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Druid_lord
2007-07-19, 03:30 PM
I was wondering how a dragon PC would work. Would it be able to have class levels, specifically for its humanoid alternate forms. in its alternate form does it still have natural armor and can it use its breath weapon? overall would it be able to work as a PC? i was thinking of a young or juvinile silver dragon.

Damionte
2007-07-19, 03:52 PM
Draconomicon, Races Of The Dragon & dragon Magic all detail exactly how to do this. Especially Draconomicon, & Races Of The Dragon.

To be more specific, Draconomicon, has rules for playing True Dragons as PC's.

Races of the Dragon has the rules on Dragon like races. Half Dragons, Kobols, anything related to dragons that are not themselves dragons.

Dragon Magic has rules for incorporating dragonic geritage like, dragon like magic in non dragon raced PC's.

Luircin
2007-07-19, 04:25 PM
Draconomicon, definitely. Dragon magazine also put out issues with dragon "classes."

I recently went through a campaign with a wyrmling brass dragon barbarian, who had been abducted from her parents as an egg. She rolled terrible on her Int stat and so I role-played that her egg had been damaged as she was abducted, stunting her mental growth.

I took the Multiattack/Rapidstrike trees (and would have taken the pounce variant if Complete Champion had been out. I tried to get claws of the leapord, but by the time I could afford them, the game was over), role-playing the rage as a tantrum by a child who didn't understand her own strength (Or understand death, but that's another story entirely). It was funny to have a creature just a little larger than a cat being stronger than most of the other party members AND being the party tank. She didn't do nearly as much damage as a straight barbarian of equivilant level, but her sleep breath and her fly speed still offered more options than the typical "run up and hit it." I considered it an even trade-off.

If you're going for a silver dragon, I cannot stress the Heighten Breath feat (Augmented with Ability Focus if you wish) enough, especially if you plan to take several dragon hit dice. Your paralyzing breath is your win button, because your cold breath will never advance quite enough to be consequential.



I've also GMed for a dragon character before, and all you need to do is remember that, with that LA, the dragon is often not much more than a melee combatant. However, you just need to remember that flying will be easily available to the party, and if the PC is a metallic dragon, that the alternate breath weapon is often save-or-lose or save-or-suck.

Luircin
2007-07-19, 04:30 PM
I was wondering how a dragon PC would work. Would it be able to have class levels, specifically for its humanoid alternate forms. in its alternate form does it still have natural armor and can it use its breath weapon? overall would it be able to work as a PC? i was thinking of a young or juvinile silver dragon.


Alternate form, quoted from the SRD.


Alternate Form
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form.
The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

So, no natural armor, no breath weapons, and your physical stats will fall to the average for the race. The alternate form will be used primarily for fitting in, not combat. But you WILL still keep your dragon hit points, saves, and BAB, so that's something...

It's usable as a PC, as I just showed. You just have to make sure that your GM will allow it. Some will, some won't.

Person_Man
2007-07-19, 04:31 PM
I own Draconomicon and RotD, and I've DM'd a game with a Dragon PC. It was a massive hassle, because the PC didn't want to try and hide his true nature via illusions or whatnot. They couldn't just walk into a tavern or negotiate with the local prince - townsfolk were constantly running away, random bounty hunters were trying to kill him, everyone was amazed at his presence, he constantly got more stage time then the other PCs, etc. Eventually I just ended the campaign - it wasn't worth the energy to essentially write a choose your own adventure novel for 1 player while everyone else was just tagging along.

My suggestion is to avoid it unless your DM doesn't have a job. Or if you do decide to go with a dragon, have the courtesy to use Alter Self to make yourself into a dragonwraught kobold, and act normal.

Druid_lord
2007-07-19, 04:44 PM
i do not have the Draconomicon but one of my friends does so i have access to it. but still, any suggestions on how to manage classe levels and such would be appreciated. and I would only keep my true form in combat or in isolated areas. when in or near towns and such, i would use alternate form.

SilverClawShift
2007-07-19, 04:48 PM
I played a true gold dragon in a campaign, but by the time I turned into a true dragon, we were in epic levels, so it didn't break the balance, it just re-worked it.

