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View Full Version : How mad should I be at my GM for this?



ellindsey
2017-01-20, 06:41 PM
I joined an online Pathfinder game recently. Low level, (we started at 3) vast open world, seems like a lot of fun. The GM is inexperienced with Pathfinder, but doing a good job with the storytelling.

The other players were mostly melee and ranged damage, so I decide to play a support character. Picked Hedge Witch to be different. Healing, buffs, debuffs, some crowd control.

I suppose the first warning sign was when I wanted to play a Sylph, and the GM initially objected on the grounds that "Feather Fall at will is too powerful". He relented after everyone pointed out how silly he was being.

Magic items were rare in the campaign - no magic stores, and few from loot. At level 5 I asked if I could take the Craft Wondrous Item feat, so I could start making items for the party. The GM said I could.

Over the course of several sessions, we gathered money and materials, planned a workshop, and started working out what items I'd be making for who. When we had some in-character down-time, I worked out a list of what items I wanted to craft. Nothing game-breaking - Cloak of Protection, Bracers of Armor, a Pearl of Power for myself. I've got a high enough Spellcraft to hit the DC, a space to work, the money and plenty of time. Sent it to the GM asking if it was OK for me to start working on this stuff at this point.

The GM's response? He sent out an email to everyone, announcing "All crafting feats are now banned in this campaign."

I'm really considering dropping the campaign at this point. The timing feels punitive - if he'd announced 'no crafting' from the beginning, or told me 'no' when I asked if I could take the feat, that would be one thing. The only thing making me consider staying is that I have been enjoying the storytelling and roleplaying with everyone up till now, but it feels like I've just had a major class feature yanked away at the moment I was about to start using it.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-01-20, 07:22 PM
Say all of this to him. Quit if the conversation isn't productive.

ellindsey
2017-01-20, 09:01 PM
Discussed it with the GM, he said that he was going to implement a completely different crafting system where we'd be going on quests for materials, and that everyone would be able to craft with the right skill rolls and roleplay (though magic items would still be rare and valuable). I don't deal well with sudden rules changes mid-campaign, especially when I'd built my character with the expectation that I'd be able to do something that has now been completely changed. I signed up to play Pathfinder, not Calvinball. Then I quit.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-01-20, 09:13 PM
I agree that unilaterally changing the rules of the game you all agreed to play is pretty obnoxious.

JNAProductions
2017-01-20, 09:15 PM
You have a reason to be mad. If the game is fun, talk to your DM and let them know how you feel, and ask if you can swap out your item-crafting feat for something actually useful.

If it's not fun... Just quit. It ain't worth sticking out for a bad game.

Vlos
2017-01-20, 10:16 PM
Well clearly he is trying to keep it a low level campaign.

I am sure he is concerned that now with your magic crafting feats you can start to feed the party magic items, which he really can't control.

I would talk with him on it, and suggest that he requires special materials to craft items, this could limit how many you can produce and require you to go on adventures to make a single item.

ellindsey
2017-01-20, 11:15 PM
He wants to completely house-rule the crafting system. Which is OK, I'm just really thrown off by him announcing this just as I was starting to craft. He's also announced that he intends to continue to rewrite the rules as the campaign goes on session by session, which is something I can't stand.

Arbane
2017-01-21, 01:37 AM
He wants to completely house-rule the crafting system. Which is OK, I'm just really thrown off by him announcing this just as I was starting to craft. He's also announced that he intends to continue to rewrite the rules as the campaign goes on session by session, which is something I can't stand.

Yeah, tell him to get back to you when he's got all his nerfs planned out.

hymer
2017-01-21, 03:02 AM
This is a new DM. I'd cut'em some slack. Yes, it's annoying, and you should politely make sure that this (and how much time and effort you and other players put into what is now defunct) is known, so that this is part of their learning experience. The homebrew item creation system is also going to suck (in all probability), but that's another (partial) lesson learned.
If it really bothers you that much, you should of course quit. I wouldn't. I'd talk it out and hang around.

Deophaun
2017-01-21, 06:37 AM
quests for materials
Sounds exciting and epic. Who wants to be out banishing demons and foiling the schemes of evil wizards when you can be grocery shopping?

Anonymouswizard
2017-01-21, 07:11 AM
He wants to completely house-rule the crafting system. Which is OK, I'm just really thrown off by him announcing this just as I was starting to craft. He's also announced that he intends to continue to rewrite the rules as the campaign goes on session by session, which is something I can't stand.

Nothing he's doing is inherently bad in and of itself, it's really the timing that's a problem (that and the straight up changing of position).

