Optimizing a unarmored Swordsage

[Blu]

Hey guys I would like some help for a 3.5 campaign me and my friends are doing. Me and my DM talked about what the class features a unarmed swordsage should have and agreed that i should have unarmed damage progression of the monk, bonus AC, flurry of blows, movement bonus and for some reasons fort, reflex and will of the monk. My character is currently lvl 2 human swordsage and this is the abilitys i rolled:
Str: 14, Dex: 15, Con: 14, Int: 13, Wis: 14, Cha: 12
for feats i got adaptive style and TWF.
Another thing is that the DM gave me some gloves that works like a weapon(dont use a body slot) and can be magically improved just like a normal weapon (improving my unarmed attacks). Im planning on going all the way through swordsage 20.
For feats, I was thinking weapon finesse and maybe shadow blade while going with the TWF feats chain. But dont have much ideas besides that. Can you guys help me with others possible feats and maneuvers?
If you guys can help with items to use also. Thank you!

[Flickerdart]

Weapon Finesse won't be too useful for you, since your Strength and Dexterity are so similar - plus the best way to optimize unarmed attacks is to get HUGE, and that usually raises your Strength. I would recommend picking up Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick as soon as you can, just because they're awesome.

[Blu]

I had the idea of weapon finesse because im thinking on pumping my dex.
I also thought of using a belt of magnificence(since i am kind of mad) or a belt of battle(simply good item).
Also, snap kick doesn't sound like a good idea. One more attack for -2 to all attacks. At early levels i already have -2 from the flurry and -2 from TWF

[Flickerdart]

I had the idea of weapon finesse because im thinking on pumping my dex.
Pick up Weapon Finesse once you've pumped your Dex, no sooner.



I also thought of using a belt of magnificence(since i am kind of mad) or a belt of battle(simply good item).
Belt of Magnificence is overpriced. Belt of Battle won't help your Dex.



Also, snap kick doesn't sound like a good idea. One more attack for -2 to all attacks. At early levels i already have -2 from the flurry and -2 from TWF

Snap Kick is better than TWF - you get the extra attack on any time you attack. Initiate a maneuver? Snap Kick. Attack of Opportunity? Snap Kick. Charge? Snap Kick. TWF and Flurry only work on a full attack.

[Particle_Man]

Extra Readied Maneuver will give you more options.

Are you aiming for a prestige class or going full on as a swordsage?

[Blu]

I can see your point about snap kick, thanks.
About increasing my size, i would need to do it by potions or items (our party doesn't have a caster).
Just increasing my size wouldn't just make me a bigger target? Just increasing the effective size of my unarmed damage sounds better to me(like with a ring of mighty wallop)

[Blu]

Extra Readied Maneuver will give you more options.

Are you aiming for a prestige class or going full on as a swordsage?

Full on swordsage

[Flickerdart]

Just increasing my size wouldn't just make me a bigger target? Just increasing the effective size of my unarmed damage sounds better to me(like with a ring of mighty wallop)

You're a front-line character. You're going to be a target no matter what. The way to fix that is to kill your enemy before he can kill you. Hugeness helps with that by granting you reach.

[Troacctid]

You do need to wear light armor to get your Wis to AC, though.

[John Longarrow]

You do need to wear light armor to get your Wis to AC, though.

Troacctid is quite right on this by RAW, but check with your DM to see if they are enforcing this bit of silliness.

Also see if you can get potions of Alter Self. Not as good as enlarge person for straight up combat, but you can turn into a form that has decent NA or a movement type that you don't have. Plus if you turn into a Troglodite you get NA and can then pop an enlarge person for more fun!

[Troacctid]

Troacctid is quite right on this by RAW, but check with your DM to see if they are enforcing this bit of silliness.
I mean, it's actually way better to get it in armor, since even just plain leather armor is a free +2 AC. *shrug*

[John Longarrow]

I mean, it's actually way better to get it in armor, since even just plain leather armor is a free +2 AC. *shrug*

For the most part I agree, only issue I can see is under the "Adaptation" for swordsage:


To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency

Really silly to remove light armor proficiency but require light armor to get wisdom to AC. Since the OP is getting the unarmed progression I'd double check with the DM to make sure the character also gets light armor proficiency OR doesn't need light armor for Wisdom to AC.

Best would be doesn't need it but can wear it anyhow. If I was playing I'd hate to find out after the fact that I don't get wisdom to AC while wearing my chain shirt OR that I do but I take the armor check penalty to attacks because I'm not proficient.