It's a long story, but it has to do with me being rejected by Bahamut, our party doing a favor for a a low-level semi-deity who granted us all wishes, and my quest to become an immortal draconic god in order to slay Bahamut and Tiamat and become the top-dog of dragon kind.

When my party plays epic, we really freaking play epic.

Anyway, younger dragons probably wouldn't be as bad, but they're still darn powerful. I don't know what the rules are for dragons progressing as sorcerers, because they're supposed to get sorcerous power BY AGE, not by class, so you could conceivably have a barbarian dragon that could cast sorcerer spells by virtue of being alive.

Luircin
2007-07-19, 05:38 PM
I own Draconomicon and RotD, and I've DM'd a game with a Dragon PC. It was a massive hassle, because the PC didn't want to try and hide his true nature via illusions or whatnot. They couldn't just walk into a tavern or negotiate with the local prince - townsfolk were constantly running away, random bounty hunters were trying to kill him, everyone was amazed at his presence, he constantly got more stage time then the other PCs, etc. Eventually I just ended the campaign - it wasn't worth the energy to essentially write a choose your own adventure novel for 1 player while everyone else was just tagging along.

My suggestion is to avoid it unless your DM doesn't have a job. Or if you do decide to go with a dragon, have the courtesy to use Alter Self to make yourself into a dragonwraught kobold, and act normal.


How old WAS this dragon PC that you had? When I played one, I found that the best way to avoid attention (outside of mage-o-phobic areas, at least) was to pretend to be the arcane caster's familiar or the druid's animal companion. Then again, my PC <i>was</i> the size of a cat, so I wasn't very intimidating and very easy to hide...

Superglucose
2007-07-19, 11:52 PM
I own Draconomicon and RotD, and I've DM'd a game with a Dragon PC. It was a massive hassle, because the PC didn't want to try and hide his true nature via illusions or whatnot.
That seems like a problem with the player not the concept.

Dragon PCs are very plausible, especially since even the MM gives level adjustments. But like Person_Man said, DEFINITLEY use alter form to at least give off the representation of being humanoid. You have plenty of uses per day. I played a Paladin with a dragon mount (not the same I know), but I told my DM that unless I was gonig to ride the dragon into battle (and holy hell... you know when you're dealing with immature players when they can't stay in their seats when you mention that you 'mount the dragon') and unless I specifically said otherwise, that my dragon would be staying in humanoid form.

And it could be a good RP gimmick too, the dragon that was raised away from dragons and so wants to pretend he/she isn't a dragon. I've never seen that one before...

Person_Man
2007-07-20, 09:30 AM
That seems like a problem with the player not the concept.

I agree. It was also back in the day when 3.5 rules first came out, so we were still getting a handle on them.

But for some reason, in EVERY gaming group there's always that guy who wants to play a bizarre race, usually something that's a very bad idea to play (Lich, Lycanthrope, Treant, etc). So my knee jerk reaction is to groan whenever someone wants to play a non-PC race. However I'll be the first to admit that if you're mature about it and don't flaunt your dragonhood, it should be a fun experience.

the_tick_rules
2007-07-20, 11:12 AM
it'd be an interesting experience, dragons are so powerful, but since dragons take centuries to get to full power the other pc's will be dead of old age by the time your dragon matures.

nerulean
2007-07-20, 12:01 PM
A dragon PC was without a doubt one of the most fun characters I've played to date; a gold dragon paladin, no less. While all the PCs in the party were dragons and we used the DM's homebrew rules for advancement, so I can't help you out with the mechanics, I will wholeheartedly endorse the idea. Have fun with it, I know we did. :smallwink:

Username
2007-07-20, 04:02 PM
Dragons as PCs are crippled by unfairly inflated LA, as are most monster races. The advantages are that compared to many, dragons have it pretty good. Dragon hit dice are some of the best and you get some pretty handy stat boosts.

Sadly, if you want to make the best of your breath weapon, you might as well give up on pure damage breath weapons, a dragonfire adept will outperform you utterly. The best bet for breath weapon focus is to play either a Shadow or Pyroclastic Dragon, the former inflicting negative levels and the latter having a save or be disintegrated breath weapon (and large size quite early on, along with some massive strength, also, immunity to fire AND sonic with no vulnerability!). Metallic dragon secondary breath weapons also work.

