Optimize Miko (Monk/Paladin optimizing)

[Morphic tide]

So, I haven't seen any threads talking about optimizing OotS characters. We have threads talking about their likely builds, but none talking about optimizing them within the basic classes they have and restrictions they have made.

Let's try to optimize Miko, the Monk/Paladin multiclass. There's a few things that need to be layed out here:

No levels in things other than Monk, Paladin and any PRC that progresses both in some way. Casting progression counts for the Paladin, anything relating to Unarmed counts for Monk, on top of more obvious prerequisite and ability progression things.

Try to use the things Monks and Paladins have. Try to take advantage of Flurry, Smite and Unarmed attack damage.

Class variants and AFCs are fine, as long as they don't cause the alignment requirements to change. So Monk Fighting Styles are fine, Paladin of Tyranny isn't.

First and second party only, any splat allowed. All the weird tricks that WotC and Dragon Magazine have made over the years available to a Monk/Paladin are fine.

2/3 standard WBL for the GP budget. Anything WotC and Dragon have published can be used for GP spending.

Try to have the build be functional at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20. Prioritize the lower levels over the higher ones if you have problems, because this is intended mostly to be Practical Optimization.

33 point buy on the attributes. Yes, it's rather high, but it gives a bit more than the standard play choice of 30 to help mitigate MAD.

Begin optimizing Monk/Paladin within these restrictions.

[danielxcutter]

I think there was a feat called Aesetic Knight or something that lets Paladin and Monk levels stack for unarmed damage progress.

[Crake]

I think there was a feat called Aesetic Knight or something that lets Paladin and Monk levels stack for unarmed damage progress.

And also lets them both freely multiclass between the two, since normally both classes cannot progress once you multiclass out.

[Morphic tide]

I think there was a feat called Aesetic Knight or something that lets Paladin and Monk levels stack for unarmed damage progress.

Which would be basically mandatory for an optimized Monk/Paladin that cares about Unarmed damage.


And also lets them both freely multiclass between the two, since normally both classes cannot progress once you multiclass out.

This makes it even more mandatory.

As for some advice on breakaway points between Paladin and Monk, as both have the retarded multiclassing restriction when you don't grab Aesetic Knight, I have a few ideas for that:

Paladin 5: You get your second daily use of Smite and the special mount at this level. You also have your first casting abilities, provided you didn't dump Cha. Also, Lay on Hands, Turn Undead, Detect Evil, Divine Grace and Aura of Courage.

Paladin 11: Third use of Smite and two weekly uses of Remove Disease. More important is twice the Lay on Hands pool over Paladin 5 and access to 3rd level spells.

Monk 4: Two bonus feats, Flurry, Evasion, Slow Fall 20ft, Still Mind, Ki Strike (Magic) and 1d8 Unarmed damage. Fairly good, with a bunch of frontloaded stuff.

Monk 11: One more bonus feat, 1d10 unarmed damage, Purity of Body(pointless for Paladin 3), Improved Evasion, Ki Strike (Lawful), Diamond body and Greater Flurry.

Overall, a 11/9 split looks best because of what comes in at level 11 for each. Variant classes and feat access may shift good exit points, but these are only the base classes abilities taken into consideration.

Edit: Cleave is a rather good feat overall for Monk/Paladin, considering the things it can chain with. You can Smite to useyour to-hit bonus based on Cha for a far more likely to hit attack, then get off a second attack off the same standard action. If it works for Unarmed attacks, then you have your unarmed damage carried along for the ride. If one can Flurry-Cleave-Smite, then you have some rather large attack numbers to throw around.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would take two levels in Argent Fist. It is essentially Ascetic Knight: The Class (to the point that you can replace that feat, if you already have it), and allows you to get your wisdom to AC in heavy armour, and treat all weapons you wield as ki focus. Entry is pretty much monk 2/paladin 4, with the possibility of monk 2/cleric 1 and some other source of Smite Evil.

[Morphic tide]

I would take two levels in Argent Fist. It is essentially Ascetic Knight: The Class (to the point that you can replace that feat, if you already have it), and allows you to get your wisdom to AC in heavy armour, and treat all weapons you wield as ki focus. Entry is pretty much monk 2/paladin 4, with the possibility of monk 2/cleric 1 and some other source of Smite Evil.