[Troacctid]

Armor without an armor check penalty does not impose any penalty for nonproficiency, so losing light armor proficiency doesn't really matter all that much. You can get a moldy old set of leather armor for 10 gp, and there you go. You got your Wis to AC plus a +2 armor bonus on top of it, and you're not worried about arcane spell failure or losing class features, so it's pretty much free.

[Forumlurker]

I actually recently built a character very similar to this. Snap Kick and Superior Unarmed Strike are both very useful. My DM ruled that the only thing that the Unarmed Variant Swordsage got was the Monk's unarmed strike progression, due to the Swordsage already being a very solid class on it's own.

As far as items go, a Fanged Ring and Warforged Battlefists can net you two effective size increases for the purpose of dealing damage, which stacks with a Monk's belt and Superior Unarmed Strike to get you doing 6d8 per hit at level 11. (Two things to mention about the battlefists. First, they can also have weapon enhancements added to them, and second, they require you to either be a warforged or have the Mighty Arms graft. If you don't like the flavor of the graft, then ask your DM if you can simply add the cost of the graft to the battlefists and call it even.) Also, get a Mithral Chain Shirt at the first oppurtunity. For 1000 GP, you get +4 AC with no armor check penalty.

For feats, take the Vulnerable Flaw if you're allowed to take flaws, as your various AC bonuses will negate it. I personally don't see any point in going down the TWF line for several reasons. You'll definitely want to avoid stacking penalties to-hit thanks to your 3/4 BAB and less than stellar stats, it doesn't really make sense IMO with unarmed strikes, and you'll likely be using a lot of Strike maneuvers in the first place, which Snap Kick lets you add another attack to, unlike Flurry or TWF. As said above, you should indeed go for weapon finnesse after you start pumping Dex.

Edit:
www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?259783-3-5-Swordsage-Handbook-This-one-ll-walk-the-whole-Way-WIP-PEACH
This guide is excellent, and very useful for picking out maneuvers.

[Blu]

As far as items go, a Fanged Ring and Warforged Battlefists can net you two effective size increases for the purpose of dealing damage, which stacks with a Monk's belt and Superior Unarmed Strike to get you doing 6d8 per hit at level 11. (Two things to mention about the battlefists. First, they can also have weapon enhancements added to them, and second, they require you to either be a warforged or have the Mighty Arms graft. If you don't like the flavor of the graft, then ask your DM if you can simply add the cost of the graft to the battlefists and call it even.) Also, get a Mithral Chain Shirt at the first oppurtunity. For 1000 GP, you get +4 AC with no armor check penalty.


The idea of the graft seems interesting. Would the bonus from fanged ring, battlefists stack with a ring of mighty wallop, for 3 increases in size? Or with a ring of greater mighty wallop(with 8 CL i think) for going all the way through 4 sizes increase, making my damage that of a colossal being?
I think my DM would not apreciate me doing colossal unarmed damage plus weapon enchantments though.
And no flaws for this campaign.
The idea of going for TWF was more of flavor thing, like a flurry of death or something.

[Blu]

You do need to wear light armor to get your Wis to AC, though.

DM houseruled it :D

[Forumlurker]

The idea of the graft seems interesting. Would the bonus from fanged ring, battlefists stack with a ring of mighty wallop, for 3 increases in size? Or with a ring of greater mighty wallop(with 8 CL i think) for going all the way through 4 sizes increase, making my damage that of a colossal being?
I think my DM would not apreciate me doing colossal unarmed damage plus weapon enchantments though.
And no flaws for this campaign.
The idea of going for TWF was more of flavor thing, like a flurry of death or something.I don't see any reason why you couldn't stack it with a continuous item of Mighty Wallop. Do be careful about going overboard, though. (as a sidenote, I'm going to try to work a ring of mighty wallop into my unarmed swordsage build now :P )

Regarding TWF, a flurry of death isn't very intimidating when it misses constantly. Like I said, you'll really want to avoid stacking to-hit penalties. With the right gear, you'll be hitting like a truck very fast. Also, going down the TWF line will leave you fairly feat starved, so be careful.

When I built my unarmed swordsage, I built him for level 10, used 40 point buy (I have a generous DM), and didn't have any of the monk class features, so I wasn't worried about getting lots of attacks. I focused on hitting very hard instead. Don't forget that you're still a swordsage, and you have tons of maneuvers at your disposal to cover your gaps and enhance your combat abilities.