Arcane Theurge, does it worth it?

[maxwell_wolfen]

can someone persuade me why this arcane tradition from Unearthed arcana is a good choice?

any ideas welcome

[Kileonhardt]

can someone persuade me why this arcane tradition from Unearthed arcana is a good choice?

any ideas welcome

There are some decent uses from it to give you control options when you don't want to play one of the other wizard schools. The option to be the party Wizard + Life Cleric is decent.

[maxwell_wolfen]

There are some decent uses from it to give you control options when you don't want to play one of the other wizard schools. The option to be the party Wizard + Life Cleric is decent.

i was thinking something like tempest cleric. maximizing lighning spells while having both cleric and wizard spells. sounds OP but is it?

[Kileonhardt]

i was thinking something like tempest cleric. maximizing lighning spells while having both cleric and wizard spells. sounds OP but is it?

It's not really OP. It still falls in line with Abjuration, Divination, and Necromancy.

[maxwell_wolfen]

It's not really OP. It still falls in line with Abjuration, Divination, and Necromancy.

abjuration is great yeah. but in arcane theurge there may be some cleric spells that can coexist well with wizard ones. the fact that you can learn spells from both lists is damn good.

[Drackolus]

The built in channel divinity is probably too strong, but not overwhelmingly. As per sage advice, if you already have all PREVIOUS abilities, you can pick any cleric spell. This is mostly nice for arcana or knowledge, since they can learn one domain spell as a wizard and the other as a theurge, then pick any cleric spell.
The best part is, of course, that a life theurge can be a disabler, buffer, and aoe character. Good choice if the party has no other casters. Life domain is best at letting you do the healing job with less slots, letting you cast more non-healing spells. It has my favorite channel divinity option too. Throw in the healer feat and your non-slot healing will be superb.
Alternatively, the knowledge theurge is a great "generalist." A little divination focused, but it's still pretty open.

[Drackolus]

abjuration is great yeah. but in arcane theurge there may be some cleric spells that can coexist well with wizard ones. the fact that you can learn spells from both lists is damn good.

It's very good, but as a wizard most of the best spells are already on your list. Spiritual weapon is the big one, but spirit guardians is good too. But then, you could just heat metal or suggestion or phantasmal force. Tempest is arguably just a different Evoker (better early and worse late, imo).
Really, you become a theurge to be a better cleric when you are a wizard, but not really become a better wizard.

[Kileonhardt]

It's very good, but as a wizard most of the best spells are already on your list. Spiritual weapon is the big one, but spirit guardians is good too. But then, you could just heat metal or suggestion or phantasmal force. Tempest is arguably just a different Evoker (better early and worse late, imo).
Really, you become a theurge to be a better cleric when you are a wizard, but not really become a better wizard.

I look at it more as you are going to make yourself much more of a generalist when it comes to magic, both arcane and divine, rather than dedicating yourself to a specific school.

Taking it into Final Fantasy terms, Theurgy is close to a Red Mage.

[SharkForce]

the theurge channel divinity ranges from "ludicrously strong" at lower levels to "straight-up breaks the game" at higher levels if used properly (hint: don't use it to boost attack rolls).

the ability to pick the few strong cleric spells that wizards don't already get is likewise a powerful ability.

basically, theurge gives you the vast majority of what you might have hoped to get from cleric (the main exception being armour proficiency), at the cost of a wizard subclass. it is extremely strong, and if you pick the "best" domains, i would say it is stronger than any other wizard subclass by a fairly substantial margin.

[MrWesson22]

How would this work for someone who already splashed a level of cleric?

[Kileonhardt]

the theurge channel divinity ranges from "ludicrously strong" at lower levels to "straight-up breaks the game" at higher levels if used properly (hint: don't use it to boost attack rolls).

the ability to pick the few strong cleric spells that wizards don't already get is likewise a powerful ability.

basically, theurge gives you the vast majority of what you might have hoped to get from cleric (the main exception being armour proficiency), at the cost of a wizard subclass. it is extremely strong, and if you pick the "best" domains, i would say it is stronger than any other wizard subclass by a fairly substantial margin.

I wouldn't put it substantially ahead of the big 3 Wizard schools but I do agree that if you're not looking to play one of those then Theurgy flat out beats the others.


How would this work for someone who already splashed a level of cleric?

