Prestigious Spellcaster feat - woah, what!?

[Grim Reader]

So for 3.P games, there is apparently the feat Prestigious Spellcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster). From my reading of it, it lest you fill in a level of lost spellcasting in a casting PrC that doesn't have 10/10 advancement.

So.. Sand Shaper dip without losing a caster level. Eldritch Knight and Knight of the Raven becomes 10/10 casting. Swiftblade is better. Eldritch Disciple, Enlightened Fist, Sacred Fist... the list goes on. Am I just nuts here? Does the feat do what I think it does?

[Muggins]

It'll take two feats, but yes; this works just like you think it does. Nice find.

[Vhaidara]

So for 3.P games, there is apparently the feat Prestigious Spellcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster). From my reading of it, it lest you fill in a level of lost spellcasting in a casting PrC that doesn't have 10/10 advancement.

So.. Sand Shaper dip without losing a caster level. Eldritch Knight and Knight of the Raven becomes 10/10 casting. Swiftblade is better. Eldritch Disciple, Enlightened Fist, Sacred Fist... the list goes on. Am I just nuts here? Does the feat do what I think it does?

Well, I forget the progressions on all of those, but you might have missed one important detail.
"You can select the Prestigious Spellcaster feat multiple times. Each time you select the Prestigious Spellcaster feat, your effective caster level increases by 1."

So after the initial tax of a feat, you can buy back caster (and spell) levels for 1 feat each. 4 feats turns a 7/10 class into 10/10, for example.

[Grim Reader]

Well, I forget the progressions on all of those, but you might have missed one important detail.
"You can select the Prestigious Spellcaster feat multiple times. Each time you select the Prestigious Spellcaster feat, your effective caster level increases by 1."

So after the initial tax of a feat, you can buy back caster (and spell) levels for 1 feat each. 4 feats turns a 7/10 class into 10/10, for example.

I thought it was written with that intention, but I think it was a bit confused. As it stands, I think multiple iterations of the feat beyond the first only increases caster level?

[Particle_Man]

Wow! Dragon Disciple suddenly got a lot more interesting.

[Grim Reader]

Anyone else reading it as you can fill in multiple levels of lost spellcasting?

[Segev]

Anyone else reading it as you can fill in multiple levels of lost spellcasting?

That is absolutely what the feat does, as written and likely by intent. Take the feat N times to recover N levels of spellcasting from a (10-N)/10 PrC.

[martixy]

Goes great with "practiced spellcaster" on half-progression classes.

[Segev]

Goes great with "practiced spellcaster" on half-progression classes.

Not really. Neither can exceed your total HD, and Prestigious Spellcaster's full progression overlaps with Practiced Spellcaster's CL increase.

Though I suppose it's more economical to do Prestigious+Practiced for a +5 to CL and a +1 to spells/day than to do 5 Prestigious Spellcaster feats for 5 +1s to spells/day AND CL.

[Xethik]

Yup, Paths of the Righteous had a lot of nice PrCs in it and added two feats (the other being a prereq for this one). There was some good discussion on Pathfinder PrCs that this was good for in the product thread, but do note this won't help you in a like... Wizard 4/Fighter 1/Abjurant Champion 10. The lost spell known level needs to come from the PrC itself.

Also, I don't think the wording takes into account Theurge classes like Ultimate Magus, so it's iffy how it would work for that.

How do most people playing 3.P handle the Favored Class bonus part? Do people just normally use the Pathfinder method?

As for another 3.5 class that could benefit, I wouldn't mind having this on a War Weaver build. Not worth the 2 feats on a Bard/Sublime Chord that eats that spell known loss before Sublime Chord, but good on a more standard caster build.

[Grim Reader]

Yup, Paths of the Righteous had a lot of nice PrCs in it and added two feats (the other being a prereq for this one). There was some good discussion on Pathfinder PrCs that this was good for in the product thread, but do note this won't help you in a like... Wizard 4/Fighter 1/Abjurant Champion 10. The lost spell known level needs to come from the PrC itself

Well if you can do Abjurant Champion 10, I think you can handle a lost spell level :)


Also, I don't think the wording takes into account Theurge classes like Ultimate Magus, so it's iffy how it would work for that.

Not for Ultimate magus, I think, but for the Invocation using Theurges, you should be able to add spellcasting to an Invocations-only level.


How do most people playing 3.P handle the Favored Class bonus part? Do people just normally use the Pathfinder method?

