Thunder Damage and unlisted associated effects

[BiPolar]

My group has been doing a bit of a sneaky infiltration and one of them used an attack that included Thunder damage. I ended up handwaiving away any noise it may have caused, as the attack doesn't state it makes noise or creates noise (like knock, shatter, etc.) and fluffed it as a sonic wall/shockwave.

Was that correct, or do things like Thunder damage always make noise?

[Fishyninja]

I would assume Thunder would always make a noise considering it is sonic energy. Unless you could explain a reason as to why the frequency fell out of the characters hearing range.

[Dr.Samurai]

If we take thunder damage to mean damage from noise, then it can go either way I guess. As Fishyninja mentions, it could be beyond our hearing range and still be damaging. That said, Thunder is pretty loud, so I think the default assumption is that the spell is noisy.

Which spell was it?

[BiPolar]

I would assume Thunder would always make a noise considering it is sonic energy. Unless you could explain a reason as to why the frequency fell out of the characters hearing range.

Yeah, i allowed it last session, but I think i have to have it be audible moving forward. But how loud is it (if undefined in the language)?

Is it pretty much just as loud as the rest of a fight?

[Oramac]

as the attack doesn't state it makes noise or creates noise

If it doesn't state it makes noise, then it doesn't make noise.

That said, situationally, I could see a DM ruling that it does make noise.

[BiPolar]

If we take thunder damage to mean damage from noise, then it can go either way I guess. As Fishyninja mentions, it could be beyond our hearing range and still be damaging. That said, Thunder is pretty loud, so I think the default assumption is that the spell is noisy.

Which spell was it?

Booming Blade and Shocking Grasp.

[Oramac]

Booming Blade and Shocking Grasp.

Well, Shocking Grasp is Lightning damage, so it doesn't really apply to this discussion.

Booming Blade, as its damage is upon movement, could be fluffed to say its an evocation on the target, and that creatures other than the target don't hear the noise (this is magic, after all).

[Fishyninja]

But how loud is it (if undefined in the language)?

Is it pretty much just as loud as the rest of a fight?

Stimulus - Shotgun Blast-Average of 145-165db for a few milliseconds

Stimulus - Thunderclap average 130db at ground stroke duration multiple seconds.

General Industry can reach about 80-100db

I would consider a Battle would be in that a 80-120db region for a constant time.

[severalservals]

Thunderwave actually spells out how far away it can be heard (up to 300'), though it's the only thunder spell I've seen that does so. Shatter and Thunderwave do both specify that they make very loud sounds. My read is that thunder damage is intended to be be loud. On the plus side it's very rarely resisted, so if you can deal with the noise, it's a good damage type.

[erok0809]

I tend to think of Booming Blade as more of a shockwave or vibration than actual sound. The way I think of it, you take the thunder damage when you move through the "booming energy" that you get sheathed in because you're passing through a shockwave that like vibrates you the wrong way, or something like that, rather than getting hit with loud noise. In any case, the spell also does not say that the damaging effect is audible, so that too tells me that it's not supposed to make noise, considering other thunder-damage-dealing spells do have that text.

[Ziegander]

It's called "Booming Blade," and part of the cantrip's description is, "On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and it becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn," emphasis mine. Now, sure, that's still a little vague. What the heck is "booming energy?" Hard to tell, but what does seem to at least be able to be inferred is what the adjective booming means in general word usage, ie: loud. :smallamused:

[Fishyninja]

I tend to think of Booming Blade as more of a shockwave or vibration than actual sound. The way I think of it, you take the thunder damage when you move through the "booming energy" that you get sheathed in because you're passing through a shockwave that like vibrates you the wrong way, or something like that.

You could liken it to hydrostatic shock. In case you did not know that is when damage can be seen in parts of the body that are not located at the wound. This is normally seen from fast movile projetiles (bullets {I am not aware of bows and cross bows causing arrows or bolts to move fast enough for this to happen}). This is also seen in victims of bombings. It is caused by the hydraulic force of liquid filled tissues dissipating the shock around the body also in cases like this the shick can be so severe that you can see severe damage else where. For example a person loses a leg to an explosion and there are not other wounds yet one of their lungs has ruptured.

[Source] Being a former forensic scientist and currently working in the ballistics industry.