I had a GM who once slashed the effectiveness of armour in half partway through a game, and then a couple of sessions later completely changed how exorcism worked to add more challenge (a bit of a pain, but as the party had 2 committed exorcists and a dabbler in a game revolving around hunting demons it's understandable, demons never got to act). The difference was that because it wasn't the start of a campaign he discussed this with the group at the start of the session and allowed us to have a say on if it was implemented this campaign.

Now, having to gather materials to craft magic items isn't inherently bad, I have a setting where wizards tracking spell slots/mp is entirely replace with wizards tracking material components (justified by the fact that long dungeon delves aren't a thing in-setting, so the PCs are normally only a couple of days walk from a town/village) and like to run science fiction where getting the plutonium you need to power your new and improved force field is a valid sidequest (I mean, you can make a roll to find some on the web, but that has an insane difficulty). But the difference between that and implying someone can use the standard crafting system until they try to use it is problematic.

Now I do tend to houserule games as the campaign goes along, almost every GM invariably does (whether it's because they just find an edge case they want to change or if they want to replace jump drives with hyperdrives varies by the GM), but very few have that intention. Maybe I'm running d6 Space and I decide I don't like the Wild Die, I could declare that all 6s explode and a roll of all 1s is a critical failure (an extreme example to be sure) and it would be alright as long as I discussed it with my players before I included it and they agreed to it.

Here it's a really weird case. I have no clue what's going on, but if they intend to increase the houserules every session I agree that it was probably right to leave (I assume you did so politely?), not every game is for everyone. 'No gaming is better than bad gaming' springs to mind, bad gaming of course being completely subjective but it sounds like changing the rules mid-game is on your list of what makes gaming bad.

tensai_oni
2017-01-21, 08:21 AM
The GM is new but he already starts his career with the wrong foot forward.

Reducing availability of magic items won't make for a low magic campaign, it will make for one where spellcasters are even more powerful and versatile than melee sluggers.

The GM gives me an impression of someone who, despite lacking in experience, seems pretty full of himself and is unwilling to listen to others and compromise. He may get better at this with experience, but frankly it sounds like quitting early just saved you a lot of headaches in the long run.

Mastikator
2017-01-21, 08:44 AM
If he changes the rules for a character that you've planned ahead of time then you should be allowed a chance to change your character retroactively, including materials. If he refuses you the chance to retroactively change your character such that it isn't totally screwed then I'd probably leave if I were you.

DonEsteban
2017-01-21, 09:30 AM
The GM gives me an impression of someone who, despite lacking in experience, seems pretty full of himself and is unwilling to listen to others and compromise. He may get better at this with experience, but frankly it sounds like quitting early just saved you a lot of headaches in the long run.

I really don't know how you got to this conclusion from the data provided. I think you're just being negative.

Ellindsey, to me your DM gives me an impression of someone who has a vision, but doesn't share it with you. You expected to be able to craft items, now you can't. It's perfactly normal to be thrown off by this. However, being mad at him, with or without reason, is just a waste of time. Here's what I'd probably do:
- Tell him what you like about the game
- Tell him how his decision made you feel and how it prevents you from enjoying the game
- Ask him to share his vision of the campaign with you players
- Think how you can help realising this vision; explain to him if there's something that doesn't work for you and what changes would be necessary or desirable
- Decide if this results in something you can enjoy. If so, try to make it work. Otherwise leave rather sooner than later.

ScrivenerofDoom
2017-01-21, 09:35 AM
If I did something like that to my players I would offer a trade-off.

DMs should be able to change the game but, if it changes something fundamental to a character, then fair play demands that there be a trade-off. If I had been the DM I would have made sure you were offered something that kept you happy while consistent with the changes that needed to be made. In your case, that may have been as simple as a short quest to a potent magical site where, after dealing with the threat and other complications, you would have been free to make those items on your list. Both parties effectively "win".

Kish
2017-01-21, 09:44 AM
Well, you already said you opted to quit the game, so does this thread still have a central question?

I don't think you should be mad at him at all unless you think he was actively being unfair or picking on you personally, not just having a GM style that you don't like. Quitting, neutrally, was probably a good idea. If you want validation that he shouldn't have made the specific house rules he did, on the other hand, you came to the right place for it.

Geddy2112
2017-01-21, 10:09 AM
It is reasonable to be upset. You not only lost a feat, but you have wasted time and effort in session that you cannot get back.

Reactionary rulings are usually a bad sign, as are super controlling DM's. These are also common in new DM's. That said, if you like the game, you should stay.