I'm wanting a 1 to 20 build here made to function at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20. The fact that you can replace Ascetic Knight when you take Argent Fist levels is great because it lets one delay Argent Fist for no real cost. Seriously, you can have Ascetic Knight at level 3, to use it for your level 4 build state, then switch over to Argent Fist for the level 8 build.

Edit: The reason for the level brackets is for the sake of enforcing PO. If a build is only good at level 16, then it will see very little play outside of campaigns where your character starts at somewhere above level 14, because you need to actually get there. I, personally, have experience with games falling apart before level 10, so being able to actually work at level 4 is important.

Edit 2: One place to find a lot of Monk improving feats that don't technically require you to be a Monk, then look at this. (lawlnope) It has a list of stuff that uses Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.

E3: Was not aware of illegal links...

[Waker]

No mention of Serenity from Dragon Compendium? The feat lets your divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil, and turn undead run off of Wisdom instead of Charisma.

[Morphic tide]

No mention of Serenity from Dragon Compendium? The feat lets your divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil, and turn undead run off of Wisdom instead of Charisma.

That... solves most of the MAD problems. Does Paladin casting run on Charisma or Wisdom? If it runs off Charisma, then there is a minimum Charisma needed for some things to be available, as you need to have spell slots. But you don't need to pump Charisma massively, so it's still better off. For most purposes, 14 Charisma is enough, allowing for 2nd level spells at a practical level.

[LordOfCain]

Edit 2: One place to find a lot of Monk improving feats that don't technically require you to be a Monk, then look at this It has a list of stuff that uses Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.

The link provided was to a DnDTools mirror, which due to the illegality of DnDTools, is banned on this forum.

[Morphic tide]

The link provided was to a DnDTools mirror, which due to the illegality of DnDTools, is banned on this forum.

Wasn't aware of illegal links being a thing... Can you point towards a site with a similar setup that is 'legal,' if one exists? Is the illegality a forum thing, or an actual IRL law thing?

[Waker]

That... solves most of the MAD problems. Does Paladin casting run on Charisma or Wisdom? If it runs off Charisma, then there is a minimum Charisma needed for some things to be available, as you need to have spell slots. But you don't need to pump Charisma massively, so it's still better off. For most purposes, 14 Charisma is enough, allowing for 2nd level spells at a practical level.

In 3.5, Paladin spellcasting was based entirely off of Wisdom. In PF, they changed it to Charisma.

[LordOfCain]

Wasn't aware of illegal links being a thing... Can you point towards a site with a similar setup that is 'legal,' if one exists? Is the illegality a forum thing, or an actual IRL law thing?

It's an actual IRL law thing: copyright. DnDtools hosts hosted? non-OGL material. I don't know of any similar legal sites.

[Morphic tide]

In 3.5, Paladin spellcasting was based entirely off of Wisdom. In PF, they changed it to Charisma.

So basically the Serenity feat makes Paladins entirely SAD for non-mundane-combat things? While PF fixed the issue the other way and made them SAD by shifting the one out of place thing?

[Waker]

So basically the Serenity feat makes Paladins entirely SAD for non-mundane-combat things? While PF fixed the issue the other way and made them SAD by shifting the one out of place thing?

More or less. Having to waste a feat hurts, but getting to completely ignore Charisma helps the MAD issue.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The thing is, Miko isn't much of a Monk. She jumps and dodges, but mostly she fights with swords, armor, and Smites. That being said,

The mobility is important, so we should grab both the Standing Jump and Wall Walker ACFs from Dungeonscape.
Serenity, for obvious SAD reasons.
Whirling Steel Strike lets you flurry with a longsword, as Miko does, and as per ECS can be picked up as your second level Monk bonus feat. Miko fights with swords, not fists; this is kind of important. She makes a lot of attacks with swords; she'll probably stack TWF was well.
If possible, we should drop a level of Shiba Protector; it helps the MADness by letting us do a Wis/Dex build and still do solid damage. Weapon Finesse and a Feycraft Longsword means you should have a nice bit of accuracy to make up for all the attack penalties you'll be taking.



Wasn't aware of illegal links being a thing... Can you point towards a site with a similar setup that is 'legal,' if one exists? Is the illegality a forum thing, or an actual IRL law thing?
It contains a ton of copyrighted material; the original site got taken down a while ago, I think.

