/ contemplative 2 ( war domain) charism based

Human savage bard 5/ human pragon 3/ 2 ur priest/ 2 sublime chord/ 8 mystic theurg/ 1 contemplative 1 (darkness domain)

Human wizard 13/ human paragon 3/ archmage 5

Human hexblade 20

Water orc 2 barb/3 orc paragon/ 4 fighter/ 1 exotic weapon master/ 10 frenzied

This is my first campaign... idk if its a good and hard challenge for them... the beguiler and wizard are the smart ones... they always have a solution from everything.

And have another NPC... but they only see this one in Noble suit, hes evil and cast arcane spells

I need some ideias and help

Yhx

[John Longarrow]

Need to know WHY the party is facing your challenge, what kind of challenge it is, and how you plan to run said challenge.

[GiantFlyingHog]

Look up Tucker's Kobolds if you something nasty to throw at them, but you might have to get a bit inventive with those.Don't be scared to be unrelentingly brutal. High level characters should be able to handle anything you can throw at them. Maybe drop them into Sphere of Annihilation. Maybe have them drop into a pit of size tiny torrasques. Make it so the solution may not just be to stab your enemy to death. Throw them into something they have to run away from. Or you could, you know, be nice, but you're on your own for that.

[Dlabuga]

Need to know WHY the party is facing your challenge, what kind of challenge it is, and how you plan to run said challenge.

Ok, lets see.

The Death Knight was created by Demongorgon, hes hunting the half-fiend one (ranger/scout), who`s the Orcus heir.
The Death Knight destroyed the elven village of Corellon, In which the Cleric/PrestigePaladin/Fist of Corellon lived... so these two PCs want revenge.

The Ur Priest/Sublime was the son of the counselor of a kingdom of elves, he assassinated his father and the king and began to govern. The king's son is the noldor elf PC.
Other people lived in this kingdom, the Wizard PC was part of the school of magic in which it was destroyed by the usurper.
There are rumors that he made contracts with some demons to take over the kingdom and for having turned some people into demons to serve him
Because of this, two Templars were sent to help the King's son ... they are followers of Heironeous and during their life ... they fought against evil forces of demons and performed some rituals / exorcism to remove this curse that turns people into demons.

The Wizard/Archmage works for a very powerful magician who has a great white tower ... there are rumors that inside that tower there is an answer to any question ... they say it has 100 floors and in the last you meet this magician.
To advance in the floors the PCs have to perform missions ... but the magician who gave these missions to the PCs was using them for evil acts and for their own benefit. The NPC Wizard / Archamge is following the orders of his master who wants to dominate the world. They are behind the black scrolls of Tulker and Ahm to open a portal that will bring all evil creatures from the abyss.
They delivered some parts of these scrolls to this mage during the missions and they discovered at the end everything that was happening ... in one of the adventures they were fortunate to find the hand of Vecna and ended up handing over to this wizard for gold.

The Orc was the destroyer of the dwarven realm of the two PCs (dwarfs) of the group ... they seek revenge and take their kingdom back ... within the dwarven realm were some parts of the black scrolls then everything interconnects.

The Hexblade was one of three banished sons of the north bor king ... he is the oldest brother of the PC Human 2fighter/1barb pounce variant/exotic wep master/11warblade/5bloodstorm blade, he wanted revenge against his father and his brothers ... the middle brother was capture... during the adventure he ended up killing his father and taking the king to himself, so the younger brother wants to take over the kingdom and banish the brother again.

its all.

EDIT: These NPCs have become strong and now they want to dominate all the realms involved ... DK no longer works for demongorgon and influences other NPCs for that purpose ... the only one who keeps his focus is the wizard, wanting to complete the plan Of his master.

Some things have already been retaken, such as the Kingdom of the Elves ... The kingdom of the Dwarves and the Northern Kingdom ... what remained was the fortress of the Death Knight where they are all reunited.

I intend to do this challenge in there ... in the main hall ... 20 squares by 40 squares .... 20 meters high


Look up Tucker's Kobolds if you something nasty to throw at them, but you might have to get a bit inventive with those.Don't be scared to be unrelentingly brutal. High level characters should be able to handle anything you can throw at them. Maybe drop them into Sphere of Annihilation. Maybe have them drop into a pit of size tiny torrasques. Make it so the solution may not just be to stab your enemy to death. Throw them into something they have to run away from. Or you could, you know, be nice, but you're on your own for that.

