Boosting Bladesinger Melee Damage?

[Deathtongue]

While the Bladesinger is a very intriguing concept, it's IMO hampered by two major flaws for a frontliner:

Durability and damage. Now, durability isn't as big of a stumbling block as it seems. They have a high AC and spells to reduce the chance they get hit further. The spell that reduces elemental damage by a reaction really helps. And if they really need to (and I'd practically say they do) they can take Tough or Resilient.

The problem therefore is damage. While they can do burst damage (though no better than regular wizards), sustainable damage is kind of a problem. Since they're forced to use one-handed weapons and don't get any passive damage boosters until level 14, even if they are trying to conserve resources by going into melee they're not really helping the party towards the endgoal -- which just ends up shifting the burden of resource conservation to someone else.

It almost seems like that if you want a magical frontliner that helps stretch a party's resources, there's not much point in Bladesinger. You're better off just completely ignoring melee and enjoying the concentration and AC boost. But then again, you could've just been an Abjurer wizard.

Any thoughts on this dilemma?

[jaappleton]

It's alleviated slightly by taking a level of Fighter for Dueling style. Though remember they can utilize Two Weapon Fighting.

The best thing to do is to utilize a combination of the Booming Blade cantrip with the Blink spell, teleporting away from enemies and making them chase you, thus triggering the extra damage of BB. BB also scales very well. Now, the only issue there is that you have one swing. One attack, one swing, hit or miss, that's your turn. But that's the risk you take.

IMO the best use of Bladesinger is Fighter - EK / Bladesinger. Going mostly EK. This gives Action Surge, higher hit dice, and utilizes the defensive abilities of Bladesinger to turn EK into an unhittable powerhouse. I wouldn't go back 3 levels in Wizard, maybe 5. That'll get you 2nd and 3rd level Wizard spells, respectively, without the EK spell school restrictions. Hold Person, Action Surge, enjoy auto-critting with all your melee attacks.

[Specter]

For sustained damage, 3 levels of Fighter or Rogue are probably the best bet. For burst damage, look no further than Paladin 2.

[Fishyninja]

Pardon my ignorance but what exactly is a Bladesinger? I'm guessing a melee based bard?

[hymer]

The problem therefore is damage. While they can do burst damage (though no better than regular wizards), sustainable damage is kind of a problem.

Compared to what? Since bladesinges are already as burst capable as wizards, that's where the obvious comparison should be. Most wizards will be dealing cantrip damage at will, so d8 or d10 going up gradually over levels.
Greenfire Blade and Booming Blade (mentioned above) have already been brought up. Bladesingers are better able to utilize these cantrips, which potentially deal quite respectable damage.
But bladesingers can also use bows, dealing more damage levels 1-4. At level 5, they are behind 2d10 and probably 2d8, but then they get two attacks at level 6 getting back in front. Even at 11th level 3d10 is an average of 16.5, while two attacks at 1d8+3 is 15 - with no magical weapon, which is getting likely to have turned up by now. And then there's bladesong to add to that damage if you're willing to melee.
And even if/when the cantrips do better damage than using a weapon or weapon cantrip, there's nothing keeping the bladesinger from using a standard attack cantrip.

It seems to me that bladesingers are actually a tad in front of wizards generally when it comes to sustained damage. If they were much further ahead, they'd be too good, as they already have the wizard's burst.


Pardon my ignorance but what exactly is a Bladesinger? I'm guessing a melee based bard?

It's a wizard's Arcane Tradition, to be found in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide p. 141-142.

[DivisibleByZero]

Pardon my ignorance but what exactly is a Bladesinger? I'm guessing a melee based bard?

Here you go. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dnd+5e+bladesinger)

[Fishyninja]

It's a wizard's Arcane Tradition, to be found in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide p. 141-142.

Thank you I am still new to SCAG and the various add ons (not sure if the correct term.


Here you go. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dnd+5e+bladesinger)

Hardi-har (fair point though :smalltongue:)

[Saggo]

But bladesingers can also use bows, dealing more damage levels 1-4. At level 5, they are behind 2d10 and probably 2d8, but then they get two attacks at level 6 getting back in front. Even at 11th level 3d10 is an average of 16.5, while two attacks at 1d8+3 is 15 - with no magical weapon, which is getting likely to have turned up by now.

You have Magic Weapon, as well. +1 by level 3, +2 by level 7, and +3 by level 11. Even if you do get a magical weapon, you might keep a mundane version just to get +2/+3 if applicable. That's pretty note-worthy, considering +x to attack is one of the most efficient ways to increase DPR (if not as eye-catching as a d6 or similar).

[Sicarius Victis]

You've also got Haste beginning at 5th level, which is always useful for someone who expects to fight.

[MadBear]

I think the bigger problem is just expectation. A bladesinger isn't supposed to do a ton of melee damage, in the same way a eldritch knight isn't supposed to cast as much as a wizard.

Bladesingers are great because you can wade into melee as a wizard and not be dead meat. In fact you are fairly durable with your ability to avoid damage. And all of this is on top of getting full level casting.

