Fixing the descriptive feats

[Mendicant]

This thread is primarily about the +2/+2 feats and the three save boosters.

There are two problems with these feats:
A: They're generally bad to mediocre.
B: They're the most evocative, descriptively named feats. This isn't bad on its face, but coupled with A makes things worse.

"Lightning Reflexes" or "Acrobatic" should be powerful, character defining choices, something more like a strictly positive FATE aspect than a nothingburger 10% to two skills or a flavorless boost to a weak stat. Every time I steer a new player away from these towards something more useful, I'm kinda bummed out. It also bums me out that the people with "Iron Will" tend to have the weakest Will saves in the party. The approach I usually see to making these feats more powerful also leaves me cold. Adding rerolls or just upping the skill bonus keeps the benefit pointy, usually still isn't enough to make the feat worthwhile, and creates numbers bloat. It's akin to giving fighters more and bigger damage boosts.

I've been playing with lateral expansion of these feats, where I have them incorporate other feats, skill tricks, or grant other abilities. Ideally, these feats unlock thematically related suites of bonuses and abilities that are powerful and not available as class abilities (I don't want, say, Rogues to never take Stealthy because its benefits are redundant). In some cases one of these descriptive feats might get cannibalized so that others can take part of its portfolio. I don't have clear ideas for all of them though, and I don't yet have a clear benchmark determined for what is an appropriate improvement. I'm working with the Pathfinder skill list, minus fly, but I think the feats would be fairly easy to translate back and forth.

Some examples or jumping off points:

Acrobatic: +2 bonus to Acrobatics checks (plus balance if using that list), add AC dodge bonuses to checks made to avoid provoking AoO's, and ignore five feet of difficult terrain when you move.
Alertness: +2 bonus to Perception checks (or spot and listen), and you can take 12 on initiative checks.
Athletic: +2 bonus to Climb, Jump, and Swim checks, the Run feat, maybe endurance?
Educated: +2 bonus to any two of the following: any knowledge, linguistics or perform, one additional language, and any skill you improve with this feat is a class skill.
Iron Will: +2 bonus to Will saves, +2 to checks to resist Intimidate, Diehard
Negotiator: +2 bonus to Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks and...... ?
Stealthy: +2 bonus to Stealth checks, move full speed without penalty, reduce the stealth penalty for sniping by 5.

These are obviously preliminary, but hopefully you get the idea. What would you suggest?


Great Fortitude
You get a +2 bonus on all Fortitude saving throws. You additionally gain all the benefits of the subsumed Endurance feat. If you are subject to a pain effect, or an effect that would paralyze, nauseate, or stun you, you may take 15 points of damage to ignore the effect for a number of rounds equal to your Fortitude save.

Lightning Reflexes
You get a +2 bonus on all Reflex saving throws and initiative checks. You may use an immediate action to grant an adjacent ally a +2 to bonus to a Reflex saving throw or to AC against a single effect or attack, but you take a commensurate penalty to Reflex saving throws and AC until the start of your next turn. You must make the decision to intervene before the effect or attack is resolved.

Iron Will
You get a +2 bonus on all Will saving throws. When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You continue to lose hit points and make stabilization checks as normal, and if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 additional point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.



Acrobatic
You gain a +2 bonus to acrobatics and escape artist checks. In addition, you may ignore 5 feet of difficult terrain per round, and you add any dodge bonus to AC as a bonus to acrobatics checks.

Alert
You gain a +2 bonus to perception and sense motive skill checks, and you may take 12 on initiative checks.

Animal Affinity
You gain a +2 bonus on handle animal and ride checks. You may make a DC 20 handle animal check to train a single animal that already obeys you, such as an animal companion or mount, in a feat that it meets the prerequisites for, as if you were teaching it a trick. Only one animal can enjoy the benefits of this training at a time, and you must be in regular contact with it--at least 24 hours per week--or it forgets the feat and must be retrained. You can retrain it into another feat at any time so

Athletic
You gain a +2 bonus on climb and swim skill checks, as well as grapple checks and acrobatics checks made to jump. You also gain the benefits of the subsumed Run feat.
(This is, in general, the kind of thing I'm aiming for

Persuasive
You gain a +2 bonus to diplomacy and intimidate checks. In addition, you may substitute your Strength modifier for your Charisma modifier on intimidate checks, and may stack intimidate checks with other sources of fear. Finally, you can make a DC 20 diplomacy check as a full-round action in order to grant an ally an additional saving throw against an ongoing compulsion, charm, or fear effect that they have already failed their saving throw against. They gain a +2 bonus if you beat the check by 5 or more. You must recognize that they are under such an effect before attempting the check.

Deceitful
You gain a +2 bonus to disguise and bluff checks. You also gain all the benefits of the Improved Feint feat, and may add your Charisma modifier to CMD.

Canny
Choose 3 skills from among the following: any craft, disable device, appraise, or profession. You gain a +2 bonus to checks made with these skills. You also gain +1 skill point per level, and your base price when selling items is 60% of their list price, rather than 50%.

Educated
Choose 3 skills from among the following: any knowledge, linguistics, or perform. You gain a +2 bonus to checks made with these skills. You also gain +1 skill point per level and a free language known.

Magic Affinity
You gain a +2 bonus to spellcraft and use magic device checks.
(No other bonus here, as of yet. Maybe ever. UMD is a great skill as it is, and I can't think of extra bennies for this that aren't just fat kisses for casters, who will be fine without them.)

Self Sufficient
You gain a +2 bonus to heal and survival checks, as well as to damage rolls against animals. In addition, you gain double the normal hit points from natural healing.
(Meh)

Stealthy
You gain a +2 bonus to stealth and sleight of hand checks. In addition, you may move your full speed when sneaking without penalty.



