Eating raw meat?

[ShadowSandbag]

I have a player who's been trouble for a while now and constantly goes out of the way to contradict me, using outside resources to do so. At the end of the last session the group killed a small dragon and this player now wants to eat its heart, tongue liver and other things raw, based on some book he has read about Dragons. Ordinarily I would just say it didn't do anything and let it go, but since this has happened a bunch of times now I kind of want to teach him a lesson in how he can't just use whatever books he wants when I've said time and time again we're mostly just dealing with the core pathfinder books unless they don't cover something.

This leads to my question, how would you deal with a character eating a large amount of raw meat? I figure a Fortitude save would be needed but am not sure what the penalty for failing it would be.

Thanks!

[DrMotives]

Peter Dickenson wrote, if I remember correctly, that dragonflesh was extremely poisonous. He wrote a whole book on the "what-if" of evolutionary mechanisms to allow dragons and account for a lack of fossil record. (spoiler! It's huge concentrations of hydrochloric acid in their stomachs that let them fly, breath fire, and desire to eat princesses). The book is called "Flight of Dragons" and it also inspired a movie of the same name, done by the same animation studio that did the Hobbit movie cartoon & Last Unicorn.

TL;DR Made the meat deadly toxic.

[legomaster00156]

Have him make a FORT save or be sickened for 1d6 hours. If he continues to eat, the DC grows and the condition turns into nauseated. He keeps eating like a moron, he contracts a disease you find appropriate.

[Geddy2112]

This leads to my question, how would you deal with a character eating a large amount of raw meat? I figure a Fortitude save would be needed but am not sure what the penalty for failing it would be.

Most raw meat is perfectly safe to eat. The inner tissues of a healthy animal are generally sterile. Some animals are known to carry disease and if the animal was unhealthy then it could have parasites/diseases. In nature, carnivores eat raw meat all the time without issue. Human populations that live(ed) in places without much in the way of plants, such as the Arctic Circle, live on mostly/entirely meat without issue. Humans have eaten raw meat throughout history and we still do today; any dish cooked rare, beef tartar, sushi, raw oysters, to name just a few things. A person who has not eaten much meat suddenly switching to a meat based diet is going to feel like garbage for a while, but will adjust. Your carnivore player is not in this group; I would not call for saves unless they were gorging themselves and overeating, in which case a failed fort save might result in puking or being sickened for a bit. Lots of adventurers are going to be hunter gatherers living off meat at low levels, I think it is bad to punish them for eating animals and other things raw just because they are raw.

Most animals and their organs would be absolutely disguising, incredibly tough, and otherwise not pleasant to eat but don't really carry a health risk.There are certain organs/animals that human(oids) cannot eat, for various reasons. An example is a polar bear liver, which has a very high amount of vitamin A and if you eat a whole one in a sitting you risk a lethal dose. A lot of other animals are poisonous or have poisonous glands-eating a poison dart frog, pufferfish, monarch butterflies, etc. are all poisonous in part or whole to humans. Obviously if the animal had worms, parasites, pathogenic bacteria, or some other disease eating it raw risks transmission if the disease can transfer to humanoids; humans can get Trichinosis from pigs, but they won't get Ich from a fish. Lastly, something could be safe to eat but so freaking nasty that no humanoid could or would eat it unless they were dying of starvation. A good example are domestic roosters; unless stewed for a very long time, rooster meat is so tough it is basically inedible, not to mention the pathogenic bacteria . If the player eats a poisonous animal, toxic organ/gland, meat from a diseased animal or meat with pathogens, or the animal/meat is just absolutely disgusting, it is not unreasonable to call for a fortitude save against sickened/nauseated or against a poison and have the poison work as X damage or whatnot. Or they just barf from eating whatever raw because it is really gross, but take no other penalty.

Since dragons are magical creatures, their blood/meat/organs could be toxic for this reason alone, or some other reason. It could be as simple as the dragon meat is too rich and will make you sick, or is poisonous to humanoids. Heart meat is also incredibly tough, and I would imagine a raw dragons heart would have a thickness and consistency worse than an untanned water buffalo hide. At some point, everything becomes toxic. The dose makes the poison.

With all that aside, this is your actual problem.

