Help designing a Shadow Melee Sorcerer

[Isitaris]

Hi guys,

it's been some time since the idea of creating a Sword-Dagger-Rapier-any other weapon wielder Sorcerer.
The SCAG cantrips let me hope for a build that could at least not be totally useless : they are basically the extra-attacks of magic users, without taking a whole class ability (though they do not stacks de DEX or STR bonuses).
Twinned Booming Blade (BB), Quickened Green Fire Blade (GFB), though rather ressources-hungry, are some great way of taking the most out of your turns.

Though rather squishy, a Sorcerers benefits from a lot of spells who can greatly reduce attack threats, and I convinced myself that the ability granted by the Shadow lineage to see through magical darkness and to cast Darkness was a really great asset ! In addition to putting opponents' attacks at disadvantage (both ranged and melee ones), it also prevents spellcasters to actually target you directly (though they could still launch a fireball at random)
But that doesn't stop there ! It also grants you advantage on your attacks ! That's nearly a +20% chances of hitting.

The DEX path seems to me the most appealing, as DEX is in 5e a great Ability Skill.
Going DEX 20 and using Mage Armor gives you 18, that become 20 if you get one way or the other the shield mastery. Then you can add the Shield spell (+5AC), and on top of that disadvantage on opponents' attack rolls with Darkness.
Considering Shield, Mage Armor and the Darkness feature from the lineage are all pre-5 abilities, that seems to me a considerable ability to dodge attacks.
And on top of that : better saves against a great lot of spells !

I'm still though wondering on some details :
-I'm planning on starting as a Sorcerer, and then later dipping one level in Warrior to get shield proficiency (+2AC), and on top of that getting rapier proficiency (that's not that much more damage than a dagger but why not, it's free), Second wind and a Fighting Style. Is it worth it ? Would it be a good idea to push up to lv2 Fighter later for Action Surge ? Would starting Fighter be a better idea ? (+4 HP, but strength saves instead of Charisma ones)
-Would be STR builds a better alternative (+1 AC with defense fighting style, but disadvantage on stealth check to hide in our Darkness and lesser save against a lot of spells)
-Considering feats, War Caster is great, but would lucky be a good idea to invest in later, because crits happens (even with disadvantage).
-Is the Shadow lineage that good an idea ? against the Draconic one, it does effectively costs you a level 1 spell slot per fight (Mage Armor), you lose the CHAR bonus to GFB, and the +1 HP per level.
-How much points would you put in CON ? Would a 10 CON score be totally unthinkable ? I like to put some points into INT, even though that's useless except for skill checks, and with 27 point-buy, I came up with a 8 16 10 13 10 16 distribution (with Variant human, getting either War caster or Lucky, depending on the character, as free feat)

What do you guys think ? Am I heading in the wrong direction ? Could that be actually viable ?

[Haydensan]

Hi guys,

it's been some time since the idea of creating a Sword-Dagger-Rapier-any other weapon wielder Sorcerer.
The SCAG cantrips let me hope for a build that could at least not be totally useless : they are basically the extra-attacks of magic users, without taking a whole class ability (though they do not stacks de DEX or STR bonuses).
Twinned Booming Blade (BB), Quickened Green Fire Blade (GFB), though rather ressources-hungry, are some great way of taking the most out of your turns.

Though rather squishy, a Sorcerers benefits from a lot of spells who can greatly reduce attack threats, and I convinced myself that the ability granted by the Shadow lineage to see through magical darkness and to cast Darkness was a really great asset ! In addition to putting opponents' attacks at disadvantage (both ranged and melee ones), it also prevents spellcasters to actually target you directly (though they could still launch a fireball at random)
But that doesn't stop there ! It also grants you advantage on your attacks ! That's nearly a +20% chances of hitting.

The DEX path seems to me the most appealing, as DEX is in 5e a great Ability Skill.
Going DEX 20 and using Mage Armor gives you 18, that become 20 if you get one way or the other the shield mastery. Then you can add the Shield spell (+5AC), and on top of that disadvantage on opponents' attack rolls with Darkness.
Considering Shield, Mage Armor and the Darkness feature from the lineage are all pre-5 abilities, that seems to me a considerable ability to dodge attacks.
And on top of that : better saves against a great lot of spells !

I'm still though wondering on some details :
-I'm planning on starting as a Sorcerer, and then later dipping one level in Warrior to get shield proficiency (+2AC), and on top of that getting rapier proficiency (that's not that much more damage than a dagger but why not, it's free), Second wind and a Fighting Style. Is it worth it ? Would it be a good idea to push up to lv2 Fighter later for Action Surge ? Would starting Fighter be a better idea ? (+4 HP, but strength saves instead of Charisma ones)
-Would be STR builds a better alternative (+1 AC with defense fighting style, but disadvantage on stealth check to hide in our Darkness and lesser save against a lot of spells)
-Considering feats, War Caster is great, but would lucky be a good idea to invest in later, because crits happens (even with disadvantage).
-Is the Shadow lineage that good an idea ? against the Draconic one, it does effectively costs you a level 1 spell slot per fight (Mage Armor), you lose the CHAR bonus to GFB, and the +1 HP per level.
-How much points would you put in CON ? Would a 10 CON score be totally unthinkable ? I like to put some points into INT, even though that's useless except for skill checks, and with 27 point-buy, I came up with a 8 16 10 13 10 16 distribution (with Variant human, getting either War caster or Lucky, depending on the character, as free feat)

What do you guys think ? Am I heading in the wrong direction ? Could that be actually viable ?