Well im new to this... so i think i need to follow the rules right? cuz if they ask something about anything i need a solid answer, im right? Like, how can ur NPC can do that etc etc

[Dlabuga]

Any ideias?

[Trebloc]

10 PCs against 5 NPCs and having it be a challenge is going to be difficult, as it is essentially 10 players against 1 DM.

How optimized are the PCs? At level 20, gear is going to play a big part, especially for the non-casters.

For the NPCs to make a game of it, they'll have to show up buffed to the gills, surprise round if they can manage it, and kill/neutralize PCs asap to even the odds. So walls or other barriers, save-or-suck/dies, or just straight up massive damage from a charging frenzied berserker. The NPCs seem light on the casting, so maybe bringing along some casting henchmen and other goons to help spread out the PC's offensive focus.

It appears the NPCs know about the PCs, so it's up to you to decide just how well they know them, and what weaknesses they'd know to exploit. Like hitting weak WILL saves and such.

Wearing the party out is also a solid option. Send in a number of mooks to drain the PC's resources a bit before the fully fresh NPCs join in several encounters later.

[Sheogoroth]

Make it a trap.

5 level 20s on one end of the room.

10 on the other.

Put a crystal in the center of a large room that saps 1 level from the PCs each round and gives it the NPCs. Doesn't matter if they're immune and the negative levels can't be removed unless they destroy the crystal.
By round 4, you've got 5 level 26es vs 10 17s.
Totally mismatched. So you're players are just getting swatted like flies until they destroy the crystal.

That's one idea anyway.

To be honest, I've never even heard of DMing 10 players at the same time, and doing it at level 20, that's like THIRTY actions per round not including NPCs! You are insane.

I would personally just break them up into 2 or 3 fights based on personal vendettas.

[John Longarrow]

OK, so you want to have a big fight in a small room between 10 PCs and 5 NPCs. PCs will own the smaller group due to action economy.

Still, WHY are the PCs going into this room? WHY are the NPCs fighting in here? There should be more motivation for this fight than "Lets rumble". If that's all it is, as soon as your NPC wizard goes he should time-stop then teleport his crew out. No reason to stand and fight when you are waaay out matched. You would need something in the room that justifies then hanging around to get pulped.

What reason do the NPCs have to fight here and now instead of retreating and hitting back when they are in a better position?

[Naez]

I DM a small group of 16th level gestalt characters. I don't even worry about killing them anymore. I just throw some of the weirdest unrelenting stuff at them I can. My personal favorite was a half Green Dragon War Troll accompanied by a band of various lycanthropes.

In your particular case though I'd start looking at low epic level creatures like titans or higher CRed dragons. A sect of tiamat worshiping dragons is a valid threat from anywhere from level 2-26 depnding on the type and age of dragon you're talking about.

[Enguebert]

10 PC vs 5 NPC, all around level 20 ?

First, any team with Wizard 20 has the possibility to withdraw group from fight
So you must have a reason WHY the group stay, even against bad odds. Maybe an powerful artifact to gain, or if you don't stop other group before 1 hour, something horrible happens

Second, action economy 10 vs 5 (and usually players have more options). It will be hard to challenge the players


Idea : make a chess game 8x8 chessboard
Terrain is magical, you cannot attack other square or cast spell on another square
Each player replace one of the master piece, 2 must replace 2 pawn.
Each of the vilain replace one of the master piece. Add 3 monsters to replace some pieces.
Basic pawns are replaced by a "weak monster" (something CR 10 for example)

Players and DM play chess normally. When normally one piece "kill" another, you don't automatically win
Either the 2 pieces are teleported in a small arena. There they fight 1 vs 1. Either up to death, or fight 3 or 5 rounds.
If one piece is killed, it is removed from the chessboard. If neither killed the other, both pieces stay on the chessboard at their original place


That means you will have short fight 1 vs 1. If you want to cast buff on allies or heal allies, players have to waste a chess move to initiate a fight between 2 of them, where they just buff
Advantage of players : they have more CR20 pieces
Disadvantage : it is always 1 vs 1

The players will have to choose wich piece move, and play chess
Goal is to kill the king. They also have to be smart to choose fights (for example don't send a mage vs a beholder, but better to send a fighter,...)