Swiftness
Your base speed increases by 10', you may follow an opponent that tries to take a 5' step away from you into the space they vacated as an immediate action, and you ignore 5' of difficult terrain per round.

Toughness
You gain +3 hit points, an additional hit point per level after 3rd, and DR 1/--. You automatically stabilize after dropping to less than zero hit points.

[Flickerdart]

For the weaker skill feats (not the ones that boost UMD and stuff), let them turn skills into class skills, and give bonus skill points per level to put in them. A character that takes Acrobatic is now set for his entire career, even if he's a half-orc fighter who doesn't have two skill points to rub together.

[Vaz]

Save boosters should add 1/3 class level rounding down to your base save.

[Ruslan]

This thread is primarily about the +2/+2 feats and the three save boosters.

There are two problems with these feats:
A: They're generally bad to mediocre.
B: They're the most evocative, descriptively named feats. This isn't bad on its face, but coupled with A makes things worse.

I did something like that.

Lightning Reflexes: You gain +2 to Reflex saves and +1 to Armor Class.
Great Fortitude: You gain +2 to Fortitude saves and the benefits of the Diehard feat.
Iron Will: You gain +2 to Will saves. Three times per day, when you make a Dexterity or Fortitude save to take half-damage from a spell or effect, you may make a Will save instead. [flavor: you will some of the damage to go away]

[torrasque666]

For the weaker skill feats (not the ones that boost UMD and stuff), let them turn skills into class skills, and give bonus skill points per level to put in them. A character that takes Acrobatic is now set for his entire career, even if he's a half-orc fighter who doesn't have two skill points to rub together.

So something like "makes X a class skill and is treated as if it had max ranks at all times" I think I've seen that as a fix (one of many) for Truenamers and Truenaming Training.

[Mendicant]

I did something like that.

Lightning Reflexes: You gain +2 to Reflex saves and +1 to Armor Class.
Great Fortitude: You gain +2 to Fortitude saves and the benefits of the Diehard feat.
Iron Will: You gain +2 to Will saves. Three times per day, when you make a Dexterity or Fortitude save to take half-damage from a spell or effect, you may make a Will save instead. [flavor: you will some of the damage to go away]

This is more what I was thinking--these feats as a small collection of benefits or abilities rather than a more narrow bonus. I like Diehard flavorwise as attached to Iron Will, personally, but it obviously makes sense attached to GF too.

I was thinking of Great Fortitude being accompanied by Endurance and 1hp per HD version of Toughness. I've also considered letting players with GF spend hit points to negate effects like stuns or pain or nausea. It would give Barbarians and Fighters a use for the feat, as another way to spend an abundant resource.


ETA:
I like Flickerdart's suggestion too, but more as something to occupy the conceptual space Skill Focus takes up. For the descriptive feats I think a lateral upgrade is better, and I'd rather they were appealing to characters who are already competant in the improved areas. Ideally, "Acrobatic" would also be highly useful to somebody's high Dex rogue with buckets of skill points.

[Troacctid]

The +2/+2 feats add those skills as class skills and give you a small number of bonus skill points.

The save-booster feats give a +4 bonus instead of +2.

[Ruslan]

Here's an idea I had for some of the +2/+2 feats:

Athlete: Gain +2 to Climb, Jump and Swim checks, and all armor check penalties to chose checks are halved.
Acrobat: Gain +2 to Balance, Tumble, Escape Artist checks, and all armor check penalties to chose checks are halved.

[Mendicant]

I like those, though I'd still want some more bennies attached. Run is easy to add to Athletic, for instance. It makes sense, it does more than improve a few checks, and Run rarely gets taken either.

In that same vein of feat consolidation, I think Deceitful would be markedly improved by making it +2 to Bluff, +2 to Disguise, and rolling in Improved Feint. Maybe also add Cha to CMD or CMB if you're running pathfinder.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Some feats aren't meant to be interesting, they just need to get the job done. A character with Stealthy needs to be Stealthy.


Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will: fort/ref/will is now a good save for all your classes. If they're already a good save for any of your classes, you get an extra +2.

Now, it's a 'cover your weakness' feat, as intended. I'd replace it as prerequisite for Incantatrix/any caster PrC, though - caster entry assures a good will save already.


I would do a similar thing for Skill Focus: add as a class skill, provide free ranks (equal to 1/2 max ranks?). Add a free skill trick when you hit 5, 10, 15 and 20 ranks.


For the +2/+2 feats, it'd make sense to tie the skills together, keeping the bonuses. Any rank you buy in one skill gets you a rank in the other (if one skill is not a class skill, you can increase it through the other).

[Mendicant]

Some feats aren't meant to be interesting, they just need to get the job done. A character with Stealthy needs to be Stealthy.

Well, I have two answers to this:
First: "Stealthy" can conceivably cover quite a bit of ground, mechanically, outside of a skill boost. Giving someone with Athletic the Run feat, or someone with Great Fortitude the Endurance feat still "gets the job done" in terms of making them more Athletic or ...Fortitudinous or whatever. In addition, it cleans up some other meh feats that are taking up space.

Second: I think that these descriptive feats should be prioritized when it comes to making things interesting. Acrobatic or Deceitful are strong statements about a character--they don't just provide a mechanical benefit or slot into a build, they actually speak to personality, background, body type, and so on. They should do more, and more interesting things.

[J-H]

I still take the +2 save feats occasionally. They stack with everything, and there's no other way to get that +2 (Otyugh hole, etc, sure) unless you Wish for it.

