A Practical High AC Build

[ArmorArmadillo]

I've always been interested in finding an alternative to the Power Attack monster, but "defensive" builds always seem to either be unable to do anything beyond not being hit, or require 18 levels to achieve.

So, here's my idea of a Practical Defender

The Basics:
You'll Need: PHB, Complete Warrior
Abilities: Prioritize in this order: Dex>Con>Int>Str>Cha or Wis (I prefer my characters to have Charisma, but it's not vital)
On a 25 Point Buy, I'd go with: 10 Str, 16 Dex, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 9
Skills: Invest into Tumble, but otherwise have fun.

Equipment: A Spiked Chain and Chain Shirt. Choose an interesting looking variant for spiked chain like Kusari-Gama, Lashknife, or Multi-Segmented Sword. You'll look badass if nothing else, and not "mega-huge greatsword badass," minimalist kung-fu badass.
Tactics center on fighting defensively.

The Build

Level|
Class|
Feat|
Base AC|
Max AC|
HP|
Ability Increase|
1|Swashbuckler|Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Weapon Finesse|17|17|12|
2|Fighter|Combat Expertise|17|22|19|
3|Fighter|Dodge, Mobility|18|23|27|
4|Swashbuckler||18|23|34|Dexterity
5|Swashbuckler||18|23|41|
6|Fighter|Elusive Target|18|23|49|
7|Swashbuckler||18|23|56|
8|Fighter|Improved Combat Expertise|19|27|64|Dexterity
9|Swashbuckler|Combat Reflexes|19|28|71|
If you're a Human, grab Combat Reflexes at level one as your Bonus Feat, and level to Swashbuckler 5 at 8 to get the Dodge bonus sooner.

The key to this build, as I see it, is the Elusive Target feat. Because making use of combat expertise requires taking a serious hit to your attack, It is useful to have a feat that allows you to work without having to hit. Run towards your opponents and try to be flanked and put them against each other. If they try to run away, make use of your reach and hit them with AoOs. Once you hit Swash 5, you can designate a dodge bonus against 2 opponents, making these tactics even more effective.

Your AC isn't sky high, but your Hp is high enough that you can actually effectively tank, and negating power attack allows you to actually go toe to toe with the games more serious monsters. Invest in quality magic light armor, rings of protection, and amulets of natural armor, and enjoy being able to effectively while keeping a high AC. Let Sorcerers and Power Attackers deal the massive damage, and count on cleric's, druids, and wizards to buff you effectively.

Plus, this build gets pretty high skills for a melee class, so you can actually serve as a group Face despite while serving competently in melee. Enjoy!

[Fishies]

Why would you get proficiency with the spiked chain if you're using a quarterstaff?

[Quietus]

Looks pretty decent, but you could go with Swash5/Ftr2 and get the same thing, minus Improved Combat Expertise and Combat Reflexes. Similar results, but really, there's not a whole lot of reason to get ICE, since giving up THAT much base attack is just going to ensure you can't hit the broad side of a giant.

Beyond that, nice build. What would you take after these levels? I'm thinking either Rogue or Monk - Monk goes nicely with the quarterstaff imagery (and two free extra attacks from Flurry when you hit 20, since it fits nicely into the 11 level slot left), while Rogue could certainly make use of the higher AC while getting into flanking positions. Combine with TWF feats and the TWF-defense ones, and you can even pick up MORE AC along the way.

[giblina]

Underfoot combat feat and confound the big folk are very nice feats for maintaining a high AC while at the same time dishing damage. They're limited use (only when your small race character is fighting large or bigger monsters), but in those circumstances they provide some fantastic bonuses (and probably the higher level your character becomes the more likely you are to face large-size monsters).

[Leicontis]

Quarterstaff (or longstaff, if you can get one) is wonderful for defense. First off, the Quick Staff Style feat gives 2 extra AC when using Combat Expertise. Second, you can make use of the Two-Weapon Defense series of feats, which are made even sweeter by the extra AC you get from five ranks of Tumble. Longstaff has the added bonus of mitigating the penalties of being flanked (which sweetens the Elusive Target feat). As a final advantage, while many defensive-fighting builds suffer from a serious dearth of offense, two-weapon fighting (double weapon, remember?) gives one lots of attacks.

[Bosh]

Try something like this instead:

3 scout/3 knight
Dex of, say, 16 +3
Chain shirt +4
Heavy shield +2
Knight shield bonus +1
While scirmishing +1
Feat in Races of the Wild that gives you +2 to dodge if you move +2
Shield Specialization from PHB II +1
Normal AC (while moving around) 24
Normal AC while fighting defensively and using full combat expertise 32

Not bad. Also that's no magic items, its a good enough skill monkey, its got fast movement and its not completely crippled offensively. Give him a longsword and with scirmish that's 1d8+1d6+str, which while hardly good isn't complete crap.

But what really makes this shine is mobility + high AC + the knight challenge you get at third level which lets you taunt MMORPG style.

Not max AC by any means but a fairly decent character nonetheless.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Try something like this instead:

3 scout/3 knight
Dex of, say, 16 +3
Chain shirt +4
Heavy shield +2
Knight shield bonus +1
While scirmishing +1
Feat in Races of the Wild that gives you +2 to dodge if you move +2
Shield Specialization from PHB II +1
Normal AC (while moving around) 24
Normal AC while fighting defensively and using full combat expertise 32

Not bad. Also that's no magic items, its a good enough skill monkey, its got fast movement and its not completely crippled offensively. Give him a longsword and with scirmish that's 1d8+1d6+str, which while hardly good isn't complete crap.

But what really makes this shine is mobility + high AC + the knight challenge you get at third level which lets you taunt MMORPG style.

Not max AC by any means but a fairly decent character nonetheless.

Or just use a knight with a mount for your mobility with the challenge. Then you can wear full plate, as well. Use Ride-By Attack to charge, attack, and make your opponents have to chase you down.

[Grug]

Why would you get proficiency with the spiked chain if you're using a quarterstaff?

Because I don't think most characters will have enough gold to start with a spiked chain.

Good build.

[Fishies]

Because I don't think most characters will have enough gold to start with a spiked chain.

Good build.

Spiked chain: 25 gp
Average starting gold for a 1st level fighter: 100gp
I don't know what it is for a Swashbuckler, but I'm pretty sure you can afford the spiked chain. The chain shirt, on the other hand...

[Superglucose]

It's nice, I might use a varient of that.

If your DM is gullible/stupid or both, you could try convincing him to let you play a pseudodragon scout. Ever seen someone try to hit a level 18 pseudodragon with 60+ac? I'm not entirely sure how he did it, but he didn't multiclass.

[Damionte]

I don't really understand what you were getting at in the title. You mention that we're supposed to be looking ta a high AC build, yet your build isn't a high AC build but a triping spring attack like build, and actually has a low AC.

[Tor the Fallen]

Spiked chain: 25 gp
Average starting gold for a 1st level fighter: 100gp
I don't know what it is for a Swashbuckler, but I'm pretty sure you can afford the spiked chain. The chain shirt, on the other hand...

The idea was high AC. Otherwise, he would have made your run-of-the-mill chain fighter.

[Fishies]

The idea was high AC. Otherwise, he would have made your run-of-the-mill chain fighter.

Then why get weapon proficiency with the spiked chain?

[Anxe]

You're going for AC and you're not splashing monk? Why?

[Tengu]

Armor gives more AC than monk's wisdom bonus.

[Person_Man]

1st level Halfling Swordsage

Base: +10
Dex: +4
Size: +1
Chain Shirt: +4
Wis: +4

For a total of 23, at 1st level, without fighting defensively or using any feats or spells or maneuvers or inertial armor or magic items or an animated shield or a race with a natural armor bonus or even mithral armor. Heck, he doesn't even have 20 Dex, which is clearly attainable for a first level Halfling.

ArmorArmadillo, I'm really not sure what you're going for with your build. It has very mediocre AC. It's not a particularly strong reach weapon build. And Elusive Target, while fun, isn't a very efficient way to generate AoO, and it requires Dodge and Mobility, which suck. Any (or even all) of these things can be pretty easily attained at relatively low levels.

May I ask you to re-state what you want out of your build? High AC? Battlefield control? Full combo at low levels? All of these?

[Indon]

Heck, he doesn't even have 20 Dex, which is clearly attainable for a first level Halfling.

Well, unless you're rolling for stats, you aren't getting 20 Dex and 18 Wis at the same time, methinks. 18 Wis and 16 Dex (before racial adjustment) is relatively reasonable.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Then why get weapon proficiency with the spiked chain?
Because I forgot to change it from my first draft. It was a typo, I switched from Quarterstaff to spiked chain and forgot to update.

@ Person-Man: 18s aren't "clearly attainable" if you're using a point buy, and even rolling stats it's rarer than most people seem to think. You can't just count on having 18's in Dex and Wis. I know ToB can get infinitely better everything than everything, but I don't use that.
This isn't an elite build by any means, but it's meant to be average at a lot of different things, and it's meant to get there without having to get 12+ levels to start working.

Also, Skills are important to me, and I like being able to be a background skill monkey who can play an important supporting role in combat without MinMaxing.

[psychoticbarber]

1st level Halfling Swordsage

Base: +10
Dex: +4
Size: +1
Chain Shirt: +4
Wis: +4

For a total of 23, at 1st2nd level, without fighting defensively or using any feats or spells or maneuvers or inertial armor or magic items or an animated shield or a race with a natural armor bonus or even mithral armor. Heck, he doesn't even have 20 Dex, which is clearly attainable for a first level Halfling.

ArmorArmadillo, I'm really not sure what you're going for with your build. It has very mediocre AC. It's not a particularly strong reach weapon build. And Elusive Target, while fun, isn't a very efficient way to generate AoO, and it requires Dodge and Mobility, which suck. Any (or even all) of these things can be pretty easily attained at relatively low levels.

May I ask you to re-state what you want out of your build? High AC? Battlefield control? Full combo at low levels? All of these?

I'm going to nitpick here and remind you that the Swordsage doesn't get wisdom to AC until 2nd level, and I'm not sure that assuming a 16 and an 18 make sense. It might very well happen, but I'm more than generous and it certainly doesn't happen to me every time.

[Tweekinator]

I had a straight level 10 Incarnate who, with 32 point buy and normal wealth by level had an AC of 44 all the time. I can't remember the build I used as this was about a year ago for a one shot, but if you're looking into huge AC try a good incarnate. Because, you know, being good means not getting hit.

[Indon]

I had a straight level 10 Incarnate who, with 32 point buy and normal wealth by level had an AC of 44 all the time. I can't remember the build I used as this was about a year ago for a one shot, but if you're looking into huge AC try a good incarnate. Because, you know, being good means not getting hit.

Until a Dragon comes along and kills your entire party. (Edit: 'cause Dragons have a high +to hit due to strength, that is)

Not that you have a DM that would actually do that, mind you...

[psychoticbarber]

Until a Dragon comes along and kills your entire party.

Not that you have a DM that would actually do that, mind you...

I probably wouldn't do that... but I probably would start introducing enemies that attack you with a basis other than your AC. Things that require reflex saves, will saves, maybe things that attack with touch attacks... all manner of fun things out there for a 10th level party.

[Tweekinator]

If I recall, I was the only one who survived more than one full attack from it because of my insane AC. :smallcool:

[psychoticbarber]

If I recall, I was the only one who survived more than one full attack from it because of my insane AC. :smallcool:

Haha. I have a 15th level enchanter who would like to meet you. Two words: "Dominate Person." ... Will DC 25. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I've hijacked the thread. My apologies. The high AC build is usually a question of practicality, and it's not often that practical, because you need to be able to do something else too.

[Tweekinator]

Haha. I have a 15th level enchanter who would like to meet you. Two words: "Dominate Person." ... Will DC 25. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I've hijacked the thread. My apologies. The high AC build is usually a question of practicality, and it's not often that practical, because you need to be able to do something else too.

Well, an incarnate has a good will save and relies partially on wisdom for melding, so it might have been an even thing there, assuming near equal levels.

I was also able to do halfway decent damage through some melee touch meld, which helped a lot; so I wasn't useless.

I would say that you can practically get a high AC incarnate build.

[psychoticbarber]

Well, an incarnate has a good will save and relies partially on wisdom for melding, so it might have been an even thing there, assuming near equal levels.

