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JellyPooga
2007-07-19, 04:03 PM
Aargh! Having decided that a Pseudodragon PC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51131) is a viable idea, I'm now having trouble actually making this character...I need help! [I decided to post a new thread on this because I'd rather keep the other one for general comments on Pseudodragons as PCs...this is specifically a "character build" I'm after]

First off, I need a concept.

I'm thinking "hard-to-kill-nippy-little-git" as far as combat goes, but I'm struggling to get an idea of him outside of combat...I know I don't want him to be a particularly mischievous character, but rather a more laid-back, cat-like attitude. But that's about as far as I've got.

I was considering some kind of spellcaster (either Sorcerer or Warlock), drawing on his draconic blood style of thing, but I know that being a spellcaster is going to be somewhat limited by his ECL, so if I do go down that sort of route, it's probably going to be multiclass. Going with Warlock would allow for a kind of "playing with his food" approach to combat, what with being able to fly and unliited eldritch blasts, which fits with the cat-like attitude, but then Sorcerer has the stronger Draconic link (and options with the Draconic Heritage feats and Dragonblood Caster PrCs).

As far as "hard-to-kill-nippy-little-git" goes, I was considering Monk, Scout and/or Thief Acrobat, with the possibility of Street Fighter as well, but that doesn't leave much (if any) room for spellcasting (even though it's not essential). I also considered Invisible Blade, by convincing my DM to allow me to use it with my Sting attack instead of daggers (which also brings up the possibility of Duelist, using the same concept). I don't, however, like the idea of this character using weapons at all (bar his Natural attacks)...even as a Monk, using his Unarmed Strike...I'd much prefer him to use his Sting and Bite if he's going into melee (though if I were to go Monk, I could argue that it's his Claws that he's using, which fits the 'natural weapons' theme).

I was also wondering if there was any Feat and/or PrC that allows Scout, Monk and/or Warlock to stack and/or progress any of their class abilities (skirmish, unarmed damage, Monks AC/speed bonus, eldritch blast, invocations, etc.)...not neccesarily all three together, but Warlock/Monk or Scout/Warlock or Scout/Monk (though something that stacked Scout/Monk/Warlock would be ideal if it existed).

On the "outside of combat" front, I know that Pseudodragons are most commonly encountered as Familiars to Wizards and Sorcerers and it has a little bit on them in the MM, but it's not exactly extensive...they live for up to about 15 years in temperate forests and have catlike/slightly mischievous personalities...that's about all they give you.

So, does anyone have any advice on quite how to build this character? I need ideas on class/PrC progression, including skill foci and feats, but (somewhat) more importantly, I need some ideas on personality and background. I appreciate any help you can give...thanks!

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-19, 04:49 PM
I, inspired by your thread, made a level 8 gestalt pseudodragon as a backup character for one of my campaigns. (I also gave him the dark template, which meant he was getting absolutely ridiculous Hide checks, and had Hide in Plain sight, but that's not applicable to you.)

With the non LA side, I found Scout to be a great class. Mixing it with either Ranger or Rogue and taking the appropriate Complete Scoundrel feat to let the abilities stack lets you throw lots of extra dice to make up for your strength penalty. The reason Scout works so well? Flyby Attack. With a flight speed of 60, it's hard to even catch the guy, as he zips back and forth dealing precision damage. Meanwhile, the abundance of skill points helps a lot out of combat (and can make up for all the non-character levels).

The other thing I found fun was maxing out his ranks in Intimidate. Nothing like the cat-sized dragon scaring the ogre into submission :smallbiggrin:.

Jasdoif
2007-07-19, 04:55 PM
It's interesting: the listed pseudodragon has 6 ranks in Hide, Listen, Search, Sense Motive and Spot, despite not having the 3HD it'd need to have 6 ranks in a skill. Anyway, given that predisposition I would go with rogue levels. Or perhaps Warlock/Rogue, to sneak attack with eldritch blast (for fun, consider that the dragon trying to use a nonexistent breath weapon is the somatic component for eldritch blast). Scout might work too, but I can't check Complete Adventurer here and I don't remember the class well enough to make a suggestion either way with it.