I'll copy/paste a build I wrote up earlier on how to achieve what I have nicknamed Mr. Incinerator:

A progression for this would no doubt be fairly easy to write out, as it only really requires 2 feats and the progression is linear through the entire time (all Pyroclastic Dragon HD), as such I will simply write what it should roughly look like at ECL 20.

Stats done with 28 point-buy. Stats allocated for a melee monster, points could be moved from strength to wisdom, intelligence, or charisma for a more intelligent character. All level up bonuses allocated to Con, these stats also reflect a +5 item and +5 inherit bonus via manual/wishes.

Young Pyroclastic Dragon (ECL 20)

HD 14D12+182 (266)

Str:30(+10)
Dex:10(+0)
Con:37(+13)
Int:10(+0)
Wis:10(+0)
Cha:10(+0)

I won't go into detail about anything other than the breath weapon DC pumpage, as how you wish to set up this character's melee is personal preference.

This character will take both the heighten breath metabreath feat and the ability focus (breath weapon)* feat. Quicken breath is also useful and recommended. Also favorable are metabreath feats to increase the area and change the shape of your disintegrating breath.

*I am unsure if this applies to both modes of breath weapon or just one, if it is only 1 mode, this applies to the disintegrating one

Breath weapon save to avoid disintegration:
Fort save (to not disintegrate when hit by the breath, I imagine a reflex save is probably also still offered to dodge it.)
10+7+13+2=base DC of 32
if you want to ensure that your opponent fries, you use heighten breath a whopping 13 times to boost the save DC to 45, you can also quicken breath to make this a free action. (this will of course render you incapable of using your breath weapon for 1D4+13 rounds, if you're only using heighten)

Assuming a 20 is not counted an automatic success, a character who rolls 20 will need a +25 reflex or fort save to survive. You can always fly away and try again later if your opponents got lucky the first try, too.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now then, I'm sure there are a lot of methods with which this save DC can be pushed even higher that I am not aware of, so feel free to point out any that I may have missed!

Druid_lord
2007-07-20, 04:15 PM
i haven't got a rsponse from my friend yet, can anyone send me the info from the draconomnicon on how to be a true dragon PC?

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-20, 05:43 PM
Erm, for the love of god could you please put those great big pictures in a spoiler?

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-20, 09:27 PM
Dragons as PCs are crippled by unfairly inflated LA, as are most monster races. The advantages are that compared to many, dragons have it pretty good. Dragon hit dice are some of the best and you get some pretty handy stat boosts.

Sadly, if you want to make the best of your breath weapon, you might as well give up on pure damage breath weapons, a dragonfire adept will outperform you utterly. The best bet for breath weapon focus is to play either a Shadow or Pyroclastic Dragon, the former inflicting negative levels and the latter having a save or be disintegrated breath weapon (and large size quite early on, along with some massive strength, also, immunity to fire AND sonic with no vulnerability!). Metallic dragon secondary breath weapons also work.

I'll copy/paste a build I wrote up earlier on how to achieve what I have nicknamed Mr. Incinerator:

A progression for this would no doubt be fairly easy to write out, as it only really requires 2 feats and the progression is linear through the entire time (all Pyroclastic Dragon HD), as such I will simply write what it should roughly look like at ECL 20.

Stats done with 28 point-buy. Stats allocated for a melee monster, points could be moved from strength to wisdom, intelligence, or charisma for a more intelligent character. All level up bonuses allocated to Con, these stats also reflect a +5 item and +5 inherit bonus via manual/wishes.

Young Pyroclastic Dragon (ECL 20)

HD 14D12+182 (266)

Str:30(+10)
Dex:10(+0)
Con:37(+13)
Int:10(+0)
Wis:10(+0)
Cha:10(+0)

I won't go into detail about anything other than the breath weapon DC pumpage, as how you wish to set up this character's melee is personal preference.

This character will take both the heighten breath metabreath feat and the ability focus (breath weapon)* feat. Quicken breath is also useful and recommended. Also favorable are metabreath feats to increase the area and change the shape of your disintegrating breath.