If you want to be more melee damage dealer then magic caster, I'd recommend taking eldritch knight, or multiclassing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, you're... much better off with an Abjurer casting Booming Blade, in all honesty. Or a Dragon Sorcerer with Green Flame Blade. I despise the Bladesinger class for not doing anything it sounds like it should. Your best bet (and it's still not a great one) is to pick up an extra attack somewhere (say, TWF, or Polearm Master, or Crossbow Expert) and cast something like Enlarge/Reduce.

[Deathtongue]

Compared to what? Since bladesinges are already as burst capable as wizards, that's where the obvious comparison should be. Most wizards will be dealing cantrip damage at will, so d8 or d10 going up gradually over levels.The problem is that bursting (as in, using up a pile of resources to quickly turn around a bad situation) is something a wizard is already good at and they're probably better at it than any other class in the game. If you really want to throw down, a Reverse Gravity or Web or Fear is better than trying to bridge the gap with raw damage. I don't mind the Bladesinger not having any good burst damage/effect relative to other wizards, but they're already worse than most other wizard specializations at creating a turnabout and should be compensated in some other way.

Frankly, I think that the Bladesinger should've been made to be worse at burst effects (i.e. penalizing them on spell slots, reducing Save DC, etc.) in exchange for more sustainability.


It seems to me that bladesingers are actually a tad in front of wizards generally when it comes to sustained damage. If they were much further ahead, they'd be too good, as they already have the wizard's burst.The problem is that being a little bit in front of wizards when it comes to sustained damage still puts them at being one of the worst providers of sustained damage, especially at the mid-point of the game.

IMO the challenge of a wizard is getting the most out of your spell slots -- something a Warlock or even a Sorcerer doesn't have to worry about, because they can still contribute with their low-cost effects. A wizard who is not using their spells to create major tactical advantage and does not get compensated in some other way is a weak wizard. Because you could've been playing a class that only traded a little bit of burst capability for significantly more sustainability.

I really think that the bladesinger should either trade nova capability for more sustainability (bladesong forces you to burn a minimum-level spell slot, but also gives bonuses), have some way in which they take a big gamble to increase their nova capability (casting a spell give them a bonus to attack and damage the next round but reduces their defenses), or they give other characters advantage in a way that regular wizards don't. For example, they can sustain spells that ONLY target other characters for free.

[N810]

Get a better sword, Something expensive and magical. :wink:

[Gignere]

It sounds like the OP really wants to play an EK/Bladesinger instead of pure blade singer. There you trade spell level and slots for more sustained damage voila. Why bastardized the bladesinger by butchering their spell progression when all you need to do is multiclass.

[Specter]

It sounds like the OP really wants to play an EK/Bladesinger instead of pure blade singer. There you trade spell level and slots for more sustained damage voila. Why bastardized the bladesinger by butchering their spell progression when all you need to do is multiclass.

If you do that, go with EK15/BS5, or BS16/EK4, redundant Extra Attack blows.

[Deathtongue]

It sounds like the OP really wants to play an EK/Bladesinger instead of pure blade singer. There you trade spell level and slots for more sustained damage voila. Why bastardized the bladesinger by butchering their spell progression when all you need to do is multiclass.Sorry. I was just being theoretical there.

But back to what we actually have: even viewed through the eyes of 'I want to play someone who can occasionally blast big but can still be useful for round-to-round sustainment' I'm not seeing why I should be playing a bladesinger at all. Even (actually, especially even) a multiclassed one. If that's the case, why not go with a setup that requires less sacrifice of burst-caster goodies while still bringing the sustainment (Sorceradin, Valor Bard, Bladelock, Melee Cleric, or even a pure Paladin)? If I could find some way to juice the Bladesinger's round-to-round damage without having to rely on magic items it'd be worth it, but, eh.

[Gignere]

Sounds like you should reroll, sounds like you want more of a sorcadin feel instead of bladesinger which I still consider a wizard except it is one that doesn't have to hide behind a minor illusion every fight, and not a full time frontline melee DPR wizard.

[Dualswinger]

As has been mentioned, blade singer just isn't the frontliner that it initially appears to be, but I think it's strengths lie in the adaptability of the class.

Against most foes, you're still casting as a full wizard with some extra AC, but against enemy casters, you can slap an anti magic field on yourself and make them cry.

[DevashishK]

I like bladesinger, but to make it an effective sustained damage, you need to add to your damage modifiers. Blood Hunter 3 Mutant subclass gives you an intelligence modifier, so you get a better bladesinger int damage modifier, 3 levels of artificer(two of the subclasses work, battlesmith and artillerist(I think)) to make intelligence your attack stat, then the Nether scroll of the Azumar gives you a 22 int, the tome of understanding gives you a 24, the mutagen makes it a 29, for a +9 twice, then the blood hunter also can add an extra die to the damage, as well as get the dueling or two-weapon fighting styles. I chose dueling, making a total of +20 if I’m using a magic weapon without a modifier. Wield staff of power to improve AC/saves more, as well as make it a +22 damage per attack. Haste or tenser’s transformation can increase the damage more, and the poke arm master feat weaponizes the bonus action for 3 attacks at +17 to hit, for a total of 66 damage +2d6 +3d10 +1d4, and if you add tenser’s, that’s all at advantage and an extra 6d12. Without blood hunter, replacing it with warlock for the lifedrinker invocation can also apply the additional modifier.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread Necromancy.