Is mystic theurge any good?

[Zhentarim]

I'm wanting to mix a cleric of cayden cailean with an air wizard.

[grarrrg]

Short answer: You could do plenty worse, but it's not the best option in most cases.

[Malimar]

Yes, it's good, because just about any spellcaster is good. But it's not as good as pure cleric or pure wizard, unless you use extreme early-entry tricks, because being a couple spell levels behind is devastating and twice as many spells per day in greater variety isn't enough to make up for it.

[Gellhorn]

There *is* another option as opposed to being an actual mystic theurge - the false priest/razmiran priest archetype for the sorcerer lets you use a spell slot of a level higher than the normal spell in order to preserve the wand charge/scroll while UMDing a divine spell. Only kicks in at level 9, however, and the higher spell level is a pain, but that is an option if you aren't set on wizard/cleric specifically. However it seems like you have a concept in mind, so what everyone else said, basically (although I think they errata'd or something the main early access loophole into MT)

[Afgncaap5]

The most fun I ever had as a caster was as a mystic theurge. Being able to cast spells long after the favored soul ran out of useful spell slots was great. My wizard-turned cleric-turned theurge was a madman who, in his own way, saved reality. No other caster I've ever played was as fun.

Now, if you're asking if it's the most powerful choice for optimized play, then the answer is obviously no.

So I guess it comes down to what you consider to be "good" and what the culture of your table is like.

[CasualViking]

If you can use that affiliations from Inner Sea Magic to restore your lost casting on one side, sure. If you can do early-entry tricks despite the official nerf, sure. Otherwise, **** no.

[Serafina]

The main issue with Mystic Theurge is simply that you are three levels behind in spellcasting.
That means while you're getting Nth-level spells, another main caster would get N+1 or even N+2 level spells. You're also (though less importantly) losing out on caster levels.

The other issue was mostly that it only advanced your casting by 10 levels, but the introduction of the Evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist) changed that - but at the cost of now being four levels behind.

Then you have the issue of needing two mental ability scores, but that's solvable if you just take the right classes or archetypes.

Early-entry would fix the main problem: If you only need a single level in the other casting class, you're only a single level (and later two, if you go Evangelist) behind in spellcasting. That's not bad at all for what you're getting.
But most early-entry tricks got nuked. You can no longer qualify via spell-like abilities, and obviously no class get's to cast a second-level spell at first level. Heighten Metamagic doesn't work, since you'd still need a spell slot for it. There's no way that I know off for a divine class to count their spells as arcane, or vice versa.
The only option that I'm aware of that still works is to take Equipment Trick (Sunrod) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat). With it, a first-level light-descriptor spell counts as a second-level spell for all purposes. With that, you could easily qualify with, say, Wizard 2/Cleric 1 or some other combination.



Now, since most GMs are going to say "no" to that, here's some good single-class options for you to get the right arcane/divine mix:
- Play any divine caster, ideally Wisdom-based for a good Will-save, and take Dreamed Secrets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dreamed-secrets). You'll get two Wizard spells that you can change each day. It requires worshipping a great old one, but you could chose Bokrug or Mhar which are Chaotic Neutral and relatively benign (they're destructive, but don't want to end the world).
- Play a Shaman, and take the Lore (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/spirits/lore)-spirit as a wandering spirit. You'll get (Charisma modifer) Wizard spells you can change each day, but you'll need to have sufficient Intelligence to cast them and your casting in general will be based off Wisdom. Still, for a main caster such heavy investment into mental scores is not a bad idea.
- play a Fey Speaker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/feyspeaker-druid-archetype) Druid - you'll use the Druid-list, but cast off Charisma and add a bunch of Enchantment/Illusion spells to your list.
- play any arcane caster and tkae the Collegiate Arcanist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/collegiate-arcanist) prestige class. This allows you to add a Druid-spell two levels lower than your highest one each level, and at 9th-level it adds all Good-domain spells.
- play an Arcanist with the Collegiate Initiate archetype. This will give you one Druid spells, or Cleric spell with the good-descriptor, each level. It also works well with the prestige class.