As for personality...perhaps more playful then mischievous? Say, for instance...hangs around with the humanoid wizard/sorcerer a lot, simply because the pseudodragon gets a kick out of people looking at her like she's "just a familiar". Not actively trying to fool anyone, just highly amused when it happens, and so continues doing the same thing. You could a theme of this, personality quirks based on being amused and not feeling it's worth the effort to try something different.


Be advised that unless you change Strength from the listed 6, your status as a tiny quadraped means you can't fly naturally if your encumbrance exceeds 15 lbs.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-19, 05:00 PM
Be advised that unless you change Strength from the listed 6, your status as a tiny quadraped means you can't fly naturally if your encumbrance exceeds 15 lbs.

Ah, that was one thing I plan to emphasize if I end up using the character. Since I put my single low roll (7) into Str, I end up with a Str of 3. Which means that the pseudodragon has to carry everything in his handy haversack--anything else, and he can't fly. I was also thinking of making him a wizard, just so he could have the huge hassle of getting out his spellbook each morning.

JackMage666
2007-07-19, 05:09 PM
If you go Wizard or Sorcerer, take Improved Familiar to get a Pseudodragon familiar! I mean, why not? It's a Pseudodragon with a pet Pseudodragon. Hooray!

Jasdoif
2007-07-19, 05:11 PM
I was also thinking of making him a wizard, just so he could have the huge hassle of getting out his spellbook each morning.Now in a case like that, I see him climbing into the handy haversack to prepare his spells. There's a bottle of air or similar inside as well, of course.

JellyPooga
2007-07-19, 06:06 PM
(for fun, consider that the dragon trying to use a nonexistent breath weapon is the somatic component for eldritch blast).

Heh heh... I'd not thought of that (If it's a Brimstone Blast now...:smallbiggrin: )


As for personality...perhaps more playful then mischievous? Say, for instance...hangs around with the humanoid wizard/sorcerer a lot, simply because the pseudodragon gets a kick out of people looking at her like she's "just a familiar". Not actively trying to fool anyone, just highly amused when it happens, and so continues doing the same thing. You could a theme of this, personality quirks based on being amused and not feeling it's worth the effort to try something different.

Yeah, I'd considered playing up the 'Most Pseudodragons you encounter are Familiars' thing...as was pointed out to me by someone on the WotC boards, communication through telepathy isn't often a good or easy way to make other people comfortable, so I thought that this character would probably get the other PCs to talk to NPCs for him, whilst he pretended to be their Familiar or pet.


Be advised that unless you change Strength from the listed 6, your status as a tiny quadraped means you can't fly naturally if your encumbrance exceeds 15 lbs.

Yeah, I've already rolled up his stats (4d6 drop lowest, re-roll any roll that has 2 "1s" in it) and the lowest was a 12...putting that into Strength gives him an 8...combined with the (total of) 16 on Con, he's fairly butch for a Pseudodragon, but it still means that his light load is only 19lb. Not particularly a problem given that I don't exactly plan on him wearing Plate Mail or anything and Tiny sized equipment is going to weigh practically nothing anyways. A Belt of Many Pockets (or similar piece of kit) should take care of any encumbrance issues he might have.

Jasdoif
2007-07-19, 06:17 PM
Yeah, I'd considered playing up the 'Most Pseudodragons you encounter are Familiars' thing...as was pointed out to me by someone on the WotC boards, communication through telepathy isn't often a good or easy way to make other people comfortable, so I thought that this character would probably get the other PCs to talk to NPCs for him, whilst he pretended to be their Familiar or pet.As an added plus, this can make you an excellent sentry as well: Keep your Spot and Listen maxed, and relay information to your party members via telepathy. Thieves might not even know they've been detected, depending on how subtle your party is.

Leon
2007-07-19, 11:50 PM
A Belt of Many Pockets (or similar piece of kit) should take care of any encumbrance issues he might have.