[Morphic tide]

More of less. Having to waste a feat hurts, but getting to completely ignore Charisma helps the MAD issue.

Well, the feat makes basically everything run on the physical stats and your Wis score. It's a rather large change that makes the class in general and Monk multiclassing in particular quite a bit better, so it's a good use of the feat slot.


It's an actual IRL law thing: copyright. DnDtools hosts hosted? non-OGL material. I don't know of any similar legal sites.

Can anyone actually cite the laws that make an online, non-profit, entirely free index violate copyright? Because it's a hideous mire of legal shutdowns at-will if the free online index is illegal, as there is no real legal difference between the index with citations and the quotes with citations. Because DnDTools is, legally, no different from a wiki or fan made FAQ site, unless there are legal technicalities that specifically say otherwise. Wikia has images, highly detailed plot information, setting information and many, many discussions about thousands of series.


It contains a ton of copyrighted material; the original site got taken down a while ago, I think.

Wikia has more. By several orders of magnitude. Sure, it's not entirely made of quotes, but it has much, much more copyrighted stuff, from series owned by much more trigger happy companies than WotC.

[Inevitability]

Can anyone actually cite the laws that make an online, non-profit, entirely free index violate copyright? Because it's a hideous mire of legal shutdowns at-will if the free online index is illegal, as there is no real legal difference between the index with citations and the quotes with citations. Because DnDTools is, legally, no different from a wiki or fan made FAQ site, unless there are legal technicalities that specifically say otherwise. Wikia has images, highly detailed plot information, setting information and many, many discussions about thousands of series.

The legality of DnD Tools notwithstanding, forum policy forbids linking to it. If you feel like that rule should be changed, take it up with the moderators.

[Siosilvar]

Can anyone actually cite the laws that make an online, non-profit, entirely free index violate copyright? -snip-

Somebody probably can, but not here as that would probably constitute legal advice.


Wikia has more. By several orders of magnitude. Sure, it's not entirely made of quotes, but it has much, much more copyrighted stuff, from series owned by much more trigger happy companies than WotC.

"They did it too!" is not an argument.

[animewatcha]

If ilmater is your deity then monk 3 gives up still mind for lay on hands that stacks with paly. Also, I think paladin 10 has a lay on hands upgrade.

[Morphic tide]

"They did it too!" is not an argument.

It does apply to how law works, because law cares not who does something and rarely cares about why or how they did it. It's not an argument of "why is this illegal?" but one of "why is this other thing legal?" If the answer to the question is "**** if I know." then there is clearly some problems with the situation.

[Esprit15]

Are we optimizing Miko specifically, or the concept of a Monk/Paladin? If it's the latter, I would recommend the Saint template if LA buy off is in effect.

[Morphic tide]

Are we optimizing Miko specifically, or the concept of a Monk/Paladin? If it's the latter, I would recommend the Saint template if LA buy off is in effect.

Mainly Monk/Paladin in general, but Miko's combat style within that framework is also a thing to optimize. Namely the high mobility Paladin idea that seems to be Miko's combat style. If you want to optimize Miko's combat style in particular, feel free! Just remember to use the rules in the OP.

[Jack_McSnatch]

You can't smite on a full attack, so trade flurry of blows for decisive strike from phb 2. -2 to hit for x2 damage on one attack? Yes please.

Edit: It also doesn't specify what weapons you can use. Combine with charging smite, leap attack, and the great falchion, or go the mounted combat route for something like x6 damage with a lance

Edited edit: I was wrong, it does specify. Hammer fist and leap attack maybe?

[ShurikVch]

How about the Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)?

[Flickerdart]

How about the Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)?

A pure monk cannot enter, since it requires the ability to turn undead.

Paladin/Monk is doable. Minimize your Monk levels - Paladin 18/Monk 2 with Serenity, max out your unarmed damage with Ascetic Knight then use Scorpion Kamas to stab people with it. You qualify for a CR14 flying mount using the exotic mount rules in the DMG, so couatls are fair game, and they can learn greater mighty wallop which you can then share back with them. Talk to your DM to see if the 4 bonus HD the couatl gets also progress its native racial spellcasting.

