Ability Focus?

[EndocrineBandit]

If it can be used for 'Poison Use' to give one a +2 DC on saves with all poisons they use.. What is preventing a PC from taking Ability Focus (Spellcasting)? In most monster entries that cast spells, spellcasting is listed among their special attacks. I'm wondering if there is a RAW ruling preventing this?

[Necroticplague]

If it can be used for 'Poison Use' to give one a +2 DC on saves with all poisons they use.. What is preventing a PC from taking Ability Focus (Spellcasting)? In most monster entries that cast spells, spellcasting is listed among their special attacks. I'm wondering if there is a RAW ruling preventing this?

1. That's a big "if". The answer is 'No', for several reasons. First off, Poison Use is not an ability that has a DC. Poison Use just allows you to apply poison to a weapon without risking poisoning yourself. This does not involve a DC that Ability Focus can improve. Second off, it's a Natural Ability, not a Special Ability (of which Special Attacks are a subset).

Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), psi-like (Ps), or supernatural (Su).

2. For the same reason as the above. Spellcasting is a Natural Ability, because it isn't marked EX, SU, or SLA. Since it's a Natural Ability, it's not a Special Ability, thus is can't be a Special Attack, thus you can't apply Ability Focus to it.

[Troacctid]

It actually doesn't matter whether spellcasting is a special ability or not, because it doesn't have a save DC. Spellcasting is just the ability that allows you to prepare and cast spells; it's only the individual spells themselves that have DCs. Notice, for example, that different spells have different DCs, and may even draw off of different ability scores to determine those DCs.

[GilesTheCleric]

2. For the same reason as the above. Spellcasting is a Natural Ability, because it isn't marked EX, SU, or SLA. Since it's a Natural Ability, it's not a Special Ability, thus is can't be a Special Attack, thus you can't apply Ability Focus to it.

Ability Focus absolutely works with spells.


saving throws against the special attack


--Spells

[EndocrineBandit]

The 'If' on Ability Focus being used with Poison Use comes from most of the poison handbooks I've seen floating around here and the brilliantgameologists forums. It is pretty much a standard when it comes to a poison-build because of the atrocious save DCs most poisons offer.

Spellcasting is a Natural Ability that gets listed under Special Attacks?

[Lateral]

The 'If' on Ability Focus being used with Poison Use comes from most of the poison handbooks I've seen floating around here and the brilliantgameologists forums. It is pretty much a standard when it comes to a poison-build because of the atrocious save DCs most poisons offer.
That's for creatures with their own poison. Ability Focus definitely applies to that, but I've never heard anyone argue that you could apply it to any poison you use on a weapon. Arsenic & Old Lace (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162789#msg162789) says no such thing.

[GilesTheCleric]

That's for creatures with their own poison. Ability Focus definitely applies to that, but I've never heard anyone argue that you could apply it to any poison you use on a weapon. Arsenic & Old Lace (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162789#msg162789) says no such thing.
Yup.

There is one creature that excretes a poison slime, and that has a racial mechanic in which they can run their weapons through that slime in order to poison them for the next attack. Depending on the wording, that might be one corner case where you could apply the racial poison DC increase to an attack with a manufactured weapon. I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the race offhand.

[Vaz]

Yup.

There is one creature that excretes a poison slime, and that has a racial mechanic in which they can run their weapons through that slime in order to poison them for the next attack. Depending on the wording, that might be one corner case where you could apply the racial poison DC increase to an attack with a manufactured weapon. I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the race offhand.

Common sense would suggest that an enhanced ppison harvested from the creature (rather than sythesised from an extract) is going to have the same DC as the creature using it. Say you are fighting a Wyvern Queen, with Ability Focused Poison and an increased Con, the poison harvested from the stinger would be similarly more dangerous than its brethren. Someone taking that Poison and sticking it in a vial to coat on the weapon.

[GilesTheCleric]

Common sense would suggest that an enhanced ppison harvested from the creature (rather than sythesised from an extract) is going to have the same DC as the creature using it. Say you are fighting a Wyvern Queen, with Ability Focused Poison and an increased Con, the poison harvested from the stinger would be similarly more dangerous than its brethren. Someone taking that Poison and sticking it in a vial to coat on the weapon.

