Optimize this weapon 2: Caber from Masters of the Wild

[daremetoidareyo]

Here is the weapon description:
A caber is a heavy pole that you can throw at one or more targets grouped closely together. To throw a caber, you must target a 10-foot-square area and hit AC 15. Success means that everyone in the target area must make a Reflex save (DC = your attack roll) or move 5 feet backward. If a creature or object in the target area is incapable of movement, it takes 2d6 points of damage. The caber is normally used for breaking up military formations.

Is your attack roll inclusive of your BAB?

Answer: From players handbook p.305:
attack roll: A roll to determine whether an attack hits. To make an attack roll, roll 1d20 and add the appropriate modifiers for the attack type, as follows: melee attack roll = 1d20 + base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier; ranged attack roll = 1d20 + base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty. In either case, the attack hits if the result is at least as high as the target’s Armor Class.

Lasso (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507609-Optimize-this-weapon-1-Lasso-from-BOED-p34&p=21442311#post21442311)

[Jormengand]

Creatures don't have facings, so you may be able to decide where "Backward" is.

If a creature in the area can't move, all of their equipment will take 2d6 damage too because that can't move from the position it's in.

[Darrin]

The reason I suggested a closer look at this weapon... the damage is set by the weapon description rather than by the weapon table. That means it does 2d6 damage regardless of the size of the caber. So under a somewhat obtuse RAW interpretation, you could throw a bunch of toothpick-sized cabers at a 10' square and still do 2d6 damage whenever your opponent fails the Ref save.

Now that I'm reading back through it again... there's another quirk to it:



Success means that everyone in the target area must make a Reflex save (DC = your attack roll) or move 5 feet backward. If a creature or object in the target area is incapable of movement, it takes 2d6 points of damage.


Now, there may be an argument that no creature is capable of moving outside of their turn, so the Ref save is pointless and the 2d6 damage should be automatic, but the more plausible interpretation is that a successful Ref save allows the 5' move. And that could be useful if you want to move an ally out of a square, but it isn't currently their turn or they have to use all their actions for something else. A Scout could also use this on himself... make a 5' step, throw a caber into his own square, make the Ref save for another 5' of movement, and now Skirmish damage is active. Need more movement? Throw more cabers at yourself.

But let's try to play this straight and, assuming the 5' move is allowed by the Ref save, let's take a closer look at that "incapable of movement" thing. Difficult terrain comes to mind, but it's not really clear how that would work here. Difficult terrain requires double movement, and you can't move 2.5' and still change your square, but there's nothing really explicit here that the 5' move would be prevented by difficult terrain. If the DM says yes, well then heck yeah throw down some entangles, ice slicks or impeding stones. Some other methods to prevent movement or immobilize your opponent:


Nets, lassos, and harpoons prevent your opponent from moving back, presumably with a successful Str check.
Tanglefoot bags explicitly say "unable to move" if the target fails the Ref save.
Hold person. A "halt" from command should also work.
Wall spells cast behind your enemy's line. If you don't have a wall spell handy, a silent image spell can create a wall or pit behind your opponent. Good use for wall of smoke (save vs. nausea) or a vertical dark way.
Stone Vise (Stone Dragon 2) or Crushing Vice (Stone Dragon 6) reduces your opponent's movement to zero for 1 round. Deepstone Sentinel's Stone Curse can also reduce movement to zero after a melee hit and a failed Will save.
If your opponent is moving out of a threatened square, they provoke an AoO. If your opponent can avoid AoOs for some reason (Tumbling, let's say), Thicket of Blades might trump that.
If you've already hit your opponent with the Stand Still feat, then presumably they can't move 5' backward.
Prone opponents... should not be able to move back 5', although the rules aren't clear here, as they are not technically immobile... they can crawl 5' as a full-round, but I don't think that's what was intended by the caber text. So knock 'em down first with trip attacks and then bring out the caber.
Stunned and dazed opponents... that's another head-scratcher, as they can't legally take move actions, but are not considered immobile or helpless. You may need a DM's Call on this.

[daremetoidareyo]

aptitude caber + tormtor school is amazing! What do you think the melee damage on limbless tree is?