As you can see, it's quite possible to get access to Wizard-spells while mostly being a divine caster, or to have some usually divine spells while being an arcane caster. You'll have less spell selection overall - except you'll have access to higher-level spells, as well as class features, which really ought to make up for it. And while nothing can beat the mystic theurge for simple number of spells per day, this usually isn't that important.

[Florian]

I'm wanting to mix a cleric of cayden cailean with an air wizard.

It's a fun PrC, but you actually need to know what you do and how you do it.
The lack of 3 levels on both compared to a single class caster puts you in the same league as 6th level support casters and you'd have to handle two main casting stats.

You already asked in your other thread what spells you should select for doing BFC and I actually wanted to answer that you picked the worst elemental focus for that, as most common bfc spells are to be found in earth and water.
No, that simply makes things worse, as you have a hard ime grabbing good bfcspells, they come late and cayden doesn't offer the domains that you could actually use to counter the missing earth element.

I short: Don't do it.

[Ualaa]

You're grabbing flexibility... having a lot more spells per day.

But you're costing yourself at least a full rank of spells, on each side to do it.

If you've had both a Wizard and a Sorcerer or Arcanist in your party...
The wizard can Fireball, Fly and Haste, while the Sorcerer/Arcanist cannot for a full level.
Then the wizard can... whatever, while the other guy has to wait.
All the way up.
That's being back one level, getting the new spells at an even level instead of the previous odd level.

Same deal if you've had a Cleric and an Oracle.
The cleric gets the next heal, divination, buff, whatever at 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc.
While the Oracle waits until 4th, 6th, 8th, etc., for the same thing.

As a Mystic Theurge, you'll be three levels back (if you go with the Wizard/Cleric/Druid equivalent) or four levels back with a spontaneous caster like a Sorcerer/Arcanist on the arcane side or an Oracle on the divine side.
Traditionally, you would go Wizard 3 > Cleric 3 > Mystic Theurge 10 > Wizard 4.
You could progress the divine side after the ten levels of Theurge.
Whichever side is more important to you, consider Magical Knack as the trait for that side... your caster level is +2 (level variable effects, like range, area, dice of damage etc... so you're effectively only one level back as far as caster level goes).

So the straight Wizard has Chain Lightning... level 6 spells, at character level 11.
Meanwhile at character level 11, you have level 4 spells.
At an even level, say level 12, the wizard still has level 6 spells, but you have (Wiz 3 + MT 6 + Divine ignored) the casting of a 9th wizard so 5th level spells.
Sure you have Divine stuff to go with it...
But at odd levels, you're effectively two spell ranks back.
And at even levels, you improve to be a full spell rank back.

I could see a Control or Blaster druid... looking at Mystic Theurge.
If you went with 4 druid levels for Wildshape.
And then took Shaping Focus, to wildshape as if 4 levels higher than actual level (to a maximum of hit dice)...
That would open up the Arcane blasts or control options...
From a power gaming point of view, you'd be stronger without the MT levels, but still a neat build especially if your other players aren't very powerful optimizers either.
If the rest of the group doesn't optimize far, being weaker than you could be as a straight caster might alleviate some of the issues of being so much stronger, should you make optimal choices with whatever build you have...

I also like an Oracle/Sorcerer MT, especially if you can get Cha to saves.
Both classes are slower progression, so 4th level for second level spells.
So you'd be looking at Oracle 4 + Sorcerer 4 + MT 10 + 2 Levels elsewhere... 10 + 4 = 14 = 7th level spells in both.
You could have 8th in one, and 7th in the other, at 20th.

Gestalt is where double caster classes actually works...

[Malimar]

Gestalt is where double caster classes actually works...

In the sense of "is effective", maybe. In the sense of "is allowed by the rules", no.