As others have said, you deserve compensation for what you have lost that is now banned. At minimum, this is a different feat. The gold you gathered is fluid currency, so no issue there, but any special materials should come with a full refund if they were specific to the item or whatever.

I would explain that in pathfinder the game assumes wealth by level and things like cloaks of resistance, stat boosting belts/headbands, ring of protection, magic weapons and armor factor into CR rating of enemy challenges. Show them the automatic bonus progression rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression) which are great for a low or no magic item campaign.

ellindsey
2017-01-21, 10:54 AM
Yeah, after further discussion last night, the GM has made it clear that he doesn't really care about the rules and intends to rewrite them on a session by session basis as he sees fit. I explained that the Pathfinder rules were deliberately balanced such that the various stat/saving throw/to-hit/etc boosting items are expected to be there as you level up and this factors into the CR system. He responded that we were already too strong and having no trouble defeating his monsters, so we obviously didn't need them. He also said that I wouldn't enjoy his GMing style going forward and asked me to not return to the game.

I was really enjoying the world and story and roleplaying, but I can't deal with Calvinball rules.

Anonymouswizard
2017-01-21, 11:22 AM
Yeah, after further discussion last night, the GM has made it clear that he doesn't really care about the rules and intends to rewrite them on a session by session basis as he sees fit. I explained that the Pathfinder rules were deliberately balanced such that the various stat/saving throw/to-hit/etc boosting items are expected to be there as you level up and this factors into the CR system. He responded that we were already too strong and having no trouble defeating his monsters, so we obviously didn't need them. He also said that I wouldn't enjoy his GMing style going forward and asked me to not return to the game.

I was really enjoying the world and story and roleplaying, but I can't deal with Calvinball rules.

Oh boy, the age old problem of 'if I make the PCs underbalanced I can just throw weaker enemies at them'. Or rather, the fact that D&D/Pathfinder is borked enough as it is that 'reasonable challenge' shouldn't really be in the game dictionary because it's hard to determine how reasonable a challenge is for a given party.

In reality, at this point in the game your characters should have a smattering of +1s and +2s in magical gear (say +1 weapon, a +2 to save amulet, and a +1 shield), the absence of which makes a small impact, but a hard to notice one. In fact, the requirement for magical gear is why I stopped running D&D, I like handing out goodies as rewards (oh, you rescued the viscount's daughter from the dragon? He can't afford to pay you in gold but he does have a sword of badass he can give you) but I don't like having to track if I've given players the right bonuses or gold to hit WBL guidelines.

It really sounds like this GM is running the wrong game. It sounds like he'd prefer something along the lines of D6 Fantasy (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/20448/D6-Fantasy?term=d6+fant&test_epoch=0&it=1) or FUDGE, which are a lot looser than Pathfinder is.

D+1
2017-01-21, 11:48 AM
This is a new DM. I'd cut'em some slack.
All new DM's definitely need slack - but slack doesn't cover changing major rules midstream, unannounced, unanticipated, and non-negotiable. New DM's need to have players who are forgiving and understanding when they make bad choices. THIS IS A BAD CHOICE. It doesn't mean you don't forgive the DM for the error - but it doesn't mean the DM gets to continue to perpetrate the error to it's inevitable conclusion either. The DM should see a player having justifiable objections to major rules changes and realize that if it's my-way-or-the-highway the players MAY take the highway option and then he's nowhere. Players are not guinea pigs for the DM to freely experiment on, especially in a rules system the DM is unfamiliar with, and with players already ACTIVELY objecting to the experimentation and nerfing.

DM's need to have some freedom to try new rules - but those rules should be provided in their entirety to players so that players can assess whether they want to participate or not, and which changes they might want to negotiate. DM's have to accept that players DESERVE a reliable set of rules when creating their characters and choosing how to advance those characters.

The DM is off base here. If he realizes in the middle of his game that he'd prefer to try to create a whole new crafting system from scratch then he doesn't get to just announce the old one is DOA and the replacement will be built on the fly as the game proceeds. That's asking WAY WAY too much of even the most understanding players. He needs to be able to hand a set of house rules docs to the players and at least say, "This system obviously is experimental and thus may need to change, HOWEVER, this is the way I figure it will work." Players then get the opportunity to look it over, perhaps find a few flaws and omissions the DM failed to find, negotiate the implementation, and ultimately still decide if they want to buy into the whole idea.