I think it's actually great to splash a level of cleric, the extra spells + medium armor and shields + whatever first level ability you get can turn out to be great. I'd almost always go Forge Cleric 1 / Theurgy Wizard 19.

[maxwell_wolfen]

the theurge channel divinity ranges from "ludicrously strong" at lower levels to "straight-up breaks the game" at higher levels if used properly (hint: don't use it to boost attack rolls).

the ability to pick the few strong cleric spells that wizards don't already get is likewise a powerful ability.

basically, theurge gives you the vast majority of what you might have hoped to get from cleric (the main exception being armour proficiency), at the cost of a wizard subclass. it is extremely strong, and if you pick the "best" domains, i would say it is stronger than any other wizard subclass by a fairly substantial margin.

can you elaborate please? which domains are best from your perspective? i am torn between that build and an abjurer. abjurers spell resistance is still without an equal

[Kileonhardt]

can you elaborate please? which domains are best from your perspective? i am torn between that build and an abjurer. abjurers spell resistance is still without an equal

Trickery is probably the top option. Getting Improved Duplicity at 14 is just amazing. Tempest holds out as being better than Evocation until level 14. Life makes you a great spot healer with all of the control of being a Wizard. Light "might" be good enough for someone focusing on fire damage once level 14, haven't actually done that one to know.

[MrWesson22]

Yeah, I'm already a life cleric 1/wizard x. I'll have to ask my DM if I could choose a different domain or how the abilities would interact if choosing the same domain given that I already have at least a few of the benefits.

[Kileonhardt]

Yeah, I'm already a life cleric 1/wizard x. I'll have to ask my DM if I could choose a different domain or how the abilities would interact if choosing the same domain given that I already have at least a few of the benefits.

Keeping Life and going Trickery would also work well.

[SharkForce]

I wouldn't put it substantially ahead of the big 3 Wizard schools but I do agree that if you're not looking to play one of those then Theurgy flat out beats the others.

there is very little that is better than a flat 2-point DC increase. add on that it doesn't cost from your normal set of resources, doesn't cost actions, doesn't require the enemy to first fail a save in the first place, and doesn't have a limit on how many saving throws it applies to (ie it is all saves for one spell regardless of how many targets that spell may have or how many times the targets need to make a save) and it gets flat-out ridiculous.

the divination portent ability is probably better at low levels (when the theurge has fewer uses and doesn't have the DC to make it nigh impossible or even literally impossible to save against their spells yet). at later levels, if you choose your spells right, you'll be getting to make sure someone (or even an entire group) fails their save (or every save for the same spell) 3 times per short rest because they can't roll a 21 and 20 isn't an automatic save... and you won't need to get a low roll to do that either. abjuration is a different sort of school, but the main advantage can be compensated for with good play (though obviously, it's always nicer to have a safety net than to not have one, and abjuration is quite good for that). necromancy... honestly probably isn't quite as good as you seem to think it is. you get to your cap of animated dead faster, and your undead are a bit tougher, but that's about it. unless of course your DM has an int 5 vampire sorcerer wandering around in his campaign or something.

a simple flat +2 DC to a spell's save can be ridiculously broken in 5e. it is powerful, but not broken, at level 2 when your DC can go up to 15 instead of the 13 most people will get. it is extremely strong, but not quite broken against most enemies, when your DC at level 9 goes up to 19 and everyone else has 17 (but there are a few enemies where if you target the right save, it's guaranteed failure, and in those cases the ability is in fact quite broken). and it is borked as hell at level 17 when you get DC 21 and anything that doesn't have at least a +1 bonus to save against your spells has no chance to make the save at all. if you get any items that boost save DC as well, it starts to reach a point where you don't have to target a weak save, you just have to not target a strong save.


can you elaborate please? which domains are best from your perspective? i am torn between that build and an abjurer. abjurers spell resistance is still without an equal

there are a lot of things to consider. each of them does something different. some are better at low level, some at high level. if there is indeed a clarification that you only need to have all spells of your current maximum level rather than all spells as the original article says (i haven't been able to find any such article, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist), then having a lot of overlap with wizard is pretty nice if your DM lets you find scrolls easily (because then you can learn the stuff on the wizard list with scrolls and you get to poach a spell at every second level instead of only after level 9). if no such clarification exists, then arguably domains that give you the "best" cleric spells will tend to be the best choices.