[ShurikVch]

A pure monk cannot enter, since it requires the ability to turn undead.Holy Monk (Dragon #310): Aura of Courage, Smite Evil, Turn Undead - all "as Paladin"; may multiclass between Paladin and Monk with no penalty; levels in Holy Monk stack with Paladin to determining daily uses of Smite Evil and effective turning level; lose bonus feats at 1st and 6th levels

[Morphic tide]

If ilmater is your deity then monk 3 gives up still mind for lay on hands that stacks with paly. Also, I think paladin 10 has a lay on hands upgrade.

Where is that, and what is the rules text?


A pure monk cannot enter, since it requires the ability to turn undead.

Remember, there is a rule against PRCs that fail to progress both Monk and Paladin. This is about Monk/Paladin, not "What PRC monster can be made from Monk/Paladin prerequisites." Granted, that's mainly for the Optimal Miko.


Paladin/Monk is doable. Minimize your Monk levels - Paladin 18/Monk 2 with Serenity, max out your unarmed damage with Ascetic Knight then use Scorpion Kamas to stab people with it. You qualify for a CR14 flying mount using the exotic mount rules in the DMG, so couatls are fair game, and they can learn greater mighty wallop which you can then share back with them. Talk to your DM to see if the 4 bonus HD the couatl gets also progress its native racial spellcasting.

I fail to see the need to reduce to only 2 levels of Monk. It's not like Paladin cares about it's last three or four levels in a meaningful way. You have all of two things past level 15, and they are just more uses of abilities, one being the capstone and the other being uses per week. Monk 4 is the optimal breakaway point, if you don't grab PRCs. You get Ki Strike, Still Mind and Slow Fall and lose only one BAB, no different from Monk 2's losses. You don't even lose any 4th level spell slots over Monk 2, and there are PRCs and AFCs that fill in most of the other scaling losses.

Also, what does your proposed build actually use from Monk that can't be done by a Fighter 2/Paladin 18 that paid for Improved Unarmed Strike and Evasion? There's precedent for effective Monk levels not needing actual Monk levels to get the Unarmed advantages.


Holy Monk (Dragon #310): Aura of Courage, Smite Evil, Turn Undead - all "as Paladin"; may multiclass between Paladin and Monk with no penalty; levels in Holy Monk stack with Paladin to determining daily uses of Smite Evil and effective turning level; lose bonus feats at 1st and 6th levels

Wait, all that stuff comes from just losing 2 bonus feats? No other cost? In that case, there's no downside to grabbing that archetype that means much. And it fills in most loss of progression from Monk levels. And allows earlier entry to some of the PRCs, thanks to not needing... Well, any Paladin levels for most of them.

So, for the basic class layout, I'm thinking Holy Monk 3/Paladin 15/Argent Fist 2. What order is a big question to consider, as well. It matters quite a bit when actually playing. Anyone got other PRCs, AFCs and feats?

[SirNibbles]

The thing is, Miko isn't much of a Monk. She jumps and dodges, but mostly she fights with swords, armor, and Smites. That being said,

The mobility is important, so we should grab both the Standing Jump and Wall Walker ACFs from Dungeonscape.
Serenity, for obvious SAD reasons.
Whirling Steel Strike lets you flurry with a longsword, as Miko does, and as per ECS can be picked up as your second level Monk bonus feat. Miko fights with swords, not fists; this is kind of important. She makes a lot of attacks with swords; she'll probably stack TWF was well.
If possible, we should drop a level of Shiba Protector; it helps the MADness by letting us do a Wis/Dex build and still do solid damage. Weapon Finesse and a Feycraft Longsword means you should have a nice bit of accuracy to make up for all the attack penalties you'll be taking.



It contains a ton of copyrighted material; the original site got taken down a while ago, I think.

Unarmoured is better.
Serenity, yes.
Whirling Steel Strike is worse than Unorthodox Flurry (Dragon #279) and requires more feats.
Shiba Protector to add Wis to hit/damage is good, but has too many feat taxes. 3 useless feats and a loss of BAB. (You need 16 BAB at level 20 for maximum attacks so you can only drop 4. Monk 1 and 5 each drop 1, so you're pretty tight. Combat Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5 is better for increasing your unarmed damage and general versatility.

Additional options:
A 1 level dip of Ninja of the Crescent Moon adds Dex and Wis to AC on top of your normal Monk bonus, when unarmoured, plus you get +1d6 sneak. A second level gets you Improved Evasion, if you really feel you need it. Your NOTCM levels also stack with Monk levels when calculating AC bonus from the Monk table.