That is my favourite magic item, godsend for anyone no matter what their STR is

The Warlock Breath weapon idea sounds good

Jack Mann
2007-07-20, 01:23 AM
Don't go with warlock. It could work for an NPC, but for a PC? You're just not going to be able to contribute significantly to the party with your class levels. While you could eventually kill something, but that point your party's either dead or already finished them off. Unless they want to wait out in the corridor while you finish whatever it is off (and that's absolutely no fun for everyone else), you're just not going to be any use.

I'd go with some manner of skillmonkey. Rogue or scout, or possibly a beguiler.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-20, 02:25 AM
Looking at the "cat-like" part of their description, I realized that could be fun to play up. Demand praise and pampering for all good work done. Consider all the other PCs and their gear to be "yours." Pounce on small critters, laze in the sun. (I'd add more things, but unfortunately, I don't own a cat and would probably be mistaken.)

And if you're the trapmonkey, see if the DM will let your claws and tail be considered masterwork thieves' tools. Just because it'd be fun to manipulate your claws around inside a lock to open it up.

JellyPooga
2007-07-20, 08:48 AM
I've decided (after much deliberation) to go with Bard...Skill-Monkey-ish with a little bit a Casting...sounds good to me and incorporates most of the elements I wanted (the 'hard-to-kill' thing has been left by the wayside, but his SR and fly speed should keep him safe from most things).

I also like the idea of him plucking at a tiny little mandolin with his claws whilst singing like a mogwai (using the Versatile Performer feat of course).

I would like to PrC him out of Bard into one of the Bardic PrC's, but I'm not sure which one to take...the choice is between War Singer, Seeker of the Song or Sublime Chord

War Singer
Pros: Full B.A.B - makes up for the deficiency due to ECL
Cons: No spellcasting, Bardic Music effects not amazing

Seeker of the Song
Pros: Groovy Bardic Music effects
Cons: No spellcasting

Sublime Chord
Pros: Bad-A spellcasting
Cons: Bardic Music suffers somewhat, low B.A.B

The biggest problem in my decision is that he will only be getting 7 levels of whichever PrC he takes before he hits epic levels (and I doubt any game I play in will even approach 20, let alone epic). So does anyone have any advice on which PrC might be better/more fitting?

cody.burton
2007-07-20, 09:03 AM
Flavor-wise, I would go for Seeker of the Song. War Chanter and Sublime Chord seem too blunt for a cat-like character.

Keld Denar
2007-07-20, 09:22 AM
Take leadership. Have a low int barbarian cohort who calls you George. Make him carry you and cater to your every wim. That's roleplayalicious, even if it is a little cliche.

I'd also recommend rogue/scout with flyby attack. Contribute mostly to the party through skills and a little suplimental dice damage.

JellyPooga
2007-07-20, 09:31 AM
Take leadership. Have a low int barbarian cohort who calls you George. Make him carry you and cater to your every wim. That's roleplayalicious, even if it is a little cliche.

I wanted to steer clear of Companions/Familiars/Cohorts because that's far too role-reversal for me. If anything, this character is a companion to one of the other PC's in the party (not through any class ability or anything though).


I'd also recommend rogue/scout with flyby attack. Contribute mostly to the party through skills and a little suplimental dice damage.

Yeah, I was going to go down that route, but I didn't like the idea of him focusing on combat at all (which both Rogue and Scout have somewhat, with Sneak Attack and Skirmish)...so Bard made most sense to me; skills, some spells and music/knowledge...it just kind of fit what I came to have in mind. I wouldn't mind having Evasion and/or Uncanny Dodge, but I see very few (if any) ways of getting them without going into a more combat-oriented class.

Keld Denar
2007-07-20, 10:10 AM
So, would you telepathically communicate your bard songs?

From SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pseudodragon.htm

A pseudodragon can communicate telepathically and can also vocalize animal noises.

Animal noises probably wouldn't consitute as bard song, so your only other method of "singing" would be telepathy. For the more offensive bard song abilities such as fascinate and suggestion, what if the person doesn't want to beaming thoughts into their head? Would an unwilling target of your mental communication get a save or SR, above and beyond that of the individual save needed vs the song effect? Would a person under the effect of mind blank or 5 levels of occult slayer not be able to communicate with you? These are some interesting questions.