Going from a +1 Reflex save to a +3 Reflex save is a worthwhile boost against a DC15 spell. It takes "succeed on 14 or higher" (35% chance to save) to "suceed on 12 or higher" (45% chance to save). That's a 28.5% boost in my chance of making a DC 15 save.

Luck of Heroes is usually a better feat, but at higher levels the bonus from a Luckstone makes it obsolete.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, I have two answers to this:
First: "Stealthy" can conceivably cover quite a bit of ground, mechanically, outside of a skill boost. Giving someone with Athletic the Run feat, or someone with Great Fortitude the Endurance feat still "gets the job done" in terms of making them more Athletic or ...Fortitudinous or whatever. In addition, it cleans up some other meh feats that are taking up space.

Second: I think that these descriptive feats should be prioritized when it comes to making things interesting. Acrobatic or Deceitful are strong statements about a character--they don't just provide a mechanical benefit or slot into a build, they actually speak to personality, background, body type, and so on. They should do more, and more interesting things.
Agreed on the first, certainly. Those feats don't have to be flat numbers, although I do think that is their primary function (and they fail at it, clearly). Sometimes, you just want a feat that lets you not fail rolls (like a bauble of skill +15, but feat-y, not item-y).


Not necessarily agreed on the second. The key question is: When you have Stealthy, who do your market it to?

People who are stealthy, but want to be Really Stealthy?
People who are not stealthy, but want to spend a feat to be pretty stealthy?

You could make Stealthy the feat that stealthy people take to become Really Stealthy. In that case, the feat is a strong statement: anyone with Stealthy is a paragon of stealthiness, and it's probably a crucial part of your character. In that case, combine Stealthy with Darkstalker and a silence/invisibility SLA. New capabilities that go beyond what regular ol' Hide/Move Silently can do.

You can also make it the feat that non-stealthy people take to become stealthy. In that case, it's not such a strong statement. You're X, but with a bit of stealth; not especially much, and not of a particularly strange kind, but still stealth. Taking Stealthy is a way to mix a few archetypes, and your stealth is likely not your primary trick. In that case, improve the feat with free ranks, skill bonuses, class skills and so on - anything to bolt stealth on a not-natively-stealthy chassis.


In short, is it stealthy as in "stealthy rogue" (stealthy amongst the stealthy), or as in "stealthy cleric" (stealthy amongst the heavy-armour wearing lead-footed sermon-intoning ...)?

[Mendicant]

Yeah, I see Iron Will especially get taken fairly often as it helps patch a critical vulnerability. That said, I don't think adding a fillip would be game-breaking. A version of Diehard that lets you stay conscious but doesn't automatically stabilize you would make the feat more powerful and would also make it less passive, since staying on your feat becomes a more interesting choice.


Not necessarily agreed on the second. The key question is: When you have Stealthy, who do your market it to?

People who are stealthy, but want to be Really Stealthy?
People who are not stealthy, but want to spend a feat to be pretty stealthy?

I would greatly prefer the former, if forced to choose.

The ideal scenario would be that you can take Stealthy as a baseline, if you want, and be confident that by itself it will keep you meaningfully ahead of your peers with no more need for investment. If you're not a naturally stealthy class, it brings you about online with a Rogue that hasn't optimized aggressively for stealth. If you're naturally stealthy already, it ups your capabilities and expands your uses for them. Finally, it will also cooperate well with the other pieces in a feat-hungry, optimized build, but without making it such an obvious choice that it's practically mandatory.

The ethic here is that if I'm building a new character, and I want him to be sneaky, "Stealthy" is actually an obvious, useful choice as a starting point. It might not work or be necessary for every build, but it's hard to pass up.

[Flickerdart]

"Stealthy" seems like an obvious combination with Darkstalker, perhaps giving scaling immunities to various senses. Given how precious feats are, "good at stealth" should probably not be a multi-feat concept.

[Deophaun]

Yeah, I see Iron Will especially get taken fairly often as it helps patch a critical vulnerability meet prerequisites.
FIFY.

I'd like to note that these feats are often cheap; they're given away as low-power bonuses (e.g. Warblade) or just flat out able to be purchased (e.g. Iron Wyrm Vault). The game basically prices them at the value of a half or even a third of a proper feat. For that reason I don't agree with the desire to bring them up in value.

Plus there's their impact on existing monsters. Take the "Will becomes a good save" fix: a lot of otherwise big, dumb bruisers have Iron Will to bring their terrible save up to middling; now they've got a great Will save.

Much better to create versions of Darkstalker or Master Pickpocket for the skills that don't have those.

[Mendicant]

"Stealthy" seems like an obvious combination with Darkstalker, perhaps giving scaling immunities to various senses. Given how precious feats are, "good at stealth" should probably not be a multi-feat concept.

Honestly, I'd rather the benefits from Darkstalker not be gated with a feat at all. Just tie them to a certain number of ranks, or set a high DC, and call it a day. That's a slightly different conversation though.



FIFY.

You and I play at different tables.

In any event, the game does not price these things at half the value of a normal feat. That you can pick up Nimble Fingers "for free" via a location that might not even be in your game even assuming you have that particular book available doesn't change the fact that it costs one feat, period, in the PHB/CRB. If we're concerned about monsters getting buffed, we can make a "Patch Will Save" feat that's NPC-only and replaces any mention of "Iron Will" in any sourcebook. Happily, the stat block will remain exactly the same.

[Deophaun]

If we're concerned about monsters getting buffed, we can make a "Patch Will Save" feat that's NPC-only and replaces any mention of "Iron Will" in any sourcebook. Happily, the stat block will remain exactly the same.
Except that all you're doing is changing the name of "Iron Will" to "Patch Will Save," and then creating a new feat called "Iron Will."