I'm not 100℅ sure of the maths off the top of my head but what I am 99℅ sure of is that advantage is more than 20℅ chance increase to hit. Largely dependent on the what you need to roll, it gets less significant as enemy AC increases.

Anyway, considering this. I really like STAR builds if going melee spec with a dip somewhere to pick heavy armour. I know you talked about the heavy armour giving you disadvantage to hide in the darkness but on a strength build you won't really be pumping Dex so I think it's a bit of a waste to hide. Also the near constant advantage on attacks is huge if you use GWM.

Don't have much to say on Dex builds, bit more flexible with there options in combat and out with Dex being so universal. Would probably go draconic with dex myself to get the +cha to damage and the 13 base AC

[Gastronomie]

Mage Armor is not "per fight", but rather "per day", with a duration of 8 hours. Of course, that's unless you fight in the early morning and later fight at midnight or something.

I agree that Shadow Sorcerers have a lot of abilities that synergize with going melee. I've got a guide written concerning Paladin/Sorcerers (the link is in my sig), and Shadow Sorcerers are one of the best origin options for that build. You could also go Fighter/Sorcerer - either works, but I like Paladins with their Divine Smite and healing for extra versatility, as well as WIS save proficiency if you start off there (though you need to take War Caster or Resilient CON later for better concentration).

Regardless of whether you go Paladin/Sorcerer or Fighter/Sorcerer, or simply go pure Sorcerer, I think reading my guide could give you ideas, especially concerning spell and weapon selection.

[Sception]

If you want to multiclass a caster class and a physical class for a melee gish, you're generally better of starting with the physical class for the proficiencies and HQ to be able to fight up close from level one. Things can get weird in a party of some characacter's entire method of contribution changes several levels in.

Most casty multiclass gishes like to mix with (and start as) fighter for con proficiecy, action surge, and so on. Starting with one to two levels of fighter is practically required for Bladelock builds, for instance. But in the case of sorcerers in particular, Gastronomie's aforementioned guide has me very convinced of paladin as the best choice, for cha synergy, divine strike, and so on. Divine Strike in particular feels very sorcerer-y. You can channel spell slots into sorcery points and vice versa, or you can channel spell slots into straight into damage on a hit. It's all very fluid and flexible, and, combined with the SCAG cantrips, really helps tie your magic ability and combat ability together mechanically to bring your theme to life on the table.

You seem to want to be mostly a sorcerer, with some melee, so I wouldn't spend a long time in paladin, though paladin is probably the best and best put together PC class on its own, apart from maybe an over-reliance on daily resources, at least through level 11, so you certainly could. But starting with two levels of paladin and then turning to sorcerer forever would probably put you off on the right foot. Maybe three levels, if you can convince your DM to let you use the oathbreaker subclass from the DMG instead of taking a regular oath, since the channel divinities are fantastic, and thematically synergize perfectly with the dark magic tone of the shadow sorcerer.

You can go strength with the heaviest armor you can find or afford, a greatsword for damage, a halberd for reach, or a longsword with a hand open for casting until you can pick up warcaster to fill it with a shield.

Or you can go dex with light armor, a rapier, and a hand open for casting until you can pick up warcaster for a shield or off-hand weapon.

The dex path has better initiative, which is really good for you, but has more onerous stat requirements, since you'd be more dependent on maxing out your dex than the strength build is on maxing out strength, and you'd still need strength 13 to qualify for paladin multiclassing, at least according to the rules as written (some DMs might be willing to fudge it).


But seriously, just read Gastronomie's guide, it's one of the best put together I've seen for a 5e build (or cluster of builds, rather), and has me quite excited to play a sorcadin myself next chance I get.

[Specter]

If you have a feat to spare, take Sentinel. That way, when folks try to leave your shadow, they can't. That's a great trick.

Yes. Definitely take two fighter levels. With a breastplate and Defense, you get a great Armor Class, and with Action Surge you can Darkness up and still attack.

Another way to do this is Fighter 2/Warlock X with Devil's Sight, if you're interested.

[Sception]

If you're going with the sentinel feat (something you can do with fighter or with paladin), then instead of Defense, take Tunnel Fighter (from the same UA as Shadow Sorcerer). Burns a bonus action each round to activate, but lets you make opportunity attacks without spending a reaction, so you can lock down multiple enemies in your zone of darkness.

I though together a sketch of a sentinel-using oathbreaker/shadow sorcerer build (though I'm no expert optimizer, so I'm sure others could do better) in what is currently the last post of Gastronomie's guide.

[Isitaris]

First, thank you all for your suggestions !

I had already read your (Great !) guide on Sorcadins, Gastronomie, however the lore aspects of paladins do not attract me (oathbreaker could do, but it still suppose that I made an oath at some point). Another class I had considered was rogue, for the Hide bonus action, though that would have required at least 2 levels, would not have given me shield proficiency, or a fighting style, or second wind.
Concerning the STR or DEX choice, I decided to go DEX, as I rolled a 17, which allowed me to jump to 20 DEX at 4th level, while still getting a free feat at lv1 by taking a Human.
As I do not have extra-attacks, I decided that the 10 damages granted by GWM were not enough to make up for the -5 to attacks rolls, by comparison with an action spent into BB while in Darkness + free movement.
I also thought about starting as a Fighter, but decided that I prefered the CHAR save over the STR one for my character (Heavy armor useless as I'm going DEX, I do lose 4HP though : decision based purely on how I was imagining my character)
I think I'll most likely take another Fighter level to get Action Surge, but I'm bonna wait to get some more Sorcerer levels. That 5th level Animate Objects looks really nice :)