[Temotei]

No size limit is nice.

[daremetoidareyo]

I just thought that I would point out that 3.5 does have facing rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/combatFacing.htm

[Deadline]

aptitude caber + tormtor school is amazing! What do you think the melee damage on limbless tree is?

It's an improvised weapon, so you'd determine damage by weight. The rules are in Complete Warrior.

For a normal Caber, it weighs 100lbs, so 3d6 damage striking as an improvised weapon.

[daremetoidareyo]

It's an improvised weapon, so you'd determine damage by weight. The rules are in Complete Warrior.

For a normal Caber, it weighs 100lbs, so 3d6 damage striking as an improvised weapon.

I think a diopsid 2wf build is in order...

[Vaz]

I just thought that I would point out that 3.5 does have facing rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/combatFacing.htm
Anything that isn't an ACF should be looked at with vast stinkeye from unearthed arcana. It is mostly garbage and massovely unbalanced.

Nearest I came to it is Gestalt because it doesn't gimp anyone, and giving some people bonus feats based on having been targeted by spells (as well as coming up with new ones); until it got to the downtime stage when the players started raiding their prepared caster lists and magic marts for cool spells which they would survive and get some possible cool benefits.

[Deadline]

I think a diopsid 2wf build is in order...

That seems like it would kill your ability to hit anything.

-4 Improvised Weapon
-4/-4 Two Weapon Fighting (or -6/-10 without the feat)

-8 to hit is a pretty big penalty for very little return.

[daremetoidareyo]

That seems like it would kill your ability to hit anything.

-4 Improvised Weapon
-4/-4 Two Weapon Fighting (or -6/-10 without the feat)

-8 to hit is a pretty big penalty for very little return.

aptitude cabres with tormtor school, only -4

[Deadline]

aptitude cabres with tormtor school, only -4

Uhh, that isn't how the aptitude weapon property works? It doesn't let you wield one weapon as if it were a different weapon, it lets you use feats for a specific weapon with the aptitude weapon.

So you'd suffer the -4 Improvised penalty for using a caber as an improvised melee weapon, and the -4/-4 penalties for two weapon fighting with the TWF feat and no light off-hand weapon. And Aptitude would let you then throw the Caber after making a melee attack with it, as per the Tormtor school feat.

Or am I missing something?

Edit - Ah, missed the bit at the bottom of the Tormtor school feat that states you don't take a penalty for using a javelin in melee. I think that aptitude should apply there, so that would eliminate the Improvised bit.

It still seems like too much penalty for too little return, but at least it's neat.

[Blackhawk748]

Nab Through Anything, neatly solves the non proficiency penalty.

[daremetoidareyo]

Uhh, that isn't how the aptitude weapon property works? It doesn't let you wield one weapon as if it were a different weapon, it lets you use feats for a specific weapon with the aptitude weapon.

So you'd suffer the -4 Improvised penalty for using a caber as an improvised melee weapon, and the -4/-4 penalties for two weapon fighting with the TWF feat and no light off-hand weapon. And Aptitude would let you then throw the Caber after making a melee attack with it, as per the Tormtor school feat.

Or am I missing something?

Edit - Ah, missed the bit at the bottom of the Tormtor school feat that states you don't take a penalty for using a javelin in melee. I think that aptitude should apply there, so that would eliminate the Improvised bit.

It still seems like too much penalty for too little return, but at least it's neat.

Also, you can potentially use your martial weapon proficiency in any of your other weapons to apply to the caber as well... and maybe you want to perhaps apply your boomerang feats to the melee & thrown attacks from each hand...aptitude enchantment is awesome... That's kinda feat intensive...Let me stub it out:

Diopside
1: Ranger 1: Exotic weapon proficiency (talenta boomerang)
2: Ranger 2: TWF
3: hit and run fighter 1: Point blank shot, Weapon focus (Javelin)
4: Fighter 2: Boomerang ricochet
5: Zhentarim Fighter 3:
6: Fighter 4: Tormtor school, boomerang daze
7:Fighter 5:
8:Fighter 6: rapid shot
9: Lion totem ferocity barbarian 1: pounce, feat