Which, with the exception of the musical name chairs, is exactly what I said is a better way. Thank you for agreeing.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, I'd rather the benefits from Darkstalker not be gated with a feat at all. Just tie them to a certain number of ranks, or set a high DC, and call it a day. That's a slightly different conversation though.

I'd rather monsters didn't get abilities that made character schticks irrelevant, but yes, it's a whole 'nother discussion.

[icefractal]

I started doing a revamp/fix of Pathfinder feats here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?263019-Pathfinder-Feats-That-Don-t-Make-Me-Sad&p=14303085). It stalled on the sheer number of feats, and the feeling that players probably didn't want to read a 10+ page house-rule document, but I did go through the core ones. For the ones mentioned here:


+2/+2 Skill Feats - In addition to the bonus, you get 1 reroll/day on each skill. At 10 ranks, you get 2 rerolls/day. Also, if your associated ability score is less than 16, it counts as 16 for these skills.

Great Fortitude / Iron Will / Lightning Reflexes - Includes the Greater version (which gives a reroll 1/day).

[Seerow]

The +2/+2 feats add those skills as class skills and give you a small number of bonus skill points.

I like this. As a generic feat, something like:

Skill Adept
Benefit: Pick two skills; Both of these skills are always treated as class skills for you. You gain a +3 bonus to all skill checks with each of those skills. Additionally, you gain 3 skill points, plus one additional skill point per level, that must be spent on these two skills or a skill trick relating to that skill. Skill tricks relating to either of these skills do not count against your normal maximum of skill tricks you may have learned at once.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take this feat, apply the benefit to two different skills.
Basically instead of 20 different +2/+2 feats and trying to figure out flavor bonuses for each of them, you have one generic feat that is fairly useful. 3.5 has characters always low on skill points, even the skill monkey classes; so it's a nice benefit. And if you want more unique buffs for skills, toss those into the skill trick category instead, and this feat still helps with that as well

And just for fun, some other skill related feats.

Skill Focus
Benefit: Choose one skill. Gain a +5 bonus to all uses of that skill. You gain the ability to take 10 on this skill, even in combat. If you already have that ability, you instead gain the ability to take 12 with this skill. Twice per day, you can choose to take a 20 on a skill check without taking any additional time. Any skill tricks you have relating to that skill may now be used at will instead of once per encounter.

Similar to skill adept, but moreso. No bonus skill points, instead you get big bonuses to actively using a single skill.

Educated
Benefit: Choose one knowledge skill you have ranks in. You treat a number of other knowledge skills equal to your intelligence modifier as if they had the same number of skill ranks invested. Additionally gain Literacy if you did not already have it, and you gain the ability to speak one additional language.

This one is modeled off of Versatile Performer, which isn't a great feat but it is a fun one. Probably could use something else to really make it shine. But then again maybe not. I can easily see anyone with Knowledge Devotion beelining for this as is



On the +save feats, as much as I would like to see something that converted the save in question into a Good save, or something along those lines, I think rerolls and immunities are the right way to go to make those feel right.

[Troacctid]

I like this. As a generic feat, something like:

Skill Adept
Benefit: Pick two skills; Both of these skills are always treated as class skills for you. You gain a +3 bonus to all skill checks with each of those skills. Additionally, you gain 3 skill points, plus one additional skill point per level, that must be spent on these two skills or a skill trick relating to that skill. Skill tricks relating to either of these skills do not count against your normal maximum of skill tricks you may have learned at once.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take this feat, apply the benefit to two different skills.
Basically instead of 20 different +2/+2 feats and trying to figure out flavor bonuses for each of them, you have one generic feat that is fairly useful. 3.5 has characters always low on skill points, even the skill monkey classes; so it's a nice benefit. And if you want more unique buffs for skills, toss those into the skill trick category instead, and this feat still helps with that as well
I'd just go with +2/+2 and 2 skill points to spend wherever, and they're class skills, and that's it. And Skill Focus is the same except replace the two +2s with one +3.

[Malimar]

It occurs to me that for the save boosters, you could have them grant Evasion/Mettle for that save (or Improved Evasion/Mettle if you already have Evasion/Mettle).

But that might make them too good.

[Bakkan]

Evasion can already be gained with two feats, and I hardly ever see people consider getting it that way. I think making it accessible with one feat is quite reasonable.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Evasion can already be gained with two feats, and I hardly ever see people consider getting it that way. I think making it accessible with one feat is quite reasonable.
I agree. Given that gaining evasion this way also gets you Uncanny Dodge, I'd price that as one feat each and be done with it.

[Bakkan]

I completely agree.

[Segev]

I have a google doc with a bunch of feats lying around, but can't look for it right now. I'll try to remember to do so later this evening.

But I had a trio of feats with the save-boosters as prerequisites which allowed you to basically spend hp 1:1 for a retroactive bonus to a saving throw. So with Great Fortitude and this feat, you could spend 10 hp to make a fortitude save you'd failed by 10, as an example. This ran on the theory that hp are not JUST "damage to your body," but represent a generic pool of luck, stamina, grit, and (yes) physical durability that prevent you from taking lethal wounds. So spending some of that pool could protect you from nasty effects due to your Great Fortitude, or Lightning Reflexes, or Iron Will.

[Flickerdart]

It occurs to me that for the save boosters, you could have them grant Evasion/Mettle for that save (or Improved Evasion/Mettle if you already have Evasion/Mettle).

But that might make them too good.

Evasion is granted at level 2 by a bunch of classes, it's not exactly top of the line.