I was also able to do halfway decent damage through some melee touch meld, which helped a lot; so I wasn't useless.

I would say that you can practically get a high AC incarnate build.

Yeah, I have to admit I'm not very familiar with the incarnate..template? I don't even know, haha.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, my idea of a practical High AC (and saves) build:

Pal4/Swordsage...

Pal4 gives you Cha to saves, some immunities, some good BAB to start out with, and Turn Undead so you can do stuff with divine feats. It also gives you medium and heavy armor proficency and shield proficency

Swordsage2 gives you Wis bonus to AC. Unlike the MONK bonus, this STACKS with armor.

So now at level 20, you have a BAB of +16, and an Initiator Level of 18, so you can still do 9th level maneuvers. You get Wis to AC and Cha to Saves

With the right maneuvers, you can jack up your DR or AC up to insane levels at least on a temporary basis, not to mention giving yourself invisibility or concealment and other tricks to avoid taking damage.

[psychoticbarber]

Actually, my idea of a practical High AC (and saves) build:

Pal4/Swordsage...

Pal4 gives you Cha to saves, some immunities, some good BAB to start out with, and Turn Undead so you can do stuff with divine feats. It also gives you medium and heavy armor proficency and shield proficency

Swordsage2 gives you Wis bonus to AC. Unlike the MONK bonus, this STACKS with armor.

So now at level 20, you have a BAB of +16, and an Initiator Level of 18, so you can still do 9th level maneuvers. You get Wis to AC and Cha to Saves

With the right maneuvers, you can jack up your DR or AC up to insane levels at least on a temporary basis, not to mention giving yourself invisibility or concealment and other tricks to avoid taking damage.

Thats...That's not bad. You have to stay lawful good and uphold the code to keep your paladin abilities, though. Small negative, but it's there.

[Tweekinator]

Yeah, I have to admit I'm not very familiar with the incarnate..template? I don't even know, haha.

It's an alternate magic system from it's own book: Magic of Incarnum.

[Person_Man]

OK, non-Tome of Battle, high AC, low starting stats, high Skills, available at low levels.

How about Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)? Use one feat for Expanded Knowledge, and now you have Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm), which allows your AC to scale upwards with your manifester level.
Or a Fist of the Forest/Deepwarden.
Or any spellcaster with 2-3 protection spells.
Or a Dervish build.
Or a mounted Knight
Or a Fighter using Mithral Full Plate and an Animated Tower Shield (which they get free prof in).

Or there are a dozen other builds. Honestly I don't care what you play or about the power level of your group. But I think its clear that your build spends a lot of feats for a minimal return. It's not even good at Tripping (no Knock-Down, or Powerful Build, or Expansion, and it mediocre a Str check).

[Attilargh]

Swordsage2 gives you Wis bonus to AC. Unlike the MONK bonus, this STACKS with armor.
Only light armour, mind.

[Catharsis]

For a defensive build, I like my Holy Shieldmaiden of Selûne, built as Paladin of Freedom 4/Favored Soul 3/Pious Templar 1/Favored Soul. Invest in Charisma, don't worry about Wisdom. Get the feats Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Divine Shield, and as prerequisites, True Believer and Weapon Focus (through Favored Soul).

At level 8 and with some affordable items, you're looking at an AC of ~25 (Touch ~16), or more if you can afford a +3 Dex bonus and a Mithral Plate. You can boost both AC and Touch AC by your Cha bonus using Divine Shield, many times a day. You can furthermore use divine spells to buff yourself up some more.

Much more important for a defensive build: Your saves rock. PoF gives you Cha to all saves and immunity to compulsion (how cool is that?!), Favored Soul has all good saves, Pious Templar improves Fort and Will and gives you Mettle (another winner). Even your weakest save, Ref, is going to be ~10 at 8th level.

If you don't have any AC problems, you can delay Divine Shield until 9th level and take Divine Vigor instead, which looks more helpful in the early game.


Another option is the Abjurant Champion. Start with Paladin of Freedom 2/Battle Sorcerer 4, take the Battle Caster feat in order to wear Mithral Plate, and benefit from a freely quickened Shield spell (up to +9 shield bonus to AC) and Arcane Boost many times a day, not to mention Mirror Image and the likes. Oh, and you can use a greatsword.