I have a player who's been trouble for a while now and constantly goes out of the way to contradict me, using outside resources to do so.
This has nothing to do with eating meat, or taking a bite of a dragons heart because it is totally metal and awesome and whatnot. This is a problem with the player as a player, not an in character problem. Remind the player that rules of other fantasy universes do not apply, and that this game follows the general mechanics of Pathfinder core unless the thing in question is not in pathfinder core. When something is outside of pathfinder core, it is YOUR call to say what is what. Other fantasy settings do not fill in the cracks unless you particularly say so. If you want dragons to be inedible in your setting, then they are. If you want dragons to speak Portuguese in your setting and play chess, then they do. You are the DM and the final arbiter of what is and is not. So long as you are not using such things as a "gotcha" against your players, the rules of the universe are yours to create and enforce, not subject to whatever players what.

If your player is running roughshod over your setting, inform the player that you will not allow this and that what you say as DM is final. Inform them politely, but firmly, that actions have consequences, and just because it is this way in LOTR or whatever does not make it so in your setting. If they want to keep doing this, they need to be fully aware the game universe and DM will not bend to their wishes(without a wish spell of course:smalltongue:)

[Tohsaka Rin]

I have a player who's been trouble for a while now and constantly goes out of the way to contradict me, using outside resources to do so.
Thanks!

"Cool story, (belligerent player), but I'm not using (that resource) in my campaign. Moving on."

Just shut him down cold, and if he tries to beleaguer the point, ask him if he came to game, or just to argue.

If he continues to to pester you on the same issue, ask him what you did to make him want to bully you so?

Because at that point, he's apparently trying to bully you, rather than play a game together. Ideally, the heavy-handed verbiage will make him realize that he's going well past the line of polite, and voluntarily rein himself in a bit.

A nice close-to-last resort is to ask if the player would stand for this sort of behavior, were they the DM. If they wouldn't stand for such things, ask them if they think it's fair that you should have to tolerate it.

Hopefully, the issue is solved well before this point. When I got to this point with a problem player, the response I got made me remove them from the group after that night. Nobody else at the table objected.

Rule #1 of dealing with problem players is always 'talk it out', as it tends to solve more problems to everyone's satisfaction more often than not.

[Thurbane]

The player could, theoretically, be ingesting salmonella, e-coli, flukes or any other number of things that live in the flesh of animals. Maybe call for a save vs Blinding Sickness or another disease?

The Draconomicon doesn't specifically state that the flesh/meat of dragons is dangerous to eat, but as others have pointed out, a lot of (non-D&D) sources do imply or state this. As DM, you'd be perfectly within your rights to say that in your word, dragon flesh acts as an ingested poison.

[John Longarrow]

I'll second that this is an Out of Character issue and cannot be fixed in game. Talk to the player. If that does not resolve the issue talk to the rest of the group. If the rest of the group wants to try to correct things, go for it. If the rest of the group is OK with booting the player, OK. If the rest of the group doesn't see a problem and doesn't understand why you are being like this, decide if you want to continue running this group.

None of those responses help with eating raw meat but do address the underlying issue.

As others have said though, decide what you want to happen. Personally I'd go with something unique though, eating the heart of an evil dragon brings you to the attention of Tiamat. She starts appearing in dreams to "Advise" the character on how to act and behave. Thinks like "Kill and eat your companions"...

[Afgncaap5]

Honestly, I'd bring up all the folklore about the mere presence of dragons causing sickness and toxicity in vegetation, streams, and well water. Point out there's a chance that the dragon might be one of those, then roll. I'd say that most of the time it's fine (raw meat can be eaten with no issue, after all, as has been pointed out), but due to the magic nature of dragons (especially evil ones) certain results on the percentile die might replicate certain poisons or diseases or, worse yet, curses. If any rations he eats starts turning to gravel until the curse is dispelled then it might change his willingness to eat literally anything in a fantasy world.

But, again: I'd point out to him that this is folklore he probably knows in character and that there's a chance things could go wrong if he eats it. Pulling this out of the blue without that kind of warning just wouldn't be right.

[noce]

If you decide to apply consequences to eating raw dragon, be sure to let him try a knowledge check.
Maybe knowledge(arcana) and/or survival (or pathfinder equivalent, I'm not familiar with it).

This is to check wheter the character (not the player) knows which dangers eating raw dragon causes in your universe.

[Naez]

Another point that may be relevant, eating the flesh of a sentient creature, i.e. anything with an int of 3 or more, is an inherently evil act and may affect alignment.

[SangoProduction]

Another point that may be relevant, eating the flesh of a sentient creature, i.e. anything with an int of 3 or more, is an inherently evil act and may affect alignment.

well, thankfully, it's the flesh of a corpse, and not a creature, and as objects, corpses have no intelligence.