[Azoth]

In the sense of "is effective", maybe. In the sense of "is allowed by the rules", no.

I think Ualaa meant that they work in the sense of WizardX//ClericX. Taking one class on each track, and not trying to Theurge them.

[Malimar]

I think Ualaa meant that they work in the sense of WizardX//ClericX. Taking one class on each track, and not trying to Theurge them.

Ah, yes, in that sense, it's not a bad gestalt build, especially if you use your doubled spells per day to prepare both lots of buffs and lots of stuff to do in combat.

[Catarang]

IMHO, Mystic Theurge is kind of a weird class. It takes the strength of going full 20 in a prepared caster class, which is getting higher spell levels faster in return for fewer spells, and flips it, giving you more spell slots at the cost of spell levels. Mystic Theurge should be a class that allows you as a spontaneous caster to intensify the trade you're already undergoing, slower spell level progression for more spell slots, and in the process giving you more versatility.

Spontaneous spell casters already give up spell levels for more spell slots, Mystic Theurge would then just be a heavier trade off as well as more versatility. And besides, Prepared Casters already get a lot of cool stuff, lets give some stuff to spontaneous casters; innately casting divine and arcane spells sounds like it should be a spontaneous thing.

[Psyren]

You're grabbing flexibility... having a lot more spells per day.

But you're costing yourself at least a full rank of spells, on each side to do it.

You're also losing school and domain powers, plus familiar and channel progression.

MT has a couple of goodies of its own but you lose so much that I don't think it's worth it.



The other issue was mostly that it only advanced your casting by 10 levels, but the introduction of the Evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist) changed that - but at the cost of now being four levels behind.


Can Evangelist advance PrCs past 10 levels?

[BearonVonMu]

There is another option that I don't see having been presented already: there is a Third Party class on the Pathfinder SRD called Theurge.
It misses out on domains, specializations, and a few other goodies, and has a small number of spells prepared overall, but it does not suffer from the hindered spell progression or caster level. It is a class that is Mystic Theurge from level one.

Take a look. You might like it.

[Azoth]

Can Evangelist advance PrCs past 10 levels?


Scaling Powers

Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level, as appropriate for the class in question. Note that no character can have more than 4 attacks based on its base attack bonus. Note also that, before long, the difference between good saving throws and poor saving throws becomes awkwardly large—the further you get from 20th level, the more noticeable this difference grows, and for high-level characters, bolstering their poor saving throws should become increasingly important. Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.

It does fall into a rule's gray area. Technically, there are no more than 10lvls printed for Mystic Theurge. Evangelist gives you pseudo-levels in the class with its class features advancing without gaining the actual levels.

The above quote is from the section about advancing beyond level 20. It sets precedent, for how to handle pseudo levels or real levels in a class forcing it to advance beyond the printed number of levels.

Keeping in accordance with the above guidelines, you would continue to gain +1level of spell casting of an arcane casting class AND a divine casting class per level you take, and at every odd level combined spells would advance another spell level(6th level spells at MT11, 7th at MT13, 8th at MT15, 9th at MT 17th, ect.)

Is it cheese? Yes. Does it stand on Shakey RAW? Yes. Does it go against RAI? Probably. Would most DM's allow it? Probably not.

[Serafina]

It's unclear, and likely not advance any of the class features since they're the non-scaling kind. Combined Spells could scale, but states a limit (to a maximum of 5th level).
But you'd really take it to advance your casting progression, and that's pretty straight-forward.

As with so many things, this really falls into "ask your GM" territory. There's no rules against it and it actually fits the fluff well (you're already a divine caster anyway, so Evangelist fits).


By the way, I found one definitive way to enter Mystic Theurge without losing significant casting:
The Faith Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/faith-magic) Arcane Discovery. A spell prepared with it is explicitly cast as a divine spell. The spell must be two levels lower than the highest you can cast, and is prepared as one level higher than it's actual level.