@ level 9, primary hand caber you attack in melee in primary hand at a +3+str bonus +1 (weapon focus),
Tormtor school kicks in: throw at +3+dex bonus +1 WF +1 PBS,
boomerang it at +3 +dex bonus +1 WF +1 PBS -2(boomerang)
Attack in melee in primary hand at a -2 +str bonus +1 (weapon focus),
Attack in melee again with secondary hand, +3+str bonus +1 (weapon focus)
Rapid shot one of them at +3 +dex bonus +1 WF +1 PBS
boomerang it at +3 +dex bonus +1 WF +1 PBS -2(boomerang)

[Deadline]

Nab Through Anything, neatly solves the non proficiency penalty.

The issue here isn't throwing them, it's using them as melee weapons. Throw Anything won't help.

@dare, I don't think the boomerang feats would apply. Seems a bit sketchy due to the nature of the Cabers rules for throwing.

[daremetoidareyo]

The issue here isn't throwing them, it's using them as melee weapons. Throw Anything won't help.

@dare, I don't think the boomerang feats would apply. Seems a bit sketchy due to the nature of the Cabers rules for throwing.

If I can find a way to fit another weapon focus and exotic weapon proficiency, we can add the wind and fire feat too, giving us a nice bleed score. Can do it by level 12.

Why wouldn't the boomerang feats work, we're talking about 3 aptitude caber+1s. They literally bounce off the ground, and hitting a second set of adjacent squares actually makes thematic sense.

It when we add stone power feat to get a rend attack that things have gone terribly wrong.

-----

Another idea is to be a soulknife 5/warblade1 with dwarven urgrosh mindblade feat at 6th level. Use warblades aptitude to put caber on your list of mindblade shapes...and then you don't need to carry cabers around.

Plus, that gives you exotic weapon pro in cabers, soulknife gives you weapon focus mindblade, and quickdraw, so hurling charge is an option. Psycarnum blade is a good idea.

[Jormengand]

Come to think of it, there's nothing stopping a rogue sneak attacking with the caber, so long as your enemy is within 30 feet of you and is immobile.

Also, there are some interesting things that trigger when an enemy moves. You can potentially push people into and out of a wall of fire or an energy wall.

In pathfinder, Improved Snap Shot lets you threaten 10 feet away with a ranged weapon, allowing you to move an incoming charger out of the range where they can attack you. 3.0's peerless archer may also be able to do this (by threatening with the bow and making the actual attack with the caber, or somehow wielding a weapon which is both a bow and a caber). Ranged Threat from Dragon 350 lets you do this 15 feet away, so even reach weapon users will be knocked straight out of their incoming charge. Arrow mind (spell compendium p15-16) lets you do this with a 5 ft threatened area; you may be better off readying an action to knock them out of range, and then using the AoO they provoke from that as your real attack for the round.

An easy way to prevent enemies moving is the first-level reversed inertia surge utterance, which can be obtained with a feat (minor utterance of the evolving mind) even if you're not a truenamer. Good luck actually uttering it of you're not one (though truename training allows you to act as though truespeak were always a class skill). The nice thing about this is that it has no save, so if you can make the (admittedly quite hard) truespeak check, you're golden.

So, suppose we go with truenamer 9, we can lap up quicken utterance, item familiar for the truespeak check, two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting, point blank shot and rapid shot (by using two flaws). We then dual-wield small cabers, taking a -8 penalty on attack rolls but still being able to manage if we buff ourselves up with Knight's Puissance and Greater Speed of the Zephyr. We then spam our 7 attacks (2 mainhand, 2 offhand, 1 mainhand from rapid shot, 1 offhand from rapid shot, 1 from haste) and due to the static AC, we hit about half of the full-BAB attacks and a quarter of the iteratives (+6 from BAB, +4 from DEX, +3 from buffs, -8 from penalties is a total of 5, needing 10 to hit) which is pretty much exactly 3 hits. Each of those hits deals 2d6 damage to the immobile creature (who we stop from "Mov out of the square they currently occupy" as a swift action) and all of their stuff ("If a creature [I]or object in the area is incapable of moving"). Let's go through:

"A ring has AC 13, 2 hit points, hardness 10, and a break DC of 25." - could easily be destroyed with a couple of fairly lucky rolls or one very lucky roll.
"The vial has AC 13, 1 hit point, hardness 1, and a break DC of 12." I can't fail to smash all your potions if I hit at all.
"A typical wand has AC 7, 5 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 16." Your wands are almost certainly in for it.
"These sturdy items have AC 9, 10 hit points, hardness 10, and a break DC of 27." But your rods will be fine!
"A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8." Scrolls are down.
"It has AC 7, 10 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 24." I'd have to be lucky to break a staff.
"Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort." Your cloaks, capes, and goggles are all screwed, then. Also, a lot of clothing, backpacks, and weapons which are made primarily of wood such as lances and bows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#smashinganObject) are pretty much in for it. Your short sword is in peril too.

Of course, the truenamer can also buff herself with Strike of Might so that she deals 2d6+10 damage with the first of her attacks which hits, which simply will destroy anything short of a staff (which may be left clinging to its last 3 hit points), a rod (which could potentially do quite well for itself), a decent-sized metal weapon, decent armour, or any walls you may be hefting around you.

To add insult to injury, the only good way to repair destroyed magical items? Truenamer. Unfortunately, truenamers can only fix magic items within 1 round of them breaking, but that can be cheated around: using Make Whole (you'll need a friend to cast that) on the items, smashing them with a hammer, and then fixing them within 1 round of the second time they break returns them to the normal, undamaged state they were in before the first time they broke. You also need to be a higher level, but that's just an excuse to have a higher BAB and make more of your shots hit!

tl;dr truenamers can break all your gear and then remake it for their own use once you're dead.

[Deadline]

Why wouldn't the boomerang feats work, we're talking about 3 aptitude caber+1s. They literally bounce off the ground, and hitting a second set of adjacent squares actually makes thematic sense.

Boomerang Daze specifically states that the effects only apply to the target creature. You don't target creatures with a Caber, you target a square.

Boomerang Ricochet should work though, given how it is worded.

I also think that sneak attack wouldn't apply, because again you aren't targeting a creature with the Caber.

[daremetoidareyo]

-----

Another idea is to be a soulknife 5/warblade1 with dwarven urgrosh mindblade feat at 6th level. Use warblades aptitude to put caber on your list of mindblade shapes...and then you don't need to carry cabers around.

Plus, that gives you exotic weapon pro in cabers, soulknife gives you weapon focus mindblade, and quickdraw, so hurling charge is an option. Psycarnum blade is a good idea.

human
Hidden talent Soulknife 5: bonus: weapon focus mindblade, bonus: hidden talent sense link, 1st level: burrowing power, human bonus: split psionic ray (rays count as weapons...) 3: animal cohort
Warblade 1: 6:Urgrosh mindblade

You can add cabers to your mindblade shapes, spend 2 power points to split them (you gonna need a source of PP from gear), and, if necessary, throw giant logs through walls that you've sent your sparrow/hummingbird cohort to investigate...

[Jormengand]

I also think that sneak attack wouldn't apply, because again you aren't targeting a creature with the Caber.

No, actually, that's even dirtier: the sneak attack deals extra damage whenever the target would be denied its DEX bonus to AC, such as when it's unaware of the rogue because it's a square. It doesn't only deal extra damage to the target, though - it simply deals extra damage. This means that all attacks with the caber against a square within 30 feet are sneak attacks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Doing a flat 2d6 damage isn't very exciting; it's the Reflex Save DC=attack roll that jumps out at me-- that's going to be really hard to hit for most builds/monsters, I'd think. Are there good ways to lay a rider effect on that part of the attack?