[Afgncaap5]

well, thankfully, it's the flesh of a corpse, and not a creature, and as objects, corpses have no intelligence.

I dunno... D&D has a pretty well established afterlife...

If "Stealing a kobold's socks" is an evil act, and you murder said kobold and then take the socks, and later the kobold's bugbear friend says "Hey! Those are Gnashcrool's socks!" is it valid to say "Technically he's dead so they're not"?

I mean... in my opinion, I think the bugbear's the guy who decides the truth of that moment, ignoring what can be pulled off with Bluff or Diplomacy.

As it goes, I think the "corpses aren't sentient" argument would fly better with archons than angels.

[Hawkstar]

Another point that may be relevant, eating the flesh of a sentient creature, i.e. anything with an int of 3 or more, is an inherently evil act and may affect alignment.
[citation needed]

[daremetoidareyo]

Don't dragons have elemental subtypes?

Anyways, liver and heart are nutrient sense. But...They can have worms, and livers specifically are filters, so if a Dragon had some sort of disease or unbalanced diet, there could be toxins.

Plus prions could be in the brains, so if the player has Dragon ancestry...Will save against dementia.

But let's talk about the hardcore worms that can infest a Dragon...purple worm larvae? Or maybe a gutpuppet? Or what have you.


The thing is, just let him eat Dragon parts RAW, give him no mechanical benefit, and don't give in to the power struggle. As DM, you're the silverback, if player thinks he can run the troupe better, switch seats.

[Naez]

[citation needed]

Okay not inherently evil, unless you enjoy it apparently. The section pertaining to it is just in the book of vile darkness. And does have a bit that would be relevant to the OP.

"cannibals may be defined as creatures that eat other intelligent creatures for whatever perverted pleasure they gain from it. Many creatures do this—dragons eat humans and other intelligent creatures all the time—but usually they gain no more pleasure (and definitely less sustenance) from a human than they do from a cow.
Cannibals gain pleasure, and in some cases power (see the absorb mind and absorb strength spells in Chapter 6), from eating others. Often cannibals consume foes that they have defeated in battle, but sometimes they simply murder their meals.
Diseases, many of which involve mental disorders, may be transmitted through cannibalism. Eating particularly foul creatures, such as trolls or fiends, can be very dangerous (see the blue guts disease in Chapter 2)."

[Segev]

First off, this IS an OOC issue, and will ultimately have to be resolved OOC.

Secondly, decide if you want dragon flesh to do anything special. If not, decide if you want it to be particularly tasty or useful in high class meals. If not, nothing much happens.

If you do decide it's delicious or useful for high class meals with proper preparation, then let him eat it with little to no ill effect. Describe the taste however you like.

Then, later, when word gets out they killed a dragon, have a merchant or few come sniffing around for the heart and liver. Offer a high price or get into a bidding war over them before the party has a chance to explain they already ate them. When that's explained, the merchants should be disappointed. If they're good raw, they should say something about not blaming them for it. If they take careful preparation, they should wonder why they'd waste the meat that way.

Be careful with this; as powerful a "here's what you get for assuming" lesson as this could be, they will also learn that they should sell these parts for profit in the future.

[ChaosStar]

Another point that may be relevant, eating the flesh of a sentient creature, i.e. anything with an int of 3 or more, is an inherently Evil act and may affect alignment.

I whole-heartily agree with this. If the character in question is Evil then there isn't a problem on that front, though.

[mistermysterio]

What kind of dragon was it?

Agree that this is mostly an OOC issue, but coming up with conditions that "make sense" might be best if we knew the type of dragon we're talking about ... and maybe the alignment of the character and the group?

[DrMotives]

Plus prions could be in the brains, so if the player has Dragon ancestry...Will save against dementia.

Prions are a mammal thing, there's no lizard TSE or Mad Turtle Disease. I think dragons wouldn't need to worry about prions, at least.

[Remuko]

Prions are a mammal thing, there's no lizard TSE or Mad Turtle Disease. I think dragons wouldn't need to worry about prions, at least.

Dragons arent reptiles. Theyre warm-blooded. Theyre not mammals specifically either though.

[Segev]

Dragons arent reptiles. Theyre warm-blooded. Theyre not mammals specifically either though.

Clearly, dragons are avians.

[SangoProduction]

Clearly, dragons are avians.

To be fair, that's probably not far off, if dinosaurs are anything to go by.