As a Wizard, you can first take a discovery at 5th level. You could then select a 1st-level spell, prepare it as a 2nd-level spell, and thus ought to qualify. Though I'm admittedly uncertain whether the "one level higher than it's actual level" ruins that - in which case, you ought to take it at 7th level, take a 2nd-level spell, and prepare it at third-level.

As an Arcanist, you can also take discoveries in place of one of your exploits. With the first assumption above you could enter at 7th level, with the other at 9th.

Either way - at that point you can just take a one-level dip into your divine spellcasting class to progress, and then go straight for Mystic Theurge. You'd lose one level of casting from your arcane class, and go up to 11th-level in your divine class. If Evangelist is allowed, you can go up to 18/14, but only if you can do the earlier entry with Wizard.

That's not quite the ultra-early entry, full-double progression that can end up with 9th-level Arcane AND Divine spells - but you can still get an arcane spellcaster who gets up to 6th-levle (or maybe even 7th-level) divine spells, which is pretty solid for only losing two caster levels, one feat-equivalent and 11+ levels of class features.

[Ualaa]

In Gestalt, which is not this thread... I'd still go Ranger|Wizard generally, over say Wizard|Cleric or whatever.

Basically, Mystic Theurge is not optimal.
But if you're the only caster in the party, you're already stronger than the others.
So taking a weaker (and maybe more interesting) option isn't a bad idea.

If there are other casters in the party, you're giving up more than you're getting.
Which will result in being weaker than other casters with 9th level spell progressions.
Even if currently they've only got 4th or 8th level spells, you'll be far enough back of that to hurt.

You should still be well ahead of the martial types.

[Clistenes]

I like character concepts that look powerful, but I don't care much for true optimization. The Mystic Theurge is weaker than a pure Wizard or Cleric, but whatever, if is cool and looks impressive... And anyways, if everybody cared only for power, all parties would be made of first tier classes only, and the game would be boring...

If you want raw power in addition to the ability to cast any spell, and your DM is nice, what about an Archivist? You can find almost any spell as Divine, either in the Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger or Divine Bard's spell list or as a Domain spell, and you can learn them all.

[SangoProduction]

Yes. It's "any good" also "any evil" as well. I don't think it's alignment locked.

[gr8artist]

Isn't there a feat you can take that increases your spellcasting to make up for multiclassing, so long as it doesn't go higher than your HD? Am I remembering this right?

[SangoProduction]

Isn't there a feat you can take that increases your spellcasting to make up for multiclassing, so long as it doesn't go higher than your HD? Am I remembering this right?

Practiced Spellcaster. Although it doesn't fix the lost SPELL levels.

[Particle_Man]

Given that casters are often tier 1 and 2, MT's power-down might be a blessing in disguise for some parties, especially if it is the only spell caster. The MT does their thing and the fighters, barbarians, rogues and monks do their thing, and everyone is cooler with each other.

MT can also be useful in a small party as you can cover more bases.

[Zhentarim]

The DM made me a deal. I can do wizard 3/cleric 1, then go straight into MT. How much sweeter is that? I originally picked air wizard for the school powers, but it makes less sense with a MT.

[grarrrg]

With regards to Practiced Spellcaster and the like:
This thread is tagged PATHFINDER.

There are (very) few ways to 'optimize' Mystic Theurge in PF. Whether it be through early entry (doesn't exist), or making up for lost spellcasting (very limited options).


The DM made me a deal. I can do wizard 3/cleric 1, then go straight into MT. How much sweeter is that?

Take that deal.
It only delays your Wizard-ness by 1 level, which puts you on par with most Sorcerers.

[Azoth]

With regards to Practiced Spellcaster and the like:
This thread is tagged PATHFINDER.

There are (very) few ways to 'optimize' Mystic Theurge in PF. Whether it be through early entry (doesn't exist), or making up for lost spellcasting (very limited options).



Take that deal.
It only delays your Wizard-ness by 1 level, which puts you on par with most Sorcerers.