knowledge domain, for example, offers the ability to turn a read thoughts into a suggestion *after* finding out if the target would make their save. you also get some skill expertise that synergizes with your high intelligence, and the ability to become proficient with any skill or tool you come across for short periods of time, which can be very interesting once you get spells that let you create objects (which usually require you to be proficient in appropriate tools to make anything remotely interesting). it is a strong domain in the early game, but less strong later on (although being able to cast suggestion with no components beyond a brief invocation of your deity - with no need to mention you're invoking their aid to mind control someone - after already finding out if the person made their save is *always* an interesting ability).

life gives access to a number of the better healing and protection spells in the game, and certainly makes you a pretty good healer... and also gives easy access to spiritual weapon, which is a very easy default use of your bonus action for almost any combat. it is fairly good throughout your career.

light is pretty unimpressive early on (at low levels the biggest thing it offers to clerics would be the spell list... most of which you can already access), relatively speaking, but at level 14 (assuming your DM doesn't get upset by you getting it before an actual cleric would) you get an absolutely silly ability that lets you do some *really* mean things with spells like sunbeam (not just the damage, but the blindness can be devastating).

nature's biggest trick is probably dampen elements. unless your game features a lot of animals and plants, and ideally those animals and plants offer some interesting out-of-combat utility that can be taken advantage of in one minute or less.

tempest gives you some interesting spells and better than normal lightning nukes to look forward to.

trickery is mostly a headache. before you even look at this domain, ask your DM how trickery domain works, and what you could do with it. it might allow all kinds of crazy shenanigans, but it also might not.

war gives you an excellent spell list early on - both of the standard cleric combat spells (spiritual weapon and spirit guardians), and at later levels gives you an excellent set of resistances.

so, if you want to go tempest, you can go ahead. it has some interesting spells to offer. personally, i am not a fan of blasty wizards... if it's damage you want, there are more interesting options than wizard, in my opinion. but if you want a wizard blaster, tempest theurge is probably your best bet. certainly, i think it's more interesting as a blaster than light, for the maximized damage with lightning.

with all that said, if you're looking at abjurer's spell resistance, i can only presume you're looking at level 14 or higher. because seriously, if you're starting at level 1, well... you can look at those level 14 abilities, but don't expect to be there any time soon. and maybe not ever, a lot of campaigns end before then.

but if you are, then light could totally work. and you may want to save your channel divinity to abuse the hell out of enemies that have poor saving throw bonuses anyways, which would mean you're not going to be maximizing damage often.

[Kileonhardt]

there is very little that is better than a flat 2-point DC increase. add on that it doesn't cost from your normal set of resources, doesn't cost actions, doesn't require the enemy to first fail a save in the first place, and doesn't have a limit on how many saving throws it applies to (ie it is all saves for one spell regardless of how many targets that spell may have or how many times the targets need to make a save) and it gets flat-out ridiculous.

Obviously the Channeled Divinity is what really makes it powerful at higher levels but that's also when most main baddies have legendary resistance. For normal campaigns I still weigh Abjurer and Divination higher but for campaigns you know you're going to get high level I agree Theurgy pulls ahead, but I still don't think it's substantially farther.

[SharkForce]

most things don't have legendary resistance. even when you're fighting things that do have legendary resistance, they probably have minions that don't. and legendary resistance is not infinite, so you can still get through it with persistence. in any event, no ability is perfect all the time... an abjurer's spell resistance does absolutely nothing against a dragon's breath or an enemy bruiser smashing your face in.

and it doesn't take that long for the channel divinity to get ridiculous. even when you first get it, +2 DC is an extremely strong ability. as i noted, by the time you're level 9 you can have the save DC of a level 17 character, and there are already some enemies that have no chance whatsoever of making their saves.

[maxwell_wolfen]

excellent analysis Sharkforce!

we begin our campaign at 13 lvl. Currently i have a Sorc 10/Warlock 3 FAvored Soul/Undying light and i was thinking of playing a wizard instead. I still havent really decided.
I really like the abjurer;s spell resistance. making you a powerfull anti mage adversary (and we have lots of mage enemies)
But i like +2 DC from theurge too. I also believe warding flare from light domain and corona of light can be very good at end game levels (which we will surely reach) but i am still indecisive...

CAn you recomend a few builds starting from 13 like that?

[Jarlhen]

Related question. As part of the spells (once you've grabbed all the domain spells) can the wizard grab cleric cantrips?

[SharkForce]

excellent analysis Sharkforce!

we begin our campaign at 13 lvl. Currently i have a Sorc 10/Warlock 3 FAvored Soul/Undying light and i was thinking of playing a wizard instead. I still havent really decided.
I really like the abjurer;s spell resistance. making you a powerfull anti mage adversary (and we have lots of mage enemies)
But i like +2 DC from theurge too. I also believe warding flare from light domain and corona of light can be very good at end game levels (which we will surely reach) but i am still indecisive...

CAn you recomend a few builds starting from 13 like that?

build?

just make a level 13 wizard and use the theurge subclass. max out intelligence, then consider constitution and dexterity. you don't need any dips or anything, wizard is generally best staying single-classed clear through to the end. unless you want armour, i guess, then you could dip one level of cleric or something, but i'm not convinced it's all that worthwhile. pick spells that do what you want to do.

since you're apparently facing a lot of enemy mages, i would specifically recommend that you pick up globe of invulnerability and counterspell, but apart from that it's pretty much up to you what you want.

[maxwell_wolfen]

build?

just make a level 13 wizard and use the theurge subclass. max out intelligence, then consider constitution and dexterity. you don't need any dips or anything, wizard is generally best staying single-classed clear through to the end. unless you want armour, i guess, then you could dip one level of cleric or something, but i'm not convinced it's all that worthwhile. pick spells that do what you want to do.

since you're apparently facing a lot of enemy mages, i would specifically recommend that you pick up globe of invulnerability and counterspell, but apart from that it's pretty much up to you what you want.

i havent decided yet but i will probably not add a cleric level. but i yet have to choose between the theurge and abjurer

[jaappleton]

i was thinking something like tempest cleric. maximizing lighning spells while having both cleric and wizard spells. sounds OP but is it?

I've done exactly this.

It's immensely OP.

I turned boss encounters into laughing stocks.

With a third level spell slot, a Tempest Cleric can max one strike of Call Lightning for 30 points of damage.
I created a 5' wide, 100ft long line of lightning with Lightning Bolt for 48 damage.

Chain Lightning is 80 damage.

It is ridiculous. I love the IDEA of the Theurge, but as it is... It's ridiculous.

"I'm out of Channel Divinity, need to rest!"
Leomund's Tiny Hut as a Ritual. Oh, and Arcane Recovery to recover some spell slots.

It's like a never ending chain of destruction and making allies feel small.

[maxwell_wolfen]

I've done exactly this.

It's immensely OP.

I turned boss encounters into laughing stocks.

With a third level spell slot, a Tempest Cleric can max one strike of Call Lightning for 30 points of damage.
I created a 5' wide, 100ft long line of lightning with Lightning Bolt for 48 damage.

Chain Lightning is 80 damage.

It is ridiculous. I love the IDEA of the Theurge, but as it is... It's ridiculous.

it can get even more ridiculous in high levels. where you can shapechange into dragon (i dont remember which one does electric damage with breath) and maximize its breath damage..

[jaappleton]

it can get even more ridiculous in high levels. where you can shapechange into dragon (i dont remember which one does electric damage with breath) and maximize its breath damage..

Right.

So think about what you're doing.

You're going to create an overpowered character. And your DM will likely throw tougher things at your party to compensate.

And your party member won't be able to keep up with the arms race that's now begun between yourself and the DM.

You might get a party member killed in this.

[maxwell_wolfen]

difficult choice..corona of light is great also., combined with your +2 DC and giving disadvantage to enemies against fire or radiant spells means that they are 100% effective most times.

[Kileonhardt]

difficult choice..corona of light is great also., combined with your +2 DC and giving disadvantage to enemies against fire or radiant spells means that they are 100% effective most times.

If you're going for blasting then Light is probably the best way to go since you're starting at 13. Although Death might be fun if your DM would allow it.

[Ruslan]

can someone persuade me why this arcane tradition from Unearthed arcana is a good choice?


Only if you have the urge to try it out.... never mind, I'll see myself out

[jaappleton]

difficult choice..corona of light is great also., combined with your +2 DC and giving disadvantage to enemies against fire or radiant spells means that they are 100% effective most times.

At lv14, blasting Sunbeam would be a ton of fun.

[nilshai]

Related question. As part of the spells (once you've grabbed all the domain spells) can the wizard grab cleric cantrips?

No, only Spells that use Spell Slots can be picked.