*I am unsure if this applies to both modes of breath weapon or just one, if it is only 1 mode, this applies to the disintegrating one

Breath weapon save to avoid disintegration:
Fort save (to not disintegrate when hit by the breath, I imagine a reflex save is probably also still offered to dodge it.)
10+7+13+2=base DC of 32
if you want to ensure that your opponent fries, you use heighten breath a whopping 13 times to boost the save DC to 45, you can also quicken breath to make this a free action. (this will of course render you incapable of using your breath weapon for 1D4+13 rounds, if you're only using heighten)

Assuming a 20 is not counted an automatic success, a character who rolls 20 will need a +25 reflex or fort save to survive. You can always fly away and try again later if your opponents got lucky the first try, too.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now then, I'm sure there are a lot of methods with which this save DC can be pushed even higher that I am not aware of, so feel free to point out any that I may have missed!
Meanwhile, anyone with Soulfire (BoED, +3 enhancement) armor is completely immune. Anyone with Death Ward (CA, +1 enhancement) armor is immune 1/day--which means you have to recharge, and by then the battle might be over. At level 20, if you attempt to fly away and try again later, your opponents *will* fly after you and hunt you down, (if they don't kill you sooner).

Username
2007-07-20, 10:01 PM
true, but Pyroclastic Dragons are no weaklings in melee, the breath is just there to wipe out anyone unfortunate enough note to have some sort of protective spell. It's not like your breath weapon is worth a damn for anything else anyways due to gimped breath weapon damage progression.

Druid_lord
2007-07-20, 10:05 PM
i'm not gunning for power here, in fact i'm looking for something fairly simple i can get my DM to accept

Fizban
2007-07-20, 10:36 PM
i'm not gunning for power here, in fact i'm looking for something fairly simple i can get my DM to accept

Well, there's nothing complicated about it. Find out what level the campaign starts at, choose a dragon, choose a size with total hit die and LA equal to or lower than that, add class levels until ECL matches that of the rest of the party.

The problem is being useful with the huge LA and effectively gimped breath weapon, and that's why everyone keeps listing build suggestions. Unless you start out at a really high level, you're going to be a bunch of levels behind with some moderate stat boosts, so you have to min/max just to stay alive. If you start out at really high level, you have more possibilities, but ultimately will still be a melee fighter with some stat boosts, and melee is hard to do without a good build planned out.

Druid_lord
2007-07-20, 10:48 PM
the campaign is ecl 16. i am planning on a melle based char. i only have access to the phb , phb2, mm, dmg and tome of battle. If anyone has build suggestions for that please post them and i understand Fizban's statemant baout necessary min-maxing.

NullAshton
2007-07-20, 10:49 PM
Well, there's nothing complicated about it. Find out what level the campaign starts at, choose a dragon, choose a size with total hit die and LA equal to or lower than that, add class levels until ECL matches that of the rest of the party.

The problem is being useful with the huge LA and effectively gimped breath weapon, and that's why everyone keeps listing build suggestions. Unless you start out at a really high level, you're going to be a bunch of levels behind with some moderate stat boosts, so you have to min/max just to stay alive. If you start out at really high level, you have more possibilities, but ultimately will still be a melee fighter with some stat boosts, and melee is hard to do without a good build planned out.

Dragons have absolutely INSANE AC(they get the wealth of a PC of their ECL), flying, amazing senses, dragon hitdice which gives you great skills and BAB, insane amount of hitpoints thanks to d12 hitpoints, excellent natural attacks, and high stats in everything except dexterity.

Oh, and not to mention one or even TWO immunities, other nifty assorted bonuses such as half the distance penalties thanks to excellent eyesight, blindsense, and in the case of metallic dragons a save-or-lose breath weapon.

They seem pretty dang good. Mind you, they do have a few weaknesses, namely the LA. But still pretty good in a party.

Ulzgoroth
2007-07-20, 11:57 PM
The LA means they don't have the BaB of a fighter of their level, though they may largely make up for that in extra strength. They get no iterative attacks (though up to 5 natural attacks eventually), generally don't have magical weapons, and the only 'class features' they get are an low-powered breath weapon and eventually a tiny casting capability. Flying is very nice, but you've got to be able to do something when you get there.