[Segev]

Evasion is granted at level 2 by a bunch of classes, it's not exactly top of the line.

"Two class levels" is a pretty big investment compared to "one feat."

[Flickerdart]

"Two class levels" is a pretty big investment compared to "one feat."

The amount of class levels is not the point. The point is that it's a low-level ability.

[Mendicant]

I have a google doc with a bunch of feats lying around, but can't look for it right now. I'll try to remember to do so later this evening.

But I had a trio of feats with the save-boosters as prerequisites which allowed you to basically spend hp 1:1 for a retroactive bonus to a saving throw. So with Great Fortitude and this feat, you could spend 10 hp to make a fortitude save you'd failed by 10, as an example. This ran on the theory that hp are not JUST "damage to your body," but represent a generic pool of luck, stamina, grit, and (yes) physical durability that prevent you from taking lethal wounds. So spending some of that pool could protect you from nasty effects due to your Great Fortitude, or Lightning Reflexes, or Iron Will.

I really like this idea, but a 1:1 trade seems too cheap. The RNG just doesn't have the space on it to make that HP cost bite after low levels.

[Pleh]

My fix for these was to make the feats port in Star Wars Saga skill rules for the selected skills.

That is to say, you add half your character level (rounded down) to the indicated skill checks.

One time purchase, scaling skill bonus.

[Seerow]

I'd just go with +2/+2 and 2 skill points to spend wherever, and they're class skills, and that's it. And Skill Focus is the same except replace the two +2s with one +3.

I could see leaving it at +2/+2, but 2 skill points? That's a joke. Like if you're going to add that few skill points you may as well not even bother writing it down.

[Alent]

I could see leaving it at +2/+2, but 2 skill points? That's a joke. Like if you're going to add that few skill points you may as well not even bother writing it down.

Instead of 2 skill points, I think I'd try building a list of related skill tricks and say "you gain one of the following skill tricks, it does not count against your skill tricks known, and can use any skill trick in this list + relevant stat mod times per encounter/scene", or something.

[Troacctid]

I could see leaving it at +2/+2, but 2 skill points? That's a joke. Like if you're going to add that few skill points you may as well not even bother writing it down.
It's similar to how Apprentice does it. I think it's fine.

[Mendicant]

Instead of 2 skill points, I think I'd try building a list of related skill tricks and say "you gain one of the following skill tricks, it does not count against your skill tricks known, and can use any skill trick in this list + relevant stat mod times per encounter/scene", or something.

That is much more what I had in mind. 10% on the RNG is actually fine as far as a boost goes, but boosts are cheap to come by and boring. Cool new stuff to *do* with your boosted skill is where the money's at.

That said, I like the idea of some bonus skill points, maybe 1 per level, for Educated.

[Ruslan]

I always wanted mechanics for high-dexterity characters to help their allies by pushing them out of danger. So, without further ado, the Fixed Lighting Reflexes:



You get +2 to Reflex saves.
Whenever you make a Reflex save, roll two d20's and use the higher roll result.
An ally within 5' of you that is subjected to the same effect may use the other roll result if it's higher than his own.



So if you rolled 19 and 1, you can take the 19 and succeed.
And if you rolled 19 and 15, you can take the 19 as well, give the 15 to an ally, by pushing/pulling him out of danger, helping him scramble for cover, or whatever.

Too much? :smallwink:

[Troacctid]

I always wanted mechanics for high-dexterity characters to help their allies by pushing them out of danger. So, without further ado, the Fixed Lighting Reflexes:


So if you rolled 19 and 1, you can take the 19 and succeed.
And if you rolled 19 and 15, you can take the 19 as well, give the 15 to an ally, by pushing/pulling him out of danger, helping him scramble for cover, or whatever.

Too much? :smallwink:
Too much.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I always wanted mechanics for high-dexterity characters to help their allies by pushing them out of danger. So, without further ado, the Fixed Lighting Reflexes:

The second ability seems pretty solid on its own. You just increased the odds of passing solidly, then gave another small boost (+2) then gave the ability to protect allies on top of it. While there are certainly stronger feats, this one almost feels mandatory on high reflex characters.

[Mendicant]

What about being able to apply any reflex bonus above the DC to an adjacent ally affected by the same effect? It lets you make use of overflow, kind of like how Power Attack lets you spend overflow attack bonus.

[Dragonexx]

Lightning Reflexes: +3 to reflex saves. Gain evasion. If already have evasion, stacks to improved evasion.
Great Fortitude: +3 to Fort Saves. Gain DR/- equal to level/CR.
Iron Will: +3 will saves. If you succeed on a save against a mind-affecting effect, by spending an immediate action the creator of the effect is dazed for 1 round.

Magic Aptitude: +2 to your choice of knowledge (arcane, divine, nature, or psionic) and +2 umd. You may counter a spell as an immediate action. (**** spellcraft)
Agile: +2 balance and escape artist. Gain +20 to move speed.
Animal Affinity: +2 handle animal and ride. May speak with animals at will.
Athletic: +2 climb and swim. Immunity to fatigue. Effects that would make you exhausted leave you fatigued instead (but it can't be raised into exhaustion).
Deceitful: +2 disguise and forgery. If your disguise fails, you may make a bluff check against the noticer's sense motive to maintain it.
Diehard: If an attack would reduce you from positive hit points to negative hit points, you instead survive at 0hp. The range of negative hit points before you die increases 1/3 your maximum hp. You are automatically stable during this time, and may act normally, though you are still staggered and disabled.
Negotiatior: If you use diplomacy to improve the attitude of a creature, it improves by one step further (to a maximum of helpful).
Self-Sufficient: +2 heal and survival. You are immune to ingested poisons and can detect poison at will as an (ex) ability. Just by looking at something, you can tell if it's safe to eat or drink, or what effects will happen if you do so.
Stealthy: +2 hide and move silently. You have total concealment in areas of shadowy illumination. In areas of complete darkness you have regular concealment even against creatures with darkvision. You have darkvision out to 60ft.
Toughness: +3hp and an additional 1 hp per level. You have fast healing 1.
Persuasive: +2 bluff and intimidate. May use strength instead of Cha on intimidate. (Though I feel this should be a default rule).
Deft Hands: +2 sleight of hand and use rope. If you land a critical hit, you may steal one item from a target/make a free disarm attempt an pocket what you take.
Nimble Fingers: +2 disable device and open lock (for all it's faults, pathfinder at least had the right idea of melding these into one skill). [insert stuff about harvesting traps to do stuff]
Investigator: +2 gather information and search. By rolling a 16-20 on a gather information roll, you gain the benefit of an EX commune effect (single question) as a result of your own insight.
Acrobatic: +2 jump and tumble. Take a 5 foot step as an immediate action.

Just made these up in about 20 minutes.

[Mendicant]

Here is my current stab at this. I have varying levels of satisfaction with these, but before I do any more tinkering I'd like to get some feedback/critique on these. How powerful or useful are these, both in relation to each other, and to baseline good feats like Improved Initiative? Can you see yourself picking them?

I run primarily run Pathfinder E6, so these are built for Pathfinder. The fly skill at my table is completely subsumed by acrobatics and isn't represented here.

Great Fortitude
You get a +2 bonus on all Fortitude saving throws. You additionally gain all the benefits of the subsumed Endurance feat. If you are subject to a pain effect, or an effect that would paralyze, nauseate, or stun you, you may take 15 points of damage to ignore the effect for a number of rounds equal to your Fortitude save.

Lightning Reflexes
You get a +2 bonus on all Reflex saving throws and initiative checks. You may use an immediate action to grant an adjacent ally a +2 to bonus to a Reflex saving throw or to AC against a single effect or attack, but you take a commensurate penalty to Reflex saving throws and AC until the start of your next turn. You must make the decision to intervene before the effect or attack is resolved.

Iron Will
You get a +2 bonus on all Will saving throws. When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You continue to lose hit points and make stabilization checks as normal, and if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 additional point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.



Acrobatic
You gain a +2 bonus to acrobatics and escape artist checks. In addition, you may ignore 5 feet of difficult terrain per round, and you add any dodge bonus to AC as a bonus to acrobatics checks.

Alert
You gain a +2 bonus to perception and sense motive skill checks, and you may take 12 on initiative checks.

Animal Affinity
You gain a +2 bonus on handle animal and ride checks. You may make a DC 20 handle animal check to train a single animal that already obeys you, such as an animal companion or mount, in a feat that it meets the prerequisites for, as if you were teaching it a trick. Only one animal can enjoy the benefits of this training at a time, and you must be in regular contact with it--at least 24 hours per week--or it forgets the feat and must be retrained. You can retrain it into another feat at any time so

Athletic
You gain a +2 bonus on climb and swim skill checks, as well as grapple checks and acrobatics checks made to jump. You also gain the benefits of the subsumed Run feat.
(This is, in general, the kind of thing I'm aiming for

Persuasive
You gain a +2 bonus to diplomacy and intimidate checks. In addition, you may substitute your Strength modifier for your Charisma modifier on intimidate checks, and may stack intimidate checks with other sources of fear. Finally, you can make a DC 20 diplomacy check as a full-round action in order to grant an ally an additional saving throw against an ongoing compulsion, charm, or fear effect that they have already failed their saving throw against. They gain a +2 bonus if you beat the check by 5 or more. You must recognize that they are under such an effect before attempting the check.

Deceitful
You gain a +2 bonus to disguise and bluff checks. You also gain all the benefits of the Improved Feint feat, and may add your Charisma modifier to CMD.

Canny
Choose 3 skills from among the following: any craft, disable device, appraise, or profession. You gain a +2 bonus to checks made with these skills. You also gain +1 skill point per level, and your base price when selling items is 60% of their list price, rather than 50%.

Educated
Choose 3 skills from among the following: any knowledge, linguistics, or perform. You gain a +2 bonus to checks made with these skills. You also gain +1 skill point per level and a free language known.

Magic Affinity
You gain a +2 bonus to spellcraft and use magic device checks.
(No other bonus here, as of yet. Maybe ever. UMD is a great skill as it is, and I can't think of extra bennies for this that aren't just fat kisses for casters, who will be fine without them.)

Self Sufficient
You gain a +2 bonus to heal and survival checks, as well as to damage rolls against animals. In addition, you gain double the normal hit points from natural healing.
(Meh)

Stealthy
You gain a +2 bonus to stealth and sleight of hand checks. In addition, you may move your full speed when sneaking without penalty.



Swiftness
Your base speed increases by 10', you may follow an opponent that tries to take a 5' step away from you into the space they vacated as an immediate action, and you ignore 5' of difficult terrain per round.

Toughness
You gain +3 hit points, an additional hit point per level after 3rd, and DR 1/--. You automatically stabilize after dropping to less than zero hit points.

[weckar]

We once played around with the idea of Lightning Reflexes giving (on top its usual benefits) a scaling DEX bonus but only for the purposes of Combat Reflexes. Made the two 'Reflexes' feats synergetic.

[Dagroth]

I started doing a revamp/fix of Pathfinder feats here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?263019-Pathfinder-Feats-That-Don-t-Make-Me-Sad&p=14303085). It stalled on the sheer number of feats, and the feeling that players probably didn't want to read a 10+ page house-rule document, but I did go through the core ones. For the ones mentioned here:

Great Fortitude / Iron Will / Lightning Reflexes - Includes the Greater version (which gives a reroll 1/day).

I think this is good... though making the save bonus an additional +1 per 5 character levels seems good (making it +6 at level 20).

[Mordaedil]

I've given this quite a bit of thought, but I always struggle with the balancing aspect.

For Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will I've made it so that players who picked this feat, had their respective saving throws upgraded to be "good saves". Which means they end up at +12 at level 20 instead of +6. "What is the incentive for a character who already has good saves to pick them?" Well, they already have iron will, great fortitude and lightning reflexes. But if you must have more benefit, their respective good saving throws are given a boost at the same rate as a bad save. This puts them at +18 at level 20 to their good saves. This becomes a headache for multiclasses, I suppose.

For Stealthy, I always thought it just fair to give the benefits of Hide in Plain Sight. No reason to level-dip into Shadowdancer just for an ability you really want, here it is prepackaged into a feat that describes what you wanted to be.

The way NWN gives +1 to a save or AC for every 5 ranks you had in Spellcraft or Tumble respectively inspired me to have the feats give that benefit if you take them, in addition to instead of just giving bonus to skill points, the feats give skill ranks that can exceed the level restriction and allow the player early qualifications to certain prestige classes.

I also give some benefits to the feats disguised as other feats, so a player picking Persuasive also gets something like Intimidating Strike to get something useful in combat or the ability to Feint as a free action in combat.

Sine this is houseruling extreme, I don't feel particularly ashamed for doing this to the rules.

[Dagroth]

Being able to get HiPS at 1st level seems unbalanced, TBH...

I do like the Skill Focus & synergistic feats giving Skill Ranks that go over the cap rather than just bonuses.

[Mendicant]

I agree that HiPS is a bit much at first level, and I'm also very resistant to these feats replacing class features. It both makes the class a little less relevant, and it makes the feat a worse choice for someone of that class. A feat called "Stealthy" should be a good choice for a Shadowdancer or a Ranger.

[Flickerdart]

I agree that HiPS is a bit much at first level, and I'm also very resistant to these feats replacing class features. It both makes the class a little less relevant, and it makes the feat a worse choice for someone of that class. A feat called "Stealthy" should be a good choice for a Shadowdancer or a Ranger.

There are multiple types of HiPS. For example, shadowdancers can only HiPS while within 10 feet of a shadow, and rangers can only HiPS in natural terrain. A Dark creature has very poor HiPS - it cannot HiPS without cover or concealment, nor in daylight. We can treat Stealthy the same way that Uncanny Dodge treats copies of itself:

By default, it grants the ability to hide while being observed, but still requires cover/concealment (see Dark creature template).
If the user can already hide while being observed, it lets him do so without cover/concealment (see ranger's Camouflage).
If the user can already hide without being observed and without cover/concealment, it lets him remove some other restriction (any terrain, does not require shadows, etc).

[Mendicant]

There are multiple types of HiPS. For example, shadowdancers can only HiPS while within 10 feet of a shadow, and rangers can only HiPS in natural terrain. A Dark creature has very poor HiPS - it cannot HiPS without cover or concealment, nor in daylight. We can treat Stealthy the same way that Uncanny Dodge treats copies of itself:

By default, it grants the ability to hide while being observed, but still requires cover/concealment (see Dark creature template).
If the user can already hide while being observed, it lets him do so without cover/concealment (see ranger's Camouflage).
If the user can already hide without being observed and without cover/concealment, it lets him remove some other restriction (any terrain, does not require shadows, etc).


That's a good point. The Dark creature version is hardly game breaking at level 1, and the feat is relevant throughout. What do you think of my suggestion to roll in Fast Stealth? Would combining both that and HiPS be too much? I'm not getting any feedback on my list right now.

[CharonsHelper]

1. The save boosters are fine. I don't think anyone would take Lightning Reflexes - but that's just due to Reflex being the least valuable save. Iron Will is pretty sweet for martials, and Great Fortitude isn't terrible for arcane casters (they don't need many feats anyway). If you made them +4 or some such they'd be stupidly good.

2. +2/+2 feats making them class skills would do it - though that might make them a bit too good. Maybe drop them to +1/+1 and be class skills. (A bunch of Pathfinder traits give +1 and make a class skill - and a trait is supposed to be worth approx. 1/2 a feat. Though if you're talking 3.x - it's not a perfect match because class skills work differently.)

[Mendicant]

2. +2/+2 feats making them class skills would do it - though that might make them a bit too good. Maybe drop them to +1/+1 and be class skills. (A bunch of Pathfinder traits give +1 and make a class skill - and a trait is supposed to be worth approx. 1/2 a feat. Though if you're talking 3.x - it's not a perfect match because class skills work differently.)

I don't think making the skills class skills, especially in Pathfinder, would be all that good, but even if it was I really don't like design principle at work.

I regularly see the vast feat list cause option paralysis or annoyance from my players, especially newer ones. Descriptive feats like "Toughness" or "Acrobatic" ought to help cut through that. Don't want to parse what "Bend With the Wind" or "Robilar's Gambit" actually do? Don't want to plan out ten level's worth of feat chain right now? Your sneaky ninja guy you're playing can just take "stealthy" or "acrobatic." Unfortunately, those feats don't actually *do* much of anything for your ninja guy presently. Having them grant new class skills makes them even less intuitive: "Stealthy" isn't what you take when you're building a naturally stealthy character, it's what you take when you're building an unstealthy character and want him to be less of a liability. Ditto for "Iron Will" or the other save boosters.

A better way to build these feats is to expand them laterally--they still boost your saves or skills, (by the same, non-RNG busting amount) but they also open up new ways to *use* those skills, and they let you use surpluses for additional benefits. Think of what makes Power Attack good: it doesn't give a meleer attack bonus, a resource that is already pretty abundant for him. It instead lets him convert surplus attack bonus into damage.

[CharonsHelper]

I regularly see the vast feat list cause option paralysis or annoyance from my players, especially newer ones. Descriptive feats like "Toughness" or "Acrobatic" ought to help cut through that. Don't want to parse what "Bend With the Wind" or "Robilar's Gambit" actually do? Don't want to plan out ten level's worth of feat chain right now? Your sneaky ninja guy you're playing can just take "stealthy" or "acrobatic."

Yeah - the massive # of feats causing paralysis is basically the inherent customization = complexity. Though I do like the exception based system making play easier - though it arguably makes total system mastery a bit harder, you can at least play competently before then.



A better way to build these feats is to expand them laterally--they still boost your saves or skills, (by the same, non-RNG busting amount) but they also open up new ways to *use* those skills, and they let you use surpluses for additional benefits. Think of what makes Power Attack good: it doesn't give a meleer attack bonus, a resource that is already pretty abundant for him. It instead lets him convert surplus attack bonus into damage.

Have you checked out Pathfinder's skill unlocks from Pathfinder Unchained? That's basically what they do - though you can't take them until level 5, and most only get good enough to be worth taking at 10.

[Dagroth]

The thing you have to watch out for here is making the feats too good.

Changing Great Fortitude to +2 with an additional +1 every 4 levels makes it a good feat. Throwing Improved Toughness, Endurance & Die Hard onto it makes it almost a "must have" feat.

Rolling Weapon Specialization in to Weapon Focus makes it a good feat. Rolling Improved Critical (which is already considered situationally good) makes it almost a "must have" feat.

Changing Dodge to be +1 vs. everyone makes it a good feat, but has the affect of messing up many feats that rely on the "target of your Dodge Feat".

[Flickerdart]

The thing you have to watch out for here is making the feats too good.

Changing Great Fortitude to +2 with an additional +1 every 4 levels makes it a good feat. Throwing Improved Toughness, Endurance & Die Hard onto it makes it almost a "must have" feat.

Rolling Weapon Specialization in to Weapon Focus makes it a good feat. Rolling Improved Critical (which is already considered situationally good) makes it almost a "must have" feat.

Changing Dodge to be +1 vs. everyone makes it a good feat, but has the affect of messing up many feats that rely on the "target of your Dodge Feat".

Nah. All feats have an opportunity cost, and these improvements don't make the feats competitive with feats people actually take.

Your version of Great Fortitude is nice, and I certainly wouldn't object to taking it, but it doesn't do anything, and melees are feat-starved anyway, so I won't take it. Similarly, I would never bother with WF+WS+IC because I can just buy Keen and ignore the +1 to hit/+2 to damage.

For Dodge, +1 to AC is not a good feat, and you can always just add back the targeting mechanism for the feats that rely on it. Maybe if you gave them out for free (one every 3 levels) to people that took the improved Dodge, it wouldn't be a waste of a feat.

[Dagroth]

Thinking about this again...

I'd like to see feat chains be more like the Heritage Feats (only a little better than those, since those need to be improved too).

Avoidance Chain:
Dodge (Avoidance): +1 Dodge bonus to AC with an additional +1 Dodge bonus for every Avoidance feat (including this one, so this is effectively +2 to AC by itself).

Mobility (Avoidance): +2 Dodge bonus to AC vs. attacks of opportunity with an additional +2 Dodge bonus to AC vs. attacks of opportunity for every Avoidance feat you have (not including this one).
Requires: Dodge.

Spring Attack (Avoidance): +1 Damage to all attacks on any round you move more than 10' (including attacks of opportunity taken in the same round). +1 additional damage to all attacks on any round you move more than 10' for every Avoidance Feat you have (including this one).
Special: You may split your move into 10' increments between attacks if you have the ability to take more than one attack on a Standard Action.
Special: Your first 10' of move after an attack counts as retreating defense and does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Requires: Mobility, +4 BAB

Combat Expertise (Avoidance): +1 AC Bonus or +1 to-hit bonus when fighting defensively (fighting defensively gives -4 to hit, +2 AC). +1 additional AC Bonus or +1 additional to-hit bonus when fighting defensively for every Avoidance Feat you have (including this one).
Requires: Int 13+

More could be added... but having these four feats gives you +5 AC, +8 more AC vs. attacks of Opportunity, +5 damage on attacks when you move 10' (which would include charging) and potentially -4 to-hit +7 AC when fighting defensively.

[Mendicant]

Have you checked out Pathfinder's skill unlocks from Pathfinder Unchained? That's basically what they do - though you can't take them until level 5, and most only get good enough to be worth taking at 10.

Yeah, that's part of what I drew on when thinking about my own writeups above, and what I might go back to when reworking mine. As is, it's not really a rule system I can use, because I just don't often run games that go to level 10, and certainly don't go much beyond it. I need stuff that's cool and available in 6 levels, and I'd rather have benefits up front, I think.

That said, I've def played with skill rank and BAB based unlocks for feat chains. (IE Mounted Combat includes Ride-by attack at 3 ranks in ride and Spirited Charge at 5, or something like that. Generally with the assumption that Skill Focus provides 3 *ranks* and raises the cap by three.) Some of the unchained stuff feels like it shouldn't require a feat to unlock.