I think it depends if you are playing 3.5 with Pathfinder options added, or Pathfinder with 3.5 also allowed.


As for another 3.5 class that could benefit, I wouldn't mind having this on a War Weaver build. Not worth the 2 feats on a Bard/Sublime Chord that eats that spell known loss before Sublime Chord, but good on a more standard caster build.

No, SC recovers that on its own, effectively...

Anyway, so 10/10 Sand Shaper, Master Transmogrifist, Green Star Adept, Entropomancer, Swiftblade... the list goes on.

[Jack_Simth]

So for 3.P games, there is apparently the feat Prestigious Spellcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster). From my reading of it, it lest you fill in a level of lost spellcasting in a casting PrC that doesn't have 10/10 advancement.

So.. Sand Shaper dip without losing a caster level. Eldritch Knight and Knight of the Raven becomes 10/10 casting. Swiftblade is better. Eldritch Disciple, Enlightened Fist, Sacred Fist... the list goes on. Am I just nuts here? Does the feat do what I think it does?

Oh... seems to do what you think. You pay the first feat tax (and it's... somewhat useful), take a level in a PrC that loses some caster progression, and get one level of casting back per feat. Provided that the casting loss is from the PrC itself. Doesn't help for that fighter level you took to qualify for that PrC, just from the PrC itself.

Useful, but feat-intensive. You'll need to think carefully if it's worth the cost, especially in Pathfinder where the base classes also get nice things.

[Xethik]

Well if you can do Abjurant Champion 10, I think you can handle a lost spell level :)

Hah, brain farted. But hopefully my point came across. You can't apply it if you lost a spell known level from a class you took to meet the Prestige Class requirements.



Not for Ultimate magus, I think, but for the Invocation using Theurges, you should be able to add spellcasting to an Invocations-only level.

That is true. Though technically it works on any class that doesn't have the feature named Spells Per Day. I guess the feat requires some adapting because a "Spell Per Day" labeled column or class feature is not standard for 3.5 PrC. I think most of them have a Spellcasting one, instead? I could be wrong.



I think it depends if you are playing 3.5 with Pathfinder options added, or Pathfinder with 3.5 also allowed.

Fair point. The core of my question was that the pre-req feat is intended to work as the Pathfinder favored class system, but just gives +1 hp/skill which is pretty nice for a 3.5 game.



No, SC recovers that on its own, effectively...

Yup. Same for things like Sand Shaper that are popular dips for a build like that.



Anyway, so 10/10 Sand Shaper, Master Transmogrifist, Green Star Adept, Entropomancer, Swiftblade... the list goes on.
Exactly. There is a question of is it worth it? The more caster levels recovered, the more use you are getting out of the slightly underwhelming pre-req feat. If you go from 9/10 to 10/10, you are spending 2 feats for 1 caster level. 0.5 CL per feat, essentially. If you go from 5/10 to 10/10, you are spending 6 feats for 5 caster levels, or 0.83 CL per feat. But you are spending 6 feats, so those class features need to make up for those feats.

A bit of an exaggeration, but hopefully it gets my point across. I just feel like a lot of these half-caster PrCs don't have features that stack up to the feats available in a 3.P game.

[Particle_Man]

If I am reading this correctly, could one take this feat in advance (even though it would do nothing)?

If so, it makes sense to go sorcerer 5 then DD. If not, then it might make sense to to go sorcerer 6 then DD, so that one never loses a caster level.

[Grim Reader]

If I am reading this correctly, could one take this feat in advance (even though it would do nothing)?

If so, it makes sense to go sorcerer 5 then DD. If not, then it might make sense to to go sorcerer 6 then DD, so that one never loses a caster level.

You can take it retroactively in any case. It'll fill in a previous level without spellcasing.

[Particle_Man]

True but if you can "bank" the feat ahead of time (proactively?) then you don't spend any levels behind the spellcasting curve, whereas if you take it retroactively you spend at least one level behind the curve.

[gr8artist]

Wait wait wait


The transition into a spellcasting prestige class is less difficult for you, and because of this, you gain 1 additional effective spellcaster level from your prestige class levels.

Prerequisite(s): Favored Prestige Class with selected prestige class.

Benefit(s): The first time you gain a level in your favored prestige class and the spells per day class feature does not grant an increase in effective level for the purpose of casting spells, you gain new spells per day as if the prestige class did grant +1 level of spellcasting for that level. This effect is retroactive if you gain this feat at a level beyond the point where your favored prestige class would normally have not advanced your spellcasting.