[Tanarii]

IMO if it doesn't say otherwise, it shouldn't be any more noisy than a normal fight.

OTOH a normal fight should be noisy. Anyone nearby will hear, unless they can end it with the first strike. If you're doing a sneaky infiltration, fighting is the very last thing you want to do.


Booming Blade, as its damage is upon movement, could be fluffed to say its an evocation on the target, and that creatures other than the target don't hear the noise (this is magic, after all).Booming blade can pretty easily be viewed as directing the 'booming energy' inwards when it ... uh, booms. As loud as shield parries and other sounds of combat, but not Thunderwave loud.

To compare:
Thunderwave can be heard out to 300 ft / 100m. That distance is approximately -40dB from the source. If we want to assume that it's 'audible' if normal conversation level (60dB), then it's about 100dB at the source. That's about the level of a fairly loud live rock-band (in front of the stage) or standing next to a lawnmower, which seems fair.

Battle is probably around 80 dB (garbage disposal or factory floor). Let's set a lower bound of 75dB and an upper of 85dB. That'd be audible as 'normal conversation' of 60 dB at 6m/20ft (75dB), 12m / 40ft (80dB) or 24m / 80ft (85dB)

[Fishyninja]

Interestingly there is another thread, What does Booming Blade look Like? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512418-What-does-Booming-Blade-look-like&p=21613237#post21613237) which is also talking about thunder damage and noise levels. In that thread I estimated general factory work to be around 80-100db over a constant rate and battle to be in the 80-120db over the rate of the battle.

Oddly enough I found a source stating that at low cover thunder can reach an average of 130db. I would be interested to see some actual published research about the db levels of weather phenomena.

[Tanarii]

Interestingly there is another thread, What does Booming Blade look Like? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512418-What-does-Booming-Blade-look-like&p=21613237#post21613237) which is also talking about thunder damage and noise levels. In that thread I estimated general factory work to be around 80-100db over a constant rate and battle to be in the 80-120db over the rate of the battle.

Oddly enough I found a source stating that at low cover thunder can reach an average of 130db. I would be interested to see some actual published research about the db levels of weather phenomena.

120db is FAR too loud for a battle. Even 100dB is too loud, = use of outboard motor, power lawn mower, motorcycle, farm tractor, jackhammer, garbage truck. Hell even 90dB is probably too loud, that's a motorcycle from 20ft away. I mean, maybe if you've got catapult stones raining down or it's a huge mass-battle ...
http://www.industrialnoisecontrol.com/comparative-noise-examples.htm

Edit: Uh, not that I'm an expert in battle volume or anything. Or sound levels. :smallredface:

Edit2: Also it was this thread you made that estimate in. :)

[Addaran]

Quick and easy ruling! Single target spells (booming blade, chromatic orb) that deals thunder are concentrated on the target so not particularly noisy. Aoe spells explodes outward, so are loud and easy to hear from afar. (300 ft for thunderwave, maybe 200 ft for those not specified?)

[Fishyninja]

120db is FAR too loud for a battle. Even 100dB is too loud, = use of outboard motor, power lawn mower, motorcycle, farm tractor, jackhammer, garbage truck. Hell even 90dB is probably too loud, that's a motorcycle from 20ft away. I mean, maybe if you've got catapult stones raining down or it's a huge mass-battle ...
http://www.industrialnoisecontrol.com/comparative-noise-examples.htm

Edit: Uh, not that I'm an expert in battle volume or anything. Or sound levels. :smallredface:

Hmm I feel it could get to those levels (I'm thinking metal on metal clanging), but again it may only be a spike in levels, would you accept an average of 60-80db?


Edit2: Also it was this thread you made that estimate in. :)

So I did..............*flees*

[Tanarii]

Hmm I feel it could get to those levels (I'm thinking metal on metal clanging), but again it may only be a spike in levels, would you accept an average of 60-80db?My estimate was about 75-85dB ... or audible as if a (somewhat loud) conversation by the time you're 20ft-80ft away.

What's interesting there is I generally assume a fight being fairly audible out to 50ft-100ft in a dungeon, provided there are open doors, and provided the (potential) opposition isn't particularly paying attention and is probably making their own noise. I may have been over-estimating it by the looks of things.