[Dlabuga]

The Wizard npc knows everything about the PCs, in the beginning they made a pact with this magician ... a pact of blood ... this pact makes the magician can see and hear what the pc is doing all the time .. When they discovered this ... they tried in various ways to destroy this pact, but they did not succeed ... so NPCs know everything about PCs ...

The reason for this battle is simple ... the NPCs were able to gather the black scrolls that were divided into 5 parts ... when they perform the ritual a portal will be opened, this portal will join two planes .... the material and the Abyssal for 30 days ... any person or creature can transit between these plans.

Pcs want to prevent this from happening ... and kill their archenemys.

NOTE: About my grp
All are new except for 3 of them ... the beguiler, the bard/paladin and the elf noldor.
They helped the other guys to make powerfull characters...yes they are all optimized...gear around 900k-1kk...
But new players always forget some crucial things ... like spells ... class skills ... etc

and yes 10 players vs 1 DM It's really difficult, I always end up with headaches.

NPCs got more gear - I'm using practically all the non-epic possible items in them ... they must have practically 1.5kk -1.8kk Custom items

the DK fullbuff is practically immortal ... he has CA 88 - touch 66, saves around 35+...507HP... Atk:52/47/42/37/52 - Damage: hes using Sword of Kas: 1d8+13 str + 5 weapon + 5 collision + 3 divine favor + 7 bard song + 15 divine might + 9 holly warrior = 1d8+57 - I'm not counting Sadism/Masochism for power attack - undead type.

I got my own crafting system: Any player can create their own items ... not all but some types ... they spend their XP to create and must agree with other players to create what they do not know

Masterwork method to create armor/weapons

i created like guides - hard to find and very expensive atm i just gave to them two of each

Creation guide of weapons, Creation guide of armors, Creation guide of rods, Creation guide of staffs, Creation guide of wondrous items, Creation guide of rings, Creation guide of potions and oils.

they need gold + exp + create level to make items.

create level = 1d20 + int mod. - need to reach the caster level of the item to create it. - if they fail - they lose 1/4 of the material and XP

I liked the idea of the crystal and chess ... I'm gonna check it.
And drain the PC's resources a bit before

and sorry about my english =D

[John Longarrow]

Do your evil NPCs NEED to stay in the room to use the scrolls?

Do your evil NPCs NEED to stay in the room for another reason?

Trying to figure out why they would stay and fight when they know what the PCs are doing all the time.

Course if they know where the PCs, the evil casters could arrange to continually drop summoned creatures on them before the fight to use up party resources. 10 castings of summon monster IX (from scrolls) would give them some combat ability for a few rounds to hopefully use up party spells.

[Dlabuga]

Do your evil NPCs NEED to stay in the room to use the scrolls?

Do your evil NPCs NEED to stay in the room for another reason?

no, but in my opinion they should do that in a safe place.


Trying to figure out why they would stay and fight when they know what the PCs are doing all the time.

Because the PCs want to face them so much...and I'm avoing it for so long...maybe its time to fight.

during the campaign i put just one or two to face them...noy using full force... so i party out just to make them feel like "damm these &^%%$ scaped again"

[Deophaun]

The reason for this battle is simple ... the NPCs were able to gather the black scrolls that were divided into 5 parts ... when they perform the ritual a portal will be opened, this portal will join two planes .... the material and the Abyssal for 30 days ... any person or creature can transit between these plans.
Umm... yay? There's already plane shift, and portals are everywhere if you know where to look.

See, you've got the basic solution to the problem right there: they can call reinforcements from the Abyss. The problem is, that apparently only happens when the ritual is completed. But the ritual is underwhelming for a 20th-level event. So, if it is not too late, instead of a portal, have the ritual make the Material and the Abyss coterminous; Hell on Earth, as it were. Further, make that happen gradually instead of as a single event, tied to something like the rising of the moon or eclipse of the sun. The ritual can still be disrupted, but the Abyss (and thus demonic reinforcements) can start to leak in at the beginning of the fight and ramp up as the fight progresses.

This also solves the problem of why the heck the villains didn't just skedaddle when the party showed up: the ritual is already in progress and working.