The Sidewinder Monk variant class trades out mostly useless/defensive features (Slow Fall, Disease Immunity) for 1d6 sneak every 3 levels. You're going to be making all your saves so you don't care about disease. If you do, you gain immunity at Paladin 3 anyhow. However, the bonus feat choices for that variant class are terrible so you are almost forced to take the Martial Monk ACF to be able to choose good feats at 1/2/6.

__

With 20 Wis/16 Dex/10 Con you have the following bonuses:
+5 to all saves (Paladin+Serenity)
+5 to AC (Monk)
+5 to AC (NOTCM WIS)
+1 to AC (Monk)
+3 to AC (DEX)
+3 to AC (NOTCM DEX)
+5 to hit (Intuitive Strike, replaces STR)

9th level build:

Martial Sidewinder Monk 5/Paladin 3/NOTCM 1

Extremely high AC and touch AC (27/27), very high saves (+12/+15/+15), 3 attacks per full attack, 3d8 damage with an unarmed strike (with Monk's Belt, Improved Natural Attack, and Superior Unarmed Strike), and 2d6 sneak attack damage.

[Morphic tide]

Unarmoured is better.
Serenity, yes.
Whirling Steel Strike is worse than Unorthodox Flurry (Dragon #279) and requires more feats.
Shiba Protector to add Wis to hit/damage is good, but has too many feat taxes. 3 useless feats and a loss of BAB. (You need 16 BAB at level 20 for maximum attacks so you can only drop 4. Monk 1 and 5 each drop 1, so you're pretty tight. Combat Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5 is better for increasing your unarmed damage and general versatility.

Additional options:
A 1 level dip of Ninja of the Crescent Moon adds Dex and Wis to AC on top of your normal Monk bonus, when unarmoured, plus you get +1d6 sneak. A second level gets you Improved Evasion, if you really feel you need it. Your NOTCM levels also stack with Monk levels when calculating AC bonus from the Monk table.

The Sidewinder Monk variant class trades out mostly useless/defensive features (Slow Fall, Disease Immunity) for 1d6 sneak every 3 levels. You're going to be making all your saves so you don't care about disease. If you do, you gain immunity at Paladin 3 anyhow. However, the bonus feat choices for that variant class are terrible so you are almost forced to take the Martial Monk ACF to be able to choose good feats at 1/2/6.

__

With 20 Wis/16 Dex/10 Con you have the following bonuses:
+5 to all saves (Paladin+Serenity)
+5 to AC (Monk)
+5 to AC (NOTCM WIS)
+1 to AC (Monk)
+3 to AC (DEX)
+3 to AC (NOTCM DEX)
+5 to hit (Intuitive Strike, replaces STR)

9th level build:

Martial Sidewinder Monk 5/Paladin 3/NOTCM 1

Extremely high AC and touch AC (27/27), very high saves (+12/+15/+15), 3 attacks per full attack, 3d8 damage with an unarmed strike (with Monk's Belt, Improved Natural Attack, and Superior Unarmed Strike), and 2d6 sneak attack damage.

Good. Now arrange it as a level by level build setup, or the setup at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20. I don't like the Ninja level, as this thread is about Monk/Paladin, but it's mostly just causing AC bloat while acting like a Monk, AKA fighting mobile and unarmed. It slots in well with Sidewinder, on top of that.

Any particular reason for 5 levels of Monk? I can't think of anything that is important that can't be stacked otherwise. Is it the penalty reduction on Flurry? The extra point of lost BAB can hurt

Sidewinder Monk is a good pick, but may be problematic to mix with Holy Monk's level stacking with Paladin. Granted, the cost of Holy Monk is the 1st and 6th level feats for three of the Paladin features, as Paladin has them. Namely Aura of Courage, Smite Evil and Turn Undead.

[animewatcha]

whats the ac bonus plus 1 and plus 2 on the chart? Looks weird if it is supposed to stack with monk level based one.

Also what about tattoo'ed monk. You get tattoo'ed that can emulate quite a number of the monk aspects and a few of the paladins. Depends upon tattoos chosen. If go into epic, epic tattoo'ed monk keeps adding more power.