Equipment Trick (Sunrod) Like the Sun works. Whether people approve of it or not, it satisfies the RAW requirement of 2nd level spells.

It is the same as Sanctum Spell, Precocious Apprentice, Earth Spell, Improved Sigil Krau, or any other early entry trick from D&D 3.5. It may violate the spirit of the requirement, but satisfies it to the letter of RAW.

[Coretron03]

With regards to Practiced Spellcaster and the like:
This thread is tagged PATHFINDER.


The trait magical knack however is basicly the same except it 2 caster levels and you could ask if you dm let you take it twice (by default you can't) for both cleric and wizard upping your Caster level to almost normal.

[Serafina]

The DM made me a deal. I can do wizard 3/cleric 1, then go straight into MT. How much sweeter is that? I originally picked air wizard for the school powers, but it makes less sense with a MT.Go for it if you want those Cleric-spells. Just keep in mind that you'll still lose progression on your school powers, familiar, and on the wizard bonus feats.
This is pretty much the best deal you can expect, and makes for a pretty sweat deal.


Do note that Magical Knack only increases caster level. Which is to say it doesn't allow you to cast higher-level spells, or gives more spells/day. A Wizard 4 with two levels in some other class would get two 2nd-level spells, not three - and wouldn't get third-level spells either. So really, it's a nice trait since caster level is still important for a lot of things, but doesn't help with the actual problem here.
Also, for this build specifically it won't get it's full value unless Evangelist is also taken, since the character is only 1 CL behind anyway.

[Mechalich]

Mystic theurge is most useful if the GM is varying from standard encounter composition or has house-ruled around methods that allow the party to rest whenever they want. Extra spell slots matter if there are lots of encounters that you're going to need to power through. Essentially, it's only good if the GM has already reoriented their assumptions so that 'go all day' is a meaningful thing.

[Calthropstu]

It can be quite good. Just do not make the mistake of going into theurge with sorcerer/Oracle(Favored Soul for 3.5)

You think being 1 spell level behind is bad, try being 10th level getting your first 3rd level spell.

[Florian]

The DM made me a deal. I can do wizard 3/cleric 1, then go straight into MT. How much sweeter is that? I originally picked air wizard for the school powers, but it makes less sense with a MT.

That is an effing good deal!

Now this makes you a great BFC/Summoner/Caller if you keep basing it on an Elf.

Geddy already linked you the treantmonk guide, so no biggie with spell selection on the Wizard side of things (pick Universalist, bound object: Amulett).
With the Cleric side, you can actually go as deep as Summon Good Monsters and Sacred Summons, which means that you can keep WIS rather low, as you only use supporting spells on this side, not needing to beat a DC.

[Particle_Man]

The DM made me a deal. I can do wizard 3/cleric 1, then go straight into MT. How much sweeter is that? I originally picked air wizard for the school powers, but it makes less sense with a MT.

With a deal like that I think your main concern is not overshadowing the other players. Make sure their characters have a chance to shine. You can help them do that with buffing and terrain control spells, which you are in an excellent position to deliver.

[Segev]

The deal profferred is basically the inverse of the easiest early-entry trick to MT (wherein a wizard takes Precocious Apprentice at level 1, then runs Cleric 3). So it's good, but no worse than could be done via early entry shenanigans (that are nonetheless quite legal by the RAW).

It can be quite good. Just do not make the mistake of going into theurge with sorcerer/Oracle(Favored Soul for 3.5)

You think being 1 spell level behind is bad, try being 10th level getting your first 3rd level spell.

A default Mystic Theurge (Wiz 3/Clr 3->MT) is actually 2 spell levels behind. They are effectively 5th level in both classes at character level 8. By level 8, a straight wizard is casting 4th level spells, and has been for an entire level.

Okay, so that's 1.5 spell levels behind.

Oracle/Sorcerer is going to be 4/4 before entry, so yeah, level 10 for third level spells. By level 10, a wizard is on 5th level spells, and has been for an entire level. So 2.5 levels behind.