Luircin
2007-07-21, 02:11 AM
The LA means they don't have the BaB of a fighter of their level, though they may largely make up for that in extra strength. They get no iterative attacks (though up to 5 natural attacks eventually), generally don't have magical weapons, and the only 'class features' they get are an low-powered breath weapon and eventually a tiny casting capability. Flying is very nice, but you've got to be able to do something when you get there.

Taking the Rapidstrike tree from the Draconomicon gives one iterative attack, and then up to four, but can only be used on claws, wings, or other weapon pairs.

When I was creating the sin dragons, I gave that tree, Dire Charge, and Leap Attack to the dragon of Wrath. Add a Wraithstrike from his sorcerer levels, and he was dishing out 18 attacks with up to 2,500+ damage in one round. (Yes, it was against epic players. Why do you ask?) It kinda looked silly for a dragon to land and then leap at his enemy, but it was effective.

Okay, so that was a DM story. But I DID go Rapidstrike for my brass wyrmling barbarian and pulled off 5 attacks as a full attack while still tiny-sized. The +2 to-hit sunk into PA helped make up for the tiny damage dice.

Luircin
2007-07-21, 02:41 AM
the campaign is ecl 16. i am planning on a melle based char. i only have access to the phb , phb2, mm, dmg and tome of battle. If anyone has build suggestions for that please post them and i understand Fizban's statemant baout necessary min-maxing.

If you need the feats, take a one or two level dip into fighter, but other than that, sink as many levels as you can into straight dragon. It's a d12 hit die, all good saves, high BAB, 6 skill points, and a point of natural armor for every additional HD. You'll need the best you can get with the anywhere from +2 to +4 LA you'll be swallowing.

Medium-sized dragon gives you a bite, two claws, and two wings. Very Young silver dragon will get you that. If you can find a way to boost yourself to Large, that will grant a powerful tail attack too.

I don't have most of my books here, so I'll let the others get into feats you should have, other than Power Attack. If I remember it correctly, though, taking a few maneuvers from Tiger Claw in ToB might help you with your five attacks (I'll leave that to someone whose ToB isn't in storage for another month, though).

Remember that you also have Use Magic Device on your dragon HD skill list. Toting around some wands or scrolls for use in an emergency is a good idea, and it will let you still participate even if the foes are out of melee range (Which is unlikely with your high fly speed, but possible).

If your DM will let you take it, then take Heighten Breath for your paralysis gas. It will let you boost the DC by up to your Con mod in exchange for waiting another number of rounds equal to the amount you boosted. You'll be getting a Con boost from your race; take advantage of it (Your save DC is based on that too). By the time you recharge, the fight's usually over anyways.

If not, Ability Focus, but it's not nearly as potent without the potential +6 to +8 boost that HB provides.

Magic items: Three priorities, not necessarily in this order.
An item that gives you pounce. What good are five attacks if you can't use them?
Item that boosts Constitution. You're going to be a tank and breath weapon saves are based on it.
Item that boosts saving throws. Even with the all-good-saves from dragon HD, you're going to be behind the party. A +5 vest/cloak of resistance is easily affordable for a 16th level character.

Also: Amulet of mighty fists. It's overpriced, but with 5 attacks, it might actually be worth it.

Convince your DM to allow you to buy claw 'gauntlets' that you can enchant as if they were magic weapons.

Druid_lord
2007-07-21, 06:47 AM
what book is heighten breath from? also are thier ability modifiers for dragons or do ye just take the listed stats from the mm?

mostlyharmful
2007-07-21, 07:05 AM
heighten breath is from the Draconomicon, it alows you to increase the save DC by +1 for every round you delay recovering your breath for the next use. It's absolutely ridiculously broken when you're a metallic with a save or suck/lose breath, take an extra fourteen rounds of recovery time and one shot the entire party????

Druid_lord
2007-07-21, 07:07 AM
what most people here are saying is that the LA is such a disadvantage thatt that sort of thing is necessary to be good. however my DM is very wary of the whole idea to begin with, so that sort of thing is out.

edit: still looking for a response to me question are there ability modifiers for dragons or do ye just take the listed stats from the mm?

nerulean
2007-07-21, 11:50 AM
what most people here are saying is that the LA is such a disadvantage thatt that sort of thing is necessary to be good. however my DM is very wary of the whole idea to begin with, so that sort of thing is out.

edit: still looking for a response to me question are there ability modifiers for dragons or do ye just take the listed stats from the mm?