I do like the idea of beaming "elevator music" into someones head as a countersong. I know I can't focus on anything when I hear it, so I'd be more resistant to mental control.

JellyPooga
2007-07-20, 12:34 PM
So, would you telepathically communicate your bard songs?

From SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pseudodragon.htm


Animal noises probably wouldn't consitute as bard song, so your only other method of "singing" would be telepathy. For the more offensive bard song abilities such as fascinate and suggestion, what if the person doesn't want to beaming thoughts into their head? Would an unwilling target of your mental communication get a save or SR, above and beyond that of the individual save needed vs the song effect? Would a person under the effect of mind blank or 5 levels of occult slayer not be able to communicate with you? These are some interesting questions.

I do like the idea of beaming "elevator music" into someones head as a countersong. I know I can't focus on anything when I hear it, so I'd be more resistant to mental control.

I hadn't actually thought of that...Personally, I didn't see a problem with him using his 'animal noises' as a legitimate Performance. Sure, it's only animal noises, but animal noises given theme and controlled can still produce music. I had kind of conjured an image of his singing like a Mogwai (from the film Gremlins). I am also going to have him play the Fiddle, Harp and Mandoline (they all come under the Stringed Instruments catagory...), so even if him singing isn't given approval by my DM, he can still use his Bardic Music with them.

On the subject of resisting Telepathy, it's a supernatural ability, so anything that would block a Su. Ability would also block Telepathy. So under normal circumstances, no, you can't resist it, but it is possible through alterior means.

Nifft
2007-07-20, 02:20 PM
+4 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wisdom... Swordsage!

Desert Wind fire maneuvers -> breath weapon replacement. Yay cone of (Su) fire!

Shadow Hand stances & maneuvers -> yay offensive use of your Hide check!

1/ Dragon 1 -- [Weapon Finesse], Improved Unarmed Strike
2/ Dragon 2
3/ Swordsage 1 -- [Weapon Focus: Tiger Claw], Shadow Blade -- Child of Shadow (SH/Stance), Burning Blade (DW/Boost), Wind Stride (DW/Boost), Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM/Strike), Shadow Blade Technique (SH/Strike), Counter Charge (SS/Counter), Wolf Fang Strike (TC/Strike)

4/ Swordsage 2 -- [Wis to AC] -- Hatchling's Flame (DW/Strike), Island of Blades (SH/Stance)
5/ Swordsage 3 -- Shadow Jaunt (SH/?)
6/ Swordsage 4 -- [Wis to Strike damage: Desert Wind], Multiattack -- Wolf Fang Strike -> Death Mark (DW/Strike), Flashing Sun (DW/Strike)

7/ Swordsage 5 -- Assassin's Stance (SH/Stance), Insightful Strike (DM/Strike)
8/ Swordsage 6 -- Firesnake (DW/Strike)
9/ Swordsage 7 -- Gloom Razor -- Obscuring Shadow Veil (SH/Strike)

10/ Swordsage 8 -- [Defensive Stance: Shadow Hand] -- Hatchling's Flame -> Dragon's Flame (DW/Strike), Shadow Stride (SH/?)
11/ Swordsage 9 -- Flame's Blessing (DW/Stance), Leaping Flame (DW/Counter)
12/ Swordsage 10 -- Adaptive Style -- Greater Insightful Strike (DM/Strike)

You'll be able to do respectable fire damage; you can pile on a lot of damage with Assassin's Stance + Flashing Sun + Burning Blade. Improved Unarmed Strike + your natural attacks gives you a LOT of potential hits. Replace Gloom Razor with Superior Unarmed Strike if you prefer damage to subtle tactics.

Note that Shadow Blade gives you Dex to damage (!!!) while you're in a Shadow Hand stance and using a Shadow Hand weapon (like Unarmed Strike).

Cheers, -- N

JellyPooga
2007-07-20, 05:04 PM
Nifft: As much as I might want to play a Swordsage, alas, I do not own the requisite book the information regarding said class is in (ToB?). My thanks for your input though :smallwink: