Falling Rogue Sneak attack (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

So I came up with this idea and I wanted to know if it would work. So have a rogue/assassin with a souce of flight drop from a 200ft height readying an action to do a two weapon sneak attack as a standard action which would likely get the target flatfooted after which due to assassin he casts feather fall and falls harmlessly. But the real reason why 200ft fall is here is because of falling object damage, would it be applied to this attack and how would it be applied, total of 20d6 damage bonus or 20d6 bonus per attack since both weapons are considered different objects falling even though they are being wielded. Would it even be added at all to the attack?

I wonder if this is a new trick no one had thought of if it actually works

[GilesTheCleric]

feather fall

falling object damage

Is your GM going to allow that, realistically?

[flappeercraft]

Is your GM going to allow that, realistically?

I'm the DM. If it works by RAW I allow it for myself and players. Hell the only thing I don't allow are infinite loops but other than that its free reign.

[Grand Poobah]

If I had to make a ruling on something like this at my table...

1) For the falling damage to be applied to the victim you can't be feather falling
2) While you're wielding weapons they are part of 'you' and not separate objects (dunno if this is RAW or not)
3) Sneak attack, a precise strike at a target's vulnerable area, is impossible while falling at terminal velocity. Heck, even using a free action to activate feather fall is stretching the bounds of free actions taking very little time - you are after all falling at around 53m/s. Assuming the target it 2m tall you'd have about 0.04 seconds to perform a precise attack and activate feather fall before hitting the ground. Blinking (your eyes not the spell) takes about 0.3 seconds for reference.
4) You need a full round action to attack with both weapons.

So, I'd say you could do it but no sneak attack but a normal attack with a penalty on the roll and you'd both suffer the damage from the fall.

[Grand Poobah]

I'm the DM. If it works by RAW I allow it for myself and players. Hell the only thing I don't allow are infinite loops but other than that its free reign.

No offence but if a GM did this to me as a player (without stating at the outset that the game is a bit slapstick) I'd throw the PHB at him. But if the table is all on the same page then whatever makes it fun/memorable etc.

[flappeercraft]

If I had to make a ruling on something like this at my table...

1) For the falling damage to be applied to the victim you can't be feather falling
2) While you're wielding weapons they are part of 'you' and not separate objects (dunno if this is RAW or not)
3) Sneak attack, a precise strike at a target's vulnerable area, is impossible while falling at terminal velocity. Heck, even using a free action to activate feather fall is stretching the bounds of free actions taking very little time - you are after all falling at around 53m/s. Assuming the target it 2m tall you'd have about 0.04 seconds to perform a precise attack and activate feather fall before hitting the ground. Blinking (your eyes not the spell) takes about 0.3 seconds for reference.
4) You need a full round action to attack with both weapons.

So, I'd say you could do it but no sneak attack but a normal attack with a penalty on the roll and you'd both suffer the damage from the fall.

My response to 3 is that by RAW a rogue always applies Sneak attack damage when flanking or when his enemy is denied dexterity to AC as according to the SRD "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC"

[flappeercraft]

No offence but if a GM did this to me as a player (without stating at the outset that the game is a bit slapstick) I'd throw the PHB at him. But if the table is all on the same page then whatever makes it fun/memorable etc.

Actually the point of the campaign im running is that the players and I are allowed to go in as much cheese as we want while still accomplishing the goal of the campaign and not using infinite loops. So doing this would probably not be throwing it overboard as I already hit my players with the BBEG and his guards who killed 5 epic characters in 2 rounds (For context, I suggested we do a one shot where each builds a team of 5 of up to CR 21 each, standard rules for the campaign we are running. I just pulled the BBEG and his team in there and completely destroyed so that they knew what to prepare against). Im planning to make this guy an extra guard to the BBEG as a new player is soon joining so that the relative challenge does not diminish, also according to one of my players who has played with the soon new player, that guy is a severe optimizer so this should balance it out a bit.

Edit: I might just add Chain Contingency with 3 Twin Celerity just to add to the fun

[Zombimode]

4) You need a full round action to attack with both weapons.

Well, they could ready a Wolf Fang Strike or so.

But in General I agree with you.

If you want to deal Falling Damage (or rather collision damage, because it is not the fall the causes the damage, but the collision with the ground) to something YOU have to take it as well.

Also, activating Feather Fall just before you hit the ground is not a trivial Action. There is even precedent for it in the rules: Feather Token can be bought in Sharn for a relatively low Price. They have a catch, though: the Duration of their Feather Fall effect is very low (or round or less). In order to activate it at the right time, one has to succeed on a DC 10 Wisdom check.

[flappeercraft]

What about Tumble to negate fall damage then?

[Zombimode]

My response to 3 is that by RAW a rogue always applies Sneak attack damage when flanking or when his enemy is denied dexterity to AC as according to the SRD "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC"

Yeah, you see, that is actually not correct.
Let me fetch the complete Quote:


If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Emphasis mine.
Is this condition also true in your Scenario? Obviously a DMs call. Personally I would rule "no".

This is an example of why "RAW" is so meaningless. The game rules are ALWAYS viewed to the lense of something, usually the DMs adjucation.


What about Tumble to negate fall damage then?

Sure. Do note however that it is a DC 100 Tumble check to negate the damage from a fall.
You can treat the fall as 10 ft. Shorter with a DC 15 Tumble check, though.

[Grand Poobah]

Actually the point of the campaign im running is that the players and I are allowed to go in as much cheese as we want while still accomplishing the goal of the campaign and not using infinite loops. So doing this would probably not be throwing it overboard as I already hit my players with the BBEG and his guards who killed 5 epic characters in 2 rounds (For context, I suggested we do a one shot where each builds a team of 5 of up to CR 21 each, standard rules for the campaign we are running. I just pulled the BBEG and his team in there and completely destroyed so that they knew what to prepare against). Im planning to make this guy an extra guard to the BBEG as a new player is soon joining so that the relative challenge does not diminish, also according to one of my players who has played with the soon new player, that guy is a severe optimizer so this should balance it out a bit.

Edit: I might just add Chain Contingency with 3 Twin Celerity just to add to the fun

Fair enough. I'm not used to playing in quite such a deep bowl of fondue. :smalltongue:

[Xaroth]

I'm not sure if it'll be as relevant but a long time ago, Muggins created Ezio Auditore de Firenze (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17511616&postcount=196) for a thread of mine.

If you look in "The DnD 3.5e Treatment" and check out "Death From Above" you may get some ideas or answers.

[Darrin]

I'm not sure if it'll be as relevant but a long time ago, Muggins created Ezio Auditore de Firenze (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17511616&postcount=196) for a thread of mine.


In addition to Muggins' excellent build, check out Dire_Stirge's Marg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21446693&postcount=164) and Jormengand's Slam Dunk contest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?402795-Ridiculous-Character-Concepts-2-Slam-Dunk!) for ideas on how to weaponize falling.



I wonder if this is a new trick no one had thought of if it actually works

It's not a new trick. I believe Sinfire Titan first came up with the idea with his 4500 lbs of Stupid (http://web.archive.org/web/20100602203446/http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863510/4500_lbs._of_Stupid?pg=1) thread.

As far as whether it actually works... it depends on how far you're willing to bend RAW (Rules As Written). If you're dealing with just the Core rules, then the Falling Object rules don't allow a Ref save to avoid the damage. There's still quite a bit of wiggle room there as the DM can invoke a variety of ad-hoc rulings to get around that, either handwaving a Ref save as Rule Zero, treating the falling object as a trap, or (*shudder*) attempting to invoke real-world physics.

If Heroes of Battle is available, then the Aerial Bombardment rules offers a DC 15 Ref save to avoid damage. However, they aren't particularly good rules, and are still open to some interpretation.


So I came up with this idea and I wanted to know if it would work. So have a rogue/assassin with a souce of flight drop from a 200ft height [...]


If a flying creature deliberately stalls to fall on top of an opponent from above, the aerial movement rules say that you drop 150' on the first round, and 300' on subsequent rounds. It's not clear from the rules if this "terminal velocity" is a general rule for all falling creatures, or just flying creatures that stall. DMGII mentions terminal velocity on page 47: 670' on the first round, 1150' on subsequent rounds. Certain builds optimized for high fly speeds may be able to exceed this by flying straight down, but the rules aren't clear if this is treated the same as deliberately falling.

Anyway, assuming you've got a terminal velocity rule you're happy with and you're ok with falling object damage not having an attack roll or a save, the next problem is how to combine the fall with an attack action. There are a couple feats that allow you to turn a deliberate fall from above into a charge:

Battle Jump (Unapproachable East): This one is problematic, as the text is more than a little confusing. There's also the problem that it's a regional feat for Taer, and it's somewhat hard to justify on a non-Taer humanoid. It's not clear from the text how exactly to activate the feat, or whether you need to actually be clinging to a ledge to use it.