The MM talks about giving advanced monsters an array of stats, if I recall correctly, and then combining the modifiers from the two. Rolling up a set of stats, subtracting 10 from each one, and then adding the result to the standard dragon stats seems like a plausible deduction from that, though it may not technically apply to PCs. Thus, if you roll an 18, you add eight to one stat, and so on. Alternatively, you could subtract 10 from every even numbered dragon stat and 11 from every odd numbered one to give you dragon racial modifiers, if your DM wants them presented like that.

If your DM is proving difficult to convince, I suggest going with absolute simplicity. At ECL 16 you could be a very young gold dragon (+5 LA, 11 HD) for a large size and the extra attacks that gives, in which case make sure you get at least Multiattack, and possibly Improved Multiattack since your BAB will already be some way below the expected melee level of the party, and your strength mod not high enough to compensate. Alternatively, a very young silver dragon would let you take two class levels for a little more customisation and gives you the paralysis breath weapon which is somewhat more useful than the gold dragon's weakener at that ECL, though feats such as heighten to up the DC can be invaluable. If you play silver, however, do watch out for that inconvenient occupational hazard, the fireball spell, to which you become irritatingly vulnerable.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-21, 11:53 AM
The MM talks about giving advanced monsters an array of stats, if I recall correctly, and then combining the modifiers from the two. Rolling up a set of stats, subtracting 10 from each one, and then adding the result to the standard dragon stats seems like a plausible deduction from that, though it may not technically apply to PCs. Thus, if you roll an 18, you add eight to one stat, and so on. Alternatively, you could subtract 10 from every even numbered dragon stat and 11 from every odd numbered one to give you dragon racial modifiers, if your DM wants them presented like that.

You're looking at it incorrectly. You subtract ten (from even scores) or eleven (from odd scores) from the MM creature's ability scores: these are its racial modifiers.

Luircin
2007-07-21, 11:59 AM
what most people here are saying is that the LA is such a disadvantage thatt that sort of thing is necessary to be good. however my DM is very wary of the whole idea to begin with, so that sort of thing is out.

edit: still looking for a response to me question are there ability modifiers for dragons or do ye just take the listed stats from the mm?

I don't understand what you mean by your comments about the LA. Are you saying that your DM is just going to have you play a dragon with every hit dice = one level and not bother with the level adjustment? If so, your character will be much more powerful than expected.

If you mean that there will be NO level adjusted races allowed, then I'm not sure that any dragons qualify for that.

If you just mean that he doesn't like min-maxing, remember that the party arcane caster will be throwing around save-or-dies by this level and the healer will probably be doing CoDzilla SMASH. Our min-max suggestions aren't to help you dominate the party, just to keep you participating.


As for ability modifiers: Take the stats listed in the MM. If they're even, subtract 10, if odd, subtract 11. Those are the dragon ability modifiers. Add those to your rolled stats.

Example: In the case of a very young silver dragon, the stats in the MM are STR 15 DEX 10 CON 15 INT 14 WIS 15 CHA 14.

So the ability modifiers are STR +4 CON +4 INT +4 WIS +4 CHA +4.

You could just take the MM stats, but add that to the level adjustment and you'll be very underpowered compared to the rest of the party. It would be similar to playing a normal race with 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 in ability scores.


Edit: Arg. Ninja'd! Twice!

Luircin
2007-07-21, 12:04 PM
heighten breath is from the Draconomicon, it alows you to increase the save DC by +1 for every round you delay recovering your breath for the next use. It's absolutely ridiculously broken when you're a metallic with a save or suck/lose breath, take an extra fourteen rounds of recovery time and one shot the entire party????

Remember that it's limited by your Constitution modifier. Still very good in the case of save-or-lose/suck/die, though. When I used it, I had to make sure to use it sparingly to make sure that the DM didn't smite me.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-07-21, 01:53 PM
I should post my Manaket/Mamkut class...

Being a Dragon is a lot like playing any nonhumanoid monster. You're just playing one of the most powerful ones.

I tried making a White dragon wyrmling PC once but it just didn't work.