[Deophaun]

I have a player who's been trouble for a while now and constantly goes out of the way to contradict me, using outside resources to do so. At the end of the last session the group killed a small dragon and this player now wants to eat its heart, tongue liver and other things raw,
Dead. Acute vitamin A poisoning.

[Blackhawk748]

Dragons are the giant scaly cousins of cats, i thought everyone knew this.

[denthor]

Who in the party has knowledge alchemy? Who in the party is a mage? Who in the party is a butcher?

Off the top of my head they may want the heart liver tongue other parts for spell components to sell for cash.

Parts are parts and in D&D they are gold.

If I was any of the above players I would appreciate the cash.

[daremetoidareyo]

Dragons arent reptiles. Theyre warm-blooded. Theyre not mammals specifically either though.

Prions are a protein that fold other proteins to look like themselves. There are some fungi that have prion issues too. It isn't strictly mammalian.

[gooddragon1]

Have him make a FORT save or be sickened for 1d6 hours. If he continues to eat, the DC grows and the condition turns into nauseated. He keeps eating like a moron, he contracts a disease you find appropriate.

I agree with this. If he's not of a race like gnoll that is known for doing it, I don't think he has the stomach for it. Literally.

[PacMan2247]

A good example are domestic roosters; unless stewed for a very long time, rooster meat is so tough it is basically inedible, not to mention the pathogenic bacteria.

The only point in that entire post with which I have to disagree. My family raises chickens, and having too high a rooster-to-hen ratio will get your hens...er...'snu-snu'ed to death. The meat from young roosters is no tougher than that of similar aged hens, and they're no more prone to disease. Of course, some breeds are better for eggs than for meat, and older birds are going to be tougher, just like older specimens of any animal.

That said, I'll second everything else in that comment. Magical creatures aren't just strange-looking, they follow completely different rules, including metabolism. Insufficient care in eating fish can land you with mercury toxicity, eating meat that was butchered improperly can get you some seriously nasty bugs, and even eating vegetables that were processed in unsafe ways can kill you. With magical creatures, you get all of those risks, plus the bonus of not knowing how their bodily processes will interact with yours. Do dragon livers or hearts play a role in generating their breath weapons? If so, you might end up with an uncontrolled elemental attack inside your digestive tract for eight hours. Hopefully nobody like this player would attempt to eat part of an otyugh or carrion crawler.

[ShurikVch]

:xykon: Note:
In some instances, however, individuals who spent their lives feeding on others spontaneously rise as ghouls.

[Zanos]

Dragons arent reptiles. Theyre warm-blooded. Theyre not mammals specifically either though.
Nothing about non-mammal biology prevents them from developing prion diseases. Theoretically anything that uses proteins, which is basically every living thing, could have a prion disease. But they're not likely to transmit across species because having a malformed protein do anything in another creature is pretty unlikely, and even if other creatures have them they're rare enough that we generally don't notice because we're not particularly concerned about curing ultra rare lizard diseases. In any case, nearly all prion diseases come from cannibalism or inheriting malformed proteins. The ones that don't are extraordinarily rare. I don't think there's any that you can get from eating raw meat of a non-human. Most raw meat is actually safe for consumption. A lot of foodborne illness comes from the conditions that animals are kept in during modern types, our comparatively weak immune systems aside from specific vaccinations, and the way in which meat is stored causing one bad dose to contaminate a lot of product.

Eating raw meat from freshly killed animals isn't something I'd recommend, but you probably aren't going to get sick from it unless the animal was sick or rotting.

That said, this player is being a dingus. You aren't using the supplement. He eats a bunch of dragon parts. He gets full. Woo.

[Deophaun]

I don't think there's any that you can get from eating raw meat of a non-human.
Mad cow disease. Potentially chronic wasting disease from deer. Maybe. We're not sure.

Most raw meat is actually safe for consumption.
Only because of modern food handling and the supply chain. Step outside that into the wild and you will have to worry about things like trichinosis, the dangers of which have had a large cultural impact on diet for thousands of years.

[John Longarrow]

OP, are you ready to play "Rat Bastard DM"?

If you've not solved this out of character, best thing I can think would be to have an aspect of Tiamat (assuming an evil dragon) confront him and offer him a chance to really be what he aspires to.

Combat should be short and brutal if he wants to fight.
Being turned into a spawn of Tiamat would make him an NPC.
Turning down the queen of evil dragons should lead to nasty reprisal.