The Prestigious Spellcaster feat does not have any effect if your favored prestige class does not have the spells per day class feature, or if it does have the spells per day class feature but already grants a level increase for every level of the prestige class (as do the arcane trickster and loremaster prestige classes).

Special: You can select the Prestigious Spellcaster feat multiple times. Each time you select the Prestigious Spellcaster feat, your effective caster level increases by 1.

However, regardless of the number of times you choose this feat, the total increase to your effective caster level cannot exceed your actual prestige class level.

This feat also applies to prestige classes that grant extracts per day instead of spells per day.

First time: You gain +1 level of Spells / Day AND +1 to effective caster level.
Other times: You gain ONLY +1 to effective caster level.

[martixy]

Wait wait wait



First time: You gain +1 level of Spells / Day AND +1 to effective caster level.
Other times: You gain ONLY +1 to effective caster level.

Good spot. This makes taking it more than once utterly pointless in the presence of Practiced spellcaster(how many PrC are less than half progression, or with more than 5 levels).

[Crake]

Wait wait wait



First time: You gain +1 level of Spells / Day AND +1 to effective caster level.
Other times: You gain ONLY +1 to effective caster level.

That was already mentioned earlier in the thread, but people seem to agree pretty well that the intention is that each subsequent time also adds spells/day.

[Vhaidara]

Good spot. This makes taking it more than once utterly pointless in the presence of Practiced spellcaster(how many PrC are less than half progression, or with more than 5 levels).

There's also the fact that PF doesn't have Practiced Spellcaster

[Segev]

Wait wait wait



First time: You gain +1 level of Spells / Day AND +1 to effective caster level.
Other times: You gain ONLY +1 to effective caster level.


Good spot. This makes taking it more than once utterly pointless in the presence of Practiced spellcaster(how many PrC are less than half progression, or with more than 5 levels).


That was already mentioned earlier in the thread, but people seem to agree pretty well that the intention is that each subsequent time also adds spells/day.

Not only is that almost certainly the intention, but reading the feat as a whole leaves it present in the RAW. Earlier, the feat talks about "increase in effective level for the purpose of casting spells." The "Special" part refers to "effective caster level." In context, that's therefore the effective level to which they're referring.

Now, you can still read it the other way, but if you do, the feat gets even less attractive, because its FIRST time being taken only gives spells/day, but not a caster level increase. If you read it with that level of precision such that it requires spelling out both aspects every time.

[Grim Reader]

Hm, as a small additional thing, the gateway feat, Favored Prestige Class can only be taken for one PrC, so you can't dip several PrCs with reduced spellcasting. The benefits from it are specifically not favoured class bonuses, though. So it should be cumulative with Multitalented Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/multitalented-mastery-half-elf).

Which is itself written in such a way that it might in some cases give its bonuses in addition to your normal Favored Class bonuses.

[Grim Reader]

So... I go Bard 7, Fighter 1. Then I take a level of Eldritch Knight, which has "-" no spellcasting advancement at level 1. I take Favored Prestige Class as my feat. Any class for level 10 really.

For level 11. I take Sublime Chord. Then at level 12, I continue Eldritch Knight, raising Sublime Chord with the progression.

But I take Prestigous Spellcaster as my feat, filling in the EK level 1 -and raising SC with it!

Does bootstrapping my SC casting by 1 extra level like that work?

[tedcahill2]

you gain new spells per day as if the prestige class did grant +1 level of spellcasting for that level

The above text from the feat seem to say you only get additional spells per day. It doesn't increase spells known (for spontaneous casters), and it doesn't increase caster level.

So, is it just really poorly worded?

[zergling.exe]

The above text from the feat seem to say you only get additional spells per day. It doesn't increase spells known (for spontaneous casters), and it doesn't increase caster level.

So, is it just really poorly worded?

The special section tells you that you get a caster level every time you take the feat, so that part's covered. Which actually is uncapped because it doesn't specify one, nor does it say that you only get it when your class doesn't advance spellcasting!

Also try not to necromance threads from 3 months ago guys.

[Psyren]

The above text from the feat seem to say you only get additional spells per day. It doesn't increase spells known (for spontaneous casters), and it doesn't increase caster level.

So, is it just really poorly worded?

"Each time you select the Prestigious Spellcaster feat, your effective caster level increases by 1."