That's a good point I hadn't thought of. I suppose you could then either pick a race from which you could harvest your own poison, or could train/ psionic reformation one.

[Mato]

In most monster entries that cast spells, spellcasting is listed among their special attacks. I'm wondering if there is a RAW ruling preventing this?Troacctid is right, spellcasting doesn't have a save dc, spells do.

And Necroticplague is a little inaccurate, just because it's a special attack doesn't mean it's also a special ability. And the DMGII's updated statistic block and onwards also confirms spellcasting is not a special ability.

[Necroticplague]

It actually doesn't matter whether spellcasting is a special ability or not, because it doesn't have a save DC. Spellcasting is just the ability that allows you to prepare and cast spells; it's only the individual spells themselves that have DCs. Notice, for example, that different spells have different DCs, and may even draw off of different ability scores to determine those DCs.

I was originally gonna go with this argument (since I used an identical one for Poison Use), but it falls flat when you realize that the Spells ability specifically has a DC mentioned in it.


A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Cleric. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level. When a cleric prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from one of his two domains (see Deities, Domains, and Domain Spells, below).

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

[Vaz]

That's a good point I hadn't thought of. I suppose you could then either pick a race from which you could harvest your own poison, or could train/ psionic reformation one.

Animal Handling/Domination is considered one very reliable way of getting poison, provided you have the downtime to return to the place where you store all your 80ft long Megapedes or advanced Wyverns.

Alchemy is very bare bones, so I tend to allow players with it to advance poison virulence with a DC equal to the current DC+2. Say they have a DC14 poison, they can attempt to make a DC16 Alchemy check. If successful, they get a DC16 version of the poison. And they can keep doing so, each time adding +2 to the DC before repeating it all again, but each attempt takes a full day and I sometimes require them to take days out of downtime to get special resources; either ordering it in, or even fun little 'one shots' outside of normal game time for said poisoner to acquire certain reagents. Its not like one can take a Tenday off and get a +20DC poison, although honestly if a martial has spent that time to do so, and invested their skill points to get that check, why not reward them?

There the downsides; aforementioned time sinks, but also chance of ruining it. Flumphing the check by 5 or more spoils the full dose and wastes the day, and there few buffs available due to the short term nature of it.

Other stuff is available, such as combining poisons, altering delivery method, increasing viscosity so that you get additional uses per dose etc.

[daremetoidareyo]

Yup.

There is one creature that excretes a poison slime, and that has a racial mechanic in which they can run their weapons through that slime in order to poison them for the next attack. Depending on the wording, that might be one corner case where you could apply the racial poison DC increase to an attack with a manufactured weapon. I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the race offhand.

The obati (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040530a) perhaps?

[GilesTheCleric]

The obati (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040530a) perhaps?

Yes! Thank you so much for finding it. I hadn't written it down anywhere despite the neat mechanic, and now I know why: LA+2. Why can't we have nice things?

[Crake]

Common sense would suggest that an enhanced ppison harvested from the creature (rather than sythesised from an extract) is going to have the same DC as the creature using it. Say you are fighting a Wyvern Queen, with Ability Focused Poison and an increased Con, the poison harvested from the stinger would be similarly more dangerous than its brethren. Someone taking that Poison and sticking it in a vial to coat on the weapon.

This is what I do in one of my games with my imp familiar. His DC is far better than a standard imp because he has ability focus, and my HD, and just before we harvest the poison, we boost his con with bear's endurance to increase the DC by another 2, so our assassin can get some decent dex damage poison. This a pathfinder game, so it's 1d2 dex every round for 6 rounds, which isn't half bad, considering it's practically free.

[Zanos]

Troacctid is right, spellcasting doesn't have a save dc, spells do.
No. Spells give part of the formula for how to determine spell DC. If spells have a save DC, you should be able to answer: what's the DC for fireball? You can't tell me, because I didn't tell you the class spell list it's being cast from, the primary ability score of the spellcaster, or the modifier for that ability score.

The "Spells" class feature and special attack(as it's listed in every monster statblock) gives the formula for how to determine spell DC for a given creature. There is no "spellcasting" special attack.

[EndocrineBandit]

This has been most informative, and I thank you all for your time and responses!