A new DM also needs to learn to live with things he doesn't like simply because it makes a better game for the players. If you're not keeping your players preferences and enjoyment in mind you're in the wrong chair. Even if a DM is ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that the original way will end in disaster then if he wants to learn to be a better DM he should still do his level best to make it work. If it ends in tears he gets to pat himself on the back and say, "I told you so." If he makes it work - well, DAMN! He made it work! And what, then, was the point of preemptively trying to push the players to buy into something INCOMPLETE and utterly experimental?

Oh, and COMMUNICATION. The lack thereof is the doom of 95% of all D&D campaigns. Player sounds like he's talking but the DM isn't listening.

Ninja-Radish
2017-01-21, 06:31 PM
Wow, I'm sorry OP, but you have an absolutely terrible DM. Pathfinder is not a system where you can successfully ignore the rules and just "wing it". Also, all the restrictions he's placing on you and your group are ludicrous. If it were me, I'd leave the game, but I can't tell you what to do.

The Glyphstone
2017-01-21, 10:18 PM
Sounds like being booted was to your best mutual interest, then.

Lemmy
2017-01-21, 11:17 PM
He wants to completely house-rule the crafting system. Which is OK, I'm just really thrown off by him announcing this just as I was starting to craft. He's also announced that he intends to continue to rewrite the rules as the campaign goes on session by session, which is something I can't stand.This is a very serious red flag for me. Pretty much a deal-breaker. I don't mind changing rules mid-campaign, as long as the changes are discussed AND AGREED by all players (GM included), but just the GM making up things as it goes is something I can't tolerate, specially when the GM has already displayed a tendency of thinking every little thing players do is overpowered and/or nerfed stuff as soon as you picked it up.

I'll echo the voices advising you to talk to your GM, but I gotta say: In your place, I'd start looking for gaming alternatives.

Talakeal
2017-01-22, 12:28 AM
One time I had a very similar experiance. The DM and I had a long conversation about how he was going to follow the raw item customization rules despite my insistence that they were broken.

So when I got high enough level I took craft wondrous item and spent many hours planning what all I was going to make, as one does when playing 3.x.

Then the DM told me cistom items were banned and the gp price to craft items out of the book was doubled.

I got extremely mad and stormed out, and then went home and got into a huge fight with my parents (this was during my very emotionally unstable teen years) but eventually I calmed down and came back and apologized.

That was nowhere near the end of the BS from that DM, I finally lost interest in the campaign after being hit by a home brewed artifact that stripped my (wizard) character of the ability to cast spells or use magic items for an entire adventure.

So, yeah... you miht be over reacting or you might be saving yourself a lot of trouble in the long run. Hard to tell from here.

kyoryu
2017-01-22, 11:08 AM
Meh, I'd just ask the GM to let me modify the character appropriately.

I'm also not a huge fan of magic items being super freely available, either.

Kish
2017-01-22, 11:37 AM
He also said that I wouldn't enjoy his GMing style going forward and asked me to not return to the game.
Ah, good, a happy ending.

Kelb_Panthera
2017-01-22, 11:57 AM
He's also announced that he intends to continue to rewrite the rules as the campaign goes on session by session, which is something I can't stand.

To me, this is the redest of red flags. Though the line about "killing my monsters too easily" is also troubling if that's how he actually put it.

When things aren't working out like you think they should, you change how you set them up, not how the rules work. At least not until you're familiar enough with "normal" to make well-informed decisions on how to best implement those changes. Wanting to do it on a session by session -screams- control issues.

Make no mistake, the crafting changes were entirely punitive. He probably thinks you were trying to sneak something past him rather than correcting his bone-head move of heavily restricting item availability. If he knew the rules, he could've just said "no" when you asked about craft wondrous item. He could've already had his houserules worked out ahead of time. He could've been giving you the expected bonuses as part of normal leveling. Instead, he just screwed up again to preserve his first mistake.

Just as well that he booted you. He's heading down the path that leads to "Holy crap, my DM is an idiot" threads like this one. Nobody wants to be a part of that.

Knaight
2017-01-22, 12:17 PM
This sounds like a major style mismatch - the GM is solid on the non-rules aspect, but the rules themselves are amorphous to some extent as they change to try and get around the setting. That can work just fine (although why you'd use Pathfinder as the base game if you were going to do that is beyond me), but it doesn't fit well with players who favor knowing the rules ahead of time (which, again, choosing Pathfinder introduces a selection bias towards exactly these players). On top of that, covering why the rule changes are there at least briefly is generally a good idea.

GungHo
2017-01-23, 10:18 AM
He also said that I wouldn't enjoy his GMing style going forward and asked me to not return to the game.
"You can't quit me, you're fired."