The special section tells you that you get a caster level every time you take the feat, so that part's covered. Which actually is uncapped because it doesn't specify one, nor does it say that you only get it when your class doesn't advance spellcasting!

Also try not to necromance threads from 3 months ago guys.

There is a cap:

"However, regardless of the number of times you choose this feat, the total increase to your effective caster level cannot exceed your actual prestige class level."

[zergling.exe]

There is a cap:

"However, regardless of the number of times you choose this feat, the total increase to your effective caster level cannot exceed your actual prestige class level."

Welp, I totally forgot to read that line. Still not capped by the number of times you don't get spellcasting levels. Though dumping 10 feats into it to get a +10 from a 10 level class is kind of excessive and uses up most of your feats.

[Psyren]

Yeah it's best used on something that loses 1-4 CL I'd say. More than that and you're starting to be just be better off with something else.

But hey, we fixed True Necromancer!

[Segev]

While we do like to play technically-correct rules lawyer around here, there are two ways to read the feat. One is that the "increase to your effective spellcaster level" is that given by iterations of this feat. This would theoretically allow you to take, say, 14 increases on 14 feats (if you could get that many feats) with True Necromancer.

However, the other way to read it, which is almost certainly RAI as well as a correct way to read the RAW, is that this "total increase" refers to those granted by iterations of this feat PLUS those granted by the PrC in question, which means you can, at best, take the feat enough times to turn a non full-spellcasting-advancement PrC into a full-advancement PrC.



Incidentally, another bit of bad wording that is occasionally brought up for the cheesy loophole it creates is the Green Star Adept, and the fact that, despite the fact that it only has a full caster level's worth of spell-advancement benefits on 5 of its 10 levels, its text says that you gain +1 CL at each of its 10 levels. And the way it's worded, that's a separate bonus from the full +1 every other level, meaning you technically would be getting +15 to your CL (but only +5 to your spells/day and spells known) over its 10 levels.

Would this feat interact with it to grant an additional +1 level for spells/day, spells known, and CL, making it a full 10:10 spellcasting advancement class that gives +20 CL over its ten levels?

[Psyren]

I take the less cheesy/pedantic reading of GSA that it only gives 10 CL total (5 of which also advance spells known/daily progression), rather than 10+5 = 15. And for once we clearly know what RAI is because of the example given (CArc pg. 42):

"For example, a 5th-level wizard/4th-level Green Star adept’s caster level would be 9th, due to this ability, but he would only have access to 4th-level spells (5th-level wizard plus two arcane spellcasting class levels from being a 4th-level Green Star adept)."

Using your reading, that GSA would have CL 11 rather than 9: 5 from Wizard, 4 from GSA levels, and then 2 from the even levels that give casting progression. But in WotC's calculation, the 2 was already included in the 4.

Ergo by RAI with this feat, the Improved Caster Level feature would simply be redundant.



But your broader question here is whether this feat could lead to unintended/questionable interactions when combined with 3.5 material... and the answer is yes, yes it could.

[Particle_Man]

While we do like to play technically-correct rules lawyer around here, there are two ways to read the feat. One is that the "increase to your effective spellcaster level" is that given by iterations of this feat. This would theoretically allow you to take, say, 14 increases on 14 feats (if you could get that many feats) with True Necromancer.

However, the other way to read it, which is almost certainly RAI as well as a correct way to read the RAW, is that this "total increase" refers to those granted by iterations of this feat PLUS those granted by the PrC in question, which means you can, at best, take the feat enough times to turn a non full-spellcasting-advancement PrC into a full-advancement PrC.

Yep, James Jacobs makes it clear what RAI was:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7dt?Prestigious-Spellcaster-Feat-Questions#1

[Troacctid]

So... I go Bard 7, Fighter 1. Then I take a level of Eldritch Knight, which has "-" no spellcasting advancement at level 1. I take Favored Prestige Class as my feat. Any class for level 10 really.

For level 11. I take Sublime Chord. Then at level 12, I continue Eldritch Knight, raising Sublime Chord with the progression.

But I take Prestigous Spellcaster as my feat, filling in the EK level 1 -and raising SC with it!

Does bootstrapping my SC casting by 1 extra level like that work?
It doesn't work because:

you gain new spells per day as if the prestige class did grant +1 level of spellcasting for that level
The increased level of spellcasting is granted as if it were at the level that did not originally progress your casting. At that time, the only legal class to advance was Bard, so you'd get an extra effective level of Bard.