[Deepbluediver]

No, actually, that's even dirtier: the sneak attack deals extra damage whenever the target would be denied its DEX bonus to AC, such as when it's unaware of the rogue because it's a square. It doesn't only deal extra damage to the target, though - it simply deals extra damage. This means that all attacks with the caber against a square within 30 feet are sneak attacks.
I'd like to see the Move Silently/Hide check necessary to sneak up on someone while lugging a 20-ft long log. :smallbiggrin:

[Jormengand]

I'd like to see the Move Silently/Hide check necessary to sneak up on someone while lugging a 20-ft long log. :smallbiggrin:

But the point is that the target - that is, the square you're aiming at - is the only thing that needs to be unaware of you, not the actual creatures you deal damage to.

[Deadline]

No, actually, that's even dirtier: the sneak attack deals extra damage whenever the target would be denied its DEX bonus to AC, such as when it's unaware of the rogue because it's a square. It doesn't only deal extra damage to the target, though - it simply deals extra damage. This means that all attacks with the caber against a square within 30 feet are sneak attacks.

That particular interpretation requires a great deal of squinting and head tilting to even resemble correct.

Aside from the rather obvious issue, there are a few things that can also be applied:

1. A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

2. Precision damage requires an attack roll to apply. The same rules that prevent sneak attack damage from affecting the splash damage from grenade weapons would also prevent the sneak attack from applying to the damage from the thrown Caber.

[daremetoidareyo]

Enchant your caber with the exit wound enchantment (or use a mindblade gauntlet to make your caber shaped mindblade...)

[Jormengand]

That particular interpretation requires a great deal of squinting and head tilting to even resemble correct.

Aside from the rather obvious issue, there are a few things that can also be applied:

1. A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

2. Precision damage requires an attack roll to apply. The same rules that prevent sneak attack damage from affecting the splash damage from grenade weapons would also prevent the sneak attack from applying to the damage from the thrown Caber.

The sneak attack is attacking the creatures even if you're trying to hit the square, and there is an attack roll being made.

[Deadline]

The sneak attack is attacking the creatures even if you're trying to hit the square, and there is an attack roll being made.

Yes, and an attack roll is being made with a grenade weapon, it still doesn't apply the sneak attack to the splash damage.

Also, you can't perform a sneak attack on a chunk of ground (unless the ground is somehow a living creature with a discernible anatomy), as per my earlier quote. So the attack wouldn't have the sneak attack damage applied.

Also, the silliness involved with your interpretation, but you knew that already. :smalltongue:

Still, that's the kind of thinking needed to optimize this weapon I think, even if this particular reading doesn't work out.

To go along with this line of thinking, could we use the Caber for any of the ranged combat feats/maneuvers in the Heroes of Battle book? What about interactions with the Master Thrower PrC?

[Deadline]

Enchant your caber with the exit wound enchantment (or use a mindblade gauntlet to make your caber shaped mindblade...)

Does that enchantment require you to target the enemy, or does it apply whenever you damage them with it? We'd need the latter for it to be beneficial I think.

Edit - Herp a derp, double post. Sorry about that.

[Deepbluediver]

But the point is that the target - that is, the square you're aiming at - is the only thing that needs to be unaware of you, not the actual creatures you deal damage to.
That...seems kind of ridiculous. It sounds like your saying someone can watch you coming at them with half a tree, and it will STILL count as a sneak attack? I feel like most GMs would veto that one pretty quick.

I will concede, however, that watching someone charge into battle with a caber as a weapon would be pretty surprising.

[danzibr]

I now want to make a Goliath Rogue chucking gigantic logs to SA people.

[daremetoidareyo]

Does that enchantment require you to target the enemy, or does it apply whenever you damage them with it? We'd need the latter for it to be beneficial I think.

Edit - Herp a derp, double post. Sorry about that.

Exit wound is from com warrior
Exit Wound
Weapons with the exit wound ability propel their ammunition entirely through living targets they hit. This effect deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. The weapon or projectile continues in a straight line beyond the original target. Targets in that path are attacked using the same attack roll as the original target; these additional targets gain a +4 bonus to AC for each previous target in the path. When an exit wound weapon or projectile hits an object, it stops. The exit wound ability can be applied to any ranged weapon; projectile weapons so enhanced bestow the ability on their ammunition.

You can roll through a phalanx....

Also, brutal strike is pretty phenominal, you can sicken your foes with your caber...