Roof-Jumper (Cityscape): This one's easier to qualify for as far as not being a regional feat, but requires three not-so-useful prereqs. The "Death From Above" option allows you to leap down on an opponent, turning the fall into a charge attack, but again, it's not clear what action is required to activate this ability. It also has the advantage of adding +1d6 damage for each 10' fallen beyond the first 10', so the higher you start your fall then the more obscene your damage gets.


[...] readying an action to do a two weapon sneak attack as a standard action which would likely get the target flatfooted [...]


The somewhat cruder Readying An Action method could be used, but you're limited to a standard action. I'm not entirely sure how you're using TWF on a standard attack, although there are some ways to do that. If you're using Battle Jump or Roof-Jumper, then traditional method is getting Pounce, usually via the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian dip.

You don't mention how exactly the rogue is invoking sneak attack. Presumably your target is not aware of the rogue, although there are not a lot of terrain features to hide behind while flying. Or it could be the first round of combat and the target hasn't acted yet. Any other typical method to qualify for sneak attack (invisibility, grappling, etc.) should work. I'm partial to a Swordsage dip or Martial Study to pick up Cloak of Deception (1 round of greater invisiblity).



[...] after which due to assassin he casts feather fall and falls harmlessly.


This is a bit dubious as both Battle Jump and Roof-Jumper have clauses that put restrictions on methods used to reduce the falling damage. Battle Jump prevents you from using it when under the effects of a fly or levitate spell, but the designers didn't anticipate using slow fall, feather fall, or catfall. By a strict RAW reading, anything that isn't a fly or levitate spell should work (including natural flight). The author of Roof-Jumper did anticipate slow fall and feather fall, but nothing in the description of catfall says anything about slowing down, so effects like the Landing property or Boots of Landing should still work.

Actually using feather fall, though... I assume you're casting this spell as a free action just after your melee attack(s) but before hitting the ground. I guess technically that's allowable by RAW, but it won't work with Roof-Jumper.

If you can hit a DC 100 Tumble check, you can ignore all falling damage (ELH p. 44).



But the real reason why 200ft fall is here is because of falling object damage, would it be applied to this attack and how would it be applied, total of 20d6 damage bonus or 20d6 bonus per attack since both weapons are considered different objects falling even though they are being wielded. Would it even be added at all to the attack?


No. Falling object damage has nothing to do with the damage from your weapon attacks. The 20d6 falling object damage would happen when the rogue's body strikes his target, presumably just after he has made his melee attack(s). Momentum and acceleration don't really exist in the D&D combat rules, so outside of the two feats mentioned above, there really isn't anything that adds bonus damage based on the attacker's relative velocity with respect to his opponent's frame of reference. Very bad things happen when you attempt to model real-world physics in D&D.

[Pleh]

How about this:

(This was published by Bastion Press, I'm assuming a game that allows rather full amounts of cheese won't mind a dip into a 3rd party source for this)

Jump Spear is an Exotic two handed weapon that functions like a shortspear designed to let you make intentional drop attacks on enemies.

No TWF without something like Monkey Grip shenanigans to let you dual wield two handed weapons, but I consider this an alternative to the TWF thing, since that is somewhat suspect on if you can get away with Full Round actions on a falling attack anyway.

Take a feat to get proficiency, then just make 1 normal two handed attack.

General rules for Jump Spear: 1d8 x3 Piercing damage for Medium creatures and attacking with the Jump Spear as part of a fall is considered a standard melee attack. You deal an extra 1d10 damage per 10 feet of falling (1d6 for Small creatures, 1d12 for Large) and this damage is multiplied on a critical.

The attacker still takes the falling damage (-10ft of distance fallen) and gets a Reflex to take half (DC equal distance fallen in feet) but ONLY if their attack hits.

Using the Jump Spear in normal melee, it functions like a shortspear.

With a Jump Spear, you trade the TWF feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency and you have solid RAW to back up your use of making falling attacks. Pair that with some of the falling attack feats Darrin recommended and you might have something really solid.

If you've got magical access to Flight and Feather Fall, I might recommend trying to get your hands on Truestrike just to make sure your falling attack doesn't miss so you always get the